We are reading The Awakening by Kate Chopin in April.
Please post your comments and questions in this thread.
We are reading The Awakening by Kate Chopin in April.
Please post your comments and questions in this thread.
My library does not have the book but have placed an order. Should get it in a week's time.
I just started reading the book
In the mean time you can still access the book in Google Books, if you'd like.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scheherazade
http://books.google.com/books?id=Jiw...sec=frontcover
I guess I need to reread the "Ponteliers" again.:)
Nice book though. I'm looking forward for some discussions.
I'll read it. I never have, and I've been meaning to for years. It should be enlightening for me to discuss it.
I did read it awhile ago and liked it, but I'm not sure why really. It will be fun to revisit it and delve into it a little more. From what I remember, I would not have classified it as a Novel of Manners. It will be fun to explore that avenue.
Not having read much of it yet, I can't really say, but it doesn't seem like a Novel of Manners to me. Still, I like what I've read, and I agree, Lynne, it should be very interesting to discuss.
This is something I've wanted to read for ages. I will join in if I can. I have a copy at work, but we're off for 2 weeks now for Easter. I may try to read it online.
I have two copies, I believe - both are accompanied by short stories by the author; happen to find my second copy on the freeby shelf at the library. At any rate, I read this book a number of years ago. I think probably it was around the same time Lynne read it, since we discussed it briefly. I too, need a refresher reading. I will tackle it this coming week. It is only about 100 pages in my paperback, but there also seems to be some good notes in the introduction, which I will be interested in reading. Maybe, as a suggestion, we could post some parts of the first chapter or so of the book and work through it systematically. This way we can discuss it as we are reading it. What does everyone think of the idea? We do this with the Lawrence short story thread and it works quite effectively.
Since books are longer than short stories, I like the idea of the book discussions being more open and not as strcutrued.
I like that, too. People read at such vastly different speeds and some have more time to read than others, we'll probably all be at different places in the book.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
True, there is that time limit of one month and we all do read at different speeds. We don't have to adhere specifically, to that one month margin though; no discussion threads actually end forever. I was just thinking back to the 'successful' discussions for monthly book reads and I think the best ones have been ones where we took the chapters systematically; but then again, they did last longer than a month in actuality. We did this more so when discussing "To the Lighthouse", "A Tale of Two Cities", "Women in Love" and many others - but I can't think of any of those, that did not exceed a month's time. The thing is if someone does mention the ending during the early parts of the discussion (month), and this book "The Awakening" would be a good example, then it gives away a great deal and others might give up on their reading. Good idea to put SPOILER on any posts that do reveal the ending of the novel.
Thanks for the advice, Janine. :) I can go with whatever format everyone else likes.
Well, I read this about a year and a half ago (at least I think it was that long ago). I am not understanding the "Manners" category either, but then again, when I think about some of the "events" that take place in the story, I suppose you could list it under that category. I liked it. I won't say too much about anything until people are able to read more of the story and the discussion gets more involved. I don't want to spoil anything for anybody. :)
If anyone, like myself, can't get hold of a copy and wants to start reading NOW - you can do so online here:
http://www.pagebypagebooks.com/Kate_...ies/index.html
or here:
http://classiclit.about.com/library/...op-awake-1.htm
LadyWentworth, I read this book before, too; not sure how many years back, because so quickly time flies by; but I did mostly recall the story but not so much about the aspect of 'manners'. But now I began my re-reading, a few things already stand out to me early on in the book. I recall and quote this part in Chapter IV:Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyWentworth
I think both Madame R's relating of the story of her accouchements (childbirths), especially to a Monsieur (male) and the following paragraph showing how Mrs. Pontellier felt compelled to read this book, of which it 'had gone the rounds', in 'secret and solitude', unlike the others, reflects the set attitude of that society and accepted behavior during that time period. I recall my mother telling me that even her mother would never say the word 'pregnant' out loud and that was not as early on. Both paragraphs here reflect 'manners' and to those not adhering to the proper manners of the day. Obviously, these others who are staying at the estate are going beyond proper protocal in being so 'open' in their sexual attitudes/discussion. Mrs. Pontellier starts out thinking very Victorian in this novel. She is young (28) and has not yet found her own self in all of this; she is quite naive; but for that day she was probably altogether normal. This book often reminds me of "Lady Chatterly's Lover", although LC had had some affairs, so she was way less naive than Mrs. P.Quote:
Never would Edna Pontellier forget the shock with which she heard Madame Ratignolle relating to old Monsieur Farival the harrowing story of one of her accouchements, withholding no intimate detail. She was growing accustomed to like shocks, but she could not keep the mounting color back from her cheeks. Oftener than once her coming had interrupted the droll story with which Robert was entertaining some amused group of married women.
