Do u think King Lear died from grief or joy??
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Do u think King Lear died from grief or joy??
I offer Kent's opinion,
Vex not his ghost: O, let him pass! he hates him much
That would upon the rack of this tough world
Stretch him out longer.
But the last scene offers different interpretation.
King lear thought that Cordelia is still alive; when he shouted look look at her lips .
I think that when lear dies from grief it would be a very predictable end ;but when he dies from joy it would be the extreme of tragedy and irony too;THIS IS THE GENIUS OF SHAKESPEARE !!
Moreover in lear's last speech there is a shift in the mood through the insertion of the line in which he addressed Kent.We feel that this deviation has a dramatic effect ;it deviates our attention a little then Shakespeare offers us this very tragic and ironical end.
If u check the passage I am speaking of u would understand what I mean.
Best regards,
I am unconvinced, for as Kent says much earlier, "Lear is mad". Albany, a paragon of honesty, confirms this 'madness', "He knows not what he says: and vain it is | That we present us to him". Lear's, "Look, her lips" is wishful thinking, but heart-rending to hear. As with all who die except Cordelia, Shakespeare may have had in mind the scripture, 'the wages of sin is death'. With Cordelia's death (and the poor Fool's death[?]), Lear is paid double (or maybe triple) wages. All tragedy.Quote:
Originally Posted by caddy_caddy
Kent, throughout the play, is the herald of 'truth'. Seeing Lear's death in a tragic light, Kent says, "Break, heart; I prithee, break!" Is Kent, the 'witness to the truth', mistaken only at the end? I think not.
There is a shift in Lear's mood. He changes from defiance after killing Cordelia's hangman, to desolation about the hand fate has dealt him, "Never, never, never, never, never!" Tragic.Quote:
Originally Posted by caddy_caddy
I am unconvinced, for as Kent says much earlier, "Lear is mad". Albany, a paragon of honesty, confirms this 'madness', "He knows not what he says: and vain it is | That we present us to him".
lear's madness or Albany's honesty is not the subject of my discussion;we know that lear got mad and Shakespeare depicted the stage of his madness in a very cunning way ; The real cause at the moment of death cannot be prooved by Albany or Kent.
Lear must be dead but the way in which he died has to do with Lear's character; U mentioned a key to his character " whisful_thinking".
Lear has always those whisful -thinkings and their effect on him is always fatal.His behabiour throughout the whole play is based upon it not upon a real insight within the character of his daughters.
It is consistent with his characterization that Shakespeare presents this last wishful-thinking.
Technically speaking it is much more tragic ,ironical,and pitiful.I thought of it as shakespearean by excellence ,otherwise it is less than Shakespeare.
Lear's, "Look, her lips" is wishful thinking, but heart-rending to hear. As with all who die except Cordelia, Shakespeare may have had in mind the scripture, 'the wages of sin is death'. With Cordelia's death (and the poor Fool's death[?]), Lear is paid double (or maybe triple) wages. All tragedy.
Kent, throughout the play, is the herald of 'truth'. Seeing Lear's death in a tragic light, Kent says, "Break, heart; I prithee, break!" Is Kent, the 'witness to the truth', mistaken only at the end? I think not.
I am unconvinced, for as Kent says much earlier, "Lear is mad". Albany, a paragon of honesty, confirms this 'madness', "He knows not what he says: and vain it is | That we present us to him".
lear's madness or Albany's honesty is not the subject of my discussion;we know that lear got mad and Shakespeare depicted the stage of his madness in a very cunning way ; The real cause at the moment of death cannot be prooved by Albany or Kent.
Lear must be dead but the way in which he died has to do with Lear's character; U mentioned a key to his character " whisful-thinking".
Lear has always those whisful -thinkings and their effect on him is always fatal.His behabiour throughout the whole play is based upon it not upon a real insight within the character of his daughters.
It is consistent with his characterization that Shakespeare presents this last wishful-thinking:why he did it??
Technically speaking it is much more tragic ,ironical,and pitiful.I thought of it as shakespearean by excellence ,otherwise it is less than Shakespeare.
Lear's, "Look, her lips" is wishful thinking, but heart-rending to hear. As with all who die except Cordelia, Shakespeare may have had in mind the scripture, 'the wages of sin is death'. With Cordelia's death (and the poor Fool's death[?]), Lear is paid double (or maybe triple) wages. All tragedy.
Kent, throughout the play, is the herald of 'truth'. Seeing Lear's death in a tragic light, Kent says, "Break, heart; I prithee, break!" Is Kent, the 'witness to the truth', mistaken only at the end? I think not.
I am unconvinced, for as Kent says much earlier, "Lear is mad". Albany, a paragon of honesty, confirms this 'madness', "He knows not what he says: and vain it is | That we present us to him".
lear's madness or Albany's honesty is not the subject of my discussion;we know that lear got mad and Shakespeare depicted the stage of his madness in a very cunning way ; The real cause at the moment of death cannot be prooved by Albany or Kent.
Lear must be dead but the way in which he died has to do with Lear's character; U mentioned a key to his character " whisful_thinking".
Lear has always those whisful -thinkings and their effect on him is always fatal.His behabiour throughout the whole play is based upon it not upon a real insight within the character of his daughters.
It is consistent with his characterization that Shakespeare presents this last wishful-thinking.
Technically speaking it is much more tragic ,ironical,and pitiful.I thought of it as shakespearean by excellence ,otherwise it is less than Shakespeare.
Lear's, "Look, her lips" is wishful thinking, but heart-rending to hear. As with all who die except Cordelia, Shakespeare may have had in mind the scripture, 'the wages of sin is death'. With Cordelia's death (and the poor Fool's death[?]), Lear is paid double (or maybe triple) wages. All tragedy.
Kent, throughout the play, is the herald of 'truth'. Seeing Lear's death in a tragic light, Kent says, "Break, heart; I prithee, break!" Is Kent, the 'witness to the truth', mistaken only at the end? I think not.
We differ, I think, less on the details of 'King Lear' than on how literature is to be understood. Here's my recipe for making sense of literature, or indeed almost any written text. Consider Lear's words:Quote:
Originally Posted by caddy_caddy
Pray you, undo this button: thank you, sir.
Do you see this? Look on her, look, her lips,
Look there, look there!
To understand these, I first consider the immediate context. The 'Sir' in the quote is Kent because, earlier in the scene, we have, KENT [Kneeling] "O my good master!" The second 'you' is Kent and possibly Albany, who spoke just before Lear. Kent and Albany were Lear's closest companions at the start of the play. So Lear is addressing men of integrity, who have spoken nothing but the truth throughout the play. Through their eyes, I must make sense of the words of an old, demented and traumatised king.
Second, I consider the overall context. In this fable of a play, Lear gets his just deserts: after the foolhardy division of his kingdom, disasters continue all the way to the grave, Cordelia's death being the worst. And Lear becomes increasingly mad.
My recipe for making sense of literature leads me to reject your explanation of the quote. Lear does not die joyful.
What is your recipe?
We differ, I think, less on the details of 'King Lear' than on how literature is to be understood. Here's my recipe for making sense of literature, or indeed almost any written text.
I have the same recipe as u ,I've never tried to impose my self upon the text ; I rely a lot on the contextual analysis but not as a seperate entity. I relate it to other contexts , other devices and so on.
Moreover I think in literature we have not only sense but feeling too(the meaning is evoked through sense ,feeling ,tone and intention)
Consider Lear's words:
Pray you, undo this button: thank you, sir.
Do you see this? Look on her, look, her lips,
Look there, look there!
To understand these, I first consider the immediate context. The 'Sir' in the quote is Kent because, earlier in the scene, we have, KENT [Kneeling] "O my good master!" The second 'you' is Kent and possibly Albany, who spoke just before Lear. Kent and Albany were Lear's closest companions at the start of the play. So Lear is addressing men of integrity, who have spoken nothing but the truth throughout the play. Through their eyes, I must make sense of the words of an old, demented and traumatised king.
Yeh . we know thatb ut this old ,demented and traumatized king still a father who cannot accept the death of his Cordelia. We cannot neglect his feelings at that moment because we connot rely on his sense. Lear is still questioning the justice of her death, still rebellious,(it is a question and his tone is full of anger )
So if u agree with me that the last sentence is a wishful- thinking ,why don't u agree that he could have died because of it?!
u would say there is nothing in the text that support this evidence . What about lear's character ? Isn't in his character ( what I mentioned in the previous posting)
What about the writer intention (tragic effect , pity and fear also mentioned in the previous posting)?
Doesn't make sense?
would u tell me plz what do u think of ken't speech that comes after lear's .
KENT: the wonder is he hath endured so long
He but usrped his life.
Why the wonder ??
Is it because lear endured a lot of suffering but he cannot endured the joy of immagining that his Cordelia may be still alive?
I think it is worth pausing at .
Any how we are to interchange our ideas but not necassary to convince each other.
Best regards,
Second, I consider the overall context. In this fable of a play, Lear gets his just deserts: after the foolhardy division of his kingdom, disasters continue all the way to the grave, Cordelia's death being the worst. And Lear becomes increasingly mad.
My recipe for making sense of literature leads me to reject your explanation of the quote. Lear does not die joyful.
What is your recipe?
This is hardly a response to my paragraph on Albany and Kent, explaining the contextual importance of their commentary in helping us to interpret Lear's last words.Quote:
Originally Posted by caddy_caddy
Earl of Kent. The wonder is, he hath endur'd so long.I would paraphrase Kent, “King Lear has endured so much. He has been driven gradually to madness by his 'tiger' daughters, by the terrible storm, by the life of a fugitive, by the loss of his kingship, by old age, and by his appalling misjudgement of Cordelia and me. I amazed that all this anguish has not killed him earlier. Still, Lear brought this upon himself; he seized his life, his well-being, by the throat and well-nigh strangled it. He effectively usurped his life, foregoing a happy retirement.”
He but usurp'd his life.
Indeed, the purpose of a forum is that we ‘interchange our ideas’.
yeh we know that but... this was my reply:)
It means that my " response to your explanation of that paragraph is a complete agreement !!!
is it a good response ???;)
Following the five stages of tragedy (encroachment, complication, reversal, catastrophe, and recognition) I believe that Lear died an unhappy death. Throughout the play he showed signs of chest pains and gripped at his heart numerous times which leads me to believe that he died of a heart attack because the sorrow that built up continually through the play. The death of Cordelia was the last push into an endless amount of sorrow which Lear could not bear and his heart gave out.
Perhaps grief is the wrong word, and despair (in a sort of Kierkegaardian way) is more adequate.
Lear dies of despair.