So many pages already!!!! I am afraid i can't read them all. At least not now.
I started reading the book yesterday. I haven't made good progress yet but i can safely say that i like it :nod:
Printable View
So many pages already!!!! I am afraid i can't read them all. At least not now.
I started reading the book yesterday. I haven't made good progress yet but i can safely say that i like it :nod:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
He was a rather mediocre sort of man and a bit pretentious, and I thought his limitations, although realized, frustrated him.
I don't mean that she did this on purpose, it was a subconscious sort of vibe I picked up. She was attempting to force the issue only considering the superficial aspects of some of the people, IOW, what she thought they should want and what she thought was appropriate for them, not how they really felt.Quote:
Well wouldn't that make her pretty malicious? I believe she believes that marriage and family, with all its issues, is a good and beneficial thing. I think that is supported by the feelings of loneliness that certain characters have, and that marriage and family are a means to minimze that loneliness. Now this stands in stark contrast to what Lilly believes, and perhaps it's up to us to assess what Woolf thinks herself, since she gives us two leading characters with opposing views.
Oh i can't wait to start reading. :D
I could have been projecting to some extent.
Wow, the posts got away from me, too and I want to read them all but don't have time now.Quote:
Originally Posted by manolia
manolia, I am so glad to see you here - you always make for good discussions! Stick with the book; I have read about 3/4 so far, and it gets better and the style is beautiful in the images and words. It goes pretty fast, when you get into the flow of the writing style. I probably won't post much until I am done reading. Too many other threads are calling to me and also real life.
Plainjane, I am glad you think that about Mrs Ramsey also.. I made that comment in class that I thought she wanted to get everyone married off because "misery loves company"
As for is Lily loves Mr Ramsey at the end.. I'm not sure about that... But it's interesting to think about... I know she loved Mrs Ramsey... She almost wanted to be like her... But their personalities were so different that would never be...
My opinion is that in the end of the book, we see Lily accepting Mr Ramsey for what he is and I think she then sees why Mrs Ramsey did love him (if in fact she did) Gees, it's all so very complicated...
Ah, life and love and time. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by middleyears
ahhhhh...yeah, indeed, 'life and love and never enough time!' :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Hello, everyone,
I come to this discussion late, having just noticed it, and having read the book some time ago. I won't try to define love /everyone can breathe now/ but I do remember, still, my earlier appraisal of their relationship, and one comment here sheds additional light on it, in my opinion. So I'll just post my thought without connecting it, because I don't think I have seen it explicitly presented. And please remember it is only one thought among all that you have already presented, that I have in fact read, so I am not presenting it as the 'answer' to all of the observations already made, even though it falls down here at the end.
What kind of marriage was this? When I read the book, I came away with the feeling that it was an arranged marriage in its later stages. In my imagination I see it as the result of a young woman being married, many years prior to the book, for reasons of position and prestige, to a man whom she didn't know well, or perhaps didn't even know at all, and whom she didn't start out loving at all. But it turned out that the marriage went well for her in a material sense, in that it brought her a good life, with servants, and well provided for. It needn't have done that. She could have been miserable her whole life in an arranged marriage, and she knew it.
As observed above, in this thread, her husband was a mediocre man. He was domineering. He could not control his temper and, finally, the pinnacle of his career was turning out to be somewhat shorter than he wanted it to be. He was stuck -- partway through the metaphorical alphabet -- without being able to complete his professional understanding up to where he wanted it to be, enfolding everything in a single grasp.
Entering into such a marriage, I believe she might have been pleasantly surprised at her comfortable arrangements and developed an affection, or certainly an appreciation, for her husband and what he provided for her life. But, mainly, I think she also had to learn how to cope, and especially how to "manage," his temperamental and irascible side.
We see her at the dinner table looking at her husband appraisingly, trying, I think, to imagine which way his emotions are going to take him and what sort of row or nastiness she might be going to have to handle and get back under control. When they go off arm in arm, that is part of her being pleasant to him, and perhaps genuinely affectionate, but also, and most important, bringing the situation back to a degree of politeness and normalcy. It is one of her techniques for keeping him in bounds. He craves for her affection, love and appreciation, and he knows that in some sense he has those things from her, and she knows he knows, because she knows she has those feelings for him and shows them. But -- the crux of the matter -- she also knows that she will not surrender to him, because otherwise the situation would become totally intolerable under his emotional and unstable domineering. So the only way she can manage him, and keep her head above water, so to speak, is to hold him at arms length and in a position of supplication and, perhaps tender, mutually acceptable subjugation. Perhaps he was much like an unruly child, with her having to take the position of a caring parent.
