School Dress Codes? Uniforms?

I playfully brought up the benefits of school uniforms in a recent blog post. And several people responded to this idea with concern.

So if your school were to require student uniforms, what would be your concerns?

Speaking for uniforms, I can say that they would help to limit social stigmatization, sexualization, and vulgarity. They would also reduce the overall cost of clothing for families. And I think serious cat would approve of them (waves to Serious cat) because they would help create a more studious atmosphere in general (but by no means create one).

I went to schools with uniforms all my life. There are very few schools here that dont have uniforms and i think its better that schools have uniforms. Yes they can be ugly as hell but there is less chance of someone being bullied because they are not in with the latest fashion, they've been wearing the same clothes for most of the year.
In away they create an equality. Not all schools have people from the same backround. Where i went to secondary school there were girls from working class areas like me with others from more middle class and some upper class in the one classroom. Uniforms meant that we were treated the same.
And i dont think wearing uniforms takes away from your individuality. In fact i think they help inhance who you are as an individual because people focus on the type of person you are and not what you are wering and were you are from. You express yourself through speech and actions rather that making a statement through what you wear. Its better for personal developement.

If i had kids i'd rather send them to a school with a uniform than one with no uniform.

I wore uniforms all through grade school and high school. I don't have a problem with uniforms at all, for one thing I never had to think about what to wear and it was easy to get dressed in the morning. But I don't think uniforms, at least in my case, are the great equalizer that some people think they are, we still had cliches, we still knew which kids had money and which didn't (It was all about the accessories). There was still sexualization, as soon as we got out of school the skirts were hiked up and the blouses unbuttoned. We still had drug and alcohol issues. I can't say if it was better or worse then schools without uniforms but if I had my choice I'd pick uniforms every time.

I wore uniform at school, from the age of five. At my grammar school (eleven to eighteen - so, what's that to Americans? high school?), the rules for the uniform were arcane and apparently arbitrary. They were also enforced.

The upshot is that nothing on God's earth would now get me into a uniform, and throughout my adult life I've avoided any job, organisation, affiliation or even pastime that required me to wear one.

For that reason, I'm very much in favour of school uniforms, because I think that they encourage young people to consider opposing the kind of authority that insists upon conformity.

As a parent I would be all for it...for all the positive reasons already shared.

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Originally Posted by papayahed

But I don't think uniforms, at least in my case, are the great equalizer that some people think they are, we still had cliches, we still knew which kids had money and which didn't (It was all about the accessories).

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I don't really think that they are a great equalizer, but I do think that help to create, at least, and equalized air and studiousness. Again, I don't think that they are or would be a social wonder drug, but rather a nail in more stable framework.

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Originally Posted by papayahed

There was still sexualization, as soon as we got out of school the skirts were hiked up and the blouses unbuttoned. We still had drug and alcohol issues.

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I'm fine with this (my italics) -- in many ways this sort of stuff is part of adolescence.

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Originally Posted by MarkBastable

I'm very much in favour of school uniforms, because I think that they encourage young people to consider opposing the kind of authority that insists upon conformity.

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Ha! I like this sort of thinking. And I agree with it completely -- as a teacher (community college level), I see many students who like to assert their independence by breaking grammar rules they cannot define, let alone follow. Yes, first know the authority, then follow the authority, then challenge the authority.

I feel pretty much the same as Papaya, I wore uniforms all through primary and secondary school and I don't think it really had all that much of an equalizing influence. On the other hand, I don't think it had any negative effects either. Like Niamh said, it is unusual for a school not to require a uniform here as well.

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z...epy/school.jpg

My school had pretty lax uniform rules though.

Hi Comedian, it’s a good question. My issue with uniforms is that it seems to totally miss the point. I agree, in part, with what you’ve said here:

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Originally Posted by Comedian

I don't really think that they are a great equalizer...Again, I don't think that they are or would be a social wonder drug, but rather a nail in more stable framework.

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that uniforms do not equalise and that they’re not a social wonder drug, but the problem is that some people think they are. So kids are poor or neglected and get picked on, let’s stick them in uniform. Sure they still might be poor and get picked on but it’ll have nothing to do with their clothes and perhaps we adults won't be able to see it anymore. So kids are disruptive in class, just stick them in uniform and suddenly they’ll behave like angels and maths will just sink in. Hmm, I don’t think so. I think the uniform is treated like a giant sticking plaster, and so long as everything appears okay no one is really bothered if the wound is festering underneath. I think that’s the wrong message and the wrong approach. Personally I’d rather less time was spent worrying about superficial issues and appearances and more time spent addressing the core problems. And spending too much time thinking about and worrying about and policing what people wear does seem rather superficial and it can often be enforced in very superficial ways. For example, my stepson went to a school which required a uniform. One day he woke up and he couldn’t straighten his neck. We took him to the doctor and the doctor said it was just a muscle issue and it would fix itself in a few days but in the meantime he had to wear a surgical collar. So the next day he went to school with his uniform on minus his tie as with the surgical collar he couldn’t actually put his tie on. When he came home he had a letter saying he’d been put on report for not wearing full uniform and not having a note to explain why. It seems his teachers placed more merit on what he was wearing than the fact that he missed as little school as possible and that despite the fact that he was in some pain he knuckled down with his work without compliant or slacking. That just seemed totally ridiculous to me, but such situations are doubtless not unique.

