Could 1984 actually become a reality?

A straight answer. NO! For example look at the world we live in today. We can't control a majority of crime, we have rapists, murderers, terrorists, more people than when Orwell wrote the book and not to mention individualism, which has become something that no one could ever control even if they tried. The government would be destroyed within the minute word was let lose such a thing was going to take place. Look at places like Papua New Guenia and The Phillipines for example. Can they control their countries? I think not. Plus remember this book was writen before the likes of Ted Bundy, Charles Starkweather, Henry Lee Lucas and Jeffrey Dahmer were around which just goes to show individualism is something that cannot be supressed.
Look at what just happened in Finland and let's not forget the Chess Board Killer. The governments will never be able to fully control society. It's hate which is most dangerous power of all.

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Originally Posted by TheFoxxx

A straight answer. NO! For example look at the world we live in today. We can't control a majority of crime, we have rapists, murderers, terrorists, more people than when Orwell wrote the book and not to mention individualism, which has become something that no one could ever control even if they tried. The government would be destroyed within the minute word was let lose such a thing was going to take place. Look at places like Papua New Guenia and The Phillipines for example. Can they control their countries? I think not. Plus remember this book was writen before the likes of Ted Bundy, Charles Starkweather, Henry Lee Lucas and Jeffrey Dahmer were around which just goes to show individualism is something that cannot be supressed.

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You need a good dose of history, my Aussie friend.

Ted Bundy pales into boredom against the likes of Jack the Ripper, plus don't forget that Orwell lived at the time of the worst atrocity ever - the Holocaust.

I'm not suggesting it could happen, but you're only viewing a small part of the picture. Human gullibility is such that almost anything is possible. Have a look at how many people truly believe something really, really absurd - the "Moon Hoax" is a classic example; some people genuinely believe the moon landings were a hoax. To believe that requires a monumental amount of self-delusion. If someone could harness that self-delusion, they could rule the world, easily.

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Originally Posted by TheFoxxx

Look at what just happened in Finland and let's not forget the Chess Board Killer. The governments will never be able to fully control society. It's hate which is most dangerous power of all.

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Funnily enough, the most dangerous human emotion to date has been love. It was the population's love of their country which allowed Hitler and the Nazis to commit their atrocities, even though they played on hate, it was the extreme nationalism - a perversion of love - which allowed the hate to have full rein.

There is one significant difference between 1949 and today.

The advent of global economy.

In my opinion, a Totalitarian state is more likely to emerge from the corporate world now, rather than political. Which would be just as tragic as 1984's government, but alot funnier. ;)

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Originally Posted by KurtDunn

There is one significant difference between 1949 and today.

The advent of global economy.

In my opinion, a Totalitarian state is more likely to emerge from the corporate world now, rather than political. Which would be just as tragic as 1984's government, but alot funnier. ;)

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Absolutely spot on.

Hi The Atheist. Nice to meet you. You wrote

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Ted Bundy pales into boredom against the likes of Jack the Ripper, plus don't forget that Orwell lived at the time of the worst atrocity ever - the Holocaust.

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You're right Ted did fall into boredom compared to Jack The Ripper but definitely not compared to others like Henry Lee Luas, H.H. Holmes, Jeffrey Dahmer, The Zepo killer (who is rumored to of killed over 1200 people all by himself!) John Wayne Gacy, Albert Fish, Ed Gein etc, but having relations with dead bodies is quite sick.

But getting back to my main point, today's society is full of people who are much darker than when Orwell wrote the novel. Even Hitler can't possible compare to some of the twisted people around today. Sure he wanted to kill people but did he eat them, rape them, cut them apart, dress up in their skin, take pleasure at keeping them alive as long as he could whilst ripping their lungs out our cutting out their tongue and making them swallow it. No.

Here is a quote from Carl Panzram

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"I have no desire whatever to reform myself. My only desire is to reform people who try to reform me, and i believe the only way to reform people is to kill 'em. My motto is: Rob 'em all, rape 'em all, and kill 'em all"

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Okay there is quite a bit more out there which are far more twisted than this but i chose not to put them on this forum as a moderator on two other forums i'm sure you guys have the simular rules.

