Cesario and Orsino?

Hi
Just wandering what people think of the whole Cesario / Orsino relationship. It's clear in the play that Orsino values Cesario very highly, but does anyone reckon Orsino was starting to fall in love with Cesario before he knew he was actually viola - a woman?

I reckon Orsino did start to fall in love with Cesario before, but was in denial about it all (what with him thinking Cesario is a boy) and was using his so called love of Olivia as a defense mechanism.

I reckon when Orsino found out Cesario was actually a woman he didn't suddenly just switch from Olivia to Viola, but instead was finally able to admit his romantic love for Cesario/Viola.

What do people think?

Hi silverduck2day,
You might be right, I personally don't agree, but its definitely an idea i haven't heard before, if you were playing the role it would definitely be a good twist or character builder. And a good angle for an essay or paper.
I had the same question with Antonio and Sebastian. I thought, from some of the lines, that Antonio was gay. But after studying shakespeare and European history for a while I came to learn how effeminate a lot of the men were back then, they wern't all " I'm gonna go chop wood with my teeth" they kiss each others cheeks when saying hello or goodbye, some even held hands back then and now. So I think Orsino might have admired Cesario, I believe, and this doesn't mean its true, that Orisno wasn't in love, just esteemed Cesario.

I disagree. I just finished reading this play for the first time...starting in on a very old discussion! But o-well. When I was reading it, I didn't think it came across that way at all. I thought that Orsino was just foolishly in love, the type when people are just in love with the idea of being in love, rather than the person they are directing this love at. Then towards the end when Orsino came to understand Cesario was female, all of the little comments Viola had been making (secretly really about her love for Orsino) clicked, and he put it all together and realized the love she had for him. Not sure though that he REALLY was in love with Viola, or that the idea of being in love with her (giving him love) was actually better than Olivia, who was pretty much refusing to love him back the entire play. Anyways....my first thoughts, so maybe the second time around I may change my mind!

Orsino: "I am in love with love"
That should just about say it.
I found it slightly more hilarious in the play that Olivia was in love with Cesario, then just happily accepted the fact that she married Sebastian, a man she did not know. Let's face it, Ilyeria is just one crazy place, and maybe the Duke was just eager for a wife. Hm, but that is an interesting point, that the Duke was in denial about Cesario, just as he was in denial about Olivia rejecting him.
Lots of interesting points, I'll have to ponder them...

Twelfth Night is the best play ever written (my personal view) but there are several indications in it that Shakespeare had some difficulty in directing the action.
Examples: Sir Toby recognizes Maria's love for him at a very early stage in the play and she reciprocates by giving him friendly advice throughout. At the end of the play, however, these major characters are quickly dismissed by being married off stage (with only a fleeting reference from Fabian).
Also, Malvolio is irrelevantly accused without prior warning of having brought some action against the captain.

Given that the Shakespeare industry has discussed his works for 400 years now, it is not surprising that pseudo scholars seek to broaden the topic by reference to the apparent homoerotic tones, particularly in the Sonnets, they now perceive to have discovered; but I have not encountered it in Twelfth Night before.

There are far more plentiful references to heterosexual love throughout his works and in his own life as a family man, however neglectful, not to mention an embarrassing level of bawdiness. Furthermore, the object of all his comedies and some tragedies was to unite the lovers.

There are also numerous references to familial love throughout his works and, in particular, to the brother/ sister closeness of Twelfth Night. In any case, Shakespeare is attempting yet another of the "missing twin" comedies that he had already successfully explored before; and, given the great humanity of this play, audiences are prepared to suspend their disbelief in the implausibility of the action even if the actors are made to believe it.

Attitudes to friendship were much more demonstrative then than post Georgian rectitude now allows. My view is that Shakespeare was merely writing for his audience: sometimes he alluded to male closeness but he overwhelmingly preferred the good taste of his wider public; and we do him and his works a disservice in thinking ill of him.

Further thoughts on Toby/Maria:

The play ends with the prospective marriage of Orsino and Viola but there are two other marriages during the play: not only Olivia and Sebastian but also the easily disregarded Sir Toby and Maria.

It is a pity to overlook the marriage of Toby and Maria because it is a culmination of the action for two principal characters. Pointing their relationship can add much to the humanity of the play.

Sir Toby
Not a bad man; merely boorish and fun loving; not averse to pumping Sir Andrew for 2 thousand (presumably ducats) whilst urging him to a hopeless marriage proposal. Fond of his drink, always seeking company, happy to play a prank on the prude, Malvolio, who, after all, has spoilt his fun.

Maria
As Olivia 's gentle woman (ie maid) occupies a position of high status servant.
Loyal to Olivia and politely friendly towards Cesario. Shows concern at Olivia's troubled state after his visits.

Loves Sir Toby and relates closely with him throughout the play
Sir Toby is Viola's uncle and therefore socially above Malvolio by virtue of title and relationship. Maria sees Toby as a social superior who could lift her from a maid's life to that of a lady, however precarious, and, in any case, is enchanted by his rough but affectionate manner. She probably feels she could improve him.
She achieves (presumably) happiness when she marries Sir Toby at the end of the play.

Relationship indicators:
Act 1 Scene 2
Sir Toby enters swinging Maria on his arm. Both joyful. (my interpolation)
Act 2 Scene 3
Sir Toby: … she loves me….
Act 2 Scene 3
Sir Toby: I could marry this wench…

Toby's delight at the success of Maria's trick.

