hi. anyone interested in eliot's journey of the magi? anyone? i have a couple of questions. i need help. SOS.
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hi. anyone interested in eliot's journey of the magi? anyone? i have a couple of questions. i need help. SOS.
I know the poem well Mamuksha. What are your questions?
Thanks Virgil.
"All this was a long time ago, I remember,
And I would do it again, but set down
This set down
This: were we led all that way for
Birth or Death? There was a Birth, certainly,
We had evidence and no doubt. I had seen birth and death,
But had thought they were different; this Birth was
Hard and bitter agony for us, like Death, our death."
'Birth' and 'Death' are Christ's birth and death while 'our death' is well our death. Now if this 'Birth' was like 'Death, our death', all three are being related. Can you explain?
It says it was 'a long time ago' so is this tone of disillusionment(I'm not sure that is it exactly) because of what they experienced at the time of the Birth or after having lived in the same circumstances as before the Birth for a 'long time' now?
Ah, I found it. Sorry i didn't see it MumukshaQuote:
Originally Posted by MUMUKSHA
First remember who the narrator is, one of the Magi that travels across lands to meet the infant Jesus and in the process he is transformed. There are many births and deaths here. There is the literal birth and future death of Jesus; there is the coming physical death of the Magi himself, now apparently old; there is the birth and death of the Magi's spiritual self, now transformed; there is the Christian theological notion that the birth and death of every single human being is in fact in Jesus, and that Jesus's birth and death is an archetype for ours. Actually more than an archetype. That word is limited. There is a spiritual connection in our birth and death to Jesus. I hope that explains that.
As to disillusionment, I would have to say no. It's not disillusionment (he gladly would do it again) but a burden. First there is the burden of the separation from Jesus. Jesus is gone from this life. Second Jesus's death is a suffering, and that suffering and burden has been transposed to the narrator. Contrast his earlier life of palaces and silken girls, which are now empty of meaning, to his new existence.
I read the poem after reading your answer to my post. It cleared some things up. But now I have more questions.
Yes, that helped. Thank you. But one question remains. Birth itself has been described by the Magus as Death. So, I take it to mean that it refers to the fact that the significance of the birth of Christ lies in his inevitable death for the redemption of mankind(correct me if I am wrong). This 'Birth and Death' is 'our death' as in a spiritual death and rebirth or a spiritually transformed self. Was not this transformation desired? Was any of this contrary to what the Magi were supposed to expect from the quest they undertook? If not, then this could not have been 'Hard and bitter agony'. I don't understand this 'hard and bitter agony' part.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Yes, he says he would do it again but I am not so sure about 'gladly'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Disillusionment might not be the right word but there is something in the way he describes the journey, the kind of language he uses( he even mentions' villages dirty and charging heavy prices') that does not tell of a successful or completely fulfilling journey. When we reminisce about a hard and trying but successful journey, we usually brag rather than grumble about the hardships. It is when we don't get what we wanted out of it that we would grumble.
Also, when they finally reach he declares "it was (you may say) satisfactory."
Moreover, when he says he would do it again, what does he exactly mean? Were he to go back in time, would he again go on the journey he is describing? Or, would he go on a quest of this sort, a quest to seek a source of redemption? In any case he seems more interested in having 'set down' the doubts and questions that are still left unanswered even after the journey. So, I don't know what the exact word to describe the tone is but I found there is some measure of disappointment or something of that sort in the language. That is how it sounds to me.
Ok. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by MUMUKSHA
I would say that is true.Quote:
Yes, that helped. Thank you. But one question remains. Birth itself has been described by the Magus as Death. So, I take it to mean that it refers to the fact that the significance of the birth of Christ lies in his inevitable death for the redemption of mankind(correct me if I am wrong).
That is a good question. One assumes they undertook the journey freely, but like most significant journies we become something we did not expect when we started.Quote:
This 'Birth and Death' is 'our death' as in a spiritual death and rebirth or a spiritually transformed self. Was not this transformation desired? Was any of this contrary to what the Magi were supposed to expect from the quest they undertook?
