can song lyrics be considered poerty/prose?

i generaly find that many people hold the viewpoint that 'lyrics' can not be poerty, despite the likes of dante's lyrical poetry. i personally think that they all constitute poetry/prise as the contain words. in lou reed's album 'new york' each song contains enough substance to be expanded into a novel. also reed once said that if 'heroin' had been a novel, for example a burroughs piece- there would have been no controvasy. i'd put ian curtis on a par with ballard et al, and leonard cohen and dylan? well we all know about them...

They are certainly poetry, since poetry is a form of language.
THey are not poems, which is a form of text. If you try to transform every other art (in this kind music) to literature, you will just downgrade the vallue of those arts. Lou Reed - great musician, why does he need to be called of something else? (Plus, having enough substance to be expanded to a novel? What that is supposed to mean, that a form of expression can be transformed in another form of expression? What is new about that?)

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Originally Posted by JCamilo

(Plus, having enough substance to be expanded to a novel? What that is supposed to mean, that a form of expression can be transformed in another form of expression? What is new about that?)

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it means that generally speaking music lyrics are considered to lack substance and with novels the longer novels are generaly considered to contain more substance, (possibly a side effect of some authors waffling). whereas in a song say 'romeo had juliet' there is a very high literary quality to it which should not be disregarded due to the form. it appars that you disagree with this general assumption but i assure you my comment is based on hard research compiled through life. maybe, (and very likely), i haven't come across those who find joy in the writen form. :)

hmm.. i think that some lyrics can be considered as literature.. after all weren't some of the greatest genres in literature, ie. the sonnet, meant to be sang? i'm not sure on this and my brain is a little rusty so... anyway.

there is this band here in the Philippines, Hale, that i'm a fan of, and one big reason is due to their lyics. the lyrics to their debut song, Broken Sonnet:

And now I concede
On the night of this fifteenth song
Of melancholy, of melancholy
And in this next line
I'll say it all over again
That I love you, I love you

I don’t care what they say
I don’t care what they do
‘cause tonight I'll leave my fears behind
‘cause tonight I'll be right at your side

Lie down right next to me
Lie down right next to me
And I will never let go
Will never let go

The clock on the tv says 8:39 pm
It’s the same, it’s the same
And in this next line
I'll say it all over again
That I love you, I love you

I don’t care what they say
I don’t care what they do
‘cause tonight I'll leave my fears behind
‘cause tonight I'll be right at your side

Lie down right next to me
Lie down right next to me
And I will never let go
Will never let go

I'll leave my fears behind
‘cause tonight I'll be right at your side.

But still I see the tears from your eyes
Maybe I'm just not the one for you


i remember reading once that since they were adding some of the new 'slang' terms to a certain dictionary, justin timberlake, et al., could already be considered the Shakespeare of today. i think i was ten or eleven and i felt appalled, really. most lyrics just can't be considered literature, but of course there are some exceptions.

I think that though the music itself can be a form of poetry, but not a poem, i also think that the lyrics, when written down, are a poem. many songs actually start as poems that are later put to music. so yes, i think song lyrics can be considered poetry.

Perhaps the better question would be: are song lyrics GOOD poetry?

I cannot follow you, my love,
you cannot follow me.
I am the distance you put between
all of the moments that we will be.
You know who I am,
you've stared at the sun,
well I am the one who loves
changing from nothing to one.

Sometimes I need you naked,
sometimes I need you wild,
I need you to carry my children in
and I need you to kill a child.

You know who I am...

If you should ever track me down
I will surrender there
and I will leave with you one broken man
whom I will teach you to repair.

You know who I am...

I cannot follow you, my love,
you cannot follow me.
I am the distance you put between
all of the moments that we will be.

You know who I am...

(c) l. cohen

Let's no judge vallue (if it is good or not).
The writen words, the lyrics of anything, can be regarded as literature.
His question is however another, if they can be poetry or prose.

Poetry, if we ignore those using the synounimous that means nothing (as poems) is the use of language, born before the writen text. You do not need to write anything down to use poetry - so the lyrics use poetic devices, they are poetry. They are not poems because poems is a writen form of text, without doubt derivated from oral form, but once put in a paper they are a writen work.
You can even call the lyrics alone a poem, but that is misleading. First, one musician works his words to be sung, they are mixed with the tunes, etc. They are complete as a song, just like the pictures of movie, despite a movie being pictures in sequence, are not a movie. Other thing, music happened before the literature, if you get a art with her own power (Music) and call the work of this art (the song, which lyrics is a part) and his artist (the musician) as another literature, you are causing an inversion of vallue - A musician must be reggarded with all his power as musician. It is status enough.

Jikan, I do not disagree that a good lyric, some of them, are exceptional and have strong literary vallues - I am saying they have also musical vallues because they are complete as songs. I would never think novels are more substance than anything (I mean, Code Da Vince or Dom Quixote ?). And basically, the theme of a music, of a statue, a painting, etc, all have potential to inspire a text.

P.s. Leonardo Cohen is a great example, since he is a rare case of good poet and great music writer - He keeps saying that writing a poem is different from writing for a song. Yet, if I listen to So Long Marianne, the "field green lilac park" is just alive within my head. Great poetry, great song.

After doing a unit on Byron, Shelly, and Keats my high school English teacher passed out a copy of a poem and asked everyone who they thought the author was. Most people guessed one of the three we had just studied, but a couple said Shakespeare. I was the last person in the class and I couldn’t believe no one was getting it. I didn’t speak much in class, but when it was my turn I said Paul Simon and everyone looked at me like I was from another planet. I was embarrassed but I was also right. I have to say some music is poetry.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JCamilo

Let's no judge vallue (if it is good or not).
The writen words, the lyrics of anything, can be regarded as literature.
His question is however another, if they can be poetry or prose.

Poetry, if we ignore those using the synounimous that means nothing (as poems) is the use of language, born before the writen text. You do not need to write anything down to use poetry - so the lyrics use poetic devices, they are poetry. They are not poems because poems is a writen form of text, without doubt derivated from oral form, but once put in a paper they are a writen work.
You can even call the lyrics alone a poem, but that is misleading. First, one musician works his words to be sung, they are mixed with the tunes, etc. They are complete as a song, just like the pictures of movie, despite a movie being pictures in sequence, are not a movie. Other thing, music happened before the literature, if you get a art with her own power (Music) and call the work of this art (the song, which lyrics is a part) and his artist (the musician) as another literature, you are causing an inversion of vallue - A musician must be reggarded with all his power as musician. It is status enough.

Jikan, I do not disagree that a good lyric, some of them, are exceptional and have strong literary vallues - I am saying they have also musical vallues because they are complete as songs. I would never think novels are more substance than anything (I mean, Code Da Vince or Dom Quixote ?). And basically, the theme of a music, of a statue, a painting, etc, all have potential to inspire a text.

P.s. Leonardo Cohen is a great example, since he is a rare case of good poet and great music writer - He keeps saying that writing a poem is different from writing for a song. Yet, if I listen to So Long Marianne, the "field green lilac park" is just alive within my head. Great poetry, great song.

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so long marianne was first a poem before a song which show you how unless you know it can be hard to tell (despite obvious ones). mother, you back up this point

I do not get you, Marianne is exactly the good option because it is her (the Marianne) that caused Cohen to change poem writing to music creation and have both qualities - But read well, rare case. I rest with Cohen own words.

"People often ask me whether I set the poems to music, but I think I know the difference between a lyric and a poem. Most of my songs began with the phrase of music and a phrase of the lyric. Usually, the tunes were completed before the lyric. Then, there’s that long process of uncovering the lyric, and fitting it to the melody. "

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Originally Posted by motherhubbard

After doing a unit on Byron, Shelly, and Keats my high school English teacher passed out a copy of a poem and asked everyone who they thought the author was. Most people guessed one of the three we had just studied, but a couple said Shakespeare. I was the last person in the class and I couldn’t believe no one was getting it. I didn’t speak much in class, but when it was my turn I said Paul Simon and everyone looked at me like I was from another planet. I was embarrassed but I was also right. I have to say some music is poetry.

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Or that some students know nothing about style. Lets be honest, who cannot distinguish between Shakespeare, Byron, and Simon. The Language is completely different. It's like comparing Chaucer with Shakespeare; you can clearly see which is which.

That doesn't make the Simon song any better or worse, it just means that all these kids barely understand mechanics.

I am in agreement with an above poster, the question really is "are these songs good poetry." Songs are poetry, the problem is that most of them suck. You don't need good poetry for a good song, especially with modern trends.

The lyrics of Shane McGowan and Bob Dylan stand up as poetry in their own right.

I just wanted to name Bob Dylan... :)

Hmm Leonard Cohen should be up there too. He is actually somewhat renowned as a poet here.