The puzzle of Beethoven's Kochs!

Alternative Title: The Manufactures of Beethoven and Goethe (In continuation of http://www.online-literature.com/for...ad.php?t=46636 The Manufacture of Mozart)

This is an open invitation to all musicloving readers to participate in solving the title's puzzle

IE

to find the identity of the franciscan monk "Wiilibald Koch" said to have taught piano to Beethoven sometime before 1781, his possible family link to his contemporary lexicographer Heinrich Christoph Koch (a musicology puzzle himself), or to the other many Beethoven related Kochs, a family owning a high class tavern known as the Zehrgarten in Bonn run by the widow Koch(Anna Maria),around 1790,where the Beethovens used to dine or his/their link to a highly admired (Weimar, Leipzig, Hamburg and Vienna) theaterman, Gottfried Heinrich Koch (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Gottfried_Koch) or, finally his/their eventual link to a "Samuel von Cocceji (ursprünglicher Name: Koch oder Cocq)".

Clue:

A letter by Ludwig's brother quoted herebelow

to the publisher Johann André in Offenbach:
Vienna, 23 November 1802
Dear Sir:
We have received your letter asking for some of my brother's pieces, for which we thank you very much.
At the moment we have nothing but a symphony and a grand piano concerto, each priced at 300 florins.[5] If you should want three piano sonatas I shall have to have 900 florins for them, all in Viennese currency, and these you cannot have immediately, but one every five or six weeks, as my brother doesn't bother much any more with such trifles, but writes only oratorios,[6] operas, etc.[7]
We would expect eight copies of any piece you might print. In any case, whether you care for the pieces or not, please answer, because otherwise I would be delayed in selling them to somebody else.
We also have two adagios for violin with complete instrumental accompaniment[8] which would cost 135 florins, and two little easy sonatas of two movements each which are yours for 280 florins. Please give my best wishes to our friend Koch. Your most humble
K. v. Beethoven
R. k. Treasury Official[9]

Note: Johann André relates to the creation of Mozart myth having "collected" the greatest part of Mozart's correspondence following his 1791 "death". See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Andr%C3%A9

Prize: The winner may chose between a box of turkish delight or a bottle of greek ouzo!

Good luck.

Any link between Herr Willibald Koch (organist of the Franciscans at Bonn) and Gioacchino Cocchi would certainly be of interest. Especially since Gioacchino Cocchi died on 11th November 1796. The letter you have quoted dates from 1802.

For the record, the Koch family are known to have been organ builders for centuries. In Moravia and Eastern Europe.

Perhaps more interesting is one F.X. Kuhac (Koch). Croatian musicologist and music critic. (1834-1911). He pointed out the Croatian origin of several of Beethoven’s and Haydn’s themes -

‘Beethoven i hrvatske narodne popover’ - Beethoven and his use of Croatian folksongs‘, Prosvjeta, ii (1894), 17–19

Frankly, I do not see any link between G. Cocchi (d.1796) and the organist Koch associated with early Beethoven. But maybe you can surprise us. I do not rule it out but it seems unlikely for the above reason.

In my opinion there were different branches of the Koch family. Not just one. Who were musically active over centuries. Unless you have hard evidence that the Koch of Bonn was one and the same person as G. Cocchi I don't see any progress on this issue. I remain convinced we are talking here of a network of composers, editors, publishers and propagandists. This is as true of Mozart as it is of early Beethoven. Since they shared the same patrons etc.

Anyway, you might tell us if you have some information. As I will do the same.

Regards

Here is an entry from the website of the Beethovenhaus museum in Bonn -

In autumn 1792 Beethoven left his hometown Bonn to move to Vienna. On his departure his friends presented him with a Stammbuch (farewell album). The second album belonged to Babette Koch, who later became Countess Belderbusch, with whom Beethoven was closely associated in his youth. It is bound in blue silk and contains 41 entries. These albums form an important addition to the few documents pertaining to Beethoven's youth in Bonn.

http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/si...tail.php/35591

And here is a painting of Babette Koch (1771-1807). She was therefore around the same age as Beethoven himself at the time when that album was made.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Babette_Koch.jpg

Belderbusch of Anna Barbara, nee Koch (June 28th 1771 in Bonn, † November 25 1807) was a childhood friend of Ludwig van Beethoven and the wife of Anton Maria Karl von Belderbusch.

Babette named Anna Barbara Koch, came from the host family of the inn on the square Zehrgarten of Bonn, which included also a small bookstore. Many guests were students at the Rheinische Friedrich-Wilhelms University, Bonn, as well as members of the * reading society*, including Ludwig van Beethoven, with whom she had friendly relations. June 1802 married Count Anton Maria Karl von Belderbusch and lived with him at Castle Miel. Sie verstarb 1807 bei der Geburt ihres vierten Kindes. She died in 1807 at the birth of her fourth child.

Of people and life in Bonn, at the time of the young Beethoven and Babette Koch Belderbusch. Neue Forschungserkenntnisse . New research findings. In: Bonner Geschichtsblätter 23/1969 . In: Bonner Geschichtsblätter 23/1969. S. 51-121. P. 51-121.
Max Braubach (Hrsg.): Die Stammbücher Beethovens und der Babette Koch . Max Braubach (ed.): The stock books of Beethoven and Babette Koch. Bonn 1995, ISBN 3-88188-008-9 . Bonn 1995, ISBN 3-88188-008-9.
Josef Niesen: Bonner Personenlexikon . etc.

//

We know for certain the Bonn Reading Society was an Illuminatist meeting place. That Waldstein and others (noted patrons of the young Beethoven) were associated with it, as was the Bonn music publisher Simrock, and also Ch. G. Neefe. So that the Koch family moved in those circles. And that there is clear evidence of British aristocratic support for the Bonn elector coming from England. Then we also know that Beethoven's family were financially helped by the British through George Cressner, the British representative to Bonn around the time of Beethoven's childhood.

When we reduce these things to their most basic state, we are left with the fact that the 'secularisation' of those times, culturally, involved patronisation from within the Holy Roman Empire and also from elites of the British mercantile empire of the musical careers and reputations of Haydn, Beethoven and also Mozart.

Later still was association in Bonn with Mozart's career through numerous fraternal people. Including Baron Knigge. (Who, we know for sure, was patronised financially - and his father before him - by the royal family of England). This is the same Baron Knigge who is credited with writing the first German text of 'Le Nozze di Figaro' (later published at Bonn by Simrock). Or, at least, his daughter. Though this too is disputed.

//



//

You'll never solve any puzzle like this, halfheartedly and at a loss whom or what to trust, what's right, what's wrong.

Before touching Weimar's "Cocqs"-a prerequisite for any beginner's initiation-check, verify and confirm:

a)Cocchi's year of death: 1796, you say but there are certain trustworthy sources online who claim he died post 1804 (following my relative wrong input some three years ago) and your source is "Grove", hah-hah.
Cocchi (or a younger brother perhaps but on a 10% propability) died 1819 in Vyborg.

b)"Belderbusch", who is included in the french lexicon of famous aliases (the book's actual title fails me but it pops up when you google for the name), Caspar Anton von der Heyden genannt Belderbusch (* 5. Januar 1722 in Montzen; † 2. Januar 1784 auf Schloss Miel bei Bonn) war Deutschordensritter und Premierminister in Kurköln ......and another alias of Cocchi, but we'll leave that lie a while, along with the missing "Koch leaves", the mysterious music autographs"!!

c)Organ builders family, as you rightly say, but the first "Kochs" came to Bohemia from Mugello, Tuscany (and some other Cocchis from Livorno), all florentine Cocchinis-Caccinis, bringing their instruments and music archives along!

d)Anyone remotely associated with music may easily link and identify Heinrich Christoph Koch to/as Rousseau, Gluck, Grimm, Philidor and many other "etceteras" since "they" all shared the same revolutionary-reformist new opera theories and furthermore musicology today totaly, absolutely and miserably fails to explain the broad and deep opera music knowledge of any and all the above. There are countless indications of "their cooperation" in specific operas, some of which have already been highlighted. Their use of winds and later flute introduction (look for relative Koch museum-items, specificaly a 10 or 14 Horns-Harmonica combination) are other strong indications. The french (Caussin or Cochin)are well known still as violin manufacturers.

e)We already discussed Knigge and his relations to "Saint Germain" and the german Illuminati (as we did Goethe's relations to von Gleichen-Russwurm) and I'll certainly not discuss "Mozart's" Figaro again.

