This God thing

This is an enigma that we human beings believe in God and live with so many ideals. Are we superior to animal beings? I doubt in point of fact.

We are indeed superior just because we are armed with weapons can can kill human beings in wars and battles? We are superior just because we can destroy nature and degrade ecological conditions?

Does our God protect us from being cruel and ruthless? Does man's belief in heaven and hell make us kinder and more generous to other living beings?

Of course there is brutality in nature and animals are set against one another and kill. Are we morally better or ethically better than animal beings?

Does our idea of God help us overcomie our brutalities?

These questions always intrigue me.

I am indeed not a disbeliever either. I read the Gita, the Veda, the Bible, the Koran.
I feel I am sublimated after going sacred books of course, yet there are shades of doubt, and the skeptic within me at times become manifest.

What do you feel about this?

First, I believe that animals are incapable of being morally good or bad. They operate solely on instinct. The fact that humans have the ability to discern good and evil makes us capable of good and evil- far more often evil.
Second, I don't believe that belief in God makes a man better. But it should make him better. If a man really experiences a relationship with God, shouldn't he be changed by it? That is why I am forced to conclude that many who claim to believe in God do so in either a nonexistent way (i.e., they don't really believe) or in a dry, intellectualized way (they don't have a relationship with Him- of course, there is nothing wrong with intellect, but there must be some emotion involved).

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Originally Posted by blazeofglory

We are indeed superior just because we are armed with weapons can can kill human beings in wars and battles? We are superior just because we can destroy nature and degrade ecological conditions?

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I think most people believe that humans are superior to animals simply because we have the capacity for higher though and logical reasoning. We have complex and intricate communications and have built a society that spreads across the world like no other animal has. We are certainly not superior because we destroy our planet, but we are thought to be superior because we have the (unfortunately demonstrated) ability to do so.

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Originally Posted by blazeofglory

Does our God protect us from being cruel and ruthless? Does man's belief in heaven and hell make us kinder and more generous to other living beings?

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The first question answers itself. Of course God doesn't protect us from being cruel and ruthless, war is the product of that. Heaven and Hell, I think, have very little to do with the way people treat each other nowadays. Compassion, I find, comes from one's philosophy of life rather than the traditional beliefs of "be good and go to heaven".

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Originally Posted by blazeofglory

Of course there is brutality in nature and animals are set against one another and kill. Are we morally better or ethically better than animal beings?

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No. We are manipulated by an authoritarian attitude in society that breeds blind obedience, thus we believe that our brutality is justified. Wild animals kill with little or no regard for their victim, though humans have a capacity for compassion, just because we have that capacity doesn't mean that when we kill somebody it is justifiable. Animals kill for food, we kill for God, country and oil. Does that seem justifiable?

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Originally Posted by M Turner

I think most people believe that humans are superior to animals simply because we have the capacity for higher though and logical reasoning. We have complex and intricate communications and have built a society that spreads across the world like no other animal has. We are certainly not superior because we destroy our planet, but we are thought to be superior because we have the (unfortunately demonstrated) ability to do so.

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Does this truly make us superior, or superior in our eyes. Are animals capable of killing other animals by the millions. The myth of superiority is a learned thought. That which can be learned can be unlearned.

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Originally Posted by M Turner

No. We are manipulated by an authoritarian attitude in society that breeds blind obedience, thus we believe that our brutality is justified. Wild animals kill with little or no regard for their victim, though humans have a capacity for compassion, just because we have that capacity doesn't mean that when we kill somebody it is justifiable. Animals kill for food, we kill for God, country and oil. Does that seem justifiable?

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I guess I don't accept the "authoritarian attitude" and "blind obedience" comment. Brutality is never justified. We are not lead by others, we all have free will. Many people deny this, and that is truly sad.

I come from a belief system that believes in trying to live in harmony with nature and animals, and not trying to control nature or her inhabitants. I have always believed in the intelligence of animals, even if they may have different ways of thinking and viewing the world then humans do, I do not think that makes them stupid or inferior.