A book had gone the rounds of the pension. When it came her turn to read it, she did so with profound astonishment. She felt moved to read the book in secret and solitude, though none of the others had done so,--to hide it from view at the sound of approaching footsteps. It was openly criticised and freely discussed at table. Mrs. Pontellier gave over being astonished, and concluded that wonders would never cease.
THANKS! opimisticnad, I was wondering where I could locate the book online so I could more easily quote various passages. This has been an emormous help! Thanks for taking the time to find the text online. I own a copy of the book, but the online text is great for reviewing.Quote:
Originally Posted by optimisticnad
This is interesting to me, since D.H.Lawrence often speaks of the Holy Ghost in terms of a personal and sensual awakening in people and also more in a 'flesh and blood' way with his 'transfiguration' belief, than an angelic or otherworldly manner. I am not sure, at this point, how to interpret that last statement. Anyone have any ideas?Quote:
In short, Mrs. Pontellier was beginning to realize her position in the universe as a human being, and to recognize her relations as an individual to the world within and about her. This may seem like a ponderous weight of wisdom to descend upon the soul of a young woman of twenty-eight--perhaps more wisdom than the Holy Ghost is usually pleased to vouchsafe to any woman.
I felt this passage has a sense of forboding and also forshadowing.Quote:
But the beginning of things, of a world especially, is necessarily vague, tangled, chaotic, and exceedingly disturbing. How few of us ever emerge from such beginning! How many souls perish in its tumult!
These two paragraphs I thought were simply beautiful and very poetic; gorgeous and sensual writing.Quote:
The voice of the sea is seductive; never ceasing, whispering, clamoring, murmuring, inviting the soul to wander for a spell in abysses of solitude; to lose itself in mazes of inward contemplation.
The voice of the sea speaks to the soul. The touch of the sea is sensuous, enfolding the body in its soft, close embrace.
Edit: I am only to page 36 but I am liking this book very much. The night sea descriptions were beautiful.
I just started this book. Pretty good so far, The beginning is nicely setting the background of the story as Janine said, the difference in Edna and the others at the resort(?). I've just finished the part where Edna learns to swim and I can't wait to see what happens next!
I think the story is high symbolic, filled with metaphors. I also this the bird in the cage at the very beginning represents Edna before her awakening. I don't want to say more now for fear of spoiling it for others who may not be finished.
I agree with the others. The language of the books is poetic and beautiful.
I am loving it; read more at breakfast. I am about half way through. Glad you two above me like it, too. It's a good read. Keeps one wondering.
I think when everyone reads Chapter XVII, you begin to realise how indeed this book deals with accepted manners of the day and how Mrs. P is hemmed into this world of manners and conventions. I found this chapter quite revealing, as to how the Pontelier family live. If I was Edna, I would die of the routine; and it's quite distressing the way her husband commands his wife. He is overbearing and tyranical. All along, Edna has adhered to this set of strict manners and now she is beginning to realise, there is lot more to life, than the life she has accepted and followed up to this point. She is very much like that bird in the birdcage at the begining of the book.
Finally the library's got my copy so I will be picking it up today and start reading asap.
I've read up to where Edna has started to defy her husband, by staying on the porch all night, which seems such a little defiance, but it's obviously the beginning of her "awakening". I am quite enjoying it so far, it's very readable, not too heavy-going, but I don't think I'd rush off to read more of her work. But I haven't finished it yet. I think it may be one of those books you have to read a few times, to perhaps get all the symbols and underlying sub-texts. Or perhaps it's just as simple as it seems.
wessexgirl, I am on my second reading actually, I am seeing some things I believe I passed by first time around; although, I agree with you, I would not rush out to buy more of her work right away. I may try a few of the short stories in the paperback I own. I do think the writing uncomplicated and somewhat simplistic as you pointed out. I think there is some symbolism and subtext but basically it's just a good enjoyable read and nothing too heavy to have to wade through. I am a little further than you, since I have been reading about 2 chapters a day at breakfast. I like that this book has short chapters. For some dumb reason I can read short chaptered books a little bit quicker; however, I am pouring over this one slowly, so I can now pick up the subtext/symbolism you're referring to.Quote:
Originally Posted by wessexgirl
Scher, glad you got the book finally and enjoy your reading!