All the above are neccessary only in the absence of an "all aliases mastertimeline" which confirms, beyond reasonable doubt, that Cocchi, omnipotent and tireless indeed, is the father of "modern european opera", his (Gluck's) operas the grandchildren of Giulio Caccini's Novela Musica and Orpheo!

"Love never dies", as the phantom now claims, but, instead of a prize, I'll have to charge you a fee if you keep on asking for guidance.

BTW There propably was one and only Waldstein: "Mine", ie Casanova's/Myslivecek's, ie "Koch" Cocchi who was provided a cover (as Waldstein serving in India etc) when his biography was written, much later.

Yanni,

I am not trying to solve any 'puzzle' about Koch. You are. Because you invented the puzzle yourself.

I have taken the time to give you some information about Koch, inn-manager in Bonn. Who was friendly with Beethoven's father. Whose daughter was friendly with the young Beethoven.

So it's less than 24 hours and you have again invented another alias.

Because you believe the Franciscan monk in Bonn (also named Koch) was the same person as Gluck. Alias Rousseau. Alias Baron Grimm. etc.

So now there are no less than two Kochs in Bonn. Both of these (we assume) aliases of the same person. The organist at Bonn, Willem Koch. And he is a different person from Koch, the inn manager at Bonn, isn't he ? Or is he still another alias ? Why use the name of Koch if he wishes to hide his 'alias' (Cocchi) ? Why not 'Smith' or something else. It gets more silly by the minute.


I tried to help you with the above information. And now I'm a little busy. Believe as you please. You have no information any of these people were G. Cocchi (alias Rousseau, Gluck, etc etc etc etc).

If you find any information on the third Koch, the musicologist who published a book on contemporary music in 1793 (also another alias ?) do let us know. Because this is silly. G. Cocchi died in Venice in 1796. His wife had died some years earlier. The grave site is still there in Venice and can be seen. In fact, an inscription marks the place in the church (of S Giovanni Grisostomo) where he and his wife lie buried, close by the theatre where he made his Venetian début. Honest ! Would you like a picture of it ?

And here are lots more Kochs - (no doubt further 'proof') -

Christian Julius Andreas KOCH [Parents] was born on 14 Nov 1809 in Dassensen now Einbeck. He died on 15 Feb 1882 in Dassensen now Einbeck. He was buried on 18 Feb 1882 in Dassensen now Einbeck. He married Friederike Johanne Louise Hedwig NÜSSE on 6 May 1838 in Dassensen now Einbeck.

Friederike Johanne Louise Hedwig NÜSSE [Parents] was born on 13 Nov 1813 in Dassensen now Einbeck. She died on 5 Mar 1865 in Dassensen now Einbeck. She married Christian Julius Andreas KOCH on 6 May 1838 in Dassensen now Einbeck.

They had the following children:

F i Johanne LOUISE Wilhelmie KOCH was born on 26 Jun 1838 in Dassensen now Einbeck.
M ii Heinrich Carl Christian WILHELM KOCH was born on 17 Dec 1840 in Dassensen now Einbeck.
M iii CHRISTIAN Friedrich Wilhelm Ludwig KOCH was born on 6 Oct 1842. He died on 3 Apr 1925.
M iv August CARL Ludwig KOCH was born on 27 Oct 1844 in Dassensen now Einbeck.
F v Johanne Wilhelmine Louise Charlotte KOCH was born on 13 Dec 1846 in Dassensen now Einbeck.
M vi Ernst August Wilhelm KOCH was born on 20 Feb 1849 in Dassensen now Einbeck. He died on 24 Apr 1849 in Dassensen now Einbeck.
M vii Heinrich Wilhelm Ernst AUGUST KOCH was born on 27 Mar 1851 in Dassensen now Einbeck. He was buried on 24 Feb 1883 in Dassensen now Einbeck.
F viii Johanne Louise FRIEDERIKE KOCH was born on 11 Aug 1854 in Dassensen now Einbeck.


/

You miserly failed to comment in detail to my points and, as expected, selected to focus on the wrong Coqs exclusively, trying deperately to avoid the evident size of whole issue that will haunt -mainly british written-18th cent "history" for ever.

Furthermore you still exhibit the same diversifying tactics in a very unwellcome and crude manner failing to add to your "other Kochs", "botanist" Wilhelm Daniel Joseph Koch, for obvious reasons:

(March 5, 1771 - November 14, 1849) was a German physician and botanist from Kusel, a town in the Rhineland-Palatinate.

Koch studied medicine at the Universities of Jena and Marburg, and afterwards was a Stadtphysicus (state physician) in Trarbach and Kaiserslautern (1798). In 1824 he became a professor of medicine and botany at the University of Erlangen, where he remained for the rest of his life. At Erlangen he was also director of its Botanical Gardens. In 1833, he was elected a foreign member of the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences.

He best known written work was a treatise on German and Swiss flora titled Synopsis florae germanicae and helveticae (1835-37). Another noteworthy publication of his was Catalogus plantarum florae palatinae (Catalogue of Palatinate Flora) (1814).

The plant genus Kochia from the subfamily Chenopodioideae is named after him. (Wiki).

A pitifull fool's performance cannot go on forever: Get lost!

Yanni,

You theory is half-baked. You have succeeded in confusing everyone who has come in contact with it.

So now we have 3 Kochs. One is an organist in Bonn. Another is a hotel manager (whose daughter was friendly with the young Beethoven). And a third is a musicologist who, in 1793, wrote a work on contemporary music.

Not forgetting Wilhelm Daniel Joseph Koch (botanist) who was born in 1771. Was he Gluck also ? And Rousseau ? And Baron Grimm ? And G. Cocchi ?

One tries, hard, to understand what you are actually saying. And, having tried, one retires to ponder on the workings of your mind in respect of Cocchi and the rest of the universe.

The 'wrong' Kochs were refered to ? But they were introduced by you, weren't they ?

'I who was once lost........'

JSB
Cantata 39

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbywK...eature=related

And finally, since you no longer welcome discussion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyCTY...om=PL&index=60


Regards

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yanni

You miserly failed to comment in detail to my points and, as expected, selected to focus on the wrong Coqs exclusively, trying deperately to avoid the evident size of whole issue that will haunt -mainly british written-18th cent "history" for ever.

Furthermore you still exhibit the same diversifying tactics in a very unwellcome and crude manner failing to add to your "other Kochs", "botanist" Wilhelm Daniel Joseph Koch, for obvious reasons:

(March 5, 1771 - November 14, 1849) was a German physician and botanist from Kusel, a town in the Rhineland-Palatinate.

Koch studied medicine at the Universities of Jena and Marburg, and afterwards was a Stadtphysicus (state physician) in Trarbach and Kaiserslautern (1798). In 1824 he became a professor of medicine and botany at the University of Erlangen, where he remained for the rest of his life. At Erlangen he was also director of its Botanical Gardens. In 1833, he was elected a foreign member of the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences.

He best known written work was a treatise on German and Swiss flora titled Synopsis florae germanicae and helveticae (1835-37). Another noteworthy publication of his was Catalogus plantarum florae palatinae (Catalogue of Palatinate Flora) (1814).

The plant genus Kochia from the subfamily Chenopodioideae is named after him. (Wiki).

A pitifull fool's performance cannot go on forever: Get lost!

---

Why did you fail to mention Prussia's (Frederick the Great's) chancellor, Samuel Cocceji, and "his son", theater manager Gottfried Heinrich Koch (ie Carl Ludwig Cocceji, years ago identified as "Comte de Saint Germain" elsewhere)?

