Ye Gods and Graces!

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01-12-2009, 02:39 PM
andave_ya

Ye Gods and Graces!

Homer's gods are meddlesome, irksome, petulant, childish, un-heroic, cheap, cheesy, irritating, manipulative jerks. I can't believe that Greeks actually believed in gods that behave worse than humans do. And yet Homer has them as the real heroes of the story. Who are Hector and Achilles? Are they actually heroic? One of them is Mars' poster child, the other is the idiot son of a goddess. They do not stand on their own.

The only one with any sense is Odysseus, even if he's Minerva's favorite.

Furthermore, Paris is a wart.
01-28-2009, 02:57 PM
bluevictim

Quote:

Originally Posted by andave_ya

Homer's gods are meddlesome, irksome, petulant, childish, un-heroic, cheap, cheesy, irritating, manipulative jerks. I can't believe that Greeks actually believed in gods that behave worse than humans do.

This reaction has been voiced by many since antiquity (Plato's Socrates, for example), so you must be onto something! The frivolity of the immortals is apparent to anybody reading the Iliad, and it brings out one of the most compelling themes of the poem -- the brevity of human life. The gods are not burdened by the consequences of their actions and decisions because they can never die. They do not have to come to grips with realizing that the fulfillment of some of their dreams is simply impossible; they never face the fact that there is no second chance for (human) life. It's not surprising, then, that they seem childish; they act like children and adolescents, who still see endless possibilities for life, who have yet to experience the crushing of their dreams, who have yet to feel the fist of time closing around their aspirations, who, in short, have not yet had to face their mortality.

In the Iliad, the immortality of the gods lowers their significance and raises the nobility of human life. We, in today's culture, tend to feel that our mortality lowers the significance of human actions in comparison with the divine, and it bothers us that Homer's gods should be so frivolous. I can't help but suspect that behind the criticism that you (along with many others) have leveled against the Iliad's gods is a hint of the same resentment that is expressed in Achilles' prayer to Thetis:

"Mother, since you bore me to be so short-lived, Olympian Thunderer Zeus ought therefore to have bestowed honor on me. But in fact he has not even honored me a little."

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And yet Homer has them as the real heroes of the story. Who are Hector and Achilles? Are they actually heroic? One of them is Mars' poster child, the other is the idiot son of a goddess. They do not stand on their own.

There is another thread about whether or not the assistance of the gods diminishes the "heroism" of the Iliad's heroes. I would just like to point out that the heroes aren't as passive as your impression of them seems to be. A number of the heroes directly fight the gods in battle, even against the explicit orders of a god, and even Helen tries to resist Aphrodite's command to sleep with Paris.

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Furthermore, Paris is a wart.

Hmmm, it's hard to argue with that, but I'm not sure I would've been any stronger to resist the temptation. :)
01-28-2009, 03:52 PM
manolia

Quote:

Originally Posted by andave_ya

Homer's gods are meddlesome, irksome, petulant, childish, un-heroic, cheap, cheesy, irritating, manipulative jerks. I can't believe that Greeks actually believed in gods that behave worse than humans do. And yet Homer has them as the real heroes of the story. Who are Hector and Achilles? Are they actually heroic? One of them is Mars' poster child, the other is the idiot son of a goddess. They do not stand on their own.

The only one with any sense is Odysseus, even if he's Minerva's favorite.

Furthermore, Paris is a wart.

Haha yeah you are right. Greeks created their gods after their own image. With weeknesses and flaws. I always found that very interesting. Of course, i am an atheist and my opinion on god/s doesn't count much. Just for the record there are still people in greece who worship the 12 gods of the mount olympus. I've met some.
01-28-2009, 08:44 PM
bluevictim

Quote:

Originally Posted by manolia

Just for the record there are still people in greece who worship the 12 gods of the mount olympus. I've met some.

That's really interesting. Am I right to assume that they are not actually part of a long unbroken line of believers from antiquity, but rather a part of some movement started in more recent times?
01-29-2009, 07:09 AM
manolia

Yes..at least i think so. I've been to some of their meetings (out of curiosity) and it was fun :lol: Anyway they kinda exagerate about their numbers. They claim that they are way more than 50.000 (one told me they are about 100.000 but that i think is absurd). The estimation is about 45.000.
01-29-2009, 04:15 PM
bluevictim

Quote:

Originally Posted by manolia

Yes..at least i think so. I've been to some of their meetings (out of curiosity) and it was fun :lol:

Sounds interesting. I guess it shouldn't be too surprising, since the revival of pre-Christian religion seems to be popular in other places, too.