It is about control, as has been observed, and she is controlling him to preserve and protect the children from his harshness and meanness. I might more call it management rather than control, but she clearly sees his destructiveness in being glad to tell the boy that he likely won't be going to the lighthouse tomorrow, and that destructiveness was what she was protecting her children as well as herself against.
So did she love him? Perhaps, yes, in an appreciative or affectionate sense. Was she protecting herself from him. Definitely yes! Had she triumphed once again? Absolutely, as so many times before!
So, that's a convoluted thought for consideration here.
You know Walter, I had not looked at it in exactly that light, one of in a way self preservation on her part. I think that is exactly right. It makes good sense and fits perfectly with the time and place. I couldn't get past the actual event in the book and for some reason could not see it was a self/child protection device, but I absolutly agree.
I do wonder though if she'd given in on that point [of telling him] if it would have tamed him -- but more likely I think it would have made him more domineering. Sometimes it is difficult to know which way to go.
middleyears, You mention Lily loving Mrs. Ramsay, yes she did, and that is partially why I thought she turned to appraising Mr. Ramsay at the end, he was a strong connection to the past and Mrs. Ramsay. I wonder if she felt somehow that she would become Mrs. Ramsay...not in a creepy way, but IOW inhabit Mrs. Ramsay's life.
And lol, I usually think there is an element of spite in matchmaking. But I tend to be a bit cynical there....:D
Well, Plainjane, it has taken a long time for that picture to finally come together in my thoughts, long after reading the book and being totally baffled by that triumph. But it does seem to fit several of the 'odd' scenes and, in her place, I would not want to have risked giving in to him.Quote:
Originally Posted by plainjane
I'd still like to know what sort of 'mistake' someone had made, if I remember the word right. Might he have he found some new idea in his academic studies where he felt others had 'got it wrong.' Or just what was he talking about? Whatever it was, in the book it conveys again the sense of his blustery lack of control.
PS. I just absolutely loved the book! :)
Kudos to Walter! I liked very much the way you stated all of this. It finally puts into clear-cut words the ideas I have been toying with since I read the book. I too read the book several years ago and have just come back to a re-reading of it and find it better the second time around. I agree with all that you have said but consider the part about an arranged marriage probably not quite arranged, such as by parents, but rather a young not well thought marriage and not necessarily based upon love. When the Ramsey's would have married there were not so many opportunities for women and often they did not know well the man they chose as their spouse so I think the idea you have stated coincides with this idea of a young, inexperienced couple who marry. Love would come later, if it were to come.
Other than this, I think I see Mrs. Ramsey as the person who is relied on always to balance things and to keep the peace and although the Ramseys do fight and argue, she keeps a semblence of control over that situation; she keeps her husband in-check, otherwise the household would be total chaos.
I felt awhile back in my reading two things emerge - one someone has already mentioned or questioned. I felt as though Mrs. Ramsey did elude (several time) to having been infinitely happy at one time in her life, perhaps with another love, not her husband. I picked up on hints of this several places in the text but I am not equipped presently to quote those exact passages. After my reading I will try to locate them. There did seem to be a kind of longing for 'something/someone' in her past.
The second thought came to me about the ages of the Ramseys. He was about 60 and she in her 50's - not young anymore. I think at times, many times during the course of this story, Mrs. Ramsey is really tired, tired of keeping the peace and tired of keeping such a large family. Although she is very connected to her family, there is a sense of fatique and being burdened somehow, with the weight of it all upon her shoulders. Even to be cheerful and uplift the others is a great responsibility and perhaps the woman has had enough and feels she needs a rest from all the stress and tension, of keeping her husband in-check and her children happy and protected from her husband's tempor and rages and domineering ways. Mrs. Ramsey is only 'human' after all.
I think that Mrs. Ramsey's matchmaking thoughts are not so much a matter of 'misery likes company', but more an activity that can occupy her mind and give her something she will feel worthwhile about doing. Also, I think she is vicariously living through her children and the visitors, who are surrounding her, during the summer vacations at the house. This, too, is a control issue, don't you think? I don't think she truly feels she has complete control of her own family and husband all the time; with the matchmaking she can feel she exerts some control over others lives, basically an illusion, but she needs this to feel whole and worthwhile.
Like Walter already pointed out, it is the same with me. These are merely my own thoughts on the matter and my own opinions, but I thought at this point, it would be good to share them and add to the great post by Walter; thanks for taking the time to write all of that; it really makes it clear and lays the ideas out well.