Was their link to Caspar Anton von der Heyden genannt Belderbusch (* 5. Januar 1722 in Montzen; † 2. Januar 1784 auf Schloss Miel bei Bonn)....Deutschordensritter und Premierminister in Kurköln not obvious enough or, on the contrary, too obvious for you to research or at least repeat and hence highlight?

There is no other "valid method" to establish the identities of his aliases (he was powerfull enough to have all church registers altered- he owned churches- and there is evidence he did, faking most of his marriages and all of his deathes but one) but a detailed timeline!

The more aliases are added to my list (after testing them in my mastertimeline) the easier it gets for any sincerely interested researcher to dispute them by proving anyone's presence at a different time-place than any other of Cocchi's aliases.

Go ahead and do it (but you repeatedly chickened out my pevious re calls, didn"t you?) or verschwinde!

Well, I did try.

Best wishes with your family history research. It seems to get more complicated by the moment. Anyway, I've given my opinion.

Regards

On the contrary, the initiative you took, to participate in this site because of my threads on Cocchi and the relative debate that followed forced me to address his music side -that I had rather neglected previously as of secondary importance-and was thus able to "simplify" and complete my relative research irrespectively of your expressed opinions and whatever motives.

Very few people indeed would today dare suggest current-even!-politics, diplomacy and secret services may be "simply" explained and, until you came along, there has been noother on record, ever (except perhaps "Foucault's pendulum" author), who made it (simplicity) a prerequisite in solving two, at least, major 18th century puzzles, those of "Le comte de Saint Germain" and "The phantom of the Opera", both highly political, diplomatical and.....secret!

Saint Germain is rumored to have used some 1000 aliases and I really never counted how many I have discovered thus far, many because of you (acting as the bear). I'll propably open an aliases-list thread shortly herein.

My compliments for being so instrumental in solving most other 18th cent music mysteries as well, along with your "manufactured Mozart".

I do thank you and best of luck with your simple book!


Furthermore, addressing all "Koch" genealogy researchers: I am willing to accept a modest bet, say 500 EUR, that the "widow" Koch of Vienna, Anna Maria, was one of Cocchi's-Koch's wives (posssibly Gluck's Maria Anna Bergin), that Daniel Koch, the botanologist, one of his (von Gleichen's) sons and that he (Bonn's "late" Koch) was the same man as Wiilibald Koch, von der Heyden-Belderbusch, lexicographer Heirnich Christoph Koch and Weimar's theaterman Gottfried Heinrich Koch. The bet will still be valid and settled even in the case of a Cocchi brother among them.

My Regards and best wishes to all, including all music loving american Kochs :Angel_anim:, needless to say!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Musicology

Well, I did try.

Best wishes with your family history research. It seems to get more complicated by the moment. Anyway, I've given my opinion.

---

Yanni,

The entire history of mankind has been the search for and the discovery of (or the rejection of) its underlying and fundamental simplicity. A court may wade through a ton of evidence to find and establish the truth of a matter. But, when it finds it, and when it establishes it there is the truth before them.

The difference between the things men invent and that which is real, is that all man makes within his world becomes ever more complicated, while all we discover of creation (which is the context within which his rebellion is made) is seen to be ever more elegantly simple. So simple our process of searching begins all over again to find yet more simplicity. Since human nature resists reality.

I cannot agree our method should be one of complexity. It should be one of simplicity proving, over and over again, that it, simplicity, is the only method we can sensibly use when we are navigating through this complicated (man-made) world in which we live.

Best wishes. I will not bet with you on Cocchi and the Bonn innkeeper's daughter. I say instead you might, in a moment of simplicity, focus on her, and establish what is simple about her in respect of the subject that engages your time and talents. Since that simplicity would certainly be worth you and I knowing. And sharing. For sure.

Regards

In your search for simplicity you propably never met a Terese from Missolonghi, an alleged widow who has stolen my heart and mind long ago, so go ahead and ask for yourself the hand of Bonn inkeeper's daughter, Babette Koch, from her godfathers, famous musicoilogists today in USA!

Alternatively you may indulge in reading "North German opera in the age of Goethe" by Thomas Baumann, to learn everything required "Ueber die Kochische Schauspielergesellshaft" and their repertorio (or shall I say repertoire?) the unexpected loss, Jan, 1775, of their manager Koch (who had a flare for tragedy but preferred comic opera for his german audience-and , from another source, a ballet master brother*-husband of Franziska) and his wife, Franziska Koch, a famous singer of her time who drowned her sorrow to sing then (in tune but on and off only) with Wieland and Benda "Romeo and Juliette" and "Alceste", the first german opera seria. Gluck is also frequently mentioned in this book but there is no apparent relation to Mme Koch or Wielands "Alceste" whatsoever.

When finished, you may then Google for "Goethe+ Koch" to find the roots of sturm und drang (et tu, Johann Georg Hah-hah Hamman?)and "Doctor Faustus"-Koch who taught Goethe history and constitutional law in Strassburg (a few elementary lessons only I fear)....besides elementary music and drama as well.

As simple as that (excepting composer Anton Schweitzer-as swiss as Gaspard, yes!-whose extensive and well sourced biography may trouble you for a while http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton_Schweitzer)

....and, btw, "Carl Ludwig Cocceji", Bohemia's president, was very much alive in 1802 and celebrated his 50 year service jubileum.

Here is a what he looked like then: http://www.peusshares.com/aukdo/AukD...379&id1=639267

Good luck, best regards..and Please give my best wishes to our friend Koch ("letzter version" below). Your most humble :Angel_anim:

http://de.wikisource.org/w/index.php...&oldid=1002644 (Version vom 14. März 2010, 05:46 Uhr UTC)


*Gasparo Angiolini or "Giuseppe Canziani", known also as a composer, already identified by Yanni as another "Cocchi" in previous posts. An Angiolini, his son or perhaps his nephew Pietro, a choreographer(+1830), sold some Casanova writings to Brockhaus around 1820.



:driving:

From my perspective (as a reader of your posts) the difficulty is not in the mechanical collection of individual bits of information on people named Cocchi, or even their association with the cultural/musical world of the 18th century. It is to distill this information in to a coherent account of how, if at all, this has any bearing on the lives and careers of the real Beethoven and Mozart. Since an intensive study of a family named 'Brun' or 'Schmidt' could achieve similar results. And, as you say yourself, if a man uses dozens, even hundreds of pseudonyms your task becomes ever more complicated, and not less so.

Therefore, I suggest (and already have) you should focus, if you can, on the connections between the Cocchi's of early Beethoven's time. Those associated with his early career. So that we might see from you, Yanni, a rare and useful report on their role in the life and career of, say, Beethoven, or Mozart. But, outside of that, the subject has no interest for me personally.

Regards

On second thoughts, reader of my posts (what happened to musicology I wonder?), you did earn your turkish delight afterall!

As soon as I finish "The founder of Neoclaccisism", "The real Rousseau", "The real comte de Saint Germain", "How a Francogerman alliance created USA", "Raynal's Napoleon and v.v" and "What Casanova had in mind when chosing this specific alias" (to name but a few at random) I'll then come back to the manufacture of your Mozart, Beethoven and Goethe, as required, for sure!

Or shall I perhaps resurrect Tolstoy to rewrite his lethargic War and Peace?

:smilielol5::smilielol5: (Brun and Schmidt)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Musicology

From my perspective (as a reader of your posts) the difficulty is not in the mechanical collection of individual bits of information on people named Cocchi, or even their association with the cultural/musical world of the 18th century. It is to distill this information in to a coherent account of how, if at all, this has any bearing on the lives and careers of the real Beethoven and Mozart. Since an intensive study of a family named 'Brun' or 'Schmidt' could achieve similar results. And, as you say yourself, if a man uses dozens, even hundreds of pseudonyms your task becomes ever more complicated, and not less so.

Therefore, I suggest (and already have) you should focus, if you can, on the connections between the Cocchi's of early Beethoven's time. Those associated with his early career. So that we might see from you, Yanni, a rare and useful report on their role in the life and career of, say, Beethoven, or Mozart. But, outside of that, the subject has no interest for me personally.

Regards

---

Yanni,

If an obscurantist is awarded a Nobel Prize I will write to complain bitterly against that decision - showing by your numerous posts they are ignoring your own prodigious talents in that field.

:yesnod:

Your bitterness will go away soon as you taste the prize you rightly won!

It's time you get busy checking and rewriting your http://www.italianopera.org/articoli...CONCERTI.html: Most if not all of your "unknowns" have disappeared (via Carl Ludwig Cocceji-Belderbusch and his absolutely revealing -for me as well-relations to elector Max Frantz among other).

"Carl Luwig Cocceji-Belderbusch" fully explains Beethoven's as well as Luchesi's devotion and indebtness to him eversince Maximilian Friedrich's office as Kurkoeln Elector.

(As Thayer reports) "...he was a good-natured, friendly man who left it to his minister, Kaspar Anton von Belderbusch, to reduce expenses and to turn the Electorate of Cologne into one of Germany's most flourishing states".

Beethoven's grandfather Ludwig was his choice for Kappelmeister in 1761.

Does Cocceji-Belderbusch fit my "all aliases mastertimeline" for the specific year?

With Calzabigi's , Luchesi's, Leopold Mozart's etc, assistance it does, as follows:

1761

Cocchi's Tito Manlio 7.2.1761 London KT

Hennin* a Saint Foix Varsovie, 10th Feb 1761

Februar: Waffenstillstand zwischen Preußen und Russland, im Mai verlängert bis 27. 5.

In February 1761 Ranieri Calzabigi, a friend of the adventurer Giovanni Giacomo Casanova*, visited Vienna. His libretto for Orfeo ed Euridice, partly based on the theories and practices of such literary men as D. Diderot, F.M. von Grimm*, Rousseau*, and Voltaire, was enthusiastically greeted by Gluck’s* friends...

Maximilian Friedrich von Königsegg-Rothenfels,Erzbischof....politisch uninteressiert, ernannte Belderbusch* bereits am 9. Mai 1761 zum Hofkammerpräsidenten

Baron Alexander, (Stroganov)* ….Count of the Holy Roman Empire 29.5.1761,

When the Marquise d’Urfé informed Choiseul of the Count’s (Saint Germain)* presence, he responded, “I am not surprised, because he spent the night in my chamber.” (supposed to have happened in May but is propaby "planted").

September, 1761 One of the two little germans in Diderot’s circle in Paris was Ludwig Heinrich Nicolay*, 1737-1820.

LETTRE DE VOLTAIRE A P. M. HENNIN*. Aa Château de Ferney, a6 octobre 1761

Cocchi's Allessandor nell'Indie (13.10.1761 London KT)

......Calzabigi, a somewhat unknown librettist who advocated the mixing of French and Italian serious opera to make a new genre better than either. Since this was also an idea that interested Durazzo*, he may have been the person who introduced Calzabigi to Gluck*.The two probably worked together on a ballet, Don Juan, which was premiered on October 17, 1761.

(Rousseau*, "secluded" in Montmorency, published his Nouvelle Heloise in 1761 but is otherwise offscreen )

G: Le Cadi dupé (9.12.1761 Wien B) [Der betrogene Kadi]

*Gioachino Cocchi's alias


Best regards.

Thank you Yanni,

That is interesting. This is more focused, for sure.

Here is a short break. Greetings to the kind and brave people of Greece, who are struggling against the ruthless, corporate, globalist takeover of their nation.

Jim Croce
'Old Man River'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uw_jU_WEK60

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yanni

Your bitterness will go away soon as you taste the prize you rightly won!

It's time you get busy checking and rewriting your http://www.italianopera.org/articoli...CONCERTI.html: Most if not all of your "unknowns" have disappeared (via Carl Ludwig Cocceji-Belderbusch and his absolutely revealing -for me as well-relations to elector Max Frantz among other).

"Carl Luwig Cocceji-Belderbusch" fully explains Beethoven's as well as Luchesi's devotion and indebtness to him eversince Maximilian Friedrich's office as Kurkoeln Elector.

(As Thayer reports) "...he was a good-natured, friendly man who left it to his minister, Kaspar Anton von Belderbusch, to reduce expenses and to turn the Electorate of Cologne into one of Germany's most flourishing states".

Beethoven's grandfather Ludwig was his choice for Kappelmeister in 1761.

Does Cocceji-Belderbusch fit my "all aliases mastertimeline" for the specific year?

With Calzabigi's , Luchesi's, Leopold Mozart's etc, assistance it does, as follows:

1761

Cocchi's Tito Manlio 7.2.1761 London KT

Hennin* a Saint Foix Varsovie, 10th Feb 1761

Februar: Waffenstillstand zwischen Preußen und Russland, im Mai verlängert bis 27. 5.

In February 1761 Ranieri Calzabigi, a friend of the adventurer Giovanni Giacomo Casanova*, visited Vienna. His libretto for Orfeo ed Euridice, partly based on the theories and practices of such literary men as D. Diderot, F.M. von Grimm*, Rousseau*, and Voltaire, was enthusiastically greeted by Gluck’s* friends...

Maximilian Friedrich von Königsegg-Rothenfels,Erzbischof....politisch uninteressiert, ernannte Belderbusch* bereits am 9. Mai 1761 zum Hofkammerpräsidenten

Baron Alexander, (Stroganov)* ….Count of the Holy Roman Empire 29.5.1761,

When the Marquise d’Urfé informed Choiseul of the Count’s (Saint Germain)* presence, he responded, “I am not surprised, because he spent the night in my chamber.” (supposed to have happened in May but is propaby "planted").

September, 1761 One of the two little germans in Diderot’s circle in Paris was Ludwig Heinrich Nicolay*, 1737-1820.

LETTRE DE VOLTAIRE A P. M. HENNIN*. Aa Château de Ferney, a6 octobre 1761

Cocchi's Allessandor nell'Indie (13.10.1761 London KT)

......Calzabigi, a somewhat unknown librettist who advocated the mixing of French and Italian serious opera to make a new genre better than either. Since this was also an idea that interested Durazzo*, he may have been the person who introduced Calzabigi to Gluck*.The two probably worked together on a ballet, Don Juan, which was premiered on October 17, 1761.

(Rousseau*, "secluded" in Montmorency, published his Nouvelle Heloise in 1761 but is otherwise offscreen )

G: Le Cadi dupé (9.12.1761 Wien B) [Der betrogene Kadi]

*Gioachino Cocchi's alias


Best regards.

---

The question of Willibald and Heinrich being the same person has already been settled by Robert Tompkins in December 2006 (His work on Beethoven's opus identifying Heinrich Koch's principles in Beethoven's work).

http://digital.library.unt.edu/searc...2&t=dc_creator

Old man river is to my liking, classical music is not and, from a philosophical viewpoint, so are calls to greek "bravery" at a time of, to put it mildly, gross and worldwide imbalance!

Here is another "focused" timeline abstract:

1784 (Treaty with England ratified by Congress. Bavarian Monarch Carl Theodore outlaws secret societies. Cagliostro moves to Lyons from Bordeaux to found the Mother Lodge of Egyptian Masonry. Royal Commission in Paris, including Franklin and Guillotine as members, investigates Mesmerism and returns a negative report.)

Caspar Anton von der Heyden genannt Belderbusch † 2. Januar 1784 auf Schloss Miel bei Bonn.

3 January , Gluck’s Orpheo and Eurydice first performed at the Smock Alley Theatre, Dublin
(check a Thomas Jefferson, famous irish actor with links to Richmond VA, London, Garrick, Haymarket, Covent Garden, Drury Lane during and after the Stuart rebellion)

Jefferson To Chastellux Annapolis, Jan. 16, 1784
The greatest difficulty we find is to get money from them….But enough of America it’s politics & poverty.—Science I suppose is going on with you rapidly as usual. I am in daily hopes of seeing something from your pen which may portray us to ourselves. Aware of the bias of self love & prejudice in myself and that your pictures will be faithful I am determined to annihilate my own opinions and give full credit to yours.
(Although reluctant to let go of the project, by January, 1784, the clamor to see the manuscript had grown so great that he informed the Marquis de Chastellux that he intended to print up "a dozen to 20 copies to be given to my friends, not suffering another to go out." The cost of American printing, however, was so high that the publication did not actually appear until after he was appointed Minister Plenipotentiary to France on May 7, 1784)

February Saint Germain “dies” in Schleswig Holstein.

