Similarities wih Coketown

I started reading North and South. I see it was published in 1855, about a year after Hard Times by Charles Dickens. It has some on the same concerns. For example, Margaret is horrified when her father tells her he plans to leave the beautiful country parsonage to become a private tutor in a northern manufacturing town:

"A private tutor!" said Margaret, looking scornful: "What in the world do manufacturers want with the classics, or literature, or the accomplishments of a gentleman?"

"Oh," said her father, "some of them really seem to be fine fellows, conscious of their own deficiencies, which is more than many a man at Oxford is. Some want resolutely to learn, though they have come to man's estate. Some want their children to be better instructed than they themselves have been..."

Presumably not men like Mr Gradgrind and Mr Bounderby from Hard Times.

I thought the writing style seemed quite modern, maybe a bit like Anne Tyler. It has familiar 19th century themes, for example, fear of poverty, marrying for money versus marrying for love.

One bit made me laugh out though, because it was self-parodying:


"Where are we to go to?" said she at last, struck with fresh wonder as to their future plans, if plans, indeed, her father had.

"To Milton-Northern," he answered, with a dull indifference, for he perceived that, although his daughter's love had mader her cling to him, and for a moment strive to soothe him with her love, yet the keenness of the pain was as fresh as ever in her mind.

"Milton-Northern! The manufacturing town in Darkshire?"

"Yes," said he, in the same despondent, indifferent way.

Milton-Northern in Darkshire, I ask you :rofl:

I am quite enjoying this book. I am only about fifteen chapters in. It is actually more what I thought Hard Times would be like. On the one hand, in the south, were a class of people who inherited money, property and class, and who gave all their younger sons a classical education so that they could make their way in the professions. On the other hand, there was a new class of semi-educated, self-made men who had become rich through manufacturing. These bosses had not acquired the polish that would enable them to fit in with the more traditional moneyed classes, neither did they count a classical education for much, and they were proud of their own achievements. On the other hand, it could be argued that they had become rich by exploiting their workers, who were subject to poor housing and a polluted living conditions, poor pay, long hours and unhealthy working conditions. I often get the impression reading Victorian literature that many people felt shame, discomfort and guilt when comparing their circumstances with others'. They might feel sympathy with the poor, but would hardly wish to join them by impoverishing themselves. The new bosses, however, might think that their employees might have done what I have done if they had had more resolve. They might think they were providing employment. They might feel less discomfort dealing with the hands because they came from the same class and used to work with their hands themselves. Hard Times did not explore all these conflicts for my money. It seemed more concerned with education.

North and South previously appeared in 20 weekly episodes from September 1854 to January 1855 in Household Words, edited by Charles Dickens. Hard Times was published in the same journal from April to August 1854. The Wikipedia page on the interaction between Gaskell & Dickens is interesting. Sales of the magazine dropped enough that Dickens complained of Gaskell's lack of flexibility (intractability), resisting demands for conciseness. He is stated as finding the story "wearisome to the last degree". I think that's a bit unfair. I don't think Gaskell has the energy, or inspired characters, of Dickens (who does!) But I found the novel a good read and, as you say, went into greater depth, and breadth, on some of the issues.

Interestingly, Gaskell would have preferred to call the novel Margaret Hale. Dickens imposed the title North & South. Is this a bit churlish of Dickens? He often used the name of his main character as the title. On the other hand, I think North & South is a great title!

Gaskell does strong women very well. I'd love to have been a fly on the wall in the editorial meetings between Gaskell & Dickens.

I think I read that entry too. I think North and South is a great title myself. I have not reached the end of North and South so I cannot say whether it peters out, but so far, I think it's great. The only aspects of Hard Times I think were better in 1) the passage in which Mr Gradgrind tells his daughter of Mr Bounderby's proposal, and 2) Mr Bounderby himself. I could see and hear Mr Bounderby braying in his Lancashire accent as if he were in the room.