I believe that people with these twisted minds could not be controlled by any thought Police. No disrespect to Orwell but i think Winston was too femanine. What if we were to say Winston was replaced with a character who thought along the same lines as Patrick Bateman (which i must say for anyone out there who has not heard of this character, he is one of Bret Easton Ellis's master creations in the book American Psycho which contains one of the most important messages inside it and if you haven't already read the book go check it out it, if you only judge it by its misunderstood reputation you will miss out on enjoying a brilliant book.) The novel would move in a totally different direction.

I'm sorry, but I never heard of Jeffrey Dahmer or Zepo killer. On the other hand, I did hear about Hitler. Zepo might have killed 1200 people, that is still unimportant number when compared with number of victims of Hitler's twisted philosophy. Zepo couln't become "Big Brother". Hitler would, if he won the war. Stalin did.

It is quite some time that I've read 1984, but if I remember correctly, there are three groups of people in society - inner circle, outer circle and proles. And if I remember correctly, Proles (and most of the people living in Oceania are Proles) were not controlled by Thought Police that much. I think that the Party even had some saying that Proles and animals are free. Proles are less intimidated, and there are also criminals among them.

But does that mean that Proles are really free, that they are not controlled by the state? Uneducated, poor, unable to change their situation at all? Do you think that if some Zape killer occured, would that make Proles more free? How?

And do you really think that Thought Police would be interested in serial killers? Gestapo wasn't hunting murderers either. Thought crime is considered much worse than a murder. I think some character explained it - thought crime does not cause death, it is death. A teacher who would want to educate Proles, to change their situation, would be much greater danger. Why? Because while Proles were poor and uneducated, they were content with cheap beer and porns, and they didn't want to start rebellion. So in fact, Proles are also controled, but by different means that inner party.

And as for individualism - did it save Winston? Or Julia? No. In the end, the fact that Winston cared only about his individual life and safety caused his betraying Julia. And only when he betrayed Julia, he was considered "cured", only then he became truly brainwashed.

So, shortly - yes, I think 1984 could become reality. It is more than possible - and some countires were not far from it. And it's not the matter of the past, either, even now - but I can't and don't want to talk about politics.

I am currently reading 1984 and i believe that indeed Orwell based the book on real facts around him ;) So why can't 1984 become -partly- real?? Certain aspects of the book are real and were real in the past. I'll mention only one example since other users have already said enough. Take a close look to the Young people's Union (sorry for the inconsistency of the term but i am reading a greek translation ;) ). Doesn't it remind you of Hitler's, Mussolini's (and Metaxa's for those acquainted with modern greek history) Unions for young people? I only recall how Metaxa's union was called (EON) but i am sure someone (Baz..?) can recall how the rest were called ;) . All these brainwashing of young people from a very young and tender age, the parades, the flags, the mottos, the songs ;) ..

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Originally Posted by Aiculík

Zepo couln't become "Big Brother". Hitler would, if he won the war. Stalin did.

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I doubt. Hitler and Mussolini were turned on creating great empires and were not afraid and concerned of imaginary enemies in their own state. They could do that because they had very good economic situation and people had job, which was a great improvement after 1929. OK, they did produce weapons but they weren't hungry. Therefore, they were pleased and had no reason to argue against Duce or Fuhrer.
Hitler and Mussolini were taking care for their men's, which wasn't a situation in USSR.

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Originally Posted by manolia

Take a close look to the Young people's Union (sorry for the inconsistency of the term but i am reading a greek translation ;) ). Doesn't it remind you of Hitler's, Mussolini's (and Metaxa's for those acquainted with modern greek history) Unions for young people? I only recall how Metaxa's union was called (EON) but i am sure someone (Baz..?) can recall how the rest were called ;) . All these brainwashing of young people from a very young and tender age, the parades, the flags, the mottos, the songs ;) ..

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Hitler Jugend ( Benedikt XVI was also a member ); and Balilla and Avanguardista in Italy. :)
Same things were happening and are still happening in communist state's also. I am lazy so I'll use Wiki:

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A pioneer movement is an organization for children operated by a communist party. Typically children enter into the organization in elementary school and continue until adolescence. The adolescents then typically joined Komsomol or a similar organization. Prior to the 1990s there was a wide cooperation between pioneer and similar movements of about 30 countries, coordinated by the international organization, International Committee of Children's and Adolescents' Movements (French: Comité international des mouvements d'enfants et d'adolescents, CIMEA), founded in 1958, with headquarters in Budapest.

In most socialist countries, membership of the pioneer movement is officially optional. Many features of the pioneer movement made it essentially different from Scout movement, particularly as the Scout movement is independent of government control and political parties. For example, there were no separate organizations for boys and girls. During the existence of the USSR, thousands of Young Pioneer camps and Young Pioneer Palaces were built exclusively for Young Pioneers, which were free of charge, sponsored by the government and Trade Unions. There were a lot of newspapers and magazines published for Young Pioneers in millions of copies. Some features, however, are reminiscent of the Scout movement. The two movements share some principles like preparedness and promotion of sports and outdoor skills. The pioneer movement also includes teaching of communist principles. Opponents of Communist states claim that this is a form of indoctrination.

A member of the movement is known as a pioneer, and a scarf--typically red, but sometimes light blue--is the traditional item of clothing worn by a pioneer. The pioneer organization is often named after a famous party member that is considered a suitable role model for young communists. In the USSR it was Lenin; in East Germany, it was Ernst Thälmann. The Thälmann pioneers were taught the slogan "We are Ernst Thälmann pioneers. We wear our red scarf with pride." It is notable, that Albania, which had severed diplomatic relations with the USSR since 1961, also had a certain variant of Pioneer organization, called Pioneers of Enver, named after the communist ruler of Albania, Enver Hoxha.

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And, in my opinion, no matter of Stalin's Russia or China or North Korea or etc; Party could never rule in a way Orwell imagine it.

In 1984 there were only 3 states. No way could that ever become a reality. Saddam Hussen did turn Iraq into a similar world but look what happened to him in the end. 1984 is too fictional to ever become a reality in the modern world. Like come on we all know one day the governments will overthrown by criminals and we will all be living in a world with no leaders:lol: and i wouldn't call Winston and Julia individuals in the modern sense, maybe in the past but not in the present definition. By the way, Hitler was not sick and twisted in the same way that someone like Henry Lee Lucas, Zeppo etc were, he was more concerned with using people for his own ideal world. If someone like HLL had such power it would have been a case of world annihilation. Hitler was not a Misanthropist.

Aiculik wrote

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And do you really think that Thought Police would be interested in serial killers?

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If serial killers were killing each and every member of the inner party off one by one i think they would have been for sure. Maybe even scared of who was next.

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Originally Posted by bazarov

Hitler Jugend ( Benedikt XVI was also a member ); and Balilla and Avanguardista in Italy. :)
Same things were happening and are still happening in communist state's also. I am lazy so I'll use Wiki:.

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Baz i could use you for my encyclopedia ;) :) I bet you are one of those people who remember everything they read ;)

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Originally Posted by bazarov

And, in my opinion, no matter of Stalin's Russia or China or North Korea or etc; Party could never rule in a way Orwell imagine it.

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You are right. But reading this book i find similarities between the book and what happened in my country during the last dictatorship ;) It is painful you know, although i was unborn then ;)

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Originally Posted by manolia

Baz i could use you for my encyclopedia ;) :) I bet you are one of those people who remember everything they read ;)

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To be honest, I am sometimes surprised with facts I remember; not even sure from where do I know them :D

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You are right. But reading this book i find similarities between the book and what happened in my country during the last dictatorship ;) It is painful you know, although i was unborn then ;)

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Tell me about it, I am from former Yugoslavia. Luckily, I didn't have to be Tito's pioneer. Otherwise, I would have to learn and sing this stupid poem

Today, as I become a Pioneer,
I give my Pioneer's word of honour -
That I will study and work tirelessly,
respect parents and my seniors,
and be a loyal and honest friend [or "comrade"].
That I will love our independent homeland SFRY.
That I will spread brotherhood and unity
and the principles for which comrade Tito fought.
And that I will value all peoples of the world who respect freedom and peace!

:lol: :lol:

SFRY means Socialistic Federative Republic Yugoslavia

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Originally Posted by bazarov

I doubt. Hitler and Mussolini were turned on creating great empires and were not afraid and concerned of imaginary enemies in their own state. They could do that because they had very good economic situation and people had job, which was a great improvement after 1929. OK, they did produce weapons but they weren't hungry. Therefore, they were pleased and had no reason to argue against Duce or Fuhrer.
Hitler and Mussolini were taking care for their men's, which wasn't a situation in USSR.

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Yes, they weren't concerned about imaginary enemies in their own state - because they were in war with real enemies. Once they would win the war, I'm pretty sure there would be some imaginery enemy. Because these imaginery enemies are very effective ways of manipulation. Peoole that are afraid of some terrible enemy can be brainwashed easily. For example, did you know that in 1950's, terrible American capitalists send huge flocks of potato beetle to destroy the crop in my country? Yeah. And the government called people to fight against this barbaric attack. I bet none of the people from USA here did not know about this terroristic part of their history. :lol: :lol: :lol:

And you are also right that they cared for their people. But that's just it, they cared for their people. Do you really think Hitler would care about well-being of, for example, Slavic people which he considered a lower race, born to be slaves? I think Proles in 1984 had a rich and happy life compared to the poverty and suffering of milions if Hitler won the war.

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Originally Posted by Aiculík

Yes, they weren't concerned about imaginary enemies in their own state - because they were in war with real enemies. Once they would win the war, I'm pretty sure there would be some imaginery enemy. Because these imaginery enemies are very effective ways of manipulation.

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WWII started on September 1st 1939. Hitler became Kanzler (something like Prime minister) in 1933 and Mussolini in 1925 so they didn't have any enemies for quite a long time.

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Originally Posted by Aiculík

And you are also right that they cared for their people. But that's just it, they cared for their people. Do you really think Hitler would care about well-being of, for example, Slavic people which he considered a lower race, born to be slaves? I think Proles in 1984 had a rich and happy life compared to the poverty and suffering of milions if Hitler won the war.

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When I said their people; I meant on Germans and Italians, I didn't meant on Slavs, Jews, Afroamericans, etc.
Proles were suffering by their own government and that wasn't situation on Itali and Germany.

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Originally Posted by bazarov

To be honest, I am sometimes surprised with facts I remember; not even sure from where do I know them :D

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And i have the memory capacity of a goldfish :lol: If you want something to be easily and quickly forgotten just say it to me :lol:

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Originally Posted by bazarov

Tell me about it, I am from former Yugoslavia. Luckily, I didn't have to be Tito's pioneer. Otherwise, I would have to learn and sing this stupid poem

Today, as I become a Pioneer,
I give my Pioneer's word of honour -
That I will study and work tirelessly,
respect parents and my seniors,
and be a loyal and honest friend [or "comrade"].
That I will love our independent homeland SFRY.
That I will spread brotherhood and unity
and the principles for which comrade Tito fought.
And that I will value all peoples of the world who respect freedom and peace!

:lol: :lol:

SFRY means Socialistic Federative Republic Yugoslavia

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Geeeezz..that was horrible. Yep, i have read about Tito, so i know what you are talking about. Unfortunately the Balkans (and the nearby areas) have veeeeeery troubled history :(

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Originally Posted by manolia

Geeeezz..that was horrible. Yep, i have read about Tito, so i know what you are talking about. Unfortunately the Balkans (and the nearby areas) have veeeeeery troubled history :(

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Too many cultures and religions on small area, I guess.