The other "Canon"

Repeatedly the same discussion pops up again and again on this forum. A question asking us the name what what are the greatest books of Western literature... and invariably the same names arise again and again... and some argue in defense of the merits of these authors... and others (who would have us all imagine them as great liberal free-thinkers:D) argue for some lesser figures... or attempt to dismiss the notion of any canon outright. Whatever the persons favorites it must be noted that rarely does the name of a single work outside of Western literature arise... with the possible exception of a few near-contemporary Japanese writers. The very term "Western Canon" assumes an other... "Eastern Canon" of literature. My question then is which books do you imagine as central to the Eastern Canon... or if such is impossible for you to say... what books outside of the Western Canon have you resonated with you the most? I ask this with the full knowledge that few, if any of us, are conversant in the languages involved, and as such, will be completely at the mercy of translation.

When I looked at my library I noticed that only 4 (on about 200 plus those that I've read that are not in my library!) books would fall in the category of "western" none of them being before WW2. Choukri's For Bread Alone, Kawabata's Snow Country, Kanafani's Men in the Sun and Djebar's Loin de Médine (and that would probably fall in French literature anyways...). All of them being very good, my favorite being Kanafani's and the most interesting being Djebar's. However I wouldn't go forth to nominate any of them as I'm quite ignorant of the whole scheme...

With that in mind, however, I'll stay tuned on what would be part of such cannon. And what about post-colonialism literature? There seems to be some kind of blur here, how would Eastern be defined? Is it the language it was originally written in?

My knowledge of eastern literature is very poor, but I'd say The Bhagavad Gita--its scope is said to rival Shakespeare.

The Discourses of Confucius and The Tao and The Buddhist Texts. I'll let Arabian Nights linger as a toss up.

I have read modern Eastern works, but my pantry is scantily stocked here, sorry luke.

I read this one fabulous little story that is probably quite obsecure called The Ashes of a God, I thought it was quite wonderful.

For those who might include the Quar'an I do not, for both philosophical and technical reasons. Adherents say it is not translatable into English.

For those who might include the Quar'an I do not, for both philosophical and technical reasons. Adherents say it is not translatable into English.

Jozy... don't you find that a refusal to read the Qur'an is a position that is increasingly unacceptable... if not dangerous in our present world? By the way... the Catholics declared that it was equally impossible to translate the Bible from God's language... Latin:lol: :lol: :lol:.

StLuke, I think you're going to have to define what you mean by "Eastern" canon. First of all I can imagine the Isamic world having different canon than the Hindu world and still a different canon from the Chinese world and still a different canon from the Japanese word and still yet from the African world. We identify a Western canon because of a shared experience of our ancient Greco-Roman and Christian heritage. The cultures I've mentioned above probably do not have similar shared heritage.

There are the "Big 5" of Chinese classic literature (not that I've read them, but I want to), which are:

Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Journey to the West
Outlaws of the Marsh
Dream of the Red Chamber
The Plum in the Golden Vase

I guess you'd say The Tale of Genji is up there in the most influential of classical literature. Anyone read these? It would probably the take the better part of several years to read through them all as each one is well over 1500 pages.

Virgil... initially my thought was to question what we have read... and found to be of great merit... within the "Eastern Canon"... as such certainly exists as counterpart to the Western Canon. But this obviously ignores literature of Africa and perhaps other cultures not part of the West... nor the East. I have no problem including Arabic, Persian, Indian, along with Chinese and Japanese as part of an "Eastern Canon". I don't question that there is a Hindu culture quite distinct from that of China or Japan... but not any more different than the culture of Biblical Hebrews are from the culture of Icelandic Sagas, Renaissance Spain, or Modernist Paris. Again... I am really just interested... since this topic of the "best of..." continually rears its head... in what books from outside Western culture... however you imagine that... you have read and found particularly strong and worth reading. Certainly one reason we are all here is to get tips about what books we might best spend our time in reading.;)

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Originally Posted by stlukesguild

For those who might include the Quar'an I do not, for both philosophical and technical reasons. Adherents say it is not translatable into English.

Jozy... don't you find that a refusal to read the Qur'an is a position that is increasingly unacceptable... if not dangerous in our present world? By the way... the Catholics declared that it was equally impossible to translate the Bible from God's language... Latin:lol: :lol: :lol:.

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I know it has been 7 years since luke, but I can never forget that day, nor where I was, and so-- I do have a copy, in English, and there it sits. Read it once.

But to follow up on Virgil's point, what are your parameters? China, Japan, Mongolia, Arabia... Egypt? India of course.

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Originally Posted by stlukesguild

I have no problem including Arabic, Persian, Indian, along with Chinese and Japanese as part of an "Eastern Canon". I don't question that there is a Hindu culture quite distinct from that of China or Japan...

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I'm no expert, but I don't see how Japan's literature can be lumped with Arabic literature. I just don't see any link, even a tenuous one.

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but not any more different than the culture of Biblical Hebrews are from the culture of Icelandic Sagas, Renaissance Spain, or Modernist Paris. Again... I am really just interested.

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Except that the Hebrew's central tenet was absorbed and intertwined through at least a milenium of time into Icelandic culture. Of course it is one specific text of Hebrew culture. I don't know if there is anything else of ancient Hebrew literature but no one is saying that would be part of western canon. Some may include the Epic of Gilgamesh as part of the western canon, but I have always found that to be a stretch.

On another note, I forgot to include the Germanic heritage that was absorbed as part of the western canon.