Janine, thanks for the kind words. You, however, brought out so many more of the elusive subterranean layers that one can wonder about in this very complicated relationship which doesn't quite fit together on the surface. If one puts it in its time, and thinks of it perhaps as a specifically feminist work, then not only is Woolf showing us a dysfunctional marriage, but then also I can hear her voice saying loud and clear, "This is how I would have handled it!" That would make it a novel with a very powerful statement from the author.
Yes, I think you're right to say that Mrs. Ramsay does try to manage Mr. Ramsay, and I do think she is somewhat defensive with him. She particularly tries to defend the children from his oppressive neediness and sometimes cruelty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter
First, I don't know if Mrs. Ramsay is miserable; and, second, I don't know if her matchmaking is really motivated by malice. I think Mrs. Ramsay is quite comfortable in her marriage, and I think--in a way--Mr. Ramsay satisfies some of her important needs. Particularly, she needs Mr. Ramsay to give her direction, knowledge, or--more abstractly--truth. At the end of the first section Mrs. Ramsay wants Mr. Ramsay to speak. For a moment she begins to have doubt and she wants her husband to settle it. Woolf narrates, "Slowly it came into her head, why is it then that one wants people to marry? What was the value, the meaning of things? (Every word they said now would be true.) Do say something, she thought, wishing only to hear his voice. For the shadow, the thing folding them in was beginning, she felt, to close round her again. Say anything, she begged, looking at him, as if for help.Quote:
Originally Posted by plainjane
He was silent, swinging the compass on his watch-chain to and fro, and thinking of Scott’s novels and Balzac’s novels. But through the crepuscular walls of their intimacy, for they were drawing together, involuntarily, coming side by side, quite close, she could feel his mind like a raised hand shadowing her mind; and he was beginning, now that her thoughts took a turn he disliked—towards this “pessimism” as he called it—to fidget, though he said nothing, raising his hand to his forehead, twisting a lock of hair, letting it fall again.
“You won’t finish that stocking tonight,” he said, pointing to her stocking. That was what she wanted—the asperity in his voice reproving her. If he says it’s wrong to be pessimistic probably it is wrong, she thought; the marriage will turn out all right." (125). Mrs. Ramsay needs Mr. Ramsay to settle inner disputes for her; she needs his objectivity--his truth. In turn, Mr. Ramsay needs her beauty. He wants because she has a calm attractiveness that is unobtainable for him. Woolf writes, "But she knew that he had turned his head as she turned; he was watching her. She knew that he was thinking, You are more beautiful than ever. And she felt herself very beautiful" (125). This beauty is what attracts Mr. Ramsay, and that knowledge is what attracts Mrs. Ramsay. And, I believe this relationship makes them happy: some of the last words of the first section are, "Nothing on earth can equal this happiness" (126). As for her desire for other marriages, I think that is motivated by a desire to spread the idea of beauty that she has, and somehow overcome mortality which threatens to erase everything that Mr. and Mrs. Ramsay stand for. Through marriage she can continue in other people's lives--my other post was much more descriptive on this point.
Are you trying to say that Woolf is speaking her arguments through Mrs. Ramsay? That may be hard to prove. After all, it would not be a very feminist or modernist novel if it made Mrs. Ramsay the heroine. Mrs. Ramsay fully admits the superiority of Mr. Ramsay's mind and even enjoys his domineering nature. She does "triumph" over her husband in that she doesn't admit verbally that she loves him, but she only refuses him this because she lacks the communicative skills that she believes Mr. Ramsay is superior with. If Virginia Woolf is trying to make a feminist statement it doesn't seem reasonable that she would do it through Mrs. Ramsay. Mrs. Ramsay's death and the failure of the marriage she sets up seem a more powerful message than the manipulations that she employs. Also, I don't think that Mrs. Ramsay could be seen as overly positive because she is so Victorian. Her and Mr. Ramsay both have the Victorian ideals that had collapsed by the time Virginia Woolf was writing the novel. In fact, the marriage of truth and beauty that I talked about above is very strongly rooted in Victorian thought. Matthew Arnold, writing in the mid-nineteenth century, argued that people need to obtain a "harmonious perfection" between truth and beauty in order to create a perfect society. People needed to be weened from their natural inclinations to follow this perfection which he called "culture". In the same sense, we can see Mr. and Mrs. Ramsay working to this end with both each other and their children. Woolf, however, acts very critical to these kinds of ideas, and has these ambitions thwarted in To The Lighthouse. I wouldn't think she would do this to the Ramsays, and then try to voice her arguments through these characters. I think it's much more likely she would use a character like Lily Briscoe who is slightly detached and has a critical eye.Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter
I don't know if Mrs. Ramsay is bored or insecure. While on some subconscious level this may be true, I think the real reason that Mrs. Ramsay coerces couples to marry is to overcome her own doubts. Mrs. Ramsay is preoccupied by fears that nothing she does matters and that everything will pass away. This heightened sense of mortality causes her matchmaking because she believes she can live on through other couples--in some philosophical sense. We know--having read the second chapter--that, yes, these misgivings that Mrs. Ramsay has are justified, and we know--having read the third chapter--that her method of overcoming these problems is not a real solution.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
And, wow, 147 posts. Thanks everyone for getting in on this. When this thread started I thought that I would just be talking to myself.
