Hi Grace, welcome back. I am delighted to read your post today. I knew, given enough time, you would be able to get more interested in the book. I am happy to hear you will be finishing it. I think that by the end you will see that many things have changed or developed. For one thing, I have now noticed that Birkin no longer goes on his long tirades or preaching, which is rather refreshing. He has gone through a definite transformation. Also, many of his idea/thoughts have been explored by the others and there are some new opinions on what he has said. I keep thinking that Birkin, who represents Lawrence himself, puts the ideas out there in the first half or so of the book and then he becomes quieter and sits back and allows others to take his words and either criticise or consider them. It is interesting to me that Lawrence had the insight to do this. I think it rather brilliant actually. First one gives the ideas in speeches and then sits back and sees the consequences of his words either be rejected or actualized by the characters.
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Birkin is beginning to frustrate me a little bit here. He was very preachy and ended up falling into Ursula's arms anyhow toward the end of the chapter. He is very hard headed and it does kind of seem that even though he speaks out against humanity he is anxious and is still destined to fall into it...because he's human after all?? Ursula looks like she tries to understand, but maybe she levels him off just a little bit.
I answered some of this above. You are right though he falls into Ursula's arms by the end of the chapter, but all is still not right with them. As you said "he's human after all?" I do so agree. Birkin is not always completely definite about his theories or his philosophy on life. One has to understand that in the book he is developing them as he goes along. So at times he is floundering and trying to find the correct words to explain himself. I think this is why he goes on and on and sometimes seems to be going around in circles. He probably bores himself, as much as us with all his conceptualising but out of that comes some wonderful ideas. We may feel frustrated with him at times simply because he is actually feeling so himself, what do you think? Remember that all the characters in the book are not perfect; they are all human with flaws and weaknesses as well as strengths, confusions as well as confirmations.
*Warning - this may be a SPOILER for you: Ch. 23
I actually love this chapter when Ursula comes back at Birkin and tells him her mind. I don't want to spoil it for you, but it is quite significant I believe and no one has really addressed that chapter and the way things seem to happen for them. Finally, Birkin is quite speakless when Ursula takes a stand and challenges his ideas and preaching.
To your other questions it seems everyone has answered them so well.
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Originally Posted by
manolia
Oh i see..i haven't checked here in litnet to compare my book and see if it is the same 'version'. There are 3 versions of "Lady Chaterley's lover"?? I wonder which one i have. We can organise a reading of this book too. It would be fun if we could read it and discuss it simultaneously. But not now (i never read books of the same author in a row. I have certain un-written rules while i read and this is rule number 1 :lol: Perhaps next winter?)
Hi manolia, I came on to check the threads and said "WOW!", things were really progressing in the posts. Your post is great. Good answers for Grace.
Yes, I read that there are three versions - full versions - of LCL. I think they actually have different titles. It is funny, years ago I read the book and liked it. Then recently I found another copy and read it and thought - this seems different to me, somehow. I don't know if it truly is a different text, I read but some texts say the full-length uncut version - sort of like in films - you know - like Directors Cut.;) :lol: The book I read second time said this. I am experiencing this with WIL, but I read that book first over 30 yrs ago, so who knows? I may have just forgotten much of the plot. The book seems longer to me and more involved, but that also might be my own perception, since in the past few years I have the vision of the film version in my mind, which is quite trimmed down; even combines dialogue from certain scenes. It is a very good film, but I suppose one has to watch it without the book's plot totally in mind. Most of the ideas are there, but not as developed; a two hour film cannot capture all of this.
manolia, yes, definitely we will do LCL - next year would be great! I love the idea!:D
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Very helpful comments. I know about the roaring 20's (have seen many films :lol: ), but i didn't have this in mind when i read those passages, thanx Janine. And of course Gudrun is a bohemian artist, you are right Virgil (and hanging out with people like Pussum (very suggestive name Virgil ;) ) means that she somehow shared some of their qualities. And yes Ursula is a school ma (more calm and sweet and reserved).
:lol: I bet you have (referring to the films). Virgil said it is a little ahead of the 20's but I still think women's rights were being explored and people were being exposed to Freud and the Id concepts and Neizthe (sp?) and there was a sort of sexual upheaval at the time for women. Also the fact of Gudrun being a bohemian artist. Definitely that was significant. I am an artist so I know ;) just what that world encompasses. As Virgil said in his post Ursula has had her affair or relationship. She is wanting something more permanent in life. She is definitely "more calm and sweet and reserved" than Gudrun. The two sisters contrast nicely and realistically I believe. I have two sisters and I can relate to this. No I was not the wild one;) :lol:
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Yes, i have read some passages that insinuate that Gudrun is in fact jealous of Birkin's and Ursula's relationship and that she perhaps has begun to think differently concerning marriage..but i guess i'll see the whole picture towards the end.
