How does Hamlet's "fishmonger" scene with Polonius advance the plot?

Act II, scene 2, lines 163-208

You know, that scene full of babbling lunacy -- the sun breeds maggots in a dead dog, words words words, a crab going backwards, etc.

This is what I can see:

1. It confirms Polonius in his ideas about the cause of Hamlet's madness; he immediately goes off to arrange the meeting between Hamlet and Ophelia
2. It may make Hamlet more suspicious in general, and provoke "Where's your father?" at that meeting with Ophelia

It also provides some exposition, showing us just how loony he is and what's got the court so puzzled.

In terms of plot, I don't see this as a crucial scene. And yet it's never cut, no matter how much else is edited out of a production. Laurence Olivier cut out the Fortinbras plot AND the Rosen and Guild plot, but left this scene in.

I wouldn't cut this scene if I was directing the play.

It is the only private scene between Hamlet and Polonius, and the only scene between them if you discount the 1-2 lines they have between them in III.ii. So while we get a lot of what Polonius thinks of Hamlet, this is the only moment where we see how Hamlet views Polonius, which is crucial to understanding his reaction and treatment of Polonius' death.

And it's funny. You don't want to cut the comedy of this play.

Why does it have to advance the plot?

Well the point is that when you adapt Shakespeare's plays, you often have to cut stuff (and with Hamlet you often have to cut a lot.) So you generally want to cut superficial parts - I think Plum's question was why cut Fortinbras and Rosencrantz and Guildenstern entirely when this particular part seems superficial.

Ahhhh, I see.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mutatis-Mutandi

Why does it have to advance the plot?

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A leisurely break from a drama to explain a character's motivation or an obscure plot point or whatever is a soft spot, a moment of poor craftsmanship. Every line should advance the plot, reveal character, and serve the theme -- all at once! And Shakespeare does it all the time. The best playwrights do.

I certainly agree that this scene illuminates Hamlet's opinion of Polonius, brings teh funny, and guides us towards future plot developments -- but I'm not sure if I'm missing something in terms of its dispensability.

As funny as it may well be, to my mind this sequence has an equally nasty subtext to it.
Hamlet has used the son/sun pun once in the play already and here he uses it again in a much more disturbing and vulgar context, equating Ophelia's body to "carrion"; to rotting meat; a dead bi tch. To Hamlet, the female body is putrid and rotten, like the "rank, unweeded garden" he's fixated on. He likens himself to the "sun", as one who would inpregnate Ophelia's body with "maggots".

The whole play is rife with vile sexual imagery and projects an uncomfortable and disturbing view of sex; Hamlet's preoccupation with female sexuality almost seems to dominate as much of the play as the idea of revenge. In fact the sex nausea in this play is far more pervasive here than anywhere else in Shakespeare.

Firstly there's the Ghost painting a series of obscene pictures to arouse in Hamlet feelings and imaginings of sexual disgust and physical loathing; using sensual imagery cause Hamlet to confront the very thoughts that sicken him (‘let me not think on’t’), and forcing him to stare into the abyss to face the very feelings and imaginings he fears.

Then there are Hamlet's obsessions, likening his mother to a beast in his very first scene; his fixation with "rank garden[s]", with "rank corruption" and the "rank sweat" of sex; of spreading sh it on weeds to make them "ranker"; and his talk of "ulcers," "infection," and "corruption" (surely alluding to venereal disease); of breeding "sinner[s]" and "maggots".

And then there is Laertes' vivid innuendo to Ophelia in II.iii, when he compares intercourse to a "canker" worm invading and injuring a delicate flower before its buds or, "buttons" have had time to open. What with this, the "springes to catch woodcocks" of Polonius, and the exploitation of his daughter's sexuality later in the play, of Hamlet's misogynstic diatribe toward Ophelia in III.iii when his rage and disgust burst forth revealing the sexual horror that is poisoning his mind, and all his talk of "country matters", the poor girl just doesn't stand a chance.

The women in this play really suffer, don't they?

It is a pretty grotesque play.

It is steeped in antic and death.

The book Hamlet is reading is vital for understanding the play.

(Copied from Remembrances in the Book of Their Brains
- http://www.thyorisons.com/index.html#Remembrances )

The book full of old men is very important.

It is the book Polonius sees Hamlet reading.

It is also the book that Polonius later gives to Ophelia to occupy her mind.

It is also the book of remembrances that Hamlet doesn't remember when Ophelia tries to return it to him.

It is the book of orisons wherein Hamlet wants Ophelia to remember all his sins.

It is the book of Hamlet's brain from which he erased himself and wrote his father's commandment. It is also the book of Ophelia's brain, where she let her father tell her what to think and let her brother keep the key to her memory.

It is a document in madness. It is a book full of old men - it should be dusty.

LORD POLONIUS (to Ophelia)
. . . .
Read on this book;
That show of such an exercise may colour
Your loneliness. . . . .

OPHELIA
My lord, I have remembrances of yours,
That I have longed long to re-deliver;
I pray you, now receive them.
HAMLET
No, not I;
I never gave you aught.
OPHELIA
My honour'd lord, you know right well you did;
And, with them, words of so sweet breath composed
As made the things more rich: their perfume lost,
Take these again; for to the noble mind
Rich gifts wax poor when givers prove unkind.
There, my lord.

Since he IS a student, maybe Hamlet could take a shiny new book out of his backpack when he writes his father's commandment in the book and volume of his brain. Then when he writes his uncle in his tables, he could take out the book again (now dusty) and write his uncle in the back of the book, as an appendix.

At the end of the scene where Hamlet is reading the dusty book, Polonius could leave with the book in hand (Hamlet having willingly parted with the book of his brain) so that Polonius can later hand the book to Ophelia.

LORD POLONIUS
. . .--My honourable lord, I will most humbly take my leave of you.
HAMLET
You cannot, sir, take from me any thing that I will more willingly part withal: except my life, except my life, except my life.

Also please see Old Men in the Book of his Brain
- http://www.thyorisons.com/index.html#Old_Men
and
A Document in Madness
- http://www.thyorisons.com/index.html#Document_Madness

Hamlet is a bookworm :)

Quote:

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The book full of old men is very important.

It is the book Polonius sees Hamlet reading.

It is also the book that Polonius later gives to Ophelia to occupy her mind.

It is also the book of remembrances that Hamlet doesn't remember when Ophelia tries to return it to him.

It is the book of orisons wherein Hamlet wants Ophelia to remember all his sins.

It is the book of Hamlet's brain from which he erased himself and wrote his father's commandment. It is also the book of Ophelia's brain, where she let her father tell her what to think and let her brother keep the key to her memory.

It is a document in madness. It is a book full of old men - it should be dusty.

---

I like this bit about old men.
Does that include women to do you think?
and also
Does the importance on the fact that the book is full or on the fact that ageeism is an issue?

Hamlet does not remember the book could mean he did not care for it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ray Eston Smith

The book Hamlet is reading is vital for understanding the play.

(Copied from Remembrances in the Book of Their Brains
- http://www.thyorisons.com/index.html#Remembrances )

The book full of old men is very important.

It is the book Polonius sees Hamlet reading.

It is also the book that Polonius later gives to Ophelia to occupy her mind.

It is also the book of remembrances that Hamlet doesn't remember when Ophelia tries to return it to him.

It is the book of orisons wherein Hamlet wants Ophelia to remember all his sins.

It is the book of Hamlet's brain from which he erased himself and wrote his father's commandment. It is also the book of Ophelia's brain, where she let her father tell her what to think and let her brother keep the key to her memory.

It is a document in madness. It is a book full of old men - it should be dusty.

LORD POLONIUS (to Ophelia)
. . . .
Read on this book;
That show of such an exercise may colour
Your loneliness. . . . .

OPHELIA
My lord, I have remembrances of yours,
That I have longed long to re-deliver;
I pray you, now receive them.
HAMLET
No, not I;
I never gave you aught.
OPHELIA
My honour'd lord, you know right well you did;
And, with them, words of so sweet breath composed
As made the things more rich: their perfume lost,
Take these again; for to the noble mind
Rich gifts wax poor when givers prove unkind.
There, my lord.

Since he IS a student, maybe Hamlet could take a shiny new book out of his backpack when he writes his father's commandment in the book and volume of his brain. Then when he writes his uncle in his tables, he could take out the book again (now dusty) and write his uncle in the back of the book, as an appendix.

At the end of the scene where Hamlet is reading the dusty book, Polonius could leave with the book in hand (Hamlet having willingly parted with the book of his brain) so that Polonius can later hand the book to Ophelia.

LORD POLONIUS
. . .--My honourable lord, I will most humbly take my leave of you.
HAMLET
You cannot, sir, take from me any thing that I will more willingly part withal: except my life, except my life, except my life.

Also please see Old Men in the Book of his Brain
- http://www.thyorisons.com/index.html#Old_Men
and
A Document in Madness
- http://www.thyorisons.com/index.html#Document_Madness

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How did I not notice this post before: ah well, a good laugh on a Saturday morning is always welcomed.

"The book Hamlet is reading is vital for understanding the play. " No it's not, and referencing an article you wrote (or stole from?) does not change that.

"The book full of old men is very important." Who said it is full of old men. You are basing this on one passage that Hamlet seems to be referencing - which, taking everything else we know about Hamlet when dealing with Polonius, there is a good chance he is not reading that passage at all, but just making it up - as can be seen in Polonius' reaction: "hough this be madness, yet there is method in 't."

"It is also the book that Polonius later gives to Ophelia to occupy her mind." I grant that this would be a director's choice, but there is no indication of this in the text. And the subject of the book Ophelia is reading has no bearing on her iconography (the object her father makes her in to in order to trap Hamlet).

"It is also the book of remembrances that Hamlet doesn't remember when Ophelia tries to return it to him."

Those remembrances are letters that Hamlet wrote to her: not the book.

Quote:

---

My lord, I have remembrances of yours,
That I have longed long to re-deliver;
I pray you, now receive them.
HAMLET
No, not I;
I never gave you aught.
OPHELIA
My honour'd lord, you know right well you did;
And, with them, words of so sweet breath composed
As made the things more rich: their perfume lost,
Take these again; for to the noble mind
Rich gifts wax poor when givers prove unkind.
There, my lord.

---

"It is the book of orisons wherein Hamlet wants Ophelia to remember all his sins." Wow, you messed this quote up bad. Hamlet is telling himself to remember all his sins, not Ophelia. I am of the mind that This part is fixed to his soliloquy and thus he has not engaged with Ophelia yet - this can be debated - but that does not change your poor reading.

""It is the book of Hamlet's brain from which he erased himself and wrote his father's commandment. It is also the book of Ophelia's brain, where she let her father tell her what to think and let her brother keep the key to her memory.

It is a document in madness. It is a book full of old men - it should be dusty."

So we have moved away from the specific book to the symbol of "book" in the play? Oh, here the word "book" appears, that must mean.....

I'm sorry - this is just an awful reading of the play, poorly put together and throw out there with only irrelevant references to the text proper.

The "one book" reading is quite odd.

Yes, this "theory", if you could call it that, is really is a load of bunkum and not worth anyone's consideration.
Best stick to the text, methinks.