Meaning of "War is Peace" (pg 199)

On page 199, in the chapter where Winston is reading the Goldstein book, there is the line: "A peace that was truly permanent would be the same as a permanent war."

This is torturing me because it appears to contradict the case Orwell has made previously that war is necessary to keep the hierarchy of society intact, by way of destruction of material goods and the resulting scarcity. And war also creates the climate of fear which keeps the masses distracted and vulnerable.

So permanent peace would not be the same, as there would be no means for preserving the hierarchy, right? Unless he just means that permanent war and permanent peace each create a stable world order (though with much different outcomes)?

Anyone??

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Originally Posted by DougSlug

On page 199, in the chapter where Winston is reading the Goldstein book, there is the line: "A peace that was truly permanent would be the same as a permanent war."

This is torturing me because it appears to contradict the case Orwell has made previously that war is necessary to keep the hierarchy of society intact, by way of destruction of material goods and the resulting scarcity. And war also creates the climate of fear which keeps the masses distracted and vulnerable.

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It's not a contradiction, it's a confirmation!

Those are the things which create peace - unity, distrction and vulnerability. Being at war ensures slavish loyalty to the Party, which equals peace. In the year 1984, there are three powers which continuously fight, but in an extremely limited way. As a result, there is never the chance for any side to build up arms quietly, because they're at war all the time!

Just as you suggest:

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Originally Posted by DougSlug

So permanent peace would not be the same, as there would be no means for preserving the hierarchy, right? Unless he just means that permanent war and permanent peace each create a stable world order (though with much different outcomes)?

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Peace wouldn't work. Without the war machine, constantly trying to develop new weapons, the staus quo would not be maintained.

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Originally Posted by The Atheist

Peace wouldn't work. Without the war machine, constantly trying to develop new weapons, the staus quo would not be maintained.

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Exactly, the war machine is needed to maintain status quo. So why then does Orwell say, "A peace that was truly permanent would be the same as a permanent war"? This is the line that is confusing me.

Thanks.

Sorry, I missed your reply.

Orwell's referring to the political stability rather than the actual population, because he makes it clear that people do actually get killed by rockets, regardles sof who launched them.

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Originally Posted by The Atheist

Sorry, I missed your reply.

Orwell's referring to the political stability rather than the actual population, because he makes it clear that people do actually get killed by rockets, regardles sof who launched them.

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Ok. I just re-read the passage, and if you mean political stability between the three superstates, then I think you are right. I was thinking of societal/economic stability within Oceania, but now that I look at it again, I do think he meant in it the context that you mention.

Good, thanks for the help!