I read this part also, and thought of posting along with my comments, but you know I was too tired to look up the chapter and the quote.:blush: Wasn't she at the mill at the time? She had been having tea with Ursula at Birkin's abode and she got domestic feelings and sort of envied her sister. She explored in her mind the possibility of marriage to Gerald, right? Wow, now that I am near the end of the book, that seems like eons ago.
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That's a good question. From what i gathered, Hermione is just pretending to be indipendant and modern. She just follows the trend but concerning Birkin and their long term sexual relationship, i am sure that she has marriage in her mind. Although she never admits it and pretends to be modern and easy going, the fact that she is trying to control his life shows that she regards him as belonging to her and her only. She strikes me as the type of woman who would do anything just to get married with the man she chooses. Isn't she thinking in the chapter "Woman to woman" (i think this is the ch) ,where she confronts Ursula, that she would submit entirely to Birkin if he only asked for it (or something to that effect, don't remember right now)?
Good observation, I agree totally in what you wrote here. Hermoine is such a phony, always pretending to herself and others.
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:nod: Yes i agree. Most authors tend to depict their era as being nicer and purer than it actually is.
They do - even as far back as Thomas Hardy, and he told the truth and was chastised for it; for instance in "Jude the Obscure". Also, I have to think that divorce in Hardy's time was pretty much forbidden and in Lawrence's time was still scorned and looked down on. If one could not get a divorce then, they eloped and lived together or else the woman went to lovers to find any bit of human comfort; it was not just sex, I believe. Virgil pointed out that Lawrence, himself, ran off with another man's wife (his professors' to be exact). She had three children and left them behind. All sound terribly cruel but actually the husband would not give her a divorce, she was shunned by society for leaving him, even though it was a dead marriage. Her children, the husband used as pawns, legally keeping them from her. Basically, it was like that. If one happened to fall in love and leave the marriage it was not like today with lawyers and joint-custody and quick divorces. Woman were crucified, if they were the ones to leave. So woman began to seek more equality and rights of their own - even sexual, so to Gundrun she belonged to this newer society of thought.
Since you came to the chapter where they are spending the holiday at the hostile in the mountains, don't you see a more relaxed atmostphere - the people are much freer and expressive, as compared to the stiff proper society of England. One section they even discuss England and how different it is. The dance seems to be significant to me, in showing how unreserved, unihibited the Europeans are.
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Hi Grace!
My interpretation for this interesting event is that Gudrun is falling in love with Gerald and her world is turning upside down. Gudrun being a wild tiger revolts to the idea and has these moments of hate towards Gerald. For some further explaination on why Gudrun behaves like that you might want to check a few pages back in the thread and also the above posts of Janine and Virgil. The expanations they gave about Gudrun's morals and the historical background is part of the answer to what you ask.
I fully agree, and also that she seems to be living up to her names reference and image. Gudrun feels dangerous to me at this point and agressive. Gerald mades a remark that she struck the first blow and he will strike the last - I did not look up the quote, but didn't it go something like that? I think the blow was a sort of signal and 'prophetic' of the challenge, between them, that will most definitely ensue.
Quote by Virgil
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To be honest, that is the reason I have always been so-so on this novel, that is Birkin's likability. I can't see why anyone really would like him, but the other ladies here disagree. So it just may be my perception.
Virgil, I would not expect you to like him. You are a man. ;) But seriously, you have more the engineering type mind and so why would Birkin appeal to your sensibilites? Maybe by the end you may like him a bit more, who knows? Think you may be outnumbered on this one. This discussion has only your male ideas to counterbalance us - the females. Poor Virg - uneven odds again! :lol: How do you put up with all us women folk - don't answer that - you know you love it!:)
But you know I do wonder, do we have to actually 'like' any of the characters in a novel to like the novel?
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Well, I think you would have to assume that it comes out from her subconscious. It also symbloizes the self-destructive nature not just of Gudrun but of gerald who I think actually gets turned on by it.
Very well stated. I agree.
But, Virgil....what...that word 'subconscious'.... comes up again. You just can't seem to help yourself using that word...:lol:;) :lol:
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Yes, Woman To Woman was the chapter and i found that a great chapter. So intense the conflict between the two ladies! Yes, Hermione believes she would submit, but i think we can tell from her personality that it would never happen. She would dominate and control.
Definitely!