If mytholgoy can be counted here I love Gilgamesh and The Descent of Inanna

I'm no expert, but I don't see how Japan's literature can be lumped with Arabic literature. I just don't see any link, even a tenuous one.

China and India both had direct contact with the Persians and the Arabs through trade along the Silk Road, and through military conquest and invasion. Japan was certainly far more insular as an island nation (rather like Great Britain) but not completely isolated from outside influences... especially from the Chinese... who were in direct contact with Middle-Eastern cultures.

My own experience with literature outside of the Western Canon... with the Eastern Canon, if you will, is woefully limited comparatively. I will simply accept that Hebrew literature is part of the West as a result of the Judeo-Christian tradition... and subsequent Jewish participation in Western culture. By the same token I'll not speak of a Hellenized or Latinized writer from the Middle East or North Africa (such as Augustine of Hippo) as anything but Western. That leaves the whole rest of the Middle-East, Africa, Asia, Native North and South Americans and anything from the Americas pre- Western conquest. A vast world... and yet I'll admit to having read little from it.

My reading experiences outside of the West are largely indebted to my interests in given cultures as a visual artist. Among the non-Western cultures that have had the greatest impact upon me I would include those of the Middle East (Persia, Turkey, Arab and the Arab/Islamic Empire), China, and Japan. India has only begun to peak my interest with its marvelous temples and sensual paintings and sculpture. But I must admit to having read, as of yet, none of the great Indian texts: Mahabharata, Ramayana, Vedas, Upanishads, etc...:blush: This is somewhat embarrassing if only because of the fact that Indian literature is reportedly the source of a great many of the narratives that eventually work their way into Middle-Eastern and European literature.

My fascination with Middle-Eastern art led to a curiosity about the literature of the culture. Among the strongest works I have read I would count The Arabian Nights or more correctly the Thousand and One Nights (كتاب ألف ليلة وليلة‎ - kitāb 'alf layla wa-layla). Hakīm Abū l-Qāsim Firdawsī Tūsī or Ferdowsi is generally accepted as the greatest Persian poet and his epic Shanameh or Book of Kings is the Persian epic... perhaps second in importance solely to the Qur'an... (which goes without saying as a masterwork of non-Western literature). I have just recently read an acclaimed new translation of the Shanameh, and found it to be a fabulous collection of fables and fantastic narrative. I also enjoyed the Story of Layla and Manjun taken from the Khamsa of the poet Nizami. Of the lyrical poetry of the Middle-East I have certainly read Edward Fitzgerald's translation of the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam... which however heavily colored by his Victorian tastes is certainly a marvelous work. I also have several collections of poems by Hafez (Hafiz), Rumi, Saadi, Jami and others. I especially enjoy Richard le Galliene's translations of Hafiz which avoid the hippy-ish, new-age spirituality crap that so mutilates a lot of the vast body of translations out there... especially of Rumi and Hafiz. Perhaps my favorite work of Arabic lyric poetry is the slim volume entitled Poems of Arab Andalusia translated by Cola Franzen from the Spanish translations from the Arabic made by Emilio Garcia Gomez. These poems were a major source of inspiration for Federico Garcia Lorca, Rafael Alberti, Miguel Hernandez, and other great poets of the 20th century Spanish "Renaissance". I should add that like Virgil I would include Gilgamesh as a non-Western masterwork.

China has a history and a culture to rival any Western nation... and yet remains quite unknown to most of us. I even share a studio with a Chinese artist... and yet hear little of his heritage... probably because his own desire is to become assimilated to Western culture. Chinese literature surely dates from nearly as early as that of the Hebrews... but little survived the reign of the notorious "First Emperor", Qin Shi Huangdi (259 BCE – September 10, 210 BCE) who sought to consolidate his rule by outlawing Confucianism and destroying most books before his time thus establishing himself as the start of history. The Analects of Confucius... which may be problematic with regard to attribution, is still a fascinating bit of "wisdom literature". Among China's greatest prose works one usually hears the discourses of Mencius, The Dream of the Red Chamber, The Three Kingdoms, and The Journey to the West the most highly acclaimed. The highest art form, from my reading... just as it was in Persia... was reserved for poetry. The so-called "golden age" of Chinese poetry was that of the Tang Dynasty (A.D. 618-907) which included poets such as Tu Fu (Du Fu), Li Po (Li Bai), Li Ho, and Wang Wei. To a lesser extent this continued into the Song Dynasty with poets such as Mei Yao Ch'en, Su Tung P'o, Li Ch'ing Chao, Lu Yu, and Ou-Yang Hsiu. The poetry of this period was very elegant... at once formally complex... yet apparently simple... and profoundly intertwined with the art forms of calligraphy and Chen (later "Zen" in Japan) painting in that it often stressed spontaneity, nature, man's place in nature (which was in no way central as in Western culture), and the returning cycles of life. I have greatly enjoyed several volumes of Chinese poetry including the translations by Kenneth Rexroth, Arthur Waley, David Hinton, David Young, Sam Hamill, Tony and Willis Barnestone, etc... Certainly there is no way to go into a discussion in any depth of the vast collection of brilliant lyrical poems and poets. I will simply note that my one of my longest held favorites has been Tu Fu's Jade Flower Palace:

The stream swirls. The wind moans in
The pines. Gray rats scurry over
Broken tiles. What prince, long ago,
Built this palace, standing in
Ruins beside the cliffs? There are
Green ghost fires in the black rooms.
The shattered pavements are all
Washed away. Ten thousand organ
Pipes whistle and roar. The storm
Scatters the red autumn leaves.
His dancing girls are yellow dust.
Their painted cheeks have crumbled
Away. His gold chariots
And courtiers are gone. Only
A stone horse is left of his
Glory. I sit on the grass and
Start a poem, but the pathos of
It overcomes me. The future
Slips imperceptibly away.
Who can say what the years will bring?
tr. by Kenneth Rexroth

This poem has long struck me with its similarity of mood and imagery with Shelley's Ozymandias.

