In March we will be reading Steppenwolf by Hesse.ead.
Please post your comments and questions in this thr
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In March we will be reading Steppenwolf by Hesse.ead.
Please post your comments and questions in this thr
:hurray::hurray: Yay! I will try to pick up the book sometime this week and start on the weekend.
Yay, I am glad this one won. I look forward to reading it.
Excellent! Ive just started reading Kokoro by Natsume Soseki which is on loan from the library so I need to finish that first, but I'll certainly be picking up Steppenwolf next. Yippee!
I'm halfway through and really enjoying it. I'm glad it won.
I just started reading, and already of course I am in love with the narrator and I just love Hesse's prose work. It always sucks me right from the start. I was immediately engaged in the book as soon as I started and cannot wait to read more.
I'm going to work on getting a copy. The lirary or the book store, I'm not too sure which;)
Shall I talk all on my lonesome about the book whilst you're all trying to catch up?
Nah.. I wouldn't do that. :D
I have to say I thought the whole concept of the Steppenwolf as presented within the Treatise On The Steppenwolf, was quite brilliant, and of course just the sort of thing that would be right up my alley.
It is almost a sort of psychology lycanthropy, and it reminds me of the idea of certain shamanistic cultures who believed that we all have two souls, one human and one animal. And some believed in a literally, physical transformation, as in shape-changing, there were others who did believe in a much more spiritual transformation.
Also though I do not consider myself to be a suicide of any definition or type, with my own macabre romanticism regarding death, I found that discussion about the Steppenwolf's nearness to death, and the idea of seeing death as an escape and release to be quite fascinating.
He returns to the idea of suicide later on too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
On the idea of the steppenwolf dichotomy, the treatise does say that it is a simplification, and that in reality an individual has many minds. I think this refers to Hesse's contact with Asian religions, especially Buddhism, which abides by such concepts. Haller himself later refers to discussions he had with an academic of Asian studies who discussed Hinduism and Krishna. Haller says that he has done with Hinduism, as Hesse did in real life with Hinduism and Buddhism, but I think the ideas and methods still affected Hesse.
I started The glass Bead game before this oportunity came up, and in it Hesse describes an academic elite who form a kind of monastic caste dedicated to learning. In this book he seemed to have combined Asian religious concepts and methods - such as meditation - with the academic strigency of the West.
I was fascinated by the Steppenwolf treatise too, and I'll be looking it over again.
The Asian influence is an interesting one, and perhaps very likely given Hesse's study of Asian culture and spirituality, I know he was quite interested in that subject, and years ago I read Siddhartha, which was a brilliant book.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
But I thought perhaps there may have been some Shamnistic influence in the Stepphenwolf idea because Steppenwolf is a German word that literally means "wolf of the steppes" and Shamanism does have origins in Germany.
I have always had a morbid fascination with suicide, I always find it an interesting subject within literature, perhaps because of my own views relating to death, though I don't have any actual desire for immediate death or notions of taking my own life.
Yes, I know the wolf is a powerful cultural image for Germany/ the Germanic region. They used it a lot in WW2 with the Wolf pack U-Boats etc. I suppose the question is, how is the idea of the wolf implicit on Haller's place in society and his actions. He is certainly a loner, in a social and intellectual sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Yes, though curiously enough being a loner is actually contradictory to the wolf association, who are highly socialized animals. I will have to wait until I read further to better come up with an answer as to the significance of the wolf imagery in particular, as within the Treatise it does suggest that it doesn't have to be wolf, as it speaks of those whom have fish, or foxes and such within them, though the wolf idea is the one being focused upon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
It is one of the reasons why the idea of lyanthrophy cannot help but come into mind, because this portrayal of the Steppenwolf, does seem to more closely reflect ideas of werewolf lore, than natural wolves.
You may be right. I'm at a place where Haller's Steppenwolf-ness is being broken down by Hermine, an acquaintance he meets. She too declares this nature within herself, though it is less obvious than Haller's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
I just bought the book today!! :banana:Hopefully I'll start reading this weekend.
I picked my copy up from the library yesterday. Hopefully I'll start reading today sometime.
I have just read the part where it talks of the multiple individualities of man, and speaks directly about the Asian influences and concepts upon this sort of multiple personality of men, and the countless number of "souls" or "individuals" which inhibit one body.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
It was all quite fascinating, though it did make me wonder as to just what the book is then trying to convey. If the whole concept of the Steppenwolf it itself nothing but an illusion, or a lie, and if in fact in truth Harry is not really split between man and wolf, for he is made of countless parts, than just what is the purpose behind the telling of this story?