March 1784 Cardinal de Rohan meets Marie Antoinette in Versailles.

April, 1784, Daly produced Gluck's opera, Orpheus and Eurydice, with Tenducci and Mrs. Billington as the stars. (On July 9th of the same year the famous "Douglas" riot occurred. when the Duke of Rutland was present on a command night at the Theatre Royal.)

April 1784 Jefferson notes on the Establishment of a Money Unit and of a Coinage for the United States..

Figaro’s nozzes, April in Paris, by Pierre-Augustin Caron Beaumarchais.

Another Belderbusch, possibly his nephew*, is appointed agent of Max-Frantz in Paris 1785 http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles...de_Belderbusch

*In 1802, this other Belderbusch became deputy for Oise, north of Paris, Duc d'Orleans former "property", headed by:

CASSINI Jacques Dominique, dit CASSINI DE THURY 2 juillet 1800

LEHOC Louis Grégoire 17 mai 1802

DELAHANTE Étienne Henri 3 juin 1806

CASSINI Jacques Dominique, comte de, dit CASSINI DE THURY 28 avril 1817
(Liste des présidents du Conseil Général de l'Oise at http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histoire_de_l%27Oise)

IE The other Belderbusch is the same person as Cassini de Thury!!

Regards.

Yes, Yanni. I rate this American singer/songwriter/guitarist (Jim Croce) as one of the finest musicians of the last few decades. He only made a few LP's. His songs in my view equal to Schubert or any other musician of the 18th or 19th centuries.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USVvx...rom=PL&index=5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HR6d...aynext_from=PL

Of interest your shift of focus to 20th century "soul" music.

Für die Musikgeschichte hat Max Franz von Köln insofern Bedeutung, als er die Ausbildung Beethovens bei Joseph Haydn ermöglichte.....while Belderbusch ,at the pianoforte, accompanied him and his viola.

Of interest:

Mozarts »bestes Werk« ...

Mozart hat sein "Quintett in Es-Dur für Klavier und vier Bläser" (KV 452) am 30. März 1784 in sein »Verzeichnüß aller meiner Werke« eingetragen. Zu dieser Zeit war er endgültig in Wien angekommen, und hatte innerhalb von sechs Wochen als Klaviervirtuose und Komponist bei 22 Akademien mitgewirkt, daneben seine Schüler bzw. Schülerinnen unterrichtet und natürlich komponiert. Denn das Wiener Publikum wollte stets etwas Neues von ihm hören. »Nun können sie sich leicht vorstellen, dass ich nothwendig neue Sachen spielen muss […]«, schrieb er dem Vater. Neu war in Wien aber auch die »Harmoniemusik«, ein Ensemble aus acht Bläsern (2 Oboen, 2 Klarinetten, 2 Hörner und 2 Fagotte).

Mozarts Quintett, das er im k. k. Burgtheater am 1. April 1784 in einer eigenen Akademie den Wienern vorstellte, ist in diesem musikgeschichtlichen Zusammenhang zu sehen.

(You may place it in the timeline above yourself).

Yes, global "blasen" began then, in 1784.

:Angel_anim:

Yes Yanni. I'm having a little break from Mozart. I'm hoping to get in to some intensive work on him starting next week. So it's just a pause.

Yes, this last post of yours is interesting too.

(The posts on Jim Croce were hopefully OK).

And here's some Doc Watson -

'Deep River Blues'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VAbrnjdtYw

And Leo Kottke -

'Last Steam Engine Train'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-E_s4...eature=related

(Regarding Mozart etc. there is the House of Savoy too).

Robert

Here is a little Beethoven trio to cheer you up, courtesy of "Koch" (2/3).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJbhClb0iGk

Thanks Yanni.

And here again - Doc Watson and Leo Kottke together

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGbhVHrAcmo&NR=1

For finale (unless you have something other to contribute on the subject) here is

"Μάλιστα κύριε" grk for Yes Sir(in the sense: "Such is the state of things, pal") by greek national poet Zabetas singing it and playing his buzuki.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pciC...eature=related

Very, very nice ! I like it a lot !!!

I really like this too -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30MC7...eature=related

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yanni

For finale (unless you have something other to contribute on the subject) here is

"Μάλιστα κύριε" grk for Yes Sir(in the sense: "Such is the state of things, pal") by greek national poet Zabetas singing it and playing his buzuki.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pciC...eature=related

---

The one and only Markos ("Your eyelashes shine"-"Sunrise minore").

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxkfr...eature=related


(a fitting wake up call to english Wikipedia etc:
H. C. Koch
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Wikipedia does not have an article with this exact name.

and german wiki article on him is false

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Christoph_Koch
)

Yes Yanni,

And here's some music from my own country. Scotland -

Road to the Isles
Andy Stewart

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDz6c...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OxInaB-zT0

(or you could, I suppose, now focus on Beethoven Piano Quartets, WoO 36: in E; in D; in C and
explain to your colleagues their provenance!)

Yanni,

As already said on this forum there are numerous works that are wrongly attributed to the young Beethoven. Which are said to be Beethoven's. Amongst the more ridiculous examples are the two great cantatas of state, WoO87 and WoO88.

But since you refer to instrumental music I might also refer to WoO4, a keyboard concerto, which has also been attributed to the young Beethoven. But which cannot possibly be his. (The surviving score is not in Beethoven's hand and it is written on paper of a special kind which was simply not produced after 1784) .See as proof of this articles such as 'L. van Beethoven 'Atti del convegno internazionale di studi' - Verona 1988, p. 41.

That particular watermark was known as 'Nic Heisler' and is also found in the 'Paris' symphony score of 'Mozart' !! (See. A Tyson's 'Studies of the Autograph Scores', p. 109). That paper comes from the Bonn area and was in use there until around 1784 at the latest. And it was also used at Mannheim.

And even some of the paper used in the Beethoven sketchbook known as 'Grasnick 1' (which is said to belong to Beethoven's period in Vienna after 1792) is refered to as 'Viennese' in an article by Dr. A. Chiarelli (1992) although it cannot possibly be from Vienna. Nor can it be as late as 1792. It surely dates before 1786. It too is 'Nic Heisler' watermarked paper.

She writes - 'We find the same watermark with the name 'Nic Heisler' in the Ludwig van Beethoven's Vienna sketchbook 'Grasnick 1'

In respect of the 3 quartets WoO36, also the Trio WoO37, the Hess Serenade 13 etc. - all of these works coming from Bonn - here too there are major problems. First because contemporary writer Ferdinand Ries refused to accept as genuine Beethoven WoO36 in a publication of 1832. And modern researcher Andreas Holschneider even writes 'the first preserved Beethoven's autographs are absolutely NOT in Beethoven's own handwriting'.

The situation becomes even more laughable with the attribution to W.A. Mozart in 1905 when two works KV25a and KV511a were said to be Mozart's. And when this was shown to be untrue they were later credited to.... the young Beethoven ! Although they are in the hand of neither. Nor were they ever credited to Mozart or to Beethoven during their entire lifetimes.

Luchesi, Kapellmeister at Bonn, is the obvious connection between Beethoven, Mozart and the late official career of Josef Haydn. And so this proves to be. These works undoubtedly come from the network of composers who were creating music for all 3 at different times. With Bonn being a vitally important place for both Haydn and Mozart's careers. Involved was Andrea Luchesi, who was of course the Kapellmeister at Bonn. Whose own music has so mysteriously disappeared. Wholesale. G. Taboga of Italy has done outstanding research on the life and career of this almost unknown Andrea Luchesi. In fact, Taboga's research on these issues is perhaps the most outstanding. Luchesi is a man whose entire career has been ignored by the music industry because it contradicts the icons of the modern music industry. Since Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven are major 'gods' of that music industry.