I do not believe that humans are superior to animals just because humans are different from animals. I think in fact all too often humans tend to forget that they themselves are just animals. Being a believer in evolution, we are nothing more then apes.

I also think that people tend to use the whole idea of communication as a proof of the inferiority of animals, but I think this is misguided, just because animals do not speak in human speech, or in a way that humans can understand does not mean animals lack communication skills. In fact animals often have very complex communication abilities humans just lack understanding of animal communication.

In fact just about anyone who has ever owned a dog has had those moments when they could almost swear their dog knew just what they were thinking. This is because humans are creatures of habit, and their body language can give away just what they are thinking or planning to do, without even realizing it. Even the slightest twitch of a muscle, arch of an eyebrow, particular smile is associated with a certain action and dogs can actually memorize over 100 different facial expressions.

In fact humans over the years have learned a great detail from watching and observing animals, it was through the study of birds that people first got the idea to try and master the skies themselves. If man never saw a bird fly, do you think he would on his own get the idea to try, or even think it would be possible?

Many people may argue that what animals do is only out of instinct and not intelligence, but in the end, is there a real difference between the two? What good would it do man to have knowledge that did not teach him how to survive?

And I think there have been many different studies and stories have prove animals have displayed an intelligence beyond just pure instinct.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

I have always believed in the intelligence of animals, even if they may have different ways of thinking and viewing the world then humans do, I do not think that makes them stupid or inferior.

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Indeed, animals are intelligent but not in the way humans are. Animals are inferior but that does not justify cruelty towards them (and eating them =/= cruelty). Animals do not have cognitive thinking abilities or logical thought processes like humans. Whether or not you think that makes them inferior does not make it so.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

I do not believe that humans are superior to animals just because humans are different from animals. I think in fact all too often humans tend to forget that they themselves are just animals. Being a believer in evolution, we are nothing more then apes.

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Technically, even by evolutionary standards, we are more than apes.

Ouch, evolution. A few holes there that can't be filled. Remember: Morphological similarities do not equal common descent.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

In fact just about anyone who has ever owned a dog has had those moments when they could almost swear their dog knew just what they were thinking.

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This argument for animal intelligence is faulty; apeal to emotion. And rather vague.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

This is because humans are creatures of habit, and their body language can give away just what they are thinking or planning to do, without even realizing it. Even the slightest twitch of a muscle, arch of an eyebrow, particular smile is associated with a certain action and dogs can actually memorize over 100 different facial expressions.

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"What they are thinking"? Are you not human? Ahh, a typing animal! It is true!

The ability to memorize =/= intelligence.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

In fact humans over the years have learned a great detail from watching and observing animals, it was through the study of birds that people first got the idea to try and master the skies themselves. If man never saw a bird fly, do you think he would on his own get the idea to try, or even think it would be possible?

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Because we got an idea from animals doesn't mean that they are equal or superior to us (and if that's not the argument you were trying to make, lemme know what was).

Oh, and thanks birdies for the idea of flight! I know you read this when we're not watching, being all secretly intelligent and all. ;)

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

Many people may argue that what animals do is only out of instinct and not intelligence, but in the end, is there a real difference between the two? What good would it do man to have knowledge that did not teach him how to survive?

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Yes, there is a difference. Instict is not learned and usually unconsciously utilized while intelligence is the opposite. Both are rather useful.

And non-survival wise knowledge is useful for discussion. Are you saying that anything that doesn't deal with surviving doesn't merit learning?

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

And I think there have been many different studies and stories have prove animals have displayed an intelligence beyond just pure instinct.

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Such as...

oh the zealots come out and play.

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Originally Posted by hew2702

Animals do not have cognitive thinking abilities or logical thought processes like humans. Whether or not you think that makes them inferior does not make it so

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I am going to have to disagree with you there. There have been several examples of animals using some reasoniong skills. There are birds, though I cannot remeber the breed off the top of my head now, that have been documented, using sticks as a tool to dig out grubs from trees, that they cannot reach with thier own beaks.