Of all the non-Western cultures it is certainly the Japanese that have had the largest impact upon me as as artist. This should not be surprising as Japan has certainly had the largest influence upon Modern art in general. Japanese Screen painting would inspire the French Impressionists and Post-Impressionists as well as artists such as Gustav Klimt. The impact of Japanese woodblock prints is immense... continuing into the current comic books and anime, and the simplicity, geometry, and respect for natural materials found in Japanese ceramics and architecture are among the greatest influences upon Modern design. The peak of Japanese culture might be divided between the Heian (794 to 1185) and the Edo (1603 to 1868). The Heian period was epitomized by an elegant, courtly style. Many of the greatest works of literature of the period were the product of women writers. The Tale of Genjii by Lady Murasaki is certainly the most highly respected masterwork of Japanese literature if only one considers the wealth of artistic interpretations by painters the work inspired. A romance... or novel exploring familial and court feuds, intrigues, affairs, and power-struggles, the work also lays claim to being the world's first novel. The Pillow Book, by Murasaki's contemporary and rival, Sei Shōnagon is a fascinating collection of court gossip, poetry, and observations painting a marvelous picture of Heian culture. Beside these two women, the Heian period was epitomized by a great array of lyrical poets... including the famous "36 Immortal Poets" who shared the love of nature... a studied and sophisticated appearance of artful ease or simplicity... spontaneity... etc... To this one should note the common element of brevity. Few poems go on for more than a few lines. A special calligraphic style... often referred to as woman's hand because of the many female poets such as Lady Akazome Emon and Lady Ise who utilized the manner... was stunningly artful:


http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k2...alligraphy.jpg

Much of this poetry was brought together into large collections such as the Collection of Ten Thousand Leaves, Kokinshū, and Shin Kokinshū. Translations can be found again by Rexroth, Waley, and others.

The Edo Period represented a resurgence of an absolutely brilliant cultural era. Japanese screen painting of the era was masterful and sophisticated beyond belief. The print makers such as Hokusai, Hiroshige, Utamaro, etc... took an essentially low art form and created sophisticated visual masterworks. Even the erotic/pornographic "Shunga" prints achieved a magnificent artfulness rarely seen in Western erotica. Aubrey Beardsley is a rare example... and he is deeply influenced by Japanese art himself. Edo is also the period of the great Haiku poets such as Kobayashi Issa, Yosa Buson, and Matsuo Bashō. Once again these poets works were often presented in the most elegant of calligraphy which echoed the apparent artlessness and spontaneity of the poems, as in this work by the great painter, Tawaraya Sōtatsu:

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k2.../sotatsu-1.jpg

Again... much that I have read of this literature has been read in collected volumes... although I do have a few volumes by Basho, Issa, and Buson... as well as the later poetess, known for her exquisite erotic poetry and her delicate... perfect... "imagist" style. The manner in which both Japanese and Chinese poetry... and to an extent, Persian/Arabic lyrical poetry... often simply paints a visual image (as opposed to telling a story) intrigues me as I consider the importance of calligraphy in their cultures... and the importance of the visual appearance of text... something that was quite lost in the West after the standardization of letter forms under Charlemagne, and the later development of movable type.

I believe the central problem is additions. The availability of such books in translation is often quite pathetic, given the availability of European literature. The most common books of canonical works available is clearly English novels, then poetry, then Italian, French, German, and Russian works, then perhaps a few more obscure works. I am hard pressed to find a complete volume of Li Po's poetry for cheap, than I am, for instance, able to find a volume of Tennyson, or from that era, Beowulf.

In fact, in the addition I had of his work, the translator made it clear that, though one could convey the meaning of the words in English, the actual writing system is able to add different elements to words in pictures, and as a result, can never be translated. Only the bare minimum of the work can be conveyed in another language.

When we are faced with something like that, it is quite difficult to know what, and how to read, without learning additional languages. As a result, these great works get pushed around.

And I will agree, that Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Arabic, Turkish, Sanskrit, etc. are all different traditions of literature, and cannot be compared the same way English, French, Spanish, Portuguese and German literature can be.

That being said, there is no real Eastern canon, because the list would be too long. The so called Western Canon only features works from maybe 1/6th of the world's population (being generous), and neglects over 5 billion people's cultural heritage. When we start to think of it, the amount of books in that canon cannot possibly fairly equal the amount of works in the Western canon, and as a result linguistic, and regional canons within the concept of the Eastern canon must assemble, so you get something like the Indian/Pakistani canon, or the Chinese/Japanese canon, or something similar. An all encompassing Eastern canon is far beyond hope.


In addition to this, I would like to note that it is also extremely difficult (if impossible) to get volumes on single poets of the Japanese and Chinese traditions, and is far easier to get big anthologies of a period, or a few poets' work. This creates an identity problem, as it is easier to remember something if you have a book of it, than if you have 3 short lyrics of it.

Also, add Kālidāsa to your list of major Sanskrit writers, as he is somewhat of a giant.

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don't you find that a refusal to read the Qur'an is a position that is increasingly unacceptable... if not dangerous in our present world?

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I'm not sure how in what sense to understand "refusal". Me, I've chosen not to read the Koran because-- like many religious texts-- its meaning is fundamentally ambiguous and seems to depend largely on the mindset of the reader. Students who are native Arabic speakers, born into the culture, who have devoted years of intense study to the Koran, come up with diametrically opposite interpretations of the book; so what chance would I have of coming to any kind of meaningful understanding? Is it even possible to come to an "objective understanding" of the Koran, or the Bible?

Does familiarity with the Bible help to explain the actions of Western leaders? Did it ever, even when European kings and princes were not only universally Christian, but universally Roman Catholic?

The fact that so many interpretations of a work can exist shows its depth, not its unimportance. The fact that it is taken as a personal address from Allah doesn't make it a bad book. When you read without the assumption of truth, you are able to generate clearer meanings, as the importance of each sentence isn't taken as fact.

Generally I agree that complexity is a good thing in a text, as are multiple interpretations. But in this case, of trying to relate the actions of people in in the news to the word of the Koran, that complexity and multiplicity just seems to result in confusion.

From the brief excerpts and analyses that I have encountered, it seems that some people find the Koran full of stern warnings, restrictions on behavior, and exhortations to be the sword of God. Other people find it full of love, neighborliness, and understanding. I might find reading the Koran to be an interesting intellectual exercise, but I'm not sure it would shed much light on current events. In that sense, I don't think it can be considered essential reading.

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Originally Posted by JBI

That being said, there is no real Eastern canon, because the list would be too long. The so called Western Canon only features works from maybe 1/6th of the world's population (being generous), and neglects over 5 billion people's cultural heritage. When we start to think of it, the amount of books in that canon cannot possibly fairly equal the amount of works in the Western canon, and as a result linguistic, and regional canons within the concept of the Eastern canon must assemble, so you get something like the Indian/Pakistani canon, or the Chinese/Japanese canon, or something similar. An all encompassing Eastern canon is far beyond hope.

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I completely agree. I don't know enough about the Indian/Pakastani canon, but i would suspect that there might not be a Chinese/Japanese canon either. Though perhaps I could be persuaded otherwise.

Oh, the Japanese and Chinese canons exist within Chinese and Japanese culture, as they are part of their education system. If I recall correctly, at the high school level Japanese students are required to memorize 100s of poems. The Chinese have a similar system. Their canons are heavily developed. The reason why I grouped them together is because in the classical period, there was an exchange of poetry, as both languages used the classical Chinese alphabet, and therefore could be read without translation (though with different pronunciation).

As much as people like to gripe and whine about the impossibility of translation, if your native language is English, you will have no trouble finding many excellent translations of any major French, Spanish, Russian, or Italian work. There are so many good translations out there it's an embarrassment of riches. You just have to look for them. German's a little harder, but there are dozens of different translations of Faust alone; so at least one of them's bound to satisfy even the pickiest of dilettantes. But when I want to read Chinese and Japanese literature Rexroth and Waley are about the only show in town. Disgraceful. I wouldn't say that their translations are bad, but they aren't anywhere near the level I've come to expect from French or Italian.

As for StLukes ringing endorsement of The Shahnameh, I have to concur. What I've read is equal parts Dante and Homer. However, the only complete translation is the prose one he read by Dick Davis. What I've read from it is good, but doesn't begin to compare to the verse translation still in progress by Jerome W. Clinton. He's come out with two short books about a hundred and twenty pages each. These translations are obviously a labor of love, and remind me of Edward Fitzgerald's Rubaiyat they are so good. It will probably take Clinton the better part of thirty years to finish his work, but it might be worth the wait.

Although I've only read a couple dozen of Tu Fu's poems, they've never reminded me of Shelley. I thought they were better. Li Po seems to be more romantic in tone and style if you want to make those kinds of comparisons. I'm still looking for a good translation of either poet though. Wang Wei, and Po Chu-i are also very nice.

From what I've heard, the position held by Confucius and Mencius in the East is a little like the one Plato and Aristotle hold in the West. I haven't read Mencius yet, but while the Annalects were great they were no Republic. The Annalects of Confucius actually reminded me more of The Meditations of Marcus Aurelius or The Maxims of La Rochefoucauld and not so much of a structured fully realized philosophical system.

I have a couple of these big Eastern novels on my bookshelf which I've only dipped into: Three Kingdoms, Red Chamber, and Genji. They all look nice in their own way, but I'm still searching for a handle to grip them by. I could read Tolstoy's War and Peace with relative ease because I'd already read a bunch of other Russian classics, and had extensive practice reading the modern work his books influenced. But these are all so different than anything I've read before, it's hard to know what effect they are aiming at with each word or phrase. What am I supposed to take away from the books? What tradition are they writing in? Or maybe I'm just being lazy and making problems for myself because I'd rather read ten short books than one long one.

As it stands, I thought the prose of The Pillow Book and Essays in Idleness were much more interesting, showed more human character, and dare I say "warmth" than Murasaki's Genji.

The Bhagavad Gita is probably essential Eastern reading and I'd add to that Kalidasa's plays, specifically Shakuntala and the Ring of Recollection.

If you want a good answer to "What middle eastern texts are we missing out on?" then you should probably ask Kafka's Crow. Aside from having like two masters degrees in literature, I think he told me once that he was Persian. He'd doubtless have some excellent advice. Here's some things he told me about Persian literature five months ago.

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Originally Posted by Kafka's Crow

Though out of touch for over two decades, I could once read and write Persian, did an A Level in classical Persian Literature and enjoyed poetry no end. Firdawsi, Jaami, Nizaami, Hafiz, Roodki, Saadi, Omer Khayyam, the list goes on. I think it was Roodki, the blind poet who, when Sultan Mehmood of Ghazna asked him the price of his kingdom, the poet answered, 'a mole on my beloved's cheek.' (khaal i rukhsaar i yaar i mun). These people take great pride in their poetic heritage and quite rightly so. There are still people around who would not consider you educated unless you have read Gulistan and Bostaan by Saadi Shirazi. I hope we find a native speaker of Persian on this board. The common parlance is full of poetic anecdotes and even people on the streets know couplets by heart. Four hundred years before da Vinci, true 'renaissance men' or polymaths like Omer Khayyam, the poet, philosopher, astronomer and mathematician, lived in Persia or Iran. Persian poetry is a treasure trove of artistic achievement.

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Originally Posted by Kafka's Crow

Shahnama for the epic grandeur, Hafiz and Saadi for wisdom, Rumi for the mysticism, Roodki for lyricism, Khayyam for the atmosphere in his Rubaiyaat.

...If you find time, read 'The Blind Owl' a novella by Sadeq Hedayat. Scary stuff! You can read it here:

http://www.angelfire.com/rnb/bashiri.../blindowl.html

There is still a strong tradition of oratory and poetry recitation in Iran, thanks to the high status of the genre called 'mersiya' or elegy written on the martyrdom of Prophets grandsons for which mourning is observed annually for forty days. 'Mersiya' employs the most elevated diction, grand style and requires a lot of oratory skills for its recitation. You may not agree but Persian is for poetry like English is for drama, or Russian and French for the novel. Poetry is an integral part of this language.

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Originally Posted by JBI

Oh, the Japanese and Chinese canons exist within Chinese and Japanese culture, as they are part of their education system. If I recall correctly, at the high school level Japanese students are required to memorize 100s of poems. The Chinese have a similar system. Their canons are heavily developed. The reason why I grouped them together is because in the classical period, there was an exchange of poetry, as both languages used the classical Chinese alphabet, and therefore could be read without translation (though with different pronunciation).

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Yes, I forgot to mention that for about a thousand years, like 0-1000 AD, there wasn't any difference between Chinese and Japanese literature. Everyone wrote in Chinese the way that during the same time period every western writer wrote in Latin. It's only in the second millennium that you get cultural divergence. Selling people on an all encompassing Eastern canon might be difficult but a China/Japan canon wouldn't be a harder sale than a comprehensive Western canon.

P.S. I know my dates are sloppy above, and I use the Gregorian calendar, not the Chinese calendar, for convenience.

I went to see that western cannon, and the omission of Boethius' Consolation of Philosophy is absolutely unacceptable as it one of the most fundamental works of European literature. Also the bias toward English literature is far from being subtle. Has an author like, for example John Ford had such an important impact on Western culture? Over many omission from the Middle-Ages and Antiquity. Also there seems to be a strange inclusion of some works of philosophy, while leaving some of the most important out. I noticed also the omission of Juan Rulfo, probably the most important figure of Latin-American literature alongside Garcia Marquez and Borges...

In the end, I think calling this The Western Cannon is quite presumptuous (and why is Ancient India included?) I'd rather call it Harold's Little Melting Pot.

You forget, he is one person, not an army. It is a pretty good list for a one man effort, especially up until 1900. The 20th century list is where the trouble occurs.

Of course, works that shouldn't be omitted are, but we must not only read from that list. Clearly philosophy is not really included, and only cliché philosophers, like Nietzsche and Kant made the list, while Aquinas (who is even bigger than Boethius) didn't.

The list serves its purpose as an appendix, and was never meant to be taken as the core of the book. The canons mentioned in the body of the book of criticism are the core of the critical book, whereas the list just gains more credit. Either way, sadly to say the "Western canon" in America, and Canada, is essentially the books available at a decent price that have lasted since the death of their original readers (meaning essentially written before 1940).

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Originally Posted by JBI

while Aquinas (who is even bigger than Boethius) didn't.

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I was not even thinking of the philosophical scope of Boethius' work but of the literary one, since this list was obviously not a philosophical one, however, even on the philosophical level I would think twice before placing Aquinas over Boethius, considering that his influence of his work goes on up to the 12th century as a central part of European philosophy. The Consolation of Philosophy has often been considered the single most important work of European Literature. It's direct influence is well illustrated in Chaucer (who also made a translation of the Consolation of Philosophy) or Dante (who cites the Consolation regularly in his Divine Comedy), etc. How such a work could have been omitted by a so-called expert is beyond my understanding, not more forgivable than forgetting the Divine Comedy, Don Quixote, Gargantua and Pantagruel, Shakespeare plays or the Bible.

I went back to watch the list and I'm baffled at the number of omissions (Diderot's Jacques and his Master?, Hugo's Legend of Centuries? - he did put an essay on Shakespeare though *cough*, where is Villiers de l'Isle-Adam? de Lautreamont? etc.) - in places where I am knowledgeable enough to pinpoint them and that excludes quite a good part of the list. So in the end, this list which I've seen so much praise about, while it has a good core look to me more like the work of an amateur who has done some research than the serious work of a real expert, he might be an expert in say, English literature, but then he should leave "western" literature or world literature, or whatever to some other people, or call his list of a perhaps less presumptuous name.

The availability of such books in translation is often quite pathetic, given the availability of European literature. The most common books of canonical works available is clearly English novels, then poetry, then Italian, French, German, and Russian works, then perhaps a few more obscure works. I am hard pressed to find a complete volume of Li Po's poetry for cheap, than I am, for instance, able to find a volume of Tennyson, or from that era, Beowulf.

Yes. Translations... or rather good translations of even the best writers can be difficult to come across. There's a lot of sappy "new-age" translations of key Eastern religious texts... a remnant of the hippie fascination with Eastern mysticism. Things are improving and there seem to be more quality translations being made of the central works of the various Eastern cultures... still we are limited to but a fraction of the work that surely must exist.

In fact, in the edition I had of his work, the translator made it clear that, though one could convey the meaning of the words in English, the actual writing system is able to add different elements to words in pictures, and as a result, can never be translated. Only the bare minimum of the work can be conveyed in another language.

Yes... something is always lost in translation. The best we can hope for is that a good translation succeeds like a good transcription of music from one instrument (or group of instruments) to another... preserving the music... and giving it voice in a new vocabulary... hoping to preserve the music in spite of the fact that not every instrument can play the same notes.

I have read a bit upon what I believe you are speaking of with relation to Chinese poetry. As a pictographic language Chinese (and as a result of shared symbols, Japanese) poetry often uses forms of visual parallelism... where an image in one line may echo (or contrast) an image in another line. It's far more complex than mere rhyming due to the pictographic nature of the language. In this manner it may be "read" not merely in a linear manner... but also across the whole work where a parallel might be perceived in a manner closer to how we might "read" a painting. The actual "writing" of the poem or calligraphy added further to the experience as such could be used to emphasize certain words/images through scale and handling. Most poets were also masters of calligraphy and often painters as well. Surprisingly very few Western authors have toyed with the visual impact of the written/printed poem. William Blake is the most obvious example... and then there's Apollinaire and Mallarme's Un coup de dés jamais n’abolira le hasard... in which he attempted something upon this level.

In addition to this, I would like to note that it is also extremely difficult (if impossible) to get volumes on single poets of the Japanese and Chinese traditions, and is far easier to get big anthologies of a period, or a few poets' work. This creates an identity problem, as it is easier to remember something if you have a book of it, than if you have 3 short lyrics of it.

Again... this is beginning to change. I have solid volumes on Tu Fu, Wang Wei, Hafiz, Rumi, Yosano Akiko, Ou-Yang Hsiu, Basho, Buson, and a few others... and I have seen strong editions of works by Lao-Tzu, Li Po, T'ao Ch'ien, Masaoka Shiki, Ryokan, and others. Part of the "problem" here is that many of these poems were originally collected as part of large anthologies... perhaps not unlike the manner in which the Hebrew Psalms... certainly the product of multiple hands... were collected into a single "canonical" volume. For example, in Japan the collection known as Man'yoshu or the "Ten Thousand Leaves" is still read as a unified whole (the entire collection can be found in several places on line). China has similar canonical anthologies such as the Shi Jing or "Book of Songs", which exists in translation by Arthur Waley. I somewhat suspect that part of the "problem" here is that in China and Japan there is a somewhat selfless world view that lacks the Western ego and desire for recognition and is closer to the medieval philosophy in which the artist loses himself in the higher purpose of the work.

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Originally Posted by JBI

Oh, the Japanese and Chinese canons exist within Chinese and Japanese culture, as they are part of their education system. If I recall correctly, at the high school level Japanese students are required to memorize 100s of poems. The Chinese have a similar system. Their canons are heavily developed. The reason why I grouped them together is because in the classical period, there was an exchange of poetry, as both languages used the classical Chinese alphabet, and therefore could be read without translation (though with different pronunciation).

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Thank you JBI.

St. Luke's--There you go again, adding more things to my reading list! Great idea for a thread. I'll have to note some of these works for future reading when I'm not quite so enveloped in a dissertation planted deep in the heart of the Western Canon (whatever that may be). Don't really have anything to add here, having only read some pitifully small slices of Asian and Middle Eastern Lit., but I'll look forward to seeing what people recommend here. I do think translation is a particular problem with Asian languages, especially when it comes to poetry, and especially because there's such a huge gap between those languages and English. I'm sure there's a whole amazing world of literary experience I'm completely cut out of because of the language gap. I'll just have to end the frustration one of these days by learning Japanese, Chinese and Arabic and...ah for world enough and time. :p

The question though Etienne, is whether or not such a list can exist, or whether we must except the fact that we are ethnocentric, and can only read the most cliché works of other cultures (that's what I get out of 90% of his Italian list). A more obvious exclusion though, would probably Cavalcanti, and also almost the entire Medieval tradition cross-continent. You must give him credit though for having the nerve to make such a list in light of this fact. Though I think the problem with the list is that it isn't a list, and more a "suggest reading". It is, after all, smashed into the back of the book, and without commentary.

Etienne- "I was not even thinking of the philosophical scope of Boethius' work but of the literary one, since this list was obviously not a philosophical one, however, even on the philosophical level I would think twice before placing Aquinas over Boethius, considering that his influence of his work goes on up to the 12th century as a central part of European philosophy. The Consolation of Philosophy has often been considered the single most important work of European Literature."

Obviously this is debatable. Looking on the list of the 100 Most Influential Books Ever Written from the book of the same title by Martin Seymour-Smith one finds Boethius again slighted, while there are numerous other books that are also excluded from Bloom's "canon": Elements- Euclid, Allegorical Expositions of the Holy Laws-Philo of Alexandria,
Annals, from the Death of the Divine Augustus-Cornelius Tacitus,
Meditations-Marcus Aurelius, Outlines of Pyrrhonism-Sextus Empiricus, Guide for the Perplexed-Moses Maimonides, The Kabbalah, Summa Theologicae-Thomas Aquinas, On the Babylonian Captivity of the Church-Martin Luther, Institutes of the Christian Religion-John Calvin, On the Revolution of the Celestial Orbs- Nicolaus Copernicus, The Harmony of the World- Johannes Kepler, Novum Organum- Francis Bacon, Works-Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz, Ethics- Baruch de Spinoza, Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy-Isaac Newton, The Encyclopedia- Denis Diderot, ed., A Dictionary of the English Language- Samuel Johnson, etc...

Bloom admits that his criteria is essentially aesthetic and that he has left of many important books of philosophical, scientific, and historical interest that are not, in his opinion, of great aesthetic merit. he also admits that he has excluded many Greek and Latin texts of real merit as they are probably outside of the reading scope of all but specialists. As JBI and I have suggested before Bloom has simply provided a list (in a mere appendix that was part of a larger work of essays upon major "canonical" writers) that provides what may be the most complete canon of Western literature for the English-language audience. Undoubtedly the list has its flaws. There are books that I think are glaring omissions and others whose inclusion I question. Undoubtedly it is also Anglo-centric... but no less so than a similar list compiled by a University department in France or Germany would favor French or German-language literature. It is also, as I have noted before, out of necessity. The truly interested reader can easily... even through the use of the internet... scope out a far more in-depth list of French, German, Spanish, or Italian literature... but to what avail? Without a mastery of these languages it is next to impossible to experience writers such as Sully Prudhomme, Alfred Victor de Vigny, Leconte de Lisle, José María de Heredia, Villiers de l'Isle-Adam, Rosalía de Castro, José de Espronceda, Diego Hurtado de Mendoza, Íñigo López de Mendoza, etc... Undoubtedly many of these writers are equal to such English-language figures as Thomas Wyatt, Sir Walter Raleigh, Andrew Marvell, etc... but without an access to the language only the most central canonical figures can be experienced: Baudelaire, Rimbaud, Hugo, Cervantes, Lorca, Machado, San Juan de la Cruz, etc... Hell... it hasn't been until just recently that there has even been a decent translation available of a figure as central to Spanish literature as Gongora. Anyway... why are we once again disputing what is and is not part of the Western Canon in a thread directed specifically at the Eastern Canon? I guess it proves my initial supposition that we are all quite ethnocentric as illustrated by our ignorance of an entire universe outside of our own.

By the way... I'm doing my part... however small it may be... to rectify my own ignorance. I'm reading Stephen Mitchell's translation of the Tao Te Ching.:lol: It seems to have earned solid reviews... and I have been quite pleased with other Mitchell translations.

I am currently reading a good deal of Asian poetry... and focusing upon Japanese at the present. As I've read a bit in anthologies and on-line I am surprised to discover how poorly represented Japanese poetry is. One can only readily find English translations of a few Japanese poets. Beside late 19th and 20th century poets such as Masaoka Shiki and Yosano Akiko the only anthologies of poetry by Japanese poets are those of Haiku masters such as Kobayashi Issa, Yosa Buson, and Matsuo Bashō are readily available... with the exception of a volume of poetry by the two women poets of the "classical" Heian era, Onono Komachi and Izumi Shikibu. Haiku, it seems, is often what is first thought of as the stereotypical Japanese poetry... and it is what is fashionable most in Western translation. Kenneth Rexroth, among others, suggest that for all the merit of the great haiku poets, neither they... nor the poetry of that era are anywhere near the finest examples of Japanese poetry. Indeed, Rexroth suggests haiku is largely a decadent style... and another writer on line notes that haiku actually grew out of a poetic form known as renga, which itself evolved as a result of the ossification of the earlier tanka, and involved linking verses by two or more poets in a manner not unlike the exquisite corpse of Surrealism. The initial poet would provide 3 lines of 5, 7, and 5 sylables, and the next poet would add another two lines... each of 7 syllables. This collaborative improvisation could extend to hundreds of lines... but eventually the initial 5-7-5 became a form in and of itself.

Anyway... little is to be found outside anthologies of multiple poets of earlier "classical" poetry... this in spite of the fact that figures such as Yomabe No Akahito, Kakinomoto No Hitomoro, Izumi Shikibu, Onono Komachi, Lady Ise, and numerous others... including the so-called "36 Immortal Poets" are considered to be the greatest figures of Japanese poetry.

As I have been reading Rexroth's collection of Japanese poetry I have been struck by the great intensity and compression of the work... the focus or isolation of concern upon what Ezra Pound terms "the luminous details"... the focus upon a single image as opposed to any suggestion of narrative or drawn out discourse. In a way, Japanese poetry reminds me of little else than perhaps some early Greek lyrical poetry (Sapho and the Anthology), Imagist poetry, some Symbolist work... especially Mallarme... and Rilke's "thing poems" (dinggedichte) of such collections as The Book of Images and New Poems.

Among some of the Japanese poems that struck me I will include a few:

I wish I were close
To you as the wet skirt of
A salt girl to her body.
I think of you always.

-Yomabe No Akahito

In a gust of wind the white dew
On the autumn grass
Scatters like a broken necklace.

-Bunya No Asayasu

In the empty mountains
The leaves of the bamboo grass
Rustle in the wind.
I think of a girl
Who is not here.

-Kakinomoto No Hitomaro

Of course these exquisite, delicate images were given even further impact by the manner in which they were rendered in the most graceful of calligraphy and often illuminated with a spontaneous or improvisational painted imagery as well:

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k2.../sotatsu-1.jpg

One of the most marvelous examples must be found in the collaboartive efforts of the calligrapher Hon'ami Koetsu and painter Tawaraya Sōtatsu illuminating a collection of poetry by various poets:

http://www.seattleartmuseum.org/exhi...oll/enter.asp#

This interactive site allows you to scroll through the work, gives translations of the poetry and close-ups of the art.

Another great site I have found is here:

http://www.temcauley.staff.shef.ac.u...oduction.shtml

This site offers a huge collection of Japanese poetry given in the original Japanese/Chinese characters, in Romaji text (in which the Japanese pronunciations are written out in the Western/Latin letters) and then an English translation. The site has quite an extensive collection of poetry from the major Japanese anthologies.

StLukes, you may find this book interesting:
http://www.amazon.com/Traditional-Ja...9296988&sr=8-1
I recently grabbed a copy from my library and am finding it (I am about half way through) quite enjoyable. the extensive notes on periods, publications, and poets, in addition to extensive footnotes, and a rōmaji rendering of the poems to allow the reader to experience somewhat of the feel of the original.

This, to me, is the most definitive works of classical Japanese poetry available I can find. I'm unsure if it is worth $30, but if you can get a copy from the library, it is very well worth looking into.

Also, this book may be of interest to you;
http://www.amazon.com/Loom-Time-Sele...9297647&sr=1-1
It's a nice collection of works by Kalidasa (I am unable to find a thicker, more inclusive book of this masterpoet's works). Inside are one play, and two long poems. The notes and introductions as well are quite extensive and informative (spanning 90 pages) and provide a nice background and scholarly aspect to the book.

JBI... Yes, I have the Traditional Japanese Poetry on my wish list. The list price doesn't seem at all outrageous considering the size of the book and the fact that most volumes of poetry in translation run $10-15 for 100 pages or a bit more. I've added Kalidasa to my wish list. Thanks for the tip.:thumbs_up

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Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love

ah for world enough and time. :p

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Too true.

All of this thread has made very interesting reading in itself, though perhaps only highlighting how far behind I am in my reading. Of course that means there is a world still yet to discover.

“Wisest is he who knows he does not know” as Socrates said, or is said to have said.

Bump!

:) thanks!

I'm interested in seeing if anyone on the forum knows much about African Literature... I see lots about Far Eastern Lit (Japanese, Chinese, etc)... and also India has surged to a certain extent in the West recently, and then Latin America as well... but it seems there is an enormous body of work in Africa waiting to be discovered... I guess the same could be said for much of the Middle East, as it has for the most part been largely ignored by the west as well...

I've wondered too, if there are certain tendencies, lifestyles, ideas, philosophies, psychologies, stylistic differences, etc. that make it hard, even in translation, for Westerners to identify with Literature from some areas of the world? any thoughts on this?

Again, I think that questions of lifestyles, philosophies, religion, etc... have little to do with our exposure to the literature of other cultures. Certainly most cultures will be largely centered in their own traditions and in the US this has largely meant absorbing or even co-opting the traditions of Europe... especially Britain. But even that is but to a limited extent. Really it is the access to translations... good translations... that is the key. We may have a limited access to African, Chinese, Japanese, Indian, and Persian literature in the US... but in reality we don't do much better with regard to Polish, Czech, Hungarian, Dannish, Swedish, Finnish, Belgian, Dutch, etc... The reality is that it is far more likely that an American or British academic or writer will be well versed in French, German, Spanish, Italian, Russian... or the "classic" Greek, Latin, and Hebrew. Obviously when one is attracted to learning a second language consideration must include "getting the most bang for the buck". Thus issues of military, economic, and cultural prominence come into play. It makes more sense to learn Japanese or Italian considering their economic and/or cultural importance than it does to learn Hungarian. Consequently, as there are far more academics/writers fluent in a given language it is far more likely that we will be blessed with competent translations of literature in those languages.

Of course things change. I'd almost guess that in the 19th century there were few translations of Russian literature available in English. As Russia/the Soviet Union rose to prominence, the language became a necessity. The same has happened with Japan (I have more Japanese literature by far than Dutch/Belgian. Am I to believe that the culture that produced Rembrandt, Rubens, Van Eyck, Van der Weyden, Vermeer, Hals, Van Gogh, even Mondrian produced no literature of any lasting merit?). It is currently happening with China and Arabic literature. There is perhaps something of a realization that in both instances it is something of a liability to remain ignorant of these cultures and their language.

I would suggest that Spanish is far more central to America than it is to Canada or Britain due to our borders and relationships with Central and South America. Undoubtedly French is far more important to our neighbors to the North (JBI?) and perhaps even Britain. I know that my collection of Spanish writers rivals that of French and German which are surely the largest after English. I definitely come upon translation of Spanish works written in the last 50 years far more often than I come upon German or French literature from the same period.