As I, at least, learned while in this thread, a franciscan monk Koch is said to have taught Mozart music and a Heinrich Koch was the first to comment on pupil Mozart and, as it has already been noticed elsewhere, Beethovens re quartets are, curiously, Mozartean in style.

And the two Kochs were one and the same with pianoplayer Belderbusch (and propably with Beethoven's Waldstein to), remember?

Koch's "modern" (1760-1780) composition theories and their influence on Haydn have already been highlighted by Elaine Rochelle Sisman ("Haydn and the classical variation").

...and I am certain his principles can be verified in his own operas (Gluck's) but "nobody" has ever thought doing so!

....and no musicologist has ever traced the provenance of "Koch's" deep theoretical music knowledge, obviously the result of long years of composition practice!

...and what a coincidence(!!): A rather mozartean Joseph Niesen publishing his Bonner personnen book in 2007 giving details on Beethoven's Babette Koch-Belderbusch!

Don't let these details delay you however, your holy cows must be served or else they'll turn against their creators.

Heil whatshisname!

Yanni,

You can be sure Cocchi will not be absent from 'The Manufacture of Mozart'. Though not perhaps as prominent a feature as you would like. Still, highly important, for sure.

Yes, these early 'Beethoven' quartets are curiously Mozartean in style. That is certainly true. And it has often been pointed out to the Mozart industry. Who look at their watches and have an urgent appointment somewhere else ! They were well known at Bonn. And it was from Bonn those musical scores first came. They existed at the time Beethoven was a student there. He was familiar with them. But he did not compose them. The same Bonn which was visited by Josef Haydn both before and after both his tours of England. The same Bonn where Mozart had hopes of becoming Kapellmeister (but which post was of course already held by Andrea Luchesi and which was never realised). The same Bonn where the score of 'Mozart's' 'Magic Flute' was sent, even before its premiere in 1791. (Loaded as it is with music by Clementi, Paul Wranitsky and various others). The same Bonn whose musical archives (some of them) are today held at the Estense Library in Modena, Italy, including scores of many symphonies and masses attributed by tradition to 'Haydn' and also 'Mozart', although the musical records of Bonn show not a single 'Mozart' work in their achives in 1784. (This made at the time of the last music inventory made of that music archive). It was also from Bonn where the Grossmann theatre group (long associated with and employed by the Bonn Hofkapelle) emerged. Under the management of Andrea Luchesi. Which, in 1784 became a private touring company. The same theatrical and operatic group which, in 1785, at Frankfurt, staged 'Le Nozze di Figaro' (fully a year before the 'Mozart premiere' in Vienna on 1st May 1786). Again, hardly recognised by the Mozart industry. It was to Bonn, that the two Reicha's (Anton etc) came from serving earlier at the court of Oettingen Wallerstein in 1784 - shortly after the arrival in Bonn of the new elector, Mozart's friend and patron, Max Franz. And it was Oettingen Wallerstein where Rossler was based (whose Requiem Mass was performed in honour of Mozart and even in 'Mozart's' name when it was performed in Prague in late 1791 at the memorial service for Mozart). The mass of evidence clearly shows Bonn was a vital link in the network which presided over the manufacture of the iconic status of Josef Haydn, W.A. Mozart and even early Beethoven.

And, to illustrate how the music industry works and has worked since the early 19th century onwards, during the time when Beethoven was already being given legendary status (prior to his death in 1827) an equally famous composer of chamber music George Onslow (1784-1853) was in just as great demand as Beethoven ! Although he, today, is virtually unknown, unperformed and virtually nobody has ever heard of him or his music !! George Onslow was rated by Schumann and by numerous other writers of the time as the finest composer of chamber music in all of Europe. Even above Beethoven. A view shared by numerous German and other music publishers where his music was instantly published and was very famous.

The musical 'amnesia' of the priests who edit and polish the musical statues on Easter Island is amazing ! Here is a rare chance to hear some of Onslow's music. A major composer of Beethoven's own mature period. With a known association with Vienna and Beethoven's own circle of influence.

You might listen to Onslow's 2nd and 3rd Symphonies ! If they are not equal to those of Beethoven and very often strikingly similar I am Chinese !!!

The bottom line is this. What we believe and are taught of that crucial era (from Mozart to Beethoven) is highly invented and suppresses vast amounts of information. I will try to get parts of Onslow's symphonies put here soon.

So, yes, certainly. We are describing here an entire network of composers, publishers, publicists, managers, patrons and propagandists whose value judgements and whose influence accounts for the construction of the musical icons which literally dominate our understanding of 'musical history' - especially in the Hadyn, Mozart, Beethoven period. We have only, so far, scratched the surface.

My aim is not so much to attribute famous works of that 'holy trinity' to any particular other composer in areas where there are real doubts. But to show, from many kinds of evidence these works are definitely not those of Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven in spite of 200 years of tradition and invention. Focusing, as said, on the legendary life and career of W.A. Mozart. And showing (by information that is almost never appreciated) how that status was invented and raised to giant, dominating size. The one we know today.

Not forgetting the contribution made to both Mozart and Beethoven's reputations by Cartellieri. Virtually forgotten also.

Here are two movements from Onslow's Op. 79

George Onslow (1784-1853)

Op. 79/1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sZc4...eature=related

Op. 79/3 (Scherzo)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vM1aA...eature=related

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yanni

As I, at least, learned while in this thread, a franciscan monk Koch is said to have taught Mozart music and a Heinrich Koch was the first to comment on pupil Mozart and, as it has already been noticed elsewhere, Beethovens re quartets are, curiously, Mozartean in style.

And the two Kochs were one and the same with pianoplayer Belderbusch (and propably with Beethoven's Waldstein to), remember?

Koch's "modern" (1760-1780) composition theories and their influence on Haydn have already been highlighted by Elaine Rochelle Sisman ("Haydn and the classical variation").

...and I am certain his principles can be verified in his own operas (Gluck's) but "nobody" has ever thought doing so!

....and no musicologist has ever traced the provenance of "Koch's" deep theoretical music knowledge, obviously the result of long years of composition practice!

...and what a coincidence(!!): A rather mozartean Joseph Niesen publishing his Bonner personnen book in 2007 giving details on Beethoven's Babette Koch-Belderbusch!

Don't let these details delay you however, your holy cows must be served or else they'll turn against their creators.

Heil whatshisname!

---

Here is a remarkable movement from Onslow's last (4th Symphony) -

George Onslow (1784-1853)
Symphony No. 4
Opus 71

1st Movement
Hanover Philharmonic Radio NDR
Germany
J.Goritzki
(Introduzione/ Largo/Allegro spirituoso)

http://www.mediafire.com/?nz2nommdm4b

Your difficulty to really understand and live with, as a musicologist, the issues arising from demasking the phantom can but be excused: An alltogether different world, not just in music!

George Onslow's biography is somehow limited in details, his blood connection to his own father already doubtfull. Around 1787 Chastellux was also married (for the nth time) to an english girl (name Plunkett if I remember correctly) and a son came to life later but there is no record of what happened to him.

Regarding "François-Jean de Beauvoir*** de Chastellux's" later life marriage to Marie-Josephine-Charlotte-Brigitte de Plunkett and their son Alfred: A separate chapter will follow later on herein, once relative research is sufficiently completed. http://gwpapers.virginia.edu/index/p...ial/clist.html
(post #4 of "Melchior Grimm revisited" herein)

She came from Duc d'Orleans circle.


Good luck with your book.

Best regards.

Yes, it was a great difficulty for years. But, like an onion, its layers eventually peeled away.