Differnet types of monkey's have also been seen using very simple tools.

There have been studies done with octopi, in which a pickle jar, I think it was, with the lid screwed on had been dropped into a tank with an octopus, and the octopus, eventually figured out how to unscrew the jar.

African Gray Parrots can figure out how to do simple puzzles made for young childern. Like being able to figure out how to put a circle shape into a circular hole, and a square shape into a square hole and so on.

Or mice that can find thier way out of mazes.

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Originally Posted by hew2702

Technically, even by evolutionary standards, we are more than apes.

Ouch, evolution. A few holes there that can't be filled. Remember: Morphological similarities do not equal common descent.

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That may be true, but the point is, unless you think that humans are some alien speicis, then when it comes down do it, we are still just mamals.

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Originally Posted by hew2702

Because we got an idea from animals doesn't mean that they are equal or superior to us (and if that's not the argument you were trying to make, lemme know what was).

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The point of this argument was just to say that human beings have and can learn from animals, that animals do have something to each us, and much of what we have learned today we do owe to the animals from the animals. I wonder how much would human's have figured out on thier own, if they did not have an example to give them the idea?

I think that the fact that we have learned form animals and in a lot of ways it is becasue of them that society has advanced the way it did becasue of animals do make them our equals, even if the bird for example is not intelligence per sae just becasue it has given the gift of flight.

I think of it this way, if it were not for animals human beings would never have surived, human beings rely upon animals for thier surivial, and yet animals would more likely prosper more then suffer without human beings.


Yes, there is a difference. Instict is not learned and usually unconsciously utilized while intelligence is the opposite. Both are rather useful.

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Originally Posted by hew2702

And non-survival wise knowledge is useful for discussion. Are you saying that anything that doesn't deal with surviving doesn't merit learning?...

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I was not saying that ezactly, but, I look at it like this. Say one was to take a human being, and a wolf for example, and put them in the middle of the desert. And the human knew how to read and write, and spoke several different lanaugues, was good at mathamatics, and always wone triva games, but was unable to figure out how to find food and adapt to the knew enviroment and ultimately died.

While the wolf on the other end was able to figure out how to feed itself, and how to find water, and though did not have any of the knowlege the human had, continued to live and surrive.

In that situation could you truly say the human was surperior to the animal?

As to the last bit, well other then the examples I have in my first post, above, there have been countless stuides done on chimpanzees, teaching them sign langauge succesfully. There have also been many studies on dolphins judging thier intelligence. There have been expirments done that prove they can recogonize thier own reflection in a mirror for example.

And I have read countless stories about some amazing things animals do.

One of my faveorites that I can recall off the top of my head. I read this book about this pack of wolves that the author of the book had stuided and observed, and one of the accounts he gave in his book was about this hunter whom was getting too close to the den so the alpha male would move into the hunters vision to get his attention and started to weave in and out of the trees, every now and then reappearing to make sure the hunter could see him and followed, but at the same time staying out of the way of harm and danger by dissapearing from sight again, and once the hunter was far enough from the den, the wolf just slipped back into the trees and doubled back to the den.

It has also been documented that Hippos acutally give a vigil of silence to dead animals. It is a behavhior that has been caught on flim, in which when an animals has died, a group of hippos will come and and just gather around the animal and just sit there in silence for several miniutes, and then get up and walk away.

Superiority to the animals...we have souls and it is said that they do not. I do not question this, but I say this. Jesus said the road to heaven was to love God and love thy neighbor, defined as anyone who needs you. Do not animals love? Have not they given their lives to save humans they love? Greater love hath no man...I've got a feeling there'll be animals in heaven, and call me crazy. But they are innocents and have love and they will just be tossed? I can't see it. It's what we are supposed to become, innocent children full of love.

God Bless

Pendragon

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Originally Posted by Pendragon

Do not animals love? Have not they given their lives to save humans they love? Greater love hath no man...I've got a feeling there'll be animals in heaven, and call me crazy. But they are innocents and have love and they will just be tossed? I can't see it. It's what we are supposed to become, innocent children full of love.