Hope we can all discuss it soon; I am looking forward to that.:)
When authors speak of the Holy Ghost, I think they're referring to baptism, Janine, a biblical reference to the Holy Ghost descending as a dove and occupying the soul of Jesus at His own baptism. That works with this book and the theme of awakening. I can understand that women in that time were not "supposed" to be artistic, accomplished, etc. They were only "supposed" to be wives and mothers. But after they received the Holy Ghost, were awakened, I don't understand why the Holy Ghost would not confer just as much wisdom on a woman as on a man, either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Hi MissScarlett, That's it, I believe. Well put! However, Lawrence, who most certainly did refer back to the scriptural references, transformed the word and concept in a certain manner that was characteristic of his works; he took the idea a step further and here in this story I think the author is also doing a very similar thing. It is quite interesting that 'water' is involved in this story, and in many of L's stories, as referring to 'baptism'. Thanks for pointing that out. Actually, in a story we read and discussed of Lawrence's awhile back: The Horse Dealer's Daughter", this concept is even more clearly seen/explored. I think you mentioned that you have read the story, am I correct? If so, we might discuss this and it's parellels, perhaps privately. It might also benefit you to read Virgil's thesis; he loves to share it. He explores Lawrence's individual idea of transfiguration and rebirth. I have to read it twice, and it's quite interesting and throws much light on the concept. I will ask him if he would care to share it with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by MissScarlett
That's a good question, but this was a 'man's world' at that time, so maybe that's why; but now I'm not sure my statement makes any sense in the long run. Afterall it is the Holy Ghost; but what exactly is that? In Lawrence's eyes it was a great mystery and needed to stay as such. As soon as one was the define the word it would stop being significant and holy, elevated and pure. So to your inquiry as to why there was not wisdom granted, I am not sure. Wasn't their wisdom granted to the woman in her awakening.Quote:
But after they received the Holy Ghost, were awakened, I don't understand why the Holy Ghost would not confer just as much wisdom on a woman as on a man, either
I don't think Edna was enlightened as an artist or accomplished in any way. She may have tapped into some sort of talent eventually. All people have some type of talent. This 'awakening' is to life and to deeper and more real connections to another human beings; mostly the male sexual awakening. But then it is also connecting to her true self at the same time and to nature; perhaps really the same thing, her natural self. I feel as though before this 'awakening' she was sleep-walking through life. She was numb to things around her; she was just going day by day through the steps expected of her in a sort of dazy.
I agree with you, Janine that Edna was without any true discovered talent at all. Her paintings seem to have been more dalliances, I don't believe she played the piano, or at least did not play it well. It's true that all people have a talent for something or things, but I don't believe Edna had the true soul of an artist, like Mademoiselle Riesz, or she would have been able to live her life alone as that lady did. Edna, clearly, could not live for her art. When all was said and done, Edna did need a man in her life, just not one so oppressive as her own husband.
Oh heck, did you see I posted twice? I was adding to the first post and thought I had hit the edit button. I hope you caught my added stuff. I will go now and delete the first one.Quote:
Originally Posted by MissScarlett
I quite disagree with this statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by MissScarlett
Women in those were expected to be artistic (sing, draw, paint, play the piano. do needle work). They were not supposed to be making a living out of those things but, nevertheless, they were expected to be good at these things, which is emphasised in many books from the 19th century as well... They were sent to finishing school just for this purpose.
In those days, men led a more independent life and was able to receive education and get to see the world if they chose to do so. Having that kind of freedom, even men were not blessed enough to experience "the awakening" so it was harder women to go through such an experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
"The awakening", in my opinion, is very similar to what Janine touches upon in her post. It is putting an end to mere floating through life and becoming aware of one's place and purpose in life and beginning to question one's role and, hence, having different expectations from life and people around them.
Such self-awareness is something not many people experience, which is why I think it was described like a divine interruption (Holy Ghost), I believe.
Oh, I totally agree with that. But they weren't supposed to make it their life, as a true artist would, as Mademoiselle Reisz did. They were just supposed to be very good at it to please their family or to pass the time while their husbands were out doing what they wanted to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scheherazade
I should have phrased my initial statement differently because I do agree with you. I should have said, they weren't supposed to have an artistic career, but yes, they were expected to be even more artistic than Edna was.
