I really love this book but there's still something i don't understand. Siddhartha proves that wisdom is something that can't be taught or communicated, so why does Gotama attempt to teach it?
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I really love this book but there's still something i don't understand. Siddhartha proves that wisdom is something that can't be taught or communicated, so why does Gotama attempt to teach it?
I think he taught mostly through his action and way of living. He didn't just preach.
Gotama continues his journey because like most men he is not "chosen" in a sense. Gotama is unable to grasp the trueth of his own spirtuality, he is not strong enough, he is a follower. Siddartha understands that each man's journey is an individual one
Teachings are like maps. Teachings are not the experience of being in the place & never a substitute for such. However, they indicate what the traveller knows is in the place & how to get there.
Firstly, they are for personal use, especially by frequent travellers who want to update their maps. Secondly, they can be shared with others who seek that place. Third, they can be discarded or disregarded by explorers who want to see things for themselves & draw their own maps if it pleases them.
It's good to generate such choices.
buddha wants other people to attain enlightenment too. he wants there to be peace in people's heart and their lives. i think he was well aware of the fact that wisdom cannot be taught. but he wanted to share this with everyone. his followers were peaceful but they always wanted more - they wanted to attain nirvana.
Maybe a more reliable usage of the verbs 'teach' and 'learn' are overdue. For my part, I would like to see 'teaching' defined not as 'making people learn something' but more as 'inspiring others to learn and giving them indicators of progress to go by'. Perhaps Gotama in the story, and the historical Buddha, did not intend to have a followership and be called 'teacher' in our corrupt sense, but wanted to provide inspiration. And there were those, like Siddhartha in the story, who 'got it' right away and went off to learn, and others, like Govinda, who took longer to 'get it', hanging on to get more inspiration. And then there were the opportunists, who appropriated the inspirational message and packaged it and labeled it and institutionalized it, there coming to be denominations (Theravada and Mahayana, and Vajrayana Mahayana, and Zen, and Pure Land and Amitabha, etc).
I just finished this book and was not all that impressed. I think Oscar Wilde had a better view of getting along in life and does it with humor and insight. I just recently listened to an e-book by Eckhart Tolle which was far more enlightening. I find people who choose to live off of the hard work and industry of other people while they wander around the countryside trying to "find" the meaning of life, irritating. If we all decided to do that we would have a world filled with chaos. The meaning of life comes by living life. It is called experience!
far be it from me to suggest that you may have missed the point of the narrative entirely, because you reiterate a central theme in your conclusion; the meaning of live is in living that life.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverflutist
i will say that i think you could use a different perspective, though.
you don't seem to think that the experiences of someone who 'wanders around the countryside' are valid, or that they add up to form a life proper.
are you saying that the meaning of life comes by living within a societal structure established by others? siddhartha lives within several different doctrines and societal structures over the course of the novel, and is never finds satisfaction in them; in the 'wandering' and 'living off others' parts, probably least of all. remember that by the end of the novel, siddhartha is self-sufficient (or co-operative, at least).
in the context of higher meaning, what have the people who siddhartha 'lived off of' accomplished by the end of the novel that he had not?
what i think hesse was trying to get across is that the structures we all live in are nothing more than teachings and ideas of others. we should not depend on them to provide us with satisfaction or we will be dissapointed.
in all honesty, are we not all 'living off of the hard work and industry' of our forefathers? they have established all the facets of the society we are born into; systems of government, religions, philosophies, scientific knowledge; and we accept it like siddhartha accepted alms from his benefactors.
Wow. How very strange! I am just commenting here to bring this up- No less than 7(!) people with 2 or 1 posts commented on this thread! Those and sub! :)
Exactly: the dharma is like a finger pointing at the moon. It isn't equivalent to enlightenment, but it points the way to it, like a board you can jump off of. Furthermore, the dharma is just one of the Three Jewels; which are the Buddha, the Dharma, and the Sangha.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joffre Balce
Gotama's presence in the novel is used by Hesse to show a stepping stone in Siddhartha's journey to spiritual enlightenment. The fact that Gotama could not teach Siddhartha his wisdom shows that there is not one set path for someone to follow, that each individual has to find their own unique path. Since Gotama cannot teach it shows that wisdom is not something that cannot be taught but learned. Gotama is just a character that further illustrates the point of the novel that in order to find personal enlightenement you need to find your own path.
ur right it might lead to chaos, but what herman hesse has done here is totally rule out the fact that each and every single person can live like this. in fact siddhartha is his hypothetical model of all lives in one pack. he talks about experience, though that kind of experience is impossible to achieve.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverflutist
Siddhartha does live the day-to-day life. with the shramanas, kamala, brahmins and the ferryman, and the fact that comes out is that he has more experience in the end than any of them. Therefore he reaches enlightenment (or whatever you may call it).
Well I am glad to see that this book is bringing in more Lit-netters!
Teachers only bring you so far. It is how you use the information that they give you in your experience and as you grow that is important. The point of the novel is that you cannot grow spiritually or gain experience through someone else. At least, that's what I think the main point is. The book covers so many topics that I can't keep track of or remember them all.
Exactly, and Hesse shows through Siddhartha's life the importance of detachment from the world. Even though they are "living off" of other ppl, remember these are the "child people", the people that depend on their teachings, b/c they are not as close to nirvana as the samanas. The things that they get from the child people are just to sustain them, so they can achieve nirvana.Quote:
Originally Posted by blobuck
In real teachings there are no difference between the teacher and the student and dualities submerge into each other and there will be no conflict and no questioners and answerer and both will be immersed into one being.
Then in that teaching gives you the expereince you are seeking for and it gives you a road-map to your destination.