God Bless

Pendragon

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Hi Dale,

You are a classy Christian--a rarity. Well said. As an agnostic, I'm uncertain of a heaven. However, I am certain that if one exists, and my animals are not there, then I want no part of it. Nothing, save perhaps my wife, has given me so much pleasure and happiness as the animals I've been friends with over the years. A life without animals would be a life with fewer colors. And their existance is one of the few things that keeps me up here on the fence instead of joining my atheist friends. Thanks Again!

Doug

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Originally Posted by Pendragon

Superiority to the animals...we have souls and it is said that they do not. I do not question this, but I say this. Jesus said the road to heaven was to love God and love thy neighbor, defined as anyone who needs you. Do not animals love? Have not they given their lives to save humans they love? Greater love hath no man...I've got a feeling there'll be animals in heaven, and call me crazy. But they are innocents and have love and they will just be tossed? I can't see it. It's what we are supposed to become, innocent children full of love.

God Bless

Pendragon

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Well said, though I do come from a tradition that has always beleived that animals, and all living things do in fact have souls.

Thanks Pen, I was going to get to that sooner or later. I don't know if we can say for sure whether or not there will be our pets and animals in heaven but I doubt that God wouldn't have some of his beautiful creations in His own domain.

The term "superior" is very broad. To actually determine our superiority/inferiority/equality to animals we must be specific about what aspect concerning them we are comparing. We are, indisputably, superior in our cognitive and thinking abilities. However, dogs are superior in their smelling abilities. I am guilty of using this term flippantly.

Oh yeah, and animals don't have souls. That's what separates us from them. We are made in the image of God.

the problem here is that as soon as we start talking about animals admitted in hell and heaven,about differences between animals and men,souls in animals etc we accept the existence of God and apply His set of values. If we accept that hell and heaven exist we might as well take our pets with us.Why not.I can see some potential problems.Would animals be exent from the distinction between good and bad? Would they need to understand? Would they have to fulfill different requirements from us. Does anyone know if Moses was given tables we do not know about,for animals?
Surely there should be a set of requirements somewhere. I refuse to believe that animals are all good.I would like to meet my dog in heaven I must say,but I am not so sure about my neighbours one.It is so fierce all the time
and I cannot walk down the lane when it is loose.I was hoping if heaven is there for it to be a relaxing place.

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Originally Posted by blazeofglory

Are we superior to animal beings?

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In many ways we are and many ways we are not. But either way we are one exceptional species on this planet. There is nothing like us.

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We are indeed superior just because we are armed with weapons can can kill human beings in wars and battles? We are superior just because we can destroy nature and degrade ecological conditions?

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We superior in the sense that we can conceive of things that do not exist.

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Does our God protect us from being cruel and ruthless?

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No. Cruel and ruthlessness is a choice you make.

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Does man's belief in heaven and hell make us kinder and more generous to other living beings?

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No. Not necessarily. But it gives us ideals to aspire, dreams to dream.

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Are we morally better or ethically better than animal beings?

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In many ways yes. And in many ways no.

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Does our idea of God help us overcomie our brutalities?

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Yes it can. It can also reinforce it. It is when you abandon both then see things are they are.

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These questions always intrigue me.

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As to billions of others. You are not alone.

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I am indeed not a disbeliever either. I read the Gita, the Veda, the Bible, the Koran.

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Read them, use them but see them for what they are.

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Originally Posted by rosa

. . . I was hoping if heaven is there for it to be a relaxing place.

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Hi Rosa,

Yeah, it better be if we're gonna be there for infinity. The first hundred trillion years might wear on me if I'm all agitated. I must say, it would be nice to have a thread where folks could describe exactly what they think heaven will be like, in specifics--animals, trees, friends from earth, activities etc. I've always wondered if we will remember our time on this planet. It seems like our 80 years here would be so hard to recall after a million years, hehe, I barely remember what happend yesterday. Sorry for rambling, but this kind of stuff is so interesting to think about.

Peace,
Doug