Quark, Good to see you posting here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
Another thought came to me, when reading your post. In trying to control Mr. Ramsey's behavior or curb his anger, do you think this sets up a feeling, for Mrs. Ramsey, of resentment at times? It certainly would be an exhausting undertaking, day in and day out. I would think that somedays, she would feel hemmed in and trapped. Perhaps this is why she goes out so often to minister to poor families. It is an outlet and she feels needed and yet not 'bleed to death' by emotion - the poor families are distant/set appart, not close like a marriage relationship. Could this actually bring her some sense of selfworth and relief? This could apply to her matchmaking; it is merely a relief mechanism or an outlet for her frustrations.
I think you have brought out some very good points here. I think they do compliment each other and make up for the lack in each other's being - her beauty and grace and his brains and knowledge. It would be different if she had not stated how much she admired him and the same with he admiring her beauty. I do recall that statement standing out starkly in the novel "Nothing on earth can equal this happiness". How could that be thought or said if love did not exist between them? It might be a 'limited' type love in our eyes, but they have both adjusted in their own personal way to each other and lived together effectively for many years. I don't get the sense that their life together was miserable, at all. We are only seeing their older years; it might be at this time they feel thwarted or frustrated sometimes and voice this in their own minds and thoughts. Doesn't everyone have days like that occasional or during periods of their lives? Life and relationships are not fairytale perfect, afterall.Quote:
First, I don't know if Mrs. Ramsay is miserable; and, second, I don't know if her matchmaking is really motivated by malice. I think Mrs. Ramsay is quite comfortable in her marriage, and I think--in a way--Mr. Ramsay satisfies some of her important needs. Particularly, she needs Mr. Ramsay to give her direction, knowledge, or--more abstractly--truth. At the end of the first section Mrs. Ramsay wants Mr. Ramsay to speak. For a moment she begins to have doubt and she wants her husband to settle it. Woolf narrates, "Slowly it came into her head, why is it then that one wants people to marry? What was the value, the meaning of things? (Every word they said now would be true.) Do say something, she thought, wishing only to hear his voice. For the shadow, the thing folding them in was beginning, she felt, to close round her again. Say anything, she begged, looking at him, as if for help.
He was silent, swinging the compass on his watch-chain to and fro, and thinking of Scott’s novels and Balzac’s novels. But through the crepuscular walls of their intimacy, for they were drawing together, involuntarily, coming side by side, quite close, she could feel his mind like a raised hand shadowing her mind; and he was beginning, now that her thoughts took a turn he disliked—towards this “pessimism” as he called it—to fidget, though he said nothing, raising his hand to his forehead, twisting a lock of hair, letting it fall again.
“You won’t finish that stocking tonight,” he said, pointing to her stocking. That was what she wanted—the asperity in his voice reproving her. If he says it’s wrong to be pessimistic probably it is wrong, she thought; the marriage will turn out all right." (125). Mrs. Ramsay needs Mr. Ramsay to settle inner disputes for her; she needs his objectivity--his truth. In turn, Mr. Ramsay needs her beauty. He wants because she has a calm attractiveness that is unobtainable for him. Woolf writes, "But she knew that he had turned his head as she turned; he was watching her. She knew that he was thinking, You are more beautiful than ever. And she felt herself very beautiful" (125). This beauty is what attracts Mr. Ramsay, and that knowledge is what attracts Mrs. Ramsay. And, I believe this relationship makes them happy: some of the last words of the first section are, "Nothing on earth can equal this happiness" (126). As for her desire for other marriages, I think that is motivated by a desire to spread the idea of beauty that she has, and somehow overcome mortality which threatens to erase everything that Mr. and Mrs. Ramsay stand for. Through marriage she can continue in other people's lives--my other post was much more descriptive on this point.
I was not too sure about this statement of Walter's either, but I considered it a possibility. It is good to hear your 'take' on the whole idea. I don't know that much about Woolf's writings or her intentions in this novel. I have some commentary to review, when I finish reading my book (have 20 p. left). I found two good books at my library with a number of pages devoted to TTLH in each. I will read those and perhaps get a better understanding of just what Woolf intented here with the Ramseys and Lily B.Quote:
Are you trying to say that Woolf is speaking her arguments through Mrs. Ramsay? That may be hard to prove. After all, it would not be a very feminist or modernist novel if it made Mrs. Ramsay the heroine. Mrs. Ramsay fully admits the superiority of Mr. Ramsay's mind and even enjoys his domineering nature. She does "triumph" over her husband in that she doesn't admit verbally that she loves him, but she only refuses him this because she lacks the communicative skills that she believes Mr. Ramsay is superior with. If Virginia Woolf is trying to make a feminist statement it doesn't seem reasonable that she would do it through Mrs. Ramsay. Mrs. Ramsay's death and the failure of the marriage she sets up seem a more powerful message than the manipulations that she employs. Also, I don't think that Mrs. Ramsay could be seen as overly positive because she is so Victorian. Her and Mr. Ramsay both have the Victorian ideals that had collapsed by the time Virginia Woolf was writing the novel. In fact, the marriage of truth and beauty that I talked about above is very strongly rooted in Victorian thought. Matthew Arnold, writing in the mid-nineteenth century, argued that people need to obtain a "harmonious perfection" between truth and beauty in order to create a perfect society. People needed to be weened from their natural inclinations to follow this perfection which he called "culture". In the same sense, we can see Mr. and Mrs. Ramsay working to this end with both each other and their children. Woolf, however, acts very critical to these kinds of ideas, and has these ambitions thwarted in To The Lighthouse. I wouldn't think she would do this to the Ramsays, and then try to voice her arguments through these characters. I think it's much more likely she would use a character like Lily Briscoe who is slightly detached and has a critical eye.
Quark, this is good and explains it much better than I attempted to do.Quote:
I don't know if Mrs. Ramsay is bored or insecure. While on some subconscious level this may be true, I think the real reason that Mrs. Ramsay coerces couples to marry is to overcome her own doubts. Mrs. Ramsay is preoccupied by fears that nothing she does matters and that everything will pass away. This heightened sense of mortality causes her matchmaking because she believes she can live on through other couples--in some philosophical sense. We know--having read the second chapter--that, yes, these misgivings that Mrs. Ramsay has are justified, and we know--having read the third chapter--that her method of overcoming these problems is not a real solution.
Yes, by the time the summer months end, we should have a sizable number of posts. Good to see this much participation.:thumbs_up Keep posting everyone; the discussion is getting interesting!Quote:
And, wow, 147 posts. Thanks everyone for getting in on this. When this thread started I thought that I would just be talking to myself.
I don't mean flat out miserable all of the time, more in waves. I think there is an undercurrent of unhappiness, or maybe more accurately dissatisfaction in her marriage. More a 'what could have been' than out and out miserable. Comfort does not equal satisfaction or happiness. Yes he satisfies her material needs fairly well, but that is certainly not the most important aspect of a marriage. Don't get me wrong, I don't mean material things are unimportant, just not top dog.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
I disagree with that reasoning...I felt she refused him to keep a portion of herself to herself. IOW it was the one thing she could with hold and not be criticized about. Walter brought out her refusal was a protective tool and that makes perfect sense to me.Quote:
She does "triumph" over her husband in that she doesn't admit verbally that she loves him, but she only refuses him this because she lacks the communicative skills that she believes Mr. Ramsay is superior with.
I do not think she refused him due to any lack within herself.
Hi plainjane, I understand what you are getting at her. I think that when people get older many think to themselves "so it that all there is?" Everyone has some regrets and wonders what life would have been like having taken another path. I think this is what is going on with Mrs. Ramsey at this point in her life. I think Mr. Ramsey is feeling this as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by plainjane
I don't mean this unkind, but when you use abreviations like 'IOW' I don't really know what they mean. There may be others, from various countries, whose first language is not English and who also may not know that short hand. If possible, could you refrain from using abreviations so I fully understand your posts. I am not up on the latest shorthands for computer.Quote:
I disagree with that reasoning...I felt she refused him to keep a portion of herself to herself. IOW it was the one thing she could with hold and not be criticized about. Walter brought out her refusal was a protective tool and that makes perfect sense to me.
I do not think she refused him due to any lack within herself.
Probably you are correct in saying to withhold something from her husband such as the love declaration was the one thing he could not actively criticise her for. Perhaps, too, it was only at the moment that she could not answer him since she did not truly feel it. They say people who love each other often 'fall in and out of love'. She had been quite perturbed about him lately with the Lighthouse issue and James so maybe she just felt numb and unable to say anything back to him.