I really don’t think that a uniform policy addresses any of these issues:

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Originally Posted by Comedian

I can say that they would help to limit social stigmatization, sexualization, and vulgarity. They would also reduce the overall cost of clothing for families.

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because:
1. School uniforms are often very expensive. Certainly more expensive than normal everyday clothes which are subject to considerably more open market forces. A basic school blazer in UK costs £20. I can’t recall ever having the need to spend that much money on one item of clothing for either of my kids. In fact I could probably get them 4 decent quality jumpers for the same amount of money.
2. Even with uniforms there are noticeable differences in the standard of dress which highlights kids’ ‘social status’. Everyone can tell who’s wearing the second hand uniform, or which kid’s shirts are never quite clean or whose trousers are too small or really old. Superficially they might look the same, but to think that kids or an observant adult can’t notice the differences seems flawed.
3. Sexualisation has vastly more to do with self esteem and social awareness/pressure than clothing. Again, uniforms mask the issue but they don’t make it go away. If kids didn’t have to wear a uniform it would be more apparent how big an issue this was and perhaps more could be done to address it. As a separate point expecting 13+ year olds not to become more sexually aware, and not to be dragging that into the classroom with them seem bizarre to me. In a way you’re asking kids to leave their growing up at the door. I don’t think that’s possible.
4. Vulgarity? I’m not sure how school uniforms address vulgarity. Vulgarity is more of a state of mind; if kids want to be vulgar they can do it perfectly well with their mouths. Clothes are not required.

I don’t think uniforms address this either:

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Originally Posted by Comedian

but I do think that help to create, at least, and equalized air and studiousness.

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because the disruptive kid in class is going to be disruptive no matter what they’re wearing. When I listen to my kids (who wear uniform, it’s pretty standard here now) there seems to be around the same proportion of disruptive kids in their school as there was in mine which had no uniform. A uniform isn’t going to make anyone behave better or make them more interested in studying. In fact for some people it might make things worse. Some people like uniforms, they like the structure of them, but others feel stifled and uncomfortable. Why not have both, and give kids the option to choose what suits them best? After all, if we want kids to be responsible we have to give them responsibility. If they’re not even permitted to decide something as basic as what to wear, what hope is there for them with anything else? And I think this is a big part of the problem. Everyone wants kids to take responsibility, but at the same time most people are a bit reluctant to give it to them.

Don’t get me wrong, I can see what you’re getting at and I don’t think uniforms are entirely without merit, but I think the idea that somehow the education system can separate itself from the influences of the outside world and create a rarefied environment in which kids come and just study without bringing with them the baggage of being a kid, a small human being - bullying, sexuality, poverty, neglect, boredom, apathy, social disparity, alcohol, drugs, aptitude, interests, ability - or that a uniform policy does anything other than turn attention away from those issues seems a little pie in the sky to me. Heck, I work in an office full of adults and we still have those sorts of issues. I think, hard though it is, it is more important to look at things directly than hide them behind an illusion of social cohesion. If we are ever going to stand a chance of actually improving those issues, the process has got to start young.

I also think that a big issue facing the educational system is the way in which information is increasingly condensed into smaller and smaller bites and that is probably part of the problem in the classroom because it seems that kids are more easily distracted. But if you think about it, kids grow up being bombarded with information in shot-doses and then we expect them to be able to go into the classroom and concentrate for 45 minutes on one subject. I think that’s a tough ask. If we want kids to be able to concentrate and study and achieve (whether academically or vocationally – see the ‘should school be compulsory’ thread for more details) we need to engender a culture in which those are the things which are valued, advertised and celebrated rather than, ‘Posh tells Becks: “it’s over!”’

Rant over. Sorry :D

Personally, I don't think whether wearing uniforms or not greatly matters. However, I do think there is a problem, like TheFifthElement said, with punishing kids because they were wearing something the school deemed "inappropriate" or were not following the dress code. In our school we didn't have uniforms, but there were rules against wearing middrifts, tank tops, and wife beaters. If a kid wore the wrong sort of cloths they'd make them put a baggy shirt over top of it, but they wouldn't write them up or put them in detention... this approach seems the most appropriate to me. The biggest problem I'd have with uniforms is, is the question of what the punishment is if the kid isn't wearing what he's supposed to?

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Originally Posted by Katy North

The biggest problem I'd have with uniforms is, is the question of what the punishment is if the kid isn't wearing what he's supposed to?

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At my school it was whipping for a first offence, followed by an escalation of punishments for subsequent transgressions that culminated in the public crucifixion of incorrigible non-tuckers-in-of-shirts.

I would have rebelled even more if I was required to wear a uniform. A) The few times I've been required to wear a uniform of any sort (usually in band in high school) to be terribly uncomfortable. Marching uniforms are wool, itchy, and hot. My concert uniform cut my air intake by twenty five percent. B) I doubt it would have helped with the 'fashion bullying' at all. If someone wants to make fun of you and beat you up, they'll find a reason. C) I tear clothing up like nobody's business. If I were required to wear something like that, I'd have to get a new one every week.
Now, if 'uniform' meant jeans and a T shirt with comfy boots, you'd not hear a peep out of me.

If you are not use to wearing a uniform then you'd rebel. I wore one from the time i was 4 years old until i was 17. Because i was use to wearing one, i hadnt a problem with it. Its a normal thing here to wear a school uniform. I wore a work uniform when i worked in Tesco, Dunnes Stores and Hughes and Hughes. I now have to wear a suit because i'm management. The only time i didnt wear a uniform was in college. It was nice not ot wear one, but then i was a student and not wearing a uniform going to classes had a feeling of being grown up about it. I didnt have to tend all classes and wasnt going to get detention for not turning up. It was a different experience. (this is my own personal experience, please dont mock it) I also had no uniform for Archaeology, but in saying that i did have to wear certain work gear.
Uniforms can be so much a part of daily life. As i said before. Its not going to hold a person back.

I have no real issue with school uniforms, but I think that the current skirt/dress pants with a blazer or super preppy sweater is just a bit excessive. Maybe just basic jeans and a school t-shirt would suffice for me. The problem with expensive uniforms is that they still make it easy to spot the kids whose parents had to buy second had. Schools could sell shirts much cheaper, and there is really no excuse for not buying your child 5 new t-shirts or even 10 (5 short sleeve and 5 long sleeve) at $10 or even $15 a piece. You'll spend that much on regular clothing anyway.

I wouldn't mind uniforms, because I do imagine that it will remove at least one distraction from school. So much time and energy for young people is spent on what they wear and deciding who is dressed "correctly" and who isn't. I don't think it is a cure all for a myriad of social issues, but I don't think it can really hurt either. I think that it also prepares children for having to dress a certain way in the workforce. My job is pretty lenient, but many companies have fairly strict codes of dress that need to be adhered to. I don't think it is unreasonable to expect children to dress in a uniformed and appropriate manner for school. You'll still have the cliques and such, but maybe they'll be a little less defined.

I wore a uniform all through high school and I liked it for a few reasons, mainly for the fact that I didn't have to think about what to wear everyday and honestly, it was really comfortable. My uniform was a kilt and knee socks and a golf shirt. Honestly, I've never worn anything as comfortable as that kilt. It's not really much of an equalizer nor does it prevent sexualization (we wore those kilts Reeaaally short haha) but I think Comedian is right on with his point about the air of studiousness that a uniform provides. I think it's just a means of enforcing the idea that school is a place where everyone has a task to perform and that there is a standard of professionalism to be upheld and pride to be taken in what you accomplish there. We had fairly strict rules about the uniform, mostly surrounding the tucking in of the shirts haha, but they were specific about the type of shoes you wore and also how you wore it- for example, guys were not allowed to have their pants down around their knees like you often see and there was a certain number of buttons that had to be done up on the girls shirts to avoid cleavage. It's also a sign of respect towards the faculty. They put on nice clothes and ties and whatnot because they are in a professional situation, why should the students not show respect for the teacher and the situation as well?

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Originally Posted by *Classic*Charm*

It's also a sign of respect towards the faculty.

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If you replaced the word 'respect' with 'obedience', I'd say you'd have got it about right.

Forgive my incredulity Classic. None of the schools I went to had a uniform policy. There was a generally studious and respectful atmosphere. I'd say about 85-90% of the kids in my schools generally got their heads down and got on with their work, the rest were split between those that struggled and those that just didn't want to be there. Putting them into a uniform wouldn't have addressed or improved those things though it would have given them one more thing to get into trouble over.

If you want to show respect to the faculty work hard and do your best, be attentive in class, do your homework on time. That was how we showed respect to the teachers and the school. Respect is about action and behaviour not image. The sooner we get away from this idea that creating the illusion of respect and professionalism is enough the better.

As far as I see it uniforms in school are at best about creating a professional image and at worst a visual demonstration of obedience. It is all very well to say it 'does no harm', but I think we ought to really be asking the question 'does it do any good'? I can think of no good practical application for them in school which is not the case when considering uniforms in employment situations. Perhaps I am missing something? If so, please someone tell me what it is.