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Yay!! Winter's Tale won. Now I'll have to dig out my Shakespeare. :D
HEY!!!!! I missed the vote!!!!
Gee, I wish someone gave me a KitKat everytime you say that, Papaya! ;)
:lol: me too! That reminds me, I think I need something sweet to eat right now.
I will have to dig out my audio CD's and start listening tonight; refresh my memory. Wow, this should be fun!
I've never read that one. I'll try to join in, though my eyes aren't well still, but I'll try to read as much as I can.
Er, if I recall "Shakespeare the Invention of the Human" Bloom tries to drift away from the Romance title, and place them as tragicomedies.
Ah yes, you are right, he seems to try to reject the title, but eventually ends up agreeing with it. I was mixing his book up with the much thinner volume of Shakespeare criticism by Northrop Frye, entitled Northrop Frye on Shakespeare, though Frye eventually accepts the category of romance as the inevitable label (a rather interesting read when compared to Bloom's, though Bloom claims him as one of his major influences, their views on Shakespeare are almost completely different). Pastoral Lyric seems about true for 1/3-1/2 of the play, while the others I would term high drama. Surely the High Mimetic mode of the first half goes against the pastoral nature of the second half that this play makes this play extremely difficult to place, relative to the other works. It would be fair to say that both Bloom and Frye are correct, as are other critics, though such genre labels are rather futile since this is one of Shakespeare's more experimental, and unique plays, and offers a vaster range than most of his other plays, because of the time lapse in the middle.
Oh, it finished at last.
*cracks knuckles* better get cracking then....:D
Again?! :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by papayahed
Antiquarian and JBI, I have always been confused about the categories and how scholars go about labeling Shakespeare's plays - they all seem to differ in their opinions on the subject. I think there are fine lines here between all types of plays -comedical/tragedical/pastoral/historical - that is just my own personal thought and always has been. Everyone of Shakespeare's so called Comedies contain elements of each in my opinion. When the tragerians come to entertain Hamlet, Polonius rattles off this line referring to the newly arrived players and what they have to offer:Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
I thought this interesting, (helps to be watching and reading Hamlet presently, ;) Anti will get what I mean here) because of all the categories, or mixed categories spoken in this excerpt and these are actually Shakespeare's own words; therefore, I wondered if they reflect how he felt about his plays and the idea of placing them into specific categories. Reading this, it seems to me as though he realises and is trying to convey, that they all overlap in category, within each play. As Polonius reads this off, it is a rather humorous part of the play - quite comical. In this moment with Polonius, was Shakespeare poking some fun at categorising his body of work?Quote:
The best actors in the world, either for tragedy, comedy, history, pastoral, pastoral-comical, historical-pastoral, tragical-historical, tragical-comedical-historical-pastoral, scene individable, or poem unlimited: Seneca cannot be too heavy nor Plautus too light. For the law of writ and the liberty, these are all the only men.
I am not sure what is meant exactly, by that last line. I have only a vague idea; the beginning of it seems to sum things up and the part -'the only men' he is referring to the players.
Antiquarian, you wrote this before, the above passage I quoted from you:
I don't know - why must you do so? I have heard so much debate on this subject, online and in books; I don't think one has to actually decide, one way or the other; nor bow to one scholar's opinion. Just because one is a scholar does not mean they are 100% correct. I think the choice should be individual anyway. I know I read "Pericles" and I would never call that pastoral, pastoral-lyric, or late romance....I felt it had some very tragic elements or at least very sad throughout most of that play. In fact, in my own book, it is listed under the tragedies.Quote:
I would call the play a tragicomedy, but I have to bow to Bloom's superior expertise.
In the end, I think it is probably insignificant as to just what category it is placed into. I may have started this discussion by mentioning, some serious or tragic areas of this particular play. When I first listened to this play, on audiofile, a year or so ago, I felt it had a very sad tone to it. I was then wondering why in-the-world, it was called a 'comedy' in my own book. I admit my book is an older version without any true commentary added.Quote:
There's been some debate already over whether this is a comedy or a tragedy. I think both Janine and I agree that it's more of a tragicomedy.
I have a book by Harold Bloom that lists it as a "late romance."
When I read all the histories, a few years ago, I finally concluded that some of those actually were also tragedies, so I guess then, they could be as Polonius was reading off his paper from the players, as 'tragical-historical'. Now for my own satisfaction, I think I will call this play "The Winter's Tale" -'tragical-comedical-pastoral' :lol: That seems to sum it all up!
YAY! I think I'm going to have to dig through my Shakespeare pile for the play....that might take a while...
[QUOTE=Janine;585734]Antiquarian and JBI, I have always been confused about the categories and how scholars go about labeling Shakespeare's plays.....these are actually Shakespeare's own words; therefore, I wondered if they reflect how he felt about his plays and the idea of placing them into specific categories. Reading this, it seems to me as though he realises and is trying to convey, that they all overlap in category, within each play. ...In this moment with Polonius, was Shakespeare poking some fun at categorising his body of work? ....In the end, I think it is probably insignificant as to just what category it is placed into....QUOTE]
How about we just get on and read the play? We can perhaps come to some conclusion after having read it, rather than before.
To start the ball rolling:
Act I Sc i: Sets the scene - Polixenes, King of Bohemia, has been on an extended visit to his life-long friend, Leontes, King of Sicilia. The friendship between the two monarchs extends to members of their courts as Archidamus of Bohemia extends a warm invitation to Camillo, Leontes' trusted councillor. Though it sounds like one of those courteous and diplomatic invitations that are issued without much thought of it ever being taken up (and we've all issued those from time to time, I'm sure!), it enables Camillo to make a hasty flight in the next scene.
Act I sc ii: Polixenes proposes to return home and at first refuses to be persuded by Leontes to stay a little longer. Leontes calls on his wife, Hermione, to add her voice to his persuasions but when she is successful in changing Polixenes' mind, becomes suspicious of the warm relationship between his wife and his friend. He questions Camillo as to the general opinion of the relationship but is not convinced by Camillo's surprised denial of any obvious infidelity. Leontes convinces Camillo of Polixenes' guilt and Camillo ofers to take advantage of being cup-bearer to the visitor and poison him. Leontes accepts the offer but when he has gone, Camillo reveals the plan to an astounded Polixenes; together they plan to flee the Sicilian court.
What do you make of Leontes' jealousy? And what do you make of Camillo's behaviour?