Duc d'Orleans ? He was the sponsor for the French printing of the famous 'Violin School' - a work published in the year of W.A. Mozart's birth, 1756, (first in Austria/Germany) and later in that Paris edition and dutch in Holland, text based on the plagiarised and still unpublished violin treatise of Tartini. That book appearing in the name of none other than a certain Leopold Mozart. Just a coincidence, of course ! As is the link between Leopold Mozart and various music publishing journals and agencies. Leopold Mozart had an extensive network of contacts through these musical journals and acting as a sales agent for music in Salzburg. The same Duc d'Orleans was an active occultist. And friend of the Mozarts in Paris. As you say yourself, 'the circle around Duc D'Orleans'. Which included Barons and patrons of Mozart in Venice, Italy, Germany and Austria. Including England.

Onslow was far too clearly associated with the elite aristocracy of the British Empire. (aka East India Company). So he and his musical career had to be virtually edited out of books on music history. It was a vast network. You are right about Onslow's 'pedigree'. Rather a giveaway so he and the music associated with him are today virtually unknown.

And then there is of course Thomas Linley/Bath/the British elites of that time surrounding the patronage there of art and music. And the circumstances surrounding Linley's accidental death at that castle lake in 1778. The 'English Mozart', no less.

Best regards

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yanni

Your difficulty to really understand and live with, as a musicologist, the issues arising from demasking the phantom can but be excused: An alltogether different world, not just in music!

George Onslow's biography is somehow limited in details, his blood connection to his own father already doubtfull. Around 1787 Chastellux was also married (for the nth time) to an english girl (name Plunkett if I remember correctly) and a son came to life later but there is no record of what happened to him.

Regarding "François-Jean de Beauvoir*** de Chastellux's" later life marriage to Marie-Josephine-Charlotte-Brigitte de Plunkett and their son Alfred: A separate chapter will follow later on herein, once relative research is sufficiently completed. http://gwpapers.virginia.edu/index/p...ial/clist.html
(post #4 of "Melchior Grimm revisited" herein)

She came from Duc d'Orleans circle.


Good luck with your book.

Best regards.

---

A question often overlooked (because of the impossibility of an answer) is that of the fate of 18th elite's "children born out of marriage".

Some were trained as musicians propably, like Onslow and maybe Beethoven as well (a previous baby Ludwig dying and rumors of Ludwig #2 as an illegitimate child of a king or other) and with "Koch-Bache-Figaro" always ready to accomodate all, no wonder so many composers were produced at the time, all sharing the same more or less "principles".

"Koch" was Duc d'Orleans chief spy, hence the many aliases he used.

Regards.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Musicology

Yes, it was a great difficulty for years. But, like an onion, its layers eventually peeled away.

Duc d'Orleans ? He was the sponsor for the French printing of the famous 'Violin School' - a work published in the year of W.A. Mozart's birth, 1756, (first in Austria/Germany) and later in that Paris edition and dutch in Holland, text based on the plagiarised and still unpublished violin treatise of Tartini. That book appearing in the name of none other than a certain Leopold Mozart. Just a coincidence, of course ! As is the link between Leopold Mozart and various music publishing journals and agencies. Leopold Mozart had an extensive network of contacts through these musical journals and acting as a sales agent for music in Salzburg. The same Duc d'Orleans was an active occultist. And friend of the Mozarts in Paris. As you say yourself, 'the circle around Duc D'Orleans'. Which included Barons and patrons of Mozart in Venice, Italy, Germany and Austria. Including England.

Onslow was far too clearly associated with the elite aristocracy of the British Empire. (aka East India Company). So he and his musical career had to be virtually edited out of books on music history. It was a vast network. You are right about Onslow's 'pedigree'. Rather a giveaway so he and the music associated with him are today virtually unknown.

And then there is of course Thomas Linley/Bath/the British elites of that time surrounding the patronage there of art and music. And the circumstances surrounding Linley's accidental death at that castle lake in 1778. The 'English Mozart', no less.

Best regards

---

Ah, yes, this is a major subject. There are 'rumours' about Beethoven. For sure. And we have the strange early life story of Beethoven's Vienna colleague Antonio Casimir Cartellieri (who, after he shared a concert in Vienna became associated with 'editing' Mozart stage works for performance in Bohemia for Lobkowitz). Cartellieri suddenly turned up in his youth in Vienna as a music pupil of Antonio Salieri. In fact, the first surviving musical work of Cartellieri is a chamber work dedicated to Antonio Salieri by Cartellieri.

Then we have the strange childhood of Anton Reicha. Who turned up in Bonn with his uncle from Oettingen Wallerstein to join the same orchestra as the young Beethoven c. 1782/3. Reicha later becoming a composition professor at the Paris Conservatory.

Not forgetting an earlier child of the Mozart family (also named Amadeus) who died not long after his birth, this a year or so before Wolfgang's own birth.

And, of Beethoven, there is the story of how he supposedly dedicated his 3rd Symphony, Opus 55, the ‘Eroica’ to Napoleon Bonaparte, only to scribble it out in disgust once Napoleon had himself crowned Emperor. (Or so goes the story, at least).

In fact the title of the first (London) publication of the score of Beethoven’s ’Eroica’ Symphony which first uses this dedication dates from not earlier than 1809 to an un-named hero ("Sinfonia Eroica composta per celebrare la morte d'un Eroe") but later reads "per festeggiare il sovvenire di un grand'uomo". Apart from the famous theory about the work being dedicated to Napoleon, Beethoven's acquaintance with one Prince Louis Ferdinand of Prussia, who was revered as a hero by his contemporaries and killed in a battle with French troops in 1806 has also been considered as another candidate for that strange dedication. Still others have suggested Beethoven might have had an purely imaginary hero in mind

I’d like to suggest the ’hero’ Beethoven had in mind in that dedication was none other than this little known musical colleague and friend of his early Vienna period Antonio Casimir Cartellieri (who had died in the service of Prince Lobkowitz, patron of Beethoven, on 2nd September 1807 at such a young age). Prince Franz Joseph Maximilian von Lobkowitz was a great music lover and passionate violinist and had a private orchestra and employed excellent musicians for a string quartet. He certainly became one of the most important patrons of Ludwig van Beethoven and was interested in performing new works of the composer in his palace. His father before him was a patron of Mozart. Particularly noteworthy is Beethoven's Third Symphony, the so-called "Eroica" was rehearsed several times at the Prince's palace in Vienna before its first public performance. Lobkowitz was the same employer, in fact, of that same almost unknown C.A. Cartellieri who, records clearly show was a close musical associate of Beethoven for some years. As for Onslow, again, there are questions.

We know too Cartellieri was described shortly after his arrival in Vienna as a 'pupil of Abbe George Vogler'. The same Vogler who was associated with Mozart at Mannheim. He was a member of the Order of the Golden Spur, the same as Mozart. (In fact, he was a papal chamberlain, virtually the same rank as a Cardinal). And this same Vogler (whose official story disguises his real significance in the history of music) was even described as the 'teacher' of Cartellieri in those first days in Vienna. In fact, a great symphony by Cartellieri was performed at the Vienna concert where both he and Beethoven were the featured composers. The name of Cartellieri is largely forgotten today although, at the time, he made a tremendous impact. As much as Beethoven himself, in fact. The two were closely associated. Through the same Prince Lobkowtiz. Who snapped him up for service in Bohemia shortly after that concert. Where he remained until his sudden death at an early age.

The fact that the concert impresario of Joseph Haydn (Salomon) lived in the same house as young Beethoven at Bonn is, well, sheer coincidence, of course (LOL).

The coincidences are remarkable, for sure !!

Certainly.....but you "failed mentioning" Beethoven's other patron, Count Oppersdorf and his chateau in upper Glogau with an orchestra and a theater big enough to stage his oppern in his (Carl Ludwig Cocceji's) Dorf.

(http://www.mattnaughtin.com/Beethoven-Symphony4.pdf)

He is, most propably, the same man as Prince Lobkowitz, owner of another chateau famous for its theater and links to opera musiciens, the Jezeri-Eisenberg chateau (in Sagan, Bohemia) were Gluck was allegedly raised .

Did you know that another alias he used was "Montferrat" ie "Eisenberg"?

Anyway FERDINAND Philipp Apostol Joseph Johann Nepomuck Adalbert Anastaz 6.Fürst von Lobkowicz, Herzog von Sagan had a theater and an orchestra in his bohemian chateau too and he did die in Wien 14.1.1784 (hah-hah), his Sagan property then sold by his successor, JOSEPH FRANZ MAXIMILIAN Fardinand Karl 7.Fürst von Lobkowicz, last Herzog von Sagan after 3.5.1786 to Birons von Kurland (then serving his Russia).

Emperor Joseph II bestowed upon the 7th Prince Lobkowicz, Joseph Franz Maximilian Lobkowicz (1772-1816), the title Duke of Roudnice in 1786.Joseph Franz Maximilian remains best known as a great lover of music and patron of Beethoven, who dedicated numerous works to Lobkowicz, including the 3rd (Eroica)(!!), 5th and 6th (Pastoral) Symphonies, the Opus 18 String Quartets and the Triple Concerto.

IE Mozart's and Beethoven's one and only "Lobkowicz" was "Waldstein" who introduced Beethoven to russian prince Lichnowicz (his neighbogh in Eisenberg-Sagan but in their biographies they share the same chateau).

(He also had a son "Gleichenstein" btw)

Life is less worth living without fairytales and as such you should never forget(hah-hah) Oppersdorf and his Seven Dwarfs....

...mit Gluck!

:driving:

Yes,

You refer to the Jezeri-Eisenberg chateau (in Sagan, Bohemia) where Gluck was allegedly raised. Owned by Lobkowitz. I've made quite a study of the Lobkowitz patronage of Mozart and Beethoven. That estate was one of two in Bohemia where Cartellieri spent much of his short life. And the extraordinary circumstances of Cartellieri's death are recorded in an unpublished document made by his son, who later was employed by the same Lobkowitz family in Prague. (In fact, the whereabouts of the vast music archives of the Bonn Hofkappelle were for years manipulated after their evacuation from Bonn in 1794), arriving at Prague. Though the truth of that is concealed behind much misinformation. Those music archives (formerly held at Bonn) provide some of the most devastating evidence of entire symphonies and masses being falsely attributed to Haydn and Mozart. Many of these documents today at Modena, in Italy. What little has been written about them tends to be false. The 'official' story is they were made in the early 19th century. But the watermarks clearly show they come (for the most part) from Bonn. And they include remarkable evidences of many 'Mozart' symphonies having existed years before they were supposedly 'composed', by him. The same can be said of numerous symphonies and masses attributed to 'Haydn'. Each has its own story. But their orchestration and watermarks (plus other evidence) show beyond reasonable doubt these were manipulated. The music archives of the Lobkowitz's at Jezeri-Eisenberg are just as vital. Here we find evidence of work being done on 'Mozart' operas even before their first publication. (During the time Cartellieri and his musical colleague Anton Wranitsky were working there. The other Wranitsky (Paul) being the 'manager' of the musical estate of Mozart after 1791 with the collaboration of Constanze Mozart).

And which person conducted the premiere of Beethoven's 'Eroica' in Vienna ?

Another important patron of Cartellieri (also associated with early Beethoven) was Count Oborski/Oborsky). I believe it was from Oborsky that Cartellieri first went in to service with Prince Lobkowitz. The ancestor of Count Oborsky was one Bishop Tomasz Oborski at Kalwaria Zebrydowska near Krakov in Poland. Who declared a Marian image in 1656 that had been donated to the church there as miraculous and consented to its public exposure in the church. Around which grew the cult known today at Kalwaria Zebrydowska. Mikolaj Stanislaw Oborski: 1576-1646, Jesuit and writer, joined the Jesuit order in 1602. Investigated the miracles of Stanislaw Kostka and associated with art and culture of the counter-reformation.

Again, the composer Vanhal (close associate of Mozart in Vienna but largely hidden from appreciation) was similarly associated with religious communities. As was Josef Haydn. There is powerful evidence the careers of both Josef Haydn and Mozart were 'managed' by interests of the Holy Roman Empire at virtually every stage. Indeed, at Esterhazy that musical regime became closely associated with a religious community nearby that was of vital importance to Josef Haydn throughout most of his career. The same in Vienna. Many tours of young Mozart in western Europe would have been logistically impossible without a network of monasteries and 'hospitals' that existed right across the Holy Roman Empire. These huge tours of the Mozarts were not so much arranged by Leopold's contacts in correspondence with far away patrons and music managers, as we might suppose. They were arranged mostly through this wide and obvious network of church properties. In effect, the close fraternity surrounding Mozart used the resources of the Catholic Church widely. Which explains the absence of much correspondence between Leopold Mozart and his supposed 'patrons' prior to those tours. And the close association of Mozart's final years with monastery musicians. (Abbe Maximilian Stadler and Sussmayr, for example, whose role at that time in managing Mozart's official career is indisputable. The same Stadler undoubtedly associated with later creation of the 'Requiem' together with various others).

Lobkowitz was, of course, a member of the Order of the Golden Fleece. Reserved for the Catholic aristocracy. So that only within the context of the Holy Roman Empire do the background of these careers begin to make sense.

Yes, the connection between Beethoven's 'Eroica' and Lobkowitz. This is explained by the fact that Lobkowitz, resident in Vienna for much of the year and home in Bohemia at other times, had the services of both Cartellieri and Beethoven. Again supporting the view that the dedication on that Beethoven symphony is to his recently lost musical colleague, Cartellieri.

That most of the piano concertos of 'Mozart' were put together for publication after Mozart's death is, to me, a certainty. The same is true of bringing the operas to a form that they were able to be published in his name. Again, this occurring in the years after 1791. The concertos involving much work at places such as Salzburg and, later still, Offenbach with the publisher Andre. So that they finally appeared in print often a decade after Mozart's death in 1791, but not before. This great music involving the input of several composers. And, as for arriving at their final forms, in terms of the operas, there are the 'Mozart' opera manuscripts at Florence.

The whole story is huge. But the broad outlines are clear enough. The careers of these individuals were hugely 'managed' by vested interests who, from the 19th century onwards, became the music industry and who, to this day, preside over 'musicology' (so-called). J.N. Forkel would have laughed. But then, Forkel anticipated exactly what would come if the forces of commerce, conservatism and of popular fashion began to dictate what is taught and believed in these areas.

Regards

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yanni

Certainly.....but you "failed mentioning" Beethoven's other patron, Count Oppersdorf and his chateau in upper Glogau with an orchestra and a theater big enough to stage his oppern in his (Carl Ludwig Cocceji's) Dorf.

(http://www.mattnaughtin.com/Beethoven-Symphony4.pdf)

He is, most propably, the same man as Prince Lobkowitz, owner of another chateau famous for its theater and links to opera musiciens, the Jezeri-Eisenberg chateau (in Sagan, Bohemia) were Gluck was allegedly raised .

Did you know that another alias he used was "Montferrat" ie "Eisenberg"?

Anyway FERDINAND Philipp Apostol Joseph Johann Nepomuck Adalbert Anastaz 6.Fürst von Lobkowicz, Herzog von Sagan had a theater and an orchestra in his bohemian chateau too and he did die in Wien 14.1.1784 (hah-hah), his Sagan property then sold by his successor, JOSEPH FRANZ MAXIMILIAN Fardinand Karl 7.Fürst von Lobkowicz, last Herzog von Sagan after 3.5.1786 to Birons von Kurland (then serving his Russia).

Emperor Joseph II bestowed upon the 7th Prince Lobkowicz, Joseph Franz Maximilian Lobkowicz (1772-1816), the title Duke of Roudnice in 1786.Joseph Franz Maximilian remains best known as a great lover of music and patron of Beethoven, who dedicated numerous works to Lobkowicz, including the 3rd (Eroica)(!!), 5th and 6th (Pastoral) Symphonies, the Opus 18 String Quartets and the Triple Concerto.

Life is less worth living without fairytales and as such you should never forget(hah-hah) Oppersdorf and his Seven Dwarfs....

...mit Gluck!

:driving:

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