By the way, one more comment about andave_ya's amazement that the Greeks would believe in such gods: Many believe in the God of the Old Testament even though he also acted in ways that would be deemed immoral today (for example, by commanding the genocide of some nations), so I guess it's not that weird that the Greeks believed in Zeus' gang despite their behavior.
02-01-2009, 10:37 PM
andave_ya

Goodness! Thanks for the replies - I've really enjoyed reading them!

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluevictim

This reaction has been voiced by many since antiquity (Plato's Socrates, for example), so you must be onto something! The frivolity of the immortals is apparent to anybody reading the Iliad, and it brings out one of the most compelling themes of the poem -- the brevity of human life. The gods are not burdened by the consequences of their actions and decisions because they can never die. They do not have to come to grips with realizing that the fulfillment of some of their dreams is simply impossible; they never face the fact that there is no second chance for (human) life. It's not surprising, then, that they seem childish; they act like children and adolescents, who still see endless possibilities for life, who have yet to experience the crushing of their dreams, who have yet to feel the fist of time closing around their aspirations, who, in short, have not yet had to face their mortality.

Thanks - that post was enlightening. I can see I have a lot to learn about the Greek mythologies :blush:.
I hadn't thought of it that way, but it makes perfect sense. They're sort of stuck as children with superpowers - so really, they don't see that human, or mortal, life is precious? But what about their mortal children? Thetis told Achilles what would happen if he went to Troy, though like a good parent she let him make his own choice. And, there was another god's child who died in the Iliad - I forgot his name - and his father, I think it was Mars for some reason, raged about his death...

Quote:

Originally Posted by manolia

Haha yeah you are right. Greeks created their gods after their own image. With weeknesses and flaws. I always found that very interesting. Of course, i am an atheist and my opinion on god/s doesn't count much. Just for the record there are still people in greece who worship the 12 gods of the mount olympus. I've met some.

:eek2: really??? It must be interesting talking to them. What do they say about the frivolity of the gods, or is it forgiven?

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluevictim

By the way, one more comment about andave_ya's amazement that the Greeks would believe in such gods: Many believe in the God of the Old Testament even though he also acted in ways that would be deemed immoral today (for example, by commanding the genocide of some nations), so I guess it's not that weird that the Greeks believed in Zeus' gang despite their behavior.

:) I'm a Christian, and the reason I do believe in the God of the Old Testament is because everything changed once Jesus died :).

I assume you're talking about the Amalekites? He did command their genocide - yet at the time he did Israel was still primarily a theocracy; Saul was only just beginning to go awry. Those who attacked Israel knew that God was the head.
So I don't see it as weird - it makes perfect sense that a ruler would counterattack a nation that attacked his. That God is a ruler with far more power than mortals should have been obvious and should have tempered any nation's desire to fight God's chosen people...yet, well, humans can be

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meddlesome, irksome, petulant, childish, un-heroic, cheap, cheesy, irritating, manipulative jerks

.

:)
02-02-2009, 02:17 AM
bluevictim

Quote:

Originally Posted by andave_ya

They're sort of stuck as children with superpowers - so really, they don't see that human, or mortal, life is precious?

I'm not saying that the gods in the Iliad don't see life -- mortal or immortal -- as precious. I'm merely saying that the poem, by juxtaposing the carefree lives of the gods with the fatally consequential actions of the humans, emphasizes the shortness of human life and its implications. As you pointed out, the gods do care about their mortal children and favorites.

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What do they say about the frivolity of the gods, or is it forgiven?

One thing to remember is that there was no single supremely authoritative book for Greek religion. Aeschylus, for example, portrays the gods differently from Pindar, who portrays the gods differently than Homer. Even Homer's Odyssey differs from the Iliad in how the gods come across.

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:) I'm a Christian, and the reason I do believe in the God of the Old Testament is because everything changed once Jesus died :).

There are many people, of course, who don't believe that the death of Jesus affected the Old Testament much at all and still believe in the God of the Old Testament (albeit they might object to me calling the Hebrew Bible the "Old Testament").

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I assume you're talking about the Amalekites? He did command their genocide - yet at the time he did Israel was still primarily a theocracy; Saul was only just beginning to go awry. Those who attacked Israel knew that God was the head.
So I don't see it as weird - it makes perfect sense that a ruler would counterattack a nation that attacked his.

My intention is not to claim that God was immoral -- only to provide a parallel to help (hopefully) relate to the 'weirdness' of the Greeks' belief in ostensibly misbehaving gods. My point is that belief in God/gods is not really a function of whether or not they measure up to current standards of human morals.

Your justification of the genocide is one example of how believers get over the difficulty. Some of the ways the ancient Greeks dealt with it included: claiming that the stories about the gods' immoral behavior should be interpreted allegorically (as many Christians have done with respect to the Old Testament), asserting that the stories of the gods' immoral behavior should not be believed, and picking and choosing among different stories about the gods to believe (remember that they had no single authoritative religious book).
02-22-2009, 05:13 PM
andave_ya

oooops, I'm so sorry, I'd forgotten about this thread!! :flare:

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluevictim

One thing to remember is that there was no single supremely authoritative book for Greek religion. Aeschylus, for example, portrays the gods differently from Pindar, who portrays the gods differently than Homer. Even Homer's Odyssey differs from the Iliad in how the gods come across.

:eek2: I had no idea! I did notice that the gods are not as meddlesome in the Illiad, but I thought that was just the story. However, I'm reading the Aeneid now and, besides liking the different style, am getting interested in the gods again :p

Quote:

My intention is not to claim that God was immoral -- only to provide a parallel to help (hopefully) relate to the 'weirdness' of the Greeks' belief in ostensibly misbehaving gods. My point is that belief in God/gods is not really a function of whether or not they measure up to current standards of human morals.

You're absolutely right; I'm sorry. I did indeed put up a red herring (I think that's the right term ;))

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Your justification of the genocide is one example of how believers get over the difficulty. Some of the ways the ancient Greeks dealt with it included: claiming that the stories about the gods' immoral behavior should be interpreted allegorically (as many Christians have done with respect to the Old Testament), asserting that the stories of the gods' immoral behavior should not be believed, and picking and choosing among different stories about the gods to believe (remember that they had no single authoritative religious book).

Intriguing. It's weird; at the college I got accepted to I am required to take either Greek or Latin and I chose Greek. I've a lot to learn! :lol:
02-22-2009, 05:30 PM
curlyqlink

It is very interesting to me that the gods of the ancient world were not supposed to be paragons of "virtue". They strike me as very human, and very sympathetic. They are eminently comprehensible, their motives understandable.

I do not see them as children. They are noble. Noble in the way Nietzsche viewed nobility (the classics are in fact the his source of the definition of nobility). Nobility implies: power, determination, a strong will, a light spirit. Nobles make the rules, they do not follow them; they have no master but themselves.

Children are selfish and willful because they don't know any better. The pagan gods are selfish and willful because it is their right.

Reading a work like the Iliad, it is important to understand that "Christian virtues" had no place in that world. Meekness, humility and self-doubt were qualities one looked for in a slave, not in a leader or a god. Homer must be read from the point of view that it is good to be young and strong and proud, to exult in the power of youth.

It's a world where kings and gods should be arrogant, because they are strong and, quite frankly, they are better than everyone else. It's a world where the meek shall inherit... nothing.
02-22-2009, 05:58 PM
Virgil

Quote:

Originally Posted by manolia

Just for the record there are still people in greece who worship the 12 gods of the mount olympus. I've met some.

Are you serious? I have never heard that. I would be fascinated to meet or at least read something about them. Is there anything around you might recommend?
02-23-2009, 02:31 AM
bluevictim

Quote:

Originally Posted by andave_ya

However, I'm reading the Aeneid now and, besides liking the different style, am getting interested in the gods again :p

That's great that you're reading the Aeneid. Keep in mind that the Aeneid was written some seven centuries after the Iliad, and there had been quite a lot of changes in how people viewed the gods in the meantime.

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Intriguing. It's weird; at the college I got accepted to I am required to take either Greek or Latin and I chose Greek. I've a lot to learn! :lol:

Congratulations on being accepted! I'm sure you'll have a great time learning about the Greeks in college. :)
05-08-2009, 11:02 AM
cro

hello!! i really need your help...could someone list the ways gods are punished in homer's iliad?? i need this info for an essay...