I was thinking along the lines of a true artist like Mademoiselle Reisz, and I should have stated that. For example, I don't think Madame Ratignolle was of a true artistic temperament, but she no doubt was very good at things like needlepoint, embroidery, etc.
The true artists, like George Eliot, sometime used male names if they wanted to enjoy an artistic career.
I somewhat agree with this statement. I do not think women were really expected to know how to paint, that particular form of art I do not think was seen as typically feminine.
Though they were expected to have musical talent, and to sing, as well as do useful domestic things such as knitting.
Writing and painting were not fields in which a woman was really expected to pursue.
I love Mademoiselle Reisz, which is probably not particularly surprising sense she does not like to really be around people nor does she much care for socializing.
In some ways Edna reminded me of Lilly in To the Lighthouse, though Lilly was perhaps a bit more of a serious artist than Edna is.
I'm wondering why Mademoiselle Reisz made the comment that she played the piano because edna asked and she would not play for those others.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
I think Mademoiselle Reisz, as someone who did possess an artistic temperament, and who was strong enough emotionally to "go her own way" recognized a kindred spirit in Edna. She made the statement that she would play for Edna because she "was the only one worth playing for." I think she sensed Edna's awakening to her true self, while the others were still slaves to convention.Quote:
Originally Posted by papayahed
papayahed, she said something about that; something to the effect that she knew only Edna would appreciate her playing (her talent/art). I will try to find the exact passage.Quote:
Originally Posted by papayahed
I agree that most women back then, in this time period would not be expected to have painting talent or any great talent for that matter. As Scheherazade said, they may go to 'finishing school', and learn to do some social sort of talents, perhaps sing, sew, etc. However, I agree that they were not always expected to be professional at these skills. In fact, in the book that Dark Muse compared this story to - "To The Lighthouse", Lily's painting is quite out of the mainstream of accepted female behavoir. In fact, also her choice to remain single back then was frowned upon; Mrs. Ramsey is one who obviously disapproves of it. People seemed not to accept that in a female back then and may hounded her continually. I don't think Edna reminded me of Lily, because Lily was married and she was quite independent and modern thinking for the time; but I can see you connecting them in the way, that by the end of the respective novels, they do undergo some sort of 'awakening'; however their individual 'awakening' is so much different; big difference is the sexual element. It is strange though, thoughout my reading this time of TA, I am constantly reminded of the atmosphere of the other novel and especially the overbearing manner of the husband in the other novel - TTLH. In both books/worlds, the man rules the roost and it causes great difficulty. As soon as Edna returned home and we were given a good glimpse of her homelife; how overbearing her husband was. One example was how her husband behaved complaining of the cook at their dinner-table as though the failed dinner was all Edna's fault; I recall the same sort of scene taking place in the Ramsey household, at the family/guest dinner and how he threw a dizzy about an earwig he found in his soup or salad, and he was ready to fire the cook; but in the same time he was taking his wrath out on his family, especially Mrs Ramsey.
In those days, men led a more independent life and was able to receive education and get to see the world if they chose to do so. Having that kind of freedom, even men were not blessed enough to experience "the awakening" so it was harder women to go through such an experience.
Scheherazade Quote:
Scheherazade,Glad you agree along these same lines. I felt that the title aptly suggests the woman was indeed sleeping until she is 'awakened' by life; she has been merely walking blindly through the steps of her life and accepting, in a 'numbed' fashion, her lot in life, as a 'proper' wife and mother; however, in doing so she is never realising or recognising her actual self or real life and what love means or seeing any happiness in the life she found herself trapped in. Sad to say, but up until this point, her life has been a sort of charade. Again I saw she is like the parrot in the cage; I only add mimicking others and not realising her own life and her own words.Quote:
"The awakening", in my opinion, is very similar to what Janine touches upon in her post. It is putting an end to mere floating through life and becoming aware of one's place and purpose in life and beginning to question one's role and, hence, having different expectations from life and people around them.
Such self-awareness is something not many people experience, which is why I think it was described like a divine interruption (Holy Ghost), I believe.
MissScarlett quote
MissScarlett, I was thinking along these lines, too. I believe that is accurate, what you just wrote.Quote:
I think Mademoiselle Reisz, as someone who did possess an artistic temperament, and who was strong enough emotionally to "go her own way" recognized a kindred spirit in Edna. She made the statement that she would play for Edna because she "was the only one worth playing for." I think she sensed Edna's awakening to her true self, while the others were still slaves to convention.
In the begining of the book when they are on vaccation and Edna is on the beach drawing just struck me as very Lily like. And though Edna is married she does not seem to be the "tradidtiona" or more conventional housewife as it were. Leonce makes remarks about her ablity to be a mother, and she compares herself to Madame Ratignolle who is the model victorian woman.
And both Edna and Lily start out with doubts about thier artistic ablity, and question thesmevles, and as Edna starts to become more indenpentdent she begins to dedicate more of her time to her art. Though I still do not see Edna as nesccasairly becoming a professional artist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Ok, I get your point. It's funny, because I keep thinking of the other book, too and the various quirky characters. I feel like watching the BBC adaptation movie of TTLH; not exactly but still the gist and the atmosphere of the seaside cottage, etc. Maybe, I will watch it tonight.
I've read To the Lighthouse, and I agree with both of you - Dark Muse and Janine, The Awakening did remind me of the other book, but not until you two spoke of it. I think Edna was a little like Lily, perhaps not quite a strong emotionally. Then again, perhaps I'm not remembering the Woof book correctly.
I think the parrot in the beginning of the book definitely symbolizes Edna. When he mimicked others, speaking in Spanish and French, he was understood, but when he spoke a language of his own, no one understood him. It was the same with Edna. When she obeyed every little manner of the day, people related to her, wanted her near them, but the more she's awakened, the more isolated she becomes. I could say more about this, but I want to wait until others catch up with our conversation.
I think Adele Ratignolle and the Farival twins are representative of the kind of "art" Victorian women were "supposed" to indulge in. These women were rather accomplished at the piano. They could play to amuse others, so that others might pass a pleasant evening, but they were not artists like the rather Bohemian Mademoiselle Reisz, who is the one who does understand Edna. And I think Edna connects with Mademoiselle Reisz through the latter's music. Instead of simply seeing pretty pictures in her mind when someone played the piano, when Mademoiselle Reisz played, "she saw no pictures of solitude, of hope, of longing, or of despair. But the very passions themselves were aroused within her soul, swaying it, lashing it, as the waves daily beat upon her splendid body." This is why Mademoiselle Reisz said Edna was the only one worth playing for, I think. Edna was awakening, and she connected with the older woman's art, even if Edna, herself, wasn't such an artist. Yes, as Janine pointed out, it's more a sexual and personal awakening than an artistic one, but it's an awakening to one's own needs nonetheless.
Edna's awakening seems to being, or at least to heighten, when she learns to swim. She's so delighted with that, and she swims more and more. I think this indicates she has the need, and at least some ability, to do things on her own, to be her own person and not simply Mrs. Pontellier.
I just finnised the book and I found the ending a bit dissapointing. I will not say too much about it now, for those who have not yet finnished only.
Only that, if it is implying what I think it is implying than to me it defeats the whole purpose of the story.
On the ending, I interpret it this way. Go for love and search for spiritual freedom, but do not overly depend on someone else. Edna has in a way built her new dreams on another person, and she was led to disappointment. She had the courage to step out, but she could not face it alone.
Yes that would make sense. It just seems that if that were the case, well than ultimately in the end Edna turly was not really very independent at all, and so her whole "awakening" became a bit of a farse toward the end. In the end she still relied upon a man and was still ultimately weak.
If one is discussing the ending, I just would request that 'SPOILER' were placed before the entry. Some individuals are still not done reading the story, I believe. When can we begin discussing the beginning of this story and work through it to to discover symbolism and other elements that make the story interesting?
From the very first lines, I felt drawn into this story by the parrot and bird references and the way the atmosphere of the seaside was depicted. Does anyone else have thoughts on those elements of what they may mean, indicate or fortell? I particularly like the relaying of the imaginary swimming dream of Edna's in the field when she was a young girl. I thought that definitely was a forshadowing device. I also wondered if everyone thought Edna completely stable; at times I was not totally sure; however I did not perceive her as her husband did later on. I think there was a major difference but still at times she seemed to me numb or in a depressed state prior to her awakening. I wondered what all those years of repression had done to her; what effect they ultimately did have on her. I think this might be an interesting aspect to explore.