Thirteen Reasons Why by Jay Asher

Clay Jensen arrives home one day to find a package waiting for him. The box contains tape cassettes. When he starts to play the first tape, he is startled to hear the voice of Hannah Baker, a girl that he had cared about who committed suicide. Before she died, she made a list of thirteen people she wanted to hear these tapes. These thirteen each gave her a reason, she claims, to kill herself. The rules are simple. They will listen to the tapes. Then they will send the package to the next person on the list after them. If they fail to do this, there is a second group of tapes that will be made public. She assures them that they are being watched.

Clay Jensen cannot imagine why he has made this list. It tortures him as he listens to Hannah relive painful memories. He had liked her. He had tried to reach out to her, but she had rejected him. Then she was dead.

This book reminded me a lot of how a horror movie unfolds. It isn't really a happy read, and you wonder whether you want to continue. It can only get worse, right? Yet, just like you are never sure whether you want the person to open the door in a horror movie, you keep reading because you want to know what happens next. You are just as interested as Clay is about how he made Hannah's list...and why she killed herself.

My feelings about Hannah were rather mixed. I understood how humiliating some of the things said or done by her fellow classmates (in high school) upset her. We've all been there, and at the time--high school is our whole world. I used to consider suicide too, and I am very glad I didn't do it...because the people that upset me so much then, I don't even remember their names anymore. Yet, as critical as Hannah is of other people, she is guilty of much more terrible things. Though she acknowledges this, her acts rather overshadow some of the offenses of her classmates. Of course, a depressed person can feel powerless to stop something--and perhaps she did fear for her own life.

The book also deals with the stigma of suicide, and how that sometimes makes it difficult for people to get the help they need. There is a lot of anger about it, and many people believe it is a tactic to get attention. Of course, perhaps that is the case...but when we want help, we usually do need attention. I discussed this with my mom, and I was shocked when she said, "Suicide is for those who want to have the last word. It is the ultimate act of selfishness."

The book was definitely a page turner. I sometimes got confused because it has two narratives that interweave. You have to pay attention to what is in italics (which is Hannah's narrative) and what is written in regular type (Clay's narrative). It held together really well. It won't leave you with a warm, fuzzy feeling...but it may provoke some thought about how you feel about things.

The most important moral of the book, I believe--which is Hannah is correct about--is how we impact other people's lives without knowing it, for better or for worse. We don't know what is going on in other people's lives. An insult or hurtful act can snowball into larger unforseen consequences. Of course, Hannah had more bad luck than I really think most people would have. However, the moral is true regardless.

I don't think a truly suicidal, depressed person wants attention before the act. That would be threatening, that is, calling for help. However, it is obvious that the person wants attention after the act. The great difficulty in treating suicidal depression is that those who are going to do it will never tell you.
I tend to agree with your mom: ultimate selfishness is present.
Haven't read the book but I'll put it on my wish list. Thanks for sharing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SilentMute

how we impact other people's lives without knowing it, for better or for worse. We don't know what is going on in other people's lives. An insult or hurtful act can snowball into larger unforseen consequences. .

---

I like this statement and this sparks some deep reality all of us must be aware of in our behavior with our fellow beings. Thank you SilentMute for educating me on this great issue.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by osho

I like this statement and this sparks some deep reality all of us must be aware of in our behavior with our fellow beings. Thank you SilentMute for educating me on this great issue.

---

Well, I'm passing on the message really. However, while I didn't always approve of Hannah Baker, what did hit me is how our actions can impact other people positively or negatively. A lot of the things Hannah's classmates did were just stupid, juvenile things...and yet they could have much deeper consequences. It has made me try to be more careful about how I act...though I have to admit that it requires constant vigilance...and I'm not always that self-aware.

I've heard that before, that suicide is a selfish act, but I'm not sure I wholly agree. I guess it is, but I have experienced, in a loved one, the fallout of severe depression, and they are so miserable, so profoundly unhappy, that they are unable, really, to think of anything else. I've heard also, that the great irony of successful depression, is that they often feel better when they make the decision to commit suicide because they have made the decision. They have, finally, pulled themselves together enough to make a plan.

So while it is selfish, it's not like normal people selfish, people you would call 'jerk' and stand in judgement on. Great compassion is called for, as you all have made mention of. To quote "Death of a Salesman," "Attention must be paid!"

True. That was what I tried to keep in mind with Hannah.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SilentMute

True. That was what I tried to keep in mind with Hannah.

---

I keep the mind of Hannah in mind. The big revenge. I agree with your mom.

Mental illness is difficult. Actually, physical illness is not that much fun either. Contrary to how movies portray it, it really does not bring out the best in people. I come from a family that suffers from both mental and physical illness, and while I probably have a very mild case...I struggle with my own mental demons.

When my mentality gets bad, I often think everyone is against me--despite proof to the contrary. There is plenty of proof too. People actually really like me in real life. In fact, it gets difficult to do errands because I have so many people coming up to talk to me sometimes. Sometimes even when they act like jerks to me, it is because they like me--and they are trying to break through my wall.

I hate how I am during the bad times. I realize I indulge thoughts that are not true, and I see my own selfishness. I consider my problems mild because I do see this, and if I was worse--I don't think I would. However, I agree that some compassion is necessary. I don't know why my brain does the things it does. I've been trying to fix it for years, and I have made some improvements. However, I still have bad times. You think you should have control, and yet it certainly doesn't feel that way.