I'm not sure exactly how to explain this. To some Christians Christ is a joy and a grace. To other Christians, and Eliot is among them, Christ is a burden because to fully accept him is to deny the pure impulse of humanity. It is a bitter agony to because the spiritual transformation requires a rejection of his previous life. That is hard.Quote:
If not, then this could not have been 'Hard and bitter agony'. I don't understand this 'hard and bitter agony' part.
Oh you're right, he doesn't say gladly. My mind must have slipped that in there.Quote:
Yes, he says he would do it again but I am not so sure about 'gladly'.
I take the hardness of the journey as a parallel for Christ's suffering through the Passion events. As Christ sufferred in his journey to the crucifixion, so does the Magi suffer in his journey, and so do we suffer toward our destiny.Quote:
Disillusionment might not be the right word but there is something in the way he describes the journey, the kind of language he uses( he even mentions' villages dirty and charging heavy prices') that does not tell of a successful or completely fulfilling journey. When we reminisce about a hard and trying but successful journey, we usually brag rather than grumble about the hardships.
Eliot does not romanticize our life's journey toward God. It is hard. Actually I just remembered a line from Acts of the Apostles:Quote:
It is when we don't get what we wanted out of it that we would grumble.
"It is necessary for us to undergo many hardships to enter the kingdom of God." (Chapt 14)
I would say so.Quote:
Also, when they finally reach he declares "it was (you may say) satisfactory."
Moreover, when he says he would do it again, what does he exactly mean? Were he to go back in time, would he again go on the journey he is describing?
Good point on redemption. This is a redemption for the Magi. I don't see disappointment. What I see is the man went on to a great experience, say like a soldier goes to war, and perhaps he starts as some idealistic young man, thinking this will be a joy, but realizes the experience is traumatic and that it has altered him to the point he cannot go back to who he was previous. There has come an enlightment from the experience, and understanding of some transcendent reality, and he wouldn't trade that knowledge, but it has come at the price of his loss of innocence. Does that make sense?Quote:
Or, would he go on a quest of this sort, a quest to seek a source of redemption? In any case he seems more interested in having 'set down' the doubts and questions that are still left unanswered even after the journey. So, I don't know what the exact word to describe the tone is but I found there is some measure of disappointment or something of that sort in the language. That is how it sounds to me.
So we don't get what we expected. How would you describe what one feels when one gets something other than what he or she expected? Disillusionment and disappointment being ruled out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Yes, there are suggestions made to crucifixion and Passion events. And the hardness of the journey can be taken to refer to many other things that are analogous to journies with hardships. That is not what troubles me. It is the language, the attitude or the tone that is confusing me. If we are to describe say the tone of the poem or the attitude of the narrator how would we do that. Give me exact words.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
I think you've hit on what makes this a great poem. I'm not sure there is any single word that can describe the emotion. Consternation perhaps. Discord perhaps. If this were music, one could say he hit a dissonant chord. Dissonance, perhaps that's the best word. He's in a state of dissonance.Quote:
Originally Posted by MUMUKSHA
I would say the tone is resignation. He is resigned to the fact that a dissonant chord has been struck in his soul and he can't overcome it or go back to what he was before the experience. He just now accepts the agony.Quote:
Yes, there are suggestions made to crucifixion and Passion events. And the hardness of the journey can be taken to refer to many other things that are analogous to journies with hardships. That is not what troubles me. It is the language, the attitude or the tone that is confusing me. If we are to describe say the tone of the poem or the attitude of the narrator how would we do that. Give me exact words.
I guess I'll have to accept 'dissonance' and 'resignation' for now. I'll read the poem again to make sure it doesn't contradict these conclusions. I don't think it will though.
Mumuksha, this was a great conversation. I thoroughly enjoyed it. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by MUMUKSHA
I enjoyed it too. And gained much. So, thank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil