You are prepared, the two of you, to separate?

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06-06-2009, 07:56 AM
Gladys

You are prepared, the two of you, to separate?
At his sumptuous residence, O'Brien asks Winston and Julia a question.

Quote:

'You are prepared, the two of you, to separate and never see one another again?'

'No!' broke in Julia.

It appeared to Winston that a long time passed before he answered. For a moment he seemed even to have been deprived of the power of speech. His tongue worked soundlessly, forming the opening syllables first of one word, then of the other, over and over again. Until he had said it, he did not know which word he was going to say. 'No,' he said finally.

Why does Winston hesitate before replying, unlike Julia? Is there evidence to support one of these possibilities:
1. Winston is bothered by O'Brien's motives in asking such a question.
2. Winston is intimidated by O'Brien.
3. Winston is desperate for freedom.
4. Winston almost rates subverting Ingsoc above his love for Julia.
5. Winston is reluctant to offend Julia, and lies.
06-06-2009, 08:32 AM
Knirps
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gladys

Winston is bothered by O'Brien's motives in asking such a question.
Winston is intimidated by O'Brien.
Winston is desperate for freedom.
Winston almost rates subverting Ingsoc above his love for Julia.
Winston is reluctant to offend Julia, and lies.
-Winston is desperate for freedom.

The quote itself is evidence of this statement. His relationship With Julia is quite complicated, and because of its nature - it is an extreme way of attaining freedom, to some degree. Being presented with equal opportunities, perplexes Winston.

-Winston almost rates subverting Ingsoc above his love for Julia.

Again, i think the quote itself is the proof, as it shows that Winston is not clear with his own intentions. Additionally, all over the book love seems to be second on the list of his priorities after subverting Ingsoc. He always talks and thinks about politics, but love is just simply 'sex' for him.
06-08-2009, 11:32 AM
Litchr-LiteWait

Early in the affair I was convinced that for Julia, sex was simply a physical act defiance carried out only because it was forbidden by the authority. Later as evidenced by her behavior in the hideaway (bringing contraband food, ‘painting’ herself and using perfume) I was came to believe she genuinely loved Winston. Her reaction to Obrien’s suggestion supports this. I suppose her behavior could be further rebellion and her reaction to Obrien is her protecting her rebellious outlet.

Julia is quite immature in that her desire for rebellion is never against Ingsog namely but simply rebellion for rebellions sake (like a adolescent), as evidenced by her disinterest in the book, resistance to reach out to Obrien. For Winston, every act of rebellion is specifically targeted at the Party. I agree that if a better resistive outlet presented itself he would seize the opportunity even if it meant he could never see Julia again. On the other hand, I think he holds rather romantic view of how things could be if he and Julia could live ‘normal’ lives.

In short I see evidence for both 3 and 4. Also a version of 5: Winston is in love with the idea of a normal, free life. Offending her would end thier affair and this expression of the life wants to live.
06-18-2009, 08:37 AM
Leonard_K
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gladys

At his sumptuous residence, O'Brien asks Winston and Julia a question.

Why does Winston hesitate before replying, unlike Julia? Is there evidence to support one of these possibilities:

Winston is bothered by O'Brien's motives in asking such a question.

Winston is intimidated by O'Brien.

Winston is desperate for freedom.

Winston almost rates subverting Ingsoc above his love for Julia.

Winston is reluctant to offend Julia, and lies.
Why does he hesitate? I pondered this also.

I think number 4 on your list is the answer-- Winston's hate for Party is as strong as his genuine love for Julia. Winston is older and has more experience with Party aberrations. Julia's not that much interested in that ideology -- she's her natural self.

She was born after the revolution yet still reflects the many normal human impulses that the party is expunging. Recall that she says she has had many illegal affairs with other outer party members. So the Party still has lots of work to do in perfecting humanity toward its purpose which O'Brien later explains in Room 101 as "power for its own sake."

Orwell is suggesting the possibility that technology and man's impulse for perfecting humanity could run haywire and lead to this nightmare. Its a brilliant work.
06-19-2009, 12:47 AM
Gladys

A 6th and more promising possibility

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leonard_K

I think number 4 on your list is the answer-- Winston's hate for Party is as strong as his genuine love for Julia. Winston is older and has more experience with Party aberrations. Julia's not that much interested in that ideology -- she's her natural self.

I have an new slant on the question: Why does Winston hesitate before replying, unlike Julia?

6. Winston is ultimately no better than O'Brien!

Given, in the brotherhood, the same power as O'Brien, Winston would likely behave in the same ruthless and brutal manner. The fundamental difference between O'Brien and Winston lies in the branch of the party, Inner or Outer, they happen to occupy.

Quote:

'If, for example, it would somehow serve our interests to throw sulphuric acid in a child's face are you prepared to do that?'

'Yes.'

O'Brien is right to doubt Winston's assumed moral superiority:

Quote:

'Yes, I consider myself superior.'

O'Brien did not speak. Two other voices were speaking. After a moment Winston recognized one of them as his own. It was a sound−track of the conversation he had had with O'Brien, on the night when he had enrolled himself in the Brotherhood. He heard himself promising to lie, to steal, to forge, to murder, to encourage drug−taking and prostitution, to disseminate venereal diseases, to throw vitriol in a child's face. O'Brien made a small impatient gesture, as though to say that the demonstration was hardly worth making. Then he turned a switch and the voices stopped.

Orwell, himself, had experienced the terrible treachery of one-time moral zealots in communist parties and elsewhere.
07-14-2009, 09:22 AM
Leonard_K

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gladys

I have an new slant on the question: Why does Winston hesitate before replying, unlike Julia?

6. Winston is ultimately no better than O'Brien!

Given, in the brotherhood, the same power as O'Brien, Winston would likely behave in the same ruthless and brutal manner. The fundamental difference between O'Brien and Winston lies in the branch of the party, Inner or Outer, they happen to occupy.

O'Brien is right to doubt Winston's assumed moral superiority:

Orwell, himself, had experienced the terrible treachery of one-time moral zealots in communist parties and elsewhere.

Dear Gladys:
That Orwell is relating his experience with hypocritical communists sounds quite likely. I'm sure you're right. I don't know much about Orwell.

However, he is telling us that Winston is a better person because he is not among "the dead" in the way that O'Brien is. O'Brien confines Winston to an electric torture machine to kill those things in Winston that resists the Party's power and which make him unequivocally better than O'Brien. If Winston is not a better person than O'Brien then 1984 has no compelling reason to be written.
07-15-2009, 05:01 AM
Gladys

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leonard_K

If Winston is not a better person than O'Brien then 1984 has no compelling reason to be written.

You forget Julia, who does not promise 'to throw sulphuric acid in a child's face', or worse. And yes, O'Brien is a monster.