I've also been a caretaker of mentally ill/physically ill people--and that was also very frustrating. You try to be understanding, but the stress can really get to you after a while. You try so hard, and yet to them you aren't doing anything. In the book, one of the last things that Hannah said was that people did care...just not enough. This wasn't true. Hannah was expecting a different reaction than the one she got. However, I don't know if her expectations were realistic or even appropriate. That is really the problem with mental illness. A person's mind is warped, and so what they consider appropriate behavior tends to be warped as well. People may care, but unless they are just as sick as the person is, they aren't going to behave the way the person wants.

My stepfather, for example, had been sexually abused by his mother. This really messed him up because he grew up thinking that was normal behavior, and that was how a mother expresses love. His concept of love became perverted. When a person showed "normal" love to him, he couldn't recognize it. So in order for these people to recognize that people care about them, they need to be reprogrammed...and I don't know if psychiatry really has came up with effective methods on how to do that.

Sometimes I think it is a shame that we don't have the inventions they have in sci-fi movies where you can erase people's memories and give them new ones. Then again, perhaps this is how the world keeps itself in balance...perhaps this is how we evolve...and maybe we would be interfering with something more important if we did this. It would be a short term gain, long term loss type of thing.

I find what you are saying very very interesting, and that you composed it of very good quality and clear. I seems that in studying these issues you have become a very good psychologist. I understand what you are saying about the mentally ill not knowing why. Thanks for sharing.

You know what is really depressing? Psychiatrists give you the idea that if you get to the root of a problem, that you can get power over it--banish it. This is true with things outside of your mind. If you are in an abusive relationship, for example, you may be able to get to a point where you can end it and stop getting into relationships like that. However, I haven't found that learning the cause of my problems has really helped me overcome them. I find particularly the things that happen to us when we are young really is influential.

It is a shame because many child abusers justify their actions by saying "she/he is too young to remember this". I think society often downplays the harm child abuse does as well. From what I've observed in myself and in others, though, it causes very deep-rooted problems that are just nearly impossible to overcome. I say "nearly" because I remain optimistic that it is possible.

I think you are correct about the little power one has in finding the so-called root which incidentally might not even be THE ROOT. In this world we have to live in, anyone who claims that a child doesn't get mentally ill doesn't know the struggle children go through in order to be liberated. I remember clearly what happened to me after having realized that I had a mental problem. Although it helped deal with it, it was never enough to stop it at once. There is an inertia to the habit. It is a struggle. It is a process of idealization and approximation. We function that way. We find the problem and then idealize the solution. But we miss and learn what we miss slowly. There is improvement in our design by testing the results of our idealization which eventually takes us to a re-idealization and better approximation to our goal. And so on...idealization, approximation, and re-idealization. It is in the process that we get better and better at handling the problem, regardless of the so-called ROOT. We miss the whole and we approximate and approximate with better design in accordance with what we learn from each approximation and re-idealization (re-design of the approach). Even as the old man I am, there are leftovers that come to me every once in a while. You are correct. I hope I have thrown some light in what I think is the process. This is a psychological theme. Psychiatry might be and is pretty good at stopping immediate biological consequences, but we still need to go through the psychological process of designing and re-designing the solution. However psychological, this is a very scientific procedure. Development in any way whatsoever implies the process I'm talking about. In the lab it is called breadboarding, testing, and breadboading again with a better approximation until the goal is achieved.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cafolini

I think you are correct about the little power one has in finding the so-called root which incidentally might not even be THE ROOT. In this world we have to live in, anyone who claims that a child doesn't get mentally ill doesn't know the struggle children go through in order to be liberated. I remember clearly what happened to me after having realized that I had a mental problem. Although it helped deal with it, it was never enough to stop it at once. There is an inertia to the habit. It is a struggle. It is a process of idealization and approximation. We function that way. We find the problem and then idealize the solution. But we miss and learn what we miss slowly. There is improvement in our design by testing the results of our idealization which eventually takes us to a re-idealization and better approximation to our goal. And so on...idealization, approximation, and re-idealization. It is in the process that we get better and better at handling the problem, regardless of the so-called ROOT. We miss the whole and we approximate and approximate with better design in accordance with what we learn from each approximation and re-idealization (re-design of the approach). Even as the old man I am, there are leftovers that come to me every once in a while. You are correct. I hope I have thrown some light in what I think is the process. This is a psychological theme. Psychiatry might be and is pretty good at stopping immediate biological consequences, but we still need to go through the psychological process of designing and re-designing the solution. However psychological, this is a very scientific procedure. Development in any way whatsoever implies the process I'm talking about. In the lab it is called breadboarding, testing, and breadboading again with a better approximation until the goal is achieved.

---

I think this is true. That is actually what I enjoy about getting older. More pieces of the puzzle reveal themselves and things fit into place. It does help to sort things out. However, there is still a large amount of testing involved...re-evaluation.

I think nowadays the focus is on cognitive or behavioral therapy:

"Therapists or computer-based programs use CBT techniques to help individuals challenge their patterns and beliefs and replace "errors in thinking such as overgeneralizing, magnifying negatives, minimizing positives and catastrophizing" with "more realistic and effective thoughts, thus decreasing emotional distress and self-defeating behavior" [3] or to take a more open, mindful, and aware posture toward them so as to diminish their impact."

Which is kind of what you are saying, Cafolini.