Nora

I just finished reading this play and I quite enjoyed it. But I could not help but to feel sorry for Nora. I think she was quite wrongfully mistreated by just about everyone.

First I was furious with her supposed friend Linde. She had no right to decide to let Torvald know the truth, no matter she personally thought or believed, against Nora's wishes. It was not her place to make such a decision. After Nora secured her a job, and it was because of Nora that she reconnected with Krog, she threw Nora under the bus for her own high and mighty ideology.

Then the way Trevold treated her. He was ready to chuck her to the side, with out the least bit of trying to understand Nora's motives or reasons for what she did. Perhaps Nora was not correct in her actions, but still, she did it to save his life, and that is how he treats her. And then he had the nerve to "forgive" her once he discovered his own arse was going to be saved.

I was so happy that Nora did not fall for that little act of his and stood up for herself in the end. I applauded her walking out upon her husband and calling him out for how he treated her.

Even in his supposed "kindness" and "love" for her, he was really quite cruel at the root of it, as he was sickeningly patronizing and disrespectful to her, and truly looked down upon her as being quite a daft and silly creature. Indeed he barely treated her as being little more then one of the other children.

Though I am still angry for what Linde did, I am glad that it did enable Nora to finally see the truth.

In the Lawrence thread right now we have been discussing the story The Princess, and some comparisons were made between "The Princess" Dolly, and Nora, because in the story Dolly is described as being this sort of eternal child who never truly grows up. But after reading this play I think it is unfair to say that of Nora. In the case of Nora, it was other people who treated her as if she were nothing but a child, but I do not think Nora herself was really that way, she was just never given the chance to really express herself. She acted according to what other people expected of her. She was always looked down upon and just patted on the head so she had little opportunity to prove otherwise.

But in the end she did finally come to her own and broke free, to finally have a chance to be herself.

I'm so pleased, Dark Muse, that I am not alone in reading and loving Ibsen. I'm currently seeking 'Emperor and Galilean' through inter-library loan.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

First I was furious with her supposed friend Linde. She had no right to decide to let Torvald know the truth, no matter she personally thought or believed, against Nora's wishes.

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Linde certainly acts in a radical way by exposing the truth about Nora's marriage. And Nora is appalled! Why? She assumes that Torvald, the moral giant, will immediately take all the blame for the forgery upon himself. He will become a willing scapegoat for his beloved wife. But Mrs Linde knows better.

Mrs Linde, who has experienced a bad marriage herself, is a true friend and acts with great courage, as do many of Ibsen's women (e.g. Hedvig Ekdal in 'The Wild Duck').

MRS. LINDE: Not even any sorrow or grief to live upon.

Though I agree that the outcome was ultimately a positive one, I do not think that gave Linde the right to do as she had done, and I had not found her action to be particuarly courageous, as she was not really taking on any personal risk to herself.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

Though I agree that the outcome was ultimately a positive one, I do not think that gave Linde the right to do as she had done, and I had not found her action to be particuarly courageous, as she was not really taking on any personal risk to herself.

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Mrs Linde had no right to do as she did. She acted out of radical love for her friend and, at the end of the play, a free Nora is eternally grateful to her.

Was her action 'courageous'? I think so. She certainly gambled that Nora would ultimately view her intervention as positive. As the future wife of Krogstad, who will be working under Torvald in the bank, Mrs Linde can ill afford to be seen as marriage-breaker in a culture with Victorian morals.

Since Nora leaves Torvald, Mrs Linde's intervention carries little risk to herself. But more dangerous eventualities were possible. Nora may have chosen to stay with Torvald despite his narcissism. He may have notified the police of her forgery. Or, acting out Nora's worst fears, Torvald may have taken the rap for her forgery. In all these cases, Mrs Linde’s intervention would be seen negatively by Nora and others. Mrs Linde's reputation would plummet.

Mrs Linde and Nora Helmer are free and brave women surrounded by weaker men.

But no matter what the outcome would have been, I do not think Nora would have held Linde as being responsible and well she suggested that if her husband took on the blame she was going to kill herself to spare him, no one has any idea that Linde intervened but Nora and Krog, and I do not think either would have exposed her as having to do with the plot, so I do not see her position as being in much danger.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

But no matter what the outcome would have been, I do not think Nora would have held Linde as being responsible

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Torvald only discovers Nora's forgery once the likelihood of exposure has apparently passed. Unexpectedly and shockingly, against Nora's express wishes, Mrs Linde deliberately facilitates exposure of the forgery. Otherwise Nora's doll's house could have stood shakily for decades.

Unlike Nora, Mrs Linde judges well the character of Torvald. If that judgement had been wrong, Mrs Linde would bear responsibility for: Torvald or Nora's imprisonment, Nora's suicide, or a further souring of this doll's house marriage. At worst, Christine Linde’s exposure would compromise, devastate and bereave a truly righteous man. In such circumstances, I cannot share your confidence that Nora's charity toward Mrs Linde would survive.

Nora shows her eventual respect for Mrs Linde’s exposure by saying, 'I am going away from here now, at once. I am sure Christine will take me in for the night--'.

But even when she knows that Linde is not going to have the letter taken away she does not express any anger toward her nor show any sign of wanting to retaliate against her. She simply accepts it and decides to kill herself before she discovers her husbands reactions.

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Nora: I won't tell him

Mrs. L: Then the letter will

Nora: Thank you, Christine. Now I know what I must do

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No matter what the outcome there is no indication of any repercussions against Linde. Nora does not begrudge her.

Wow, I just viewed this play and other Ibsen plays in an Ibsen collection I bought recently - the collection is super - 8 plays and 9 audiofiles from radio broadcasts...Classic BBC Collection.....well worth the money. I loved "A Doll's House"...the actress playing Nora was superb. I love the character and her last lines while talking 'straight' to Torvald. Torvald just crumbles and falls to pieces and Nora stands firm. It is a great scene.
I also watched "Ghosts", "Hedda Garbler" and "The Master Builder"...I never realised just how great Ibsen was. I enjoyed them all and can't wait to view all the rest and listen to the audiofile plays as well. Someone mentioned "Emperor and Galilean'? Well, that is one of the audiofiles on the set. I will be getting to those after I view all the rest.

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Originally Posted by Janine

I also watched "Ghosts", "Hedda Gabler" and "The Master Builder"...I never realised just how great Ibsen was.

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'The Master Builder', Janine, is joyous magic. 'Hedda Gabler' is more difficult until you recognise the frequent allusion to family: at the end, the orphans Tesman and his old flame Elvsted move in to the much-loved family home with precious Aunt Juli and Lovborg's fragmented but wanted child. I must confess 'Ghosts' has defeated me even after a re-read; other Ibsen plays make some sense.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

She simply accepts it and decides to kill herself before she discovers her husband's reactions...No matter what the outcome there is no indication of any repercussions against Linde. Nora does not begrudge her.

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You're right, Dark Muse. Nora is immediately resigned to ending the awful tension and her own life.

But did Mrs Linde predict this, and had she anticipated the ramifications of a suicide? What if Nora had been right about Torvald's integrity after all? Christine Linde's radical decision surely involves the unpredictable.

Even if Nora did kill herself, though Linde might feel some guilt, she is still not putting herself at risk. Her actions was more stemmed from her own selfish idea of what should or should not happen. I do not think she did what she did as a selfless act of goodwill, but because it was what she personally beleived was the right thing to do, and she did not truly care for Nora's feelings or the state of Nora's relationship and how it might turn out when Trevold discovered the truth.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

Even if Nora did kill herself, though Linde might feel some guilt, she is still not putting herself at risk.

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Perhaps so. In the middle of the night, a new slant on Mrs Linde flashed into mind.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

Her actions more stemmed from her own selfish idea of what should or should not happen. I do not think she did what she did as a selfless act of goodwill...

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I now see Mrs Christine Linde as a messianic character, like the sacrificial lamb, Hedwig, in 'The Wild Duck'. Christ-like, Hedwig dies so that her estranged parents, Hjalmar and Gina, may live.

What role does Christine (or Christina) play? She arrives with Nora in dire trouble. Heaven sent, the long-suffering Christine brings hope through her connection with Krogstad. She promises salvation through retrieving the exposure letter but delivers much more by declining to do so. This Christ figure redeems Nora from the clutches of Torvald and his doll's house. Nora ultimately flees into her loving arms for temporary refuge.

Christine is a messiah coming 'to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free' (Isaiah 58:6). As Krogstad says of his saviour:

KROGSTAD. (grasps her hands).
Thanks, thanks, Christine! Now I shall find a way to clear myself in the eyes of the world.

Ibsen is marvellous, even though insight may come months after reading him.

Janine, in ‘The Master Builder’, Hilda is a messianic figure. In ‘Hedda Gabler’, Lovberg’s ‘History of the Future’ is a Christ-child in the manger of that final Nativity scene with devoted parents, Tesman and Elvsted.

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Originally Posted by Gladys

Janine, in ‘The Master Builder’, Hilda is a messianic figure. In ‘Hedda Gabler’, Lovberg’s ‘History of the Future’ is a Christ-child in the manger of that final Nativity scene with devoted parents, Tesman and Elvsted.

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Haha, you know how much I disagree with that one.

And I disagree with Mrs. Linde as well. She comitted an act of betrayl, which in the long run turned out to be a posistive thing. That does not excuse her actions. It was Nora that ultimately "saved" Mrs. Linde. Nora got her the job, Nora reunited her with Krog.

Mrs. Linde, then determined that she was going to play God with Nora's life, no matter the consequences, she was going to do what she wanted to do, becasue of her own perosnal sense of morality and imposing that upon others.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

And I disagree with Mrs. Linde as well. She committed an act of betrayal, which in the long run turned out to be a positive thing. That does not excuse her actions. It was Nora that ultimately "saved" Mrs. Linde. Nora got her the job, Nora reunited her with Krog.

Mrs. Linde, then determined that she was going to play God with Nora's life, no matter the consequences, she was going to do what she wanted to do, because of her own personal sense of morality and imposing that upon others.

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It has just dawned on me, Dark Muse, why we differ so. You seem to view Mrs Linde and Hilda through the dispassionate eyes of an observer, seated in the audience. From that perspective I can only agree with your interpretations.

Ibsen, however, invites us to see the situation through the eyes of the title character of each play. Predominantly, I see what the doll (Nora) sees, and what Solness (the play is titled 'Bygmester Solness') sees. Both of them perceive a liberator (Christine Linde and Hilda respectively) coming from afar to provide a ray of hope in an otherwise appalling and intractable situation. Both are ultimately rescued in decidedly ironic ways: Nora by walking out on her husband and little children; Solness by a heroic death (suicide?) restoring life to his long suffering wife, Aline. And both are eternally grateful to their rescuers, despite their radical actions.

We should empathise with Nora and Solness, with their predicament. Isn’t that Ibsen’s wish?

I empatheice with Nora and Solness, but not with Linde and Hilde, becasue I view them as human beings, and as thier actions as human actions, that I perceive as faulty. Rather then seeing them as archtypes.

To call them Christ-like is to remove thier humaness, which then one has not choice but to idolize everything they do.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

I empathise with Nora and Solness, but not with Linde and Hilde, because I view them as human beings, and as their actions as human actions, that I perceive as faulty. Rather then seeing them as archetypes.

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In emphasising with Nora and Solness, you will see their own faults and falsehoods are so overwhelming that they are oblivious to failings in Christine Linde or Hilde. Nora and Solness are whole-heartedly indebted to their rescuers. They well understand the scripture:

Luke 6:41___And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

To call them Christ-like is to remove their humanness, which then one has not choice but to idolize everything they do.

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Neither Linde and Hilde are Christ-like, but serve as saviour and redeemer to the title characters Nora and Solness. Nora and Solness have infinitely more to worry about than the social insensitivities of Christine Linde and Hilde. In the big picture, their radical behaviour is a god-send. Had they behaved more sensitively, Nora and Solness would have surely succumbed to their terrible burdens, and the plays would be tragedies.

The two plays deal with the rehabilitation, the chance of a new life, for heavy-laden Nora and Solness (decidedly paradoxical in his case). At the end, both are born again. Ibsen draws on messianic imagery here, as he does elsewhere.