Maria and Sir Toby, already drawn together, form a bond (with the foolish Sir Andrew and the jester, Feste) against Malvolio in order to repay him for his slights on their boorish, but enjoyable, activities.
Maria thereby shows her devotion to Sir Toby, much to his delight and cementing their relationship, by concocting a forged letter deceit.
Both Toby and Maria have pangs of conscience, however, when Malvolio is tricked into the madhouse.

It is admittedly difficult to convey Sir Toby's and Maria's marriage when Fabian makes only a passing reference to it. Given the recent fight sequence at the time, the scene could be inserted in dumb show in Act IV Scene II as follows:

Toby and Maria exit fondly arm in arm as Toby speaks (to her) "I would we were…" with a resigned recognition from both that their escapade signals the necessity for Toby's imminent departure.
After "Come by and by to my chamber" the marriage could be signalled by their encountering the Priest and the three leave together. This would necessitate the entry of the Priest at that point but it would be only a slight liberty (and he could be used to heighten the comedy as he catches sight of the apparent Sir Topas).

Period Setting:
"Modern" dress can work well in this play but, because of the explicit sword actions, probably not later than mid 19th century. Please do not substitute knives. This introduces an ugly topicality that deviates from the comedy and detracts from audience enjoyment.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by silverduck2day

Hi
Just wandering what people think of the whole Cesario / Orsino relationship. It's clear in the play that Orsino values Cesario very highly, but does anyone reckon Orsino was starting to fall in love with Cesario before he knew he was actually viola - a woman?

I reckon Orsino did start to fall in love with Cesario before, but was in denial about it all (what with him thinking Cesario is a boy) and was using his so called love of Olivia as a defense mechanism.

I reckon when Orsino found out Cesario was actually a woman he didn't suddenly just switch from Olivia to Viola, but instead was finally able to admit his romantic love for Cesario/Viola.

What do people think?

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Thats not possible. Orsinio was already courting Olivia before Viola ever got shipwrecked and became Cesario. So his so called love for Olivia predates him meeting Cesario. Remember, the captain is telling Viola about Orsinio trying to win over Olivia before she dresses up as a boy. Its likely that Orsinio started developing feelings for Cesario, which he just assumed was his love for a boy in his service. In other words Orsinio knew he loved Cesario, he just didn't realize it was romantic love. I suppose on some level Orsinio realized Cesario was a woman without knowing it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Albion

Further thoughts on Toby/Maria:

The play ends with the prospective marriage of Orsino and Viola but there are two other marriages during the play: not only Olivia and Sebastian but also the easily disregarded Sir Toby and Maria.

It is a pity to overlook the marriage of Toby and Maria because it is a culmination of the action for two principal characters. Pointing their relationship can add much to the humanity of the play.

Sir Toby
Not a bad man; merely boorish and fun loving; not averse to pumping Sir Andrew for 2 thousand (presumably ducats) whilst urging him to a hopeless marriage proposal. Fond of his drink, always seeking company, happy to play a prank on the prude, Malvolio, who, after all, has spoilt his fun.

Maria
As Olivia 's gentle woman (ie maid) occupies a position of high status servant.
Loyal to Olivia and politely friendly towards Cesario. Shows concern at Olivia's troubled state after his visits.

Loves Sir Toby and relates closely with him throughout the play
Sir Toby is Viola's uncle and therefore socially above Malvolio by virtue of title and relationship. Maria sees Toby as a social superior who could lift her from a maid's life to that of a lady, however precarious, and, in any case, is enchanted by his rough but affectionate manner. She probably feels she could improve him.
She achieves (presumably) happiness when she marries Sir Toby at the end of the play.

Relationship indicators:
Act 1 Scene 2
Sir Toby enters swinging Maria on his arm. Both joyful. (my interpolation)
Act 2 Scene 3
Sir Toby: … she loves me….
Act 2 Scene 3
Sir Toby: I could marry this wench…

Toby's delight at the success of Maria's trick.

Maria and Sir Toby, already drawn together, form a bond (with the foolish Sir Andrew and the jester, Feste) against Malvolio in order to repay him for his slights on their boorish, but enjoyable, activities.
Maria thereby shows her devotion to Sir Toby, much to his delight and cementing their relationship, by concocting a forged letter deceit.
Both Toby and Maria have pangs of conscience, however, when Malvolio is tricked into the madhouse.

It is admittedly difficult to convey Sir Toby's and Maria's marriage when Fabian makes only a passing reference to it. Given the recent fight sequence at the time, the scene could be inserted in dumb show in Act IV Scene II as follows:

Toby and Maria exit fondly arm in arm as Toby speaks (to her) "I would we were…" with a resigned recognition from both that their escapade signals the necessity for Toby's imminent departure.
After "Come by and by to my chamber" the marriage could be signalled by their encountering the Priest and the three leave together. This would necessitate the entry of the Priest at that point but it would be only a slight liberty (and he could be used to heighten the comedy as he catches sight of the apparent Sir Topas).

Period Setting:
"Modern" dress can work well in this play but, because of the explicit sword actions, probably not later than mid 19th century. Please do not substitute knives. This introduces an ugly topicality that deviates from the comedy and detracts from audience enjoyment.

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Toby and Maria are absolutely one of my favorite couples in lit. I think Toby is a very good man. Sure he is a bit of a jerk, but he is honorable. Malvolio gets exactly what he deserves, and although he uses Andrew, he also steps in to fight Antonio to make sure Sir Andrew wouldn't get hurt. Toby is brave, smart, and not a snob. If he really wanted drinking money, he could have married a wealthy woman, he has a title, and it would be easy for him, but he prefers to marry a great girl, even though she is poor, and a servant. Which also shows just how smart he is.