For the Steppenwolf seems then in contradiction to the truth of the unlimited selves. It seems to me thus far, that Harry, and those like him, have an awareness enough above others, to know that they are more than just a man, or a single man, and yet they cannot comprehend the full scope of the truth, and so they become limited into feeling divided into two different parts.
The use of the wolf in particular in this idea as the personification as one of the many possible identities of man, I do think is a refection of Western influence and the importance of the Wolf in German, and European culture in general and what the wolf has come to symbolize and the fact both physically as well as spiritually wolves have a long history of being linked to man.
Do you think that the social wolf aspect of Haller is being compromised by his conception of himself as a Steppenwolf - a more lonely figure? I've read on further, and Hermine, whom he meets later, does take him out of himself, and introduces him to a more bohemian style of life.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
In Hesse's introduction, he talks of healing in the book, which has been misconstrued by readers. I can see why the themes in the book would appeal to 60s bohemian types - different from the common run, hating the bourgeois, intellectual, but with free love and an uncommitted lifestyle, as both Hermine and Haller currently have.
I cannot help but to notice some curious parallels between Steppenwolf and Sidhartha as I am reading the book. It seems in very different ways Hesse is dealing and struggling with some of the same issues.
The way in which the Steppenwolf is cast out from society, ostracized by his own family, and left an outcast in every way, reminds me of Siddhartha's own rejection of his family name and wealth to go upon his quest to obtain a deeper meaning and understanding and try and discover the "truth"
While with Siddhartha it was much more of an active and conscious choice, while for the Steppenwolf it seems more something that happens to him of which he does not have a choice in. It is interesting that it says that each time the Steppenwolf is exiled there comes with it a gain in more depth, and some deeper spiritual meaning, yet there is also an increase in loneliness.
I also cannot help but to notice there seems to be a strong bitterness towards the bourgeoisie within the books. Is this because of their materialism? The fact that they are so "blind" to the deeper understanding and meaning, and are concerned with their own illiusional realities, the fact that they cannot see past their own lives and thus do not see the greater human suffering?
Both Sidhartha and Steppenwolf seem to be strongly concerned with ideas relating to human suffering, while Siddhartha goes on a quest to find a spiritual path to try and alleviate human suffering, the Steppenwolf is unable to find peace. He seems tortured, trapped between two different worlds.
He cannot be content in the bourgeoisie any longer, and is not accepted among them, because he has had a glimmer of the truth, and a touch of deeper awareness that sets him apart, and keeps him from being content with bourgeoisie luxuries, yet at the same time because he still cannot see the full scope of the truth, and feels divided within himself, he still longs for those bourgeoisie things which fail to truly fulfill him or give him pleasure.
Yes, I'd agree with that. Siddhartha. Steppenwolf and The Glass Bead Game - which I have started, but stopped in order to read this - are concerned with outsiders. I think ther's a bit of Nietzche - in there too, though I am only broadly aware of his idea of the superman.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
In the Glass bead game the start is about an academic elite that have adopted an almost monastic lifestyle - so he is exploring the idea of an outsider and how they could be accommodated within society. They dedicate themselves to academia - much like celibate monks. (I'm looking forward to going back to the Glass Bead Game after this - it is fascinating).
Siddhartha is an elective outsider - a bit like The Buddha - who left house and home and family. The Steppenwolf seems to have acepted his lot as an outsider. He can't seem to stomach a bourgeois lifestyle, though he does have a fondness for them as he says in the beginning.
The Bohemianism also comes through, and this has a touch if the Nietzchean superman in it as there are drugs, free love and a hedonistic lifestyle involved. There isn't much judgement, just the constant awareness by the \Steppenwolf - even as he is throwing himself into the lifestyle, that it is hollow, and that his calling is deeper.
Just started today, it's already interesting and enjoyable - glad it won :D
I started today too. I read the preface. It is interesting. But did that Preface narrator just give us all the themes up front? Seems like he explained it all. ;) Also, yikes - there are no chapters after the preface.
I did not even read the Preface. Yeah, books that do not have any chapters, or other convenient stopping points can be a bit difficult. Also I am usually not a huge fan of books with paragraphs that last like an entire page or two long. Though I am still loving this book and completely fascinated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Hey, I'm new here and I was very content to see that this book was chosen as it happens to be the one I'm currently reading.
So far it's amazing. Will get back to you guys once I'm finished!
Tha narrative stye is interesting in that Hesse validates the narrator through Haller himself, which is unlike the unreliable narrator in The Turn of the Screw for example.
He is painted as such a solid and perhaps narrow minded young man that he couldn't possibly have made it up.
My copy had an intro by the author that I read. It was pretty interesting. He specifically said that most people don't really get the message of the book. He wouldn't reveal what it was, but Hesse went on to talk about people seeing the story in an entirely different light than what he meant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
I do not know much about Hesse's personal life, I have a bio on him floating around here somewhere but have yet to pick it up and read, but with all the references to Asian and Eastern studies and research that are mentioned within Steppenwolf, do you think that Hesse saw something of himself in Haller?
Oh I know what you mean about the typical Preface. This is not a typical preface, but part of the novel. You need to go back and read it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Yes, mine did too. I thought that was interesting. That's not the preface i mean, by the way. That's the author's introduction.Quote:
Originally Posted by mkhockenberry
Well after what you said, I think I rather wait until I get to the end before reading the preface. I don't think I want it all spilled out to me up fornt. I am enjoying the epxerirence of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Ok, but I assume Hesse wanted people to read that first. I guess you're so far along it doesn't make a difference at this point. :wink5:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Perhaps he did, but thus far I am not finding myself at a disavantage for not having done so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Yeay! I started reading last night. So far very good (as an aside, I'd very much recommend Kokoro by Natsume Soseki, very good).
How do you know if you haven't read it ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Like Virgil said, it's part of the story. If you missed it out then you've effectively started reading at chapter 2.
I think he did. I've just read a potted bio here:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/l...e-autobio.html
and the main themes - pacifism, the problems with nationalism in Germany, eastern studies, living alone after divorce - are mentioned.
It seems as if there is a lot of his experience in the novel.
I'm ashamed to say that's as far as I've read in the book. I'll get to it, soon... I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Well it has not hampered my understanding of the story, I do not feel completely lost of confused for my lack of reading it.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFifthElement
It is not as if when I started reading I felt like I jumped in the middle of the story and I am missing something vital.
While this book is littered with a wide variety of literary allusions which play an important role within the story, and helping to shape the character of Haller and the ideas of the Steppenwolf and his struggles, it seems there is particular attention given to Goethe.
He is mentioned a few different times throughout the book and there was the episode of the portrait of Goethe which played a key role within the story.
I am not that familiar with all of the works of Goethe and I am curious as to just why he does seem to play such a role within the story, and if any of his works have elements that directly relate to the themes expressed within Steppenwolf and Haller's ideas.
I am also unfamiliar with Goethe - except that his version of Faust is superior to Marlowe's by all accounts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Within the story he is accorded the status of an immortal, like Mozart.
That idea of "the immortals" which comes up often within the story also rather intrigues me.
I get the impression that they are metaphorically immortal - he does say it is poetic writing- in the appreciation of what they produced.
As for the preface, I think Hesse sets us up with an expectation that this will be a conventional novel. In fact the narrator - the straight young fellow who spies a bit on Haller- gives us a conventional narrative in the preface. He observes Haller, gives his opinion, and relates the whole story to us up to the departure of Haller. What Haller has written goes far beyond that - it relates the inner poetic story thast is invisible to the bourgeois narrator. So we get two versions - the conventional and the poetic, which are quite different.
:D
I wonder are the "immortals" suppose to be fellow Steppenwolves? They do seem to be literary or otherwise artistic types, and interestingly enough, as you mentioned the connection to poetic writing and the immortals, many of the so called immortals are also composers of music which can be seen as a form of poetry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
They are figures were were different, and outside the norms of society, as well as being highly intellectual and/or visionary and seeming to be elevated a step above the rest.
And in Haller's dream with the spirit of Goethe, Goethe speaks of his own constant struggles against death and seems almost regretfully that he had lived for as long as he did, which seems to reflect Haller's own constant struggle against death.
Also didn't Haller express at one point his own desire to become and counted one among the "immortals?"
That is quite an interesting thought. In a way it is like showing the external world vs the internal. And it is interesting to have a brief glimpse of Haller through the eyes of another and the way in which he is perceived and than to go from that to see Haller's own Self-Perception. That is an interesting narrative technique to view the character in two different ways as a way to gain a more complete picture of him by seeing him both through his own eyes, and through the eyes of outsiders.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem