Revels before Lent

hi, everyone :wave:

I've finished a really long short story (23 A4 pages, but don't let that deter you :lol: )
Please give me lots of feedback and tell me what you like/ don't like about it.
(also tell me if I've got any prepositions or tenses wrong, especially progressive tense where it should be simple:))

let me know if it's too "soppy" or or not soppy enough :)
is it too fast paced?
do I need to describe the character's feelings more explicitely or are they more or less clear from their facial expressions/dialogue?

if I may say so myself: I'm proud of this story because all of it is fictive and not based on my life or that of anyone I know.
It's also got a beginning, a middle and an end, which is nice :lol:
Now that it's finished I'm not so sure it's all that great, though.

~THANKS FOR YOUR HELP~

EDIT: I've changed one of the key scenes. this is the new version
latest update (Feb 2007): there's a new ending. hope it's better. it's beginning is marked with a couple of red undscores_________

I'll try to read it over the weekend, Sleepy. I printed it ou, but i won't have until then. I'll have to see what prevented you from reading Antony and Cleopatra. :p

hehe, thanks Virgil :)
I'd say "enjoy" if I didn't think it was a crappy story :)

I will print out the first act of A&C now :)

Good about A&C. We've got a conversation going on the first scene. That's only a ten minute read. You might to jump in. :)

Hi there, Sleepy !

I've just completed reading your story, and I'm very impressed ! It was worth while deferring Antony and Cleopatra, I see :nod:.

Sorry I can't comment that extensively, because therefore I'd have to think about it for a longer time, but for now, off the top of my head:

I liked the opening scene very much, the setting, description of Julia and her gay friend, the lines in italics. Two more passages I liked very much was the arrival of her aunt and the passage about the weather anticipating something wrong.
The story also felt to me a bit like a local-colour one, with all the references to Carnival (I hate it, too, but love Werther's :D ), which made it quite easy for me to picture the setting and atmosphere, as I'm familiar with German Carnival customs. Though I don't know what kind of effect that will have on somebody who doesn't, but you'll surely see :).

**** SPOILER TO COME !!! ****



The story with Bernhard, however, I felt it was a bit rushed. I can't really explain why, but she had hardly arrived at the family's house and he already, although being presented as lifeless and boring, especially by Aunt Imgard, excerts a fascination on her. I missed some kind of reflection by Julia on the upcoming love/affection between them.

All in all, I liked the beginning better than the end.
Another point that struck me as original was the title, fits very well to the setting as well as (as somehow it should :D) to the plot.
Oh, and you'll have to tell me where you got the idea with the Harry Potter polyphone thingy from ! If that really exist, I need it ! :D
In conclusion: I found your story very interesting and worth reading :nod:.

Did you write it for fun, or was it an assignment ?

PS: If you don't mind, I think I found a couple of typos, to which I'd like to point you politely :D:
* ... the guy's hair (page 3)
* ... disbelief. "I ... (page 4)
* ... I'm on my own. (page 9) I'm not sure if that was intended but you'll know ;).
* ... main places of interest (page 19)
* oh, and then there's one more thing where I wasn't quite sure whether it was intended or not, but I noticed some words / expressions were written in red...(I do that, too, in my first draft in order to mark these words that I want to revise/change when going over the story again.) But of course, here it could also have some meaning in the story, which I must have overlooked for now :D.

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Originally Posted by Schokokeks

**** SPOILER TO COME !!! ****



The story with Bernhard, however, I felt it was a bit rushed. I can't really explain why, but she had hardly arrived at the family's house and he already, although being presented as lifeless and boring, especially by Aunt Imgard, excerts a fascination on her. I missed some kind of reflection by Julia on the upcoming love/affection between them.

All in all, I liked the beginning better than the end.
Another point that struck me as original was the title, fits very well to the setting as well as (as somehow it should :D) to the plot.
Oh, and you'll have to tell me where you got the idea with the Harry Potter polyphone thingy from ! If that really exist, I need it ! :D
In conclusion: I found your story very interesting and worth reading :nod:.

Did you write it for fun, or was it an assignment ?

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Hey Schoko, thanks for your feedback! yep, I agree that the Bernhard thing is a bit rushed and that some reflexion on Julia's part would be better, but I wasn't sure how to do it.
I'll think about it and try to find a way that doesn't make it too waffly.
In a way i want it to be a rushed and irrational thing but you are right that it seems a bit too rushed. *lazy witch*
hehe, nope i didn't check if the ring tone exists. there's this choir in one of the HP films were the sing the Shakespeare lines and I thought it was fun because she's a Renaissance scholar and when the phone rings in the story it means trouble (first her silly student and also the fact that she's just said something rushed to Uncle Bernhard and then her mother). So I thought this would be the perfect ring tone for her :) :)

I wrote it for fun :)
thanks for correcting the spellos, I'll change them later.
I left some phrases in red because i have to check if you can say them. couldn't be bothered to do it this morning because I corrected so many spellos.
stayed up till 3 last night to finish writing this ---> sleepy

What's your impression of Julia? Do you like her?

about the two parts (trip with Roland/// stay with relatives), I'm a bit worried that they don't really fit together that well, but then events in real life are often unconnected and I wanted Julia's schedule to be crammed and stressful

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Originally Posted by Schokokeks

but she had hardly arrived at the family's house and he already, although being presented as lifeless and boring, especially by Aunt Imgard, excerts a fascination on her. I missed some kind of reflection by Julia on the upcoming love/affection between them.

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let's say Aunt Irmgard has her own agenda (did it become clear in the story? I mean, did you get what she was up to at all those tennis club meetings?and of course her remarks aren't always terribly conistent), but there is a reason she presents him as boring.
The idea was that he kind of lives in a quite little place inside his own mind where he doesn't need to listen to Irmgards incessant chattering. But whether he really is that boring is a different matter.
maybe I'll have to find a better way to make that clear

*end of waffle* sorry :)

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Originally Posted by SleepyWitch

hehe, nope i didn't check if the ring tone exists. there's this choir in one of the HP films were the sing the Shakespeare lines and I thought it was fun because she's a Renaissance scholar and when the phone rings in the story it means trouble (first her silly student and also the fact that she's just said something rushed to Uncle Bernhard and then her mother). So I thought this would be the perfect ring tone for her :) :)

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Riiiight, it's from Macbeth, isn't it ? *slow brains* :D Now indeed, it's very fitting ! :nod:. I'll try to find it anyway :)

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Originally Posted by Sleepy

stayed up till 3 last night to finish writing this ---> sleepy

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Wow, congratulations on so much perseverance ! ;)

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What's your impression of Julia? Do you like her?

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Yepp, I do. I liked the scene when she's introduced and contrasted against slowly-reacting Roland. Great idea with the punk clothes of her friend ! I first was a bit bewildered with a punk univ professor :D.

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let's say Aunt Irmgard has her own agenda (did it become clear in the story? I mean, did you get what she was up to at all those tennis club meetings?and of course her remarks aren't always terribly conistent), but there is a reason she presents him as boring.
The idea was that he kind of lives in a quite little place inside his own mind where he doesn't need to listen to Irmgards incessant chattering. But whether he really is that boring is a different matter.
maybe I'll have to find a better way to make that clear

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:blush: The only time I was wondering about that was when she passed that remark about him in the car as Julia leaves. That moment suggested to me that there was something behind her behaviour with regards to him, but before I frankly never thought about it, only that there's something wrong with their relationship as she keeps demolishing him :).
But wait for someone else's opinion on that before you change anything. I only read the story once and maybe it's clearer to someone else !

Anyway, nice story ! :nod:.

Sleepy, I really enjoyed this story. It had me captivated and laughing at times.

"Have you taken your Ritilin?," "the whore", "the Italian guy Enrico...Wow!RRRRRRRRR!," "Is your aunt really a whore," the wonderful conversation with her mother, "Freckles: not so good. Straight nose, straight, glossy brown hair: bonus point." Hehehe. All very funny and entertaining. [What's wrong with freckles BTW? I like girls with freckles.]

Stylistically, just one comment. It think it's best to try to split dialogue into it's own line for each speaker. I got a little confused a couple of times as to who was speaking. But the rest of the writing seemed very polished and in command. I loved the email traffic as a technique. Modern day communications. I'm going to have to try that too somewhere.;)

As to the story:
(1) I agree with Schoky, the Bernhard episodes required (IMO, and everything I'll say IMO without repeating that) more information. I'm not sure still what he was after. Was it a sexual come-on? I think so but I'm not certain. And Julia's reaction to the come-on, her acquienscence, needs some rationale, I think. Why doesn't she stand away or push away? I assume she's sort of been mesmorized by him, but without more of Bernhard's character, I'm not sure why she would be.
(2) There seemed to be a little too much filler that dragged the story out a bit. Some cutting and reducing in a second draft would help. That's why there are second and third drafts.
(3) I'm not sure what the significance of the opening scene is. It sort of gets dropped. But if in your mind as the writer you have a reason, then that's good enough. You're the writer. And I don't think she ever visits him in the hospital like she says she would. Did I miss that? And why is the kid unconscious from just a flesh wound?
(4) If the critical part of the story was Bernhard and Julia's relationship, I think you held that off to the end to long. For a bit of the story I was wondering where is this going? It was entertaining, but I felt it lacked some focus. It seemed that you tried to proportionally write about each day of the week, but perhaps the days don't have to be proportional.
(5) If the carnival supports your theme in some way, then I think it could have been stratched and described in more detail.

Anyway, I really enjoyed it. I hope my commnets help you. So this is what you put off Antony and Cleopatra for? It was worth it. :)

hey Virgil, thanks for taking the time to read and criticize my story :)
Yep, you're right about the dialogue, I'll space it out more.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

I'm not sure still what he was after. Was it a sexual come-on? I think so but I'm not certain. And Julia's reaction to the come-on, her
acquiescence, needs some rationale, I think. Why doesn't she stand away or push away? I assume she's sort of been mesmorized by him, but without more of Bernhard's character, I'm not sure why she would be.

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yeah, this is a tricky bit.... I've just discussed it in detail with my boyfriend and, surprsingly, he thinks I shouldn't change anything about that at all.... (surprisingly as in: I think I should, i.e. I'm more critical of my own story than he is). He says the story is self-explanatory and that maybe you as an American need more information and explanations because American films and books tend to give much more information than European ones and leave less blanks.... But then, Schoko agrees with you and she's not American plus you're an educated person with two degrees, so you can't be that...*insert adjective* (=unaccustomed to filling in gaps) :) I'll just have to see what my other friend's in RL think.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Was it a sexual come-on?

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what exactly do you mean by a 'sexual come-on'? a) which scene do you mean?
1. the lion thingy at the Carnival or
2.

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"There's one more thing." He put his arms around her and held her very gently. Julia gasped and blushed furiously. Should I.. no. She returned his embrace. He was only a little taller than her. She could feel the warmth of his skin through his shirt.
He ran his index finger down her nose and let it rest on her lips. Julia trembled. She closed her eyes.
"There's nothing wrong with your smile." he said. He kissed her on the forehead. Then he let go of her, turned around and walked down the dim corridor. Julia followed him.

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(= he's been watching her fool around and knows she's self-conscious about her ^_^ manga style smile)

If it's the thing about the lion, remember he only says that after she kind of takes the first step ("Uncle Bernhard, you truly are the dullest person I've ever met, but if you say something like that again, I'm going to have a crush on you." )
---> on her part, it's more than just acquiescence (but I'm inclined to agree that there needs to be more about the why/how/ etc of it, see below)

if it's the second scene, I'm not sure that 'sexual come-on' is the right word (too harsh).
well, when I wrote this scene, I thought it was kinda sexy but my boyfriend says Bernhard's gesture expresses a lot of emotion and he wouldn't call it sexy. He said that from a man's perspective you'd only do something like that when you care about somebody, not when you're just after sex. (The 'sexy' variety would be more like "He grabbed her and pressed a kiss on her lips. They f***ed". :sick: :) )

As a woman, I'd say what he does is definitely very sensual (if slightly disturbing!!) and, personally, I wouldn't find it..er pushy/rude/coarse (IF I had a crush on him anyway, even if it's only a subconscious crush). If I liked the guy in the first place, I'd probably like it a lot :) (*hiding in a corner to drool over a character I invented myself, how sad is this?*)
Schoko, always keeping in mind that it's an affair kind of thing (vs. "Let's marry and have 5 children because we get along so well and have so much in common"), would you say his behaviour is a come-on or does it express something more emotional/sensual?

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Originally Posted by Virgil

I'm not sure still what he was after. Was it a sexual come-on? I think so but I'm not certain.

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Schoko and Virgil Did it come across how far they actually go? It was clear to my bf, but I dropped some hints to him in advance... (Again: Let's see what my RL friends think). *NAUGHTY*

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Originally Posted by Virgil

I think so but I'm not certain. And Julia's reaction to the come-on, her acquienscence, needs some rationale, I think. Why doesn't she stand away or push away? I assume she's sort of been mesmorized by him, but without more of Bernhard's character, I'm not sure why she would be.

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hehe, I'm in a bit of a dilemma there.
1. I do not want to provide too many explanations. I want it to be an irrational thing and not the kind of relationship were she thinks to herself "Well, we've got a), b) and c) in common, so we'd make a great couple".
I want her to be kind of mesmerized by him and there doesn't need to be any reason that is easy to pin down.
BUT: I do want them to have something in common, as well. I mean, it's not 'just sex' or something.

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"Well, you go to work and you live your life." Julia glanced at him again. This time he actually looked straight back at her.
There was something deeply touching about the simplicity of his reply.

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If you look at what Julia does in the story, that quote pretty much sums up her way of living, too (not only Bernhards).
I mean, what does she do all the time? She could go to the Carnival or go out etc, but what does she do? Mark her papers. So in a way, she's pretty dull, too.
Plus, she's not just your nice girl from next door, but a univ teacher (who can be pretty bossy/arrogant/ is able to say the nasty things univ teachers need to say). Lots of people depend on her (Roland who's too slow to do first aid even though h e 's the nurse, her silly student who wants to change her topic only a week before the exam and needs competent advice). Her life is manic and she's always rushing around, from her home univ to the conference, from the conference to her papers; she doesn't even manage to reach the town where the conference is without being involved in an accident...
[--> Should I make all of this clearer?]
so Bernhard's reply has a lot of relevance not only to his but also to her situation... [---> should I make it clear what exactly this relevance is?]


Solution:I agree with both of you that she should reflect about it a little more (but not too much). My boyfriend says she shouldn't :)
One solution would be to have her write another e-mail to her friend saying something like "Oh my God, i told him I had a crush on him and I don't know what made me say that. Although in retrospect, I do like him, even though I'm not sure why." blablabla. and her friend writes back something like "You don't need to know what you like about him, just go for it"
that way, it would still be irrational (=she doesn't know what it is she likes about him) but it shows that she's aware of what's about to happen????
What do you think about that?


PS: about Carnival: yep it is loosely related to the theme of the story. Would it help if I stated more explicitly that the main ideas behind Carnival are
a) dressing up/ disguise
b) feeling free to do things you wouldn't normally do (because they are frowned upon/used to be forbidden during the rest of the year)
???


~Thanks so much for your help :)~

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Originally Posted by SleepyWitch

As a woman, I'd say what he does is definitely very sensual (if slightly disturbing!!) and, personally, I wouldn't find it..er pushy/rude/coarse (IF I had a crush on him anyway, even if it's only a subconscious crush). If I liked the guy in the first place, I'd probably like it a lot :) (*hiding in a corner to drool over a character I invented myself, how sad is this?*)
Schoko, always keeping in mind that it's an affair kind of thing (vs. "Let's marry and have 5 children because we get along so well and have so much in common"), would you say his behaviour is a come-on or does it express something more emotional/sensual?

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Hmm...No, it didn't seem to me as a come-on (but then, I'm not that deep into men's psychology as Virgil might be ;)), especially since the story made clear that they had something in common, not only "dullness" but also scholarly interest (she's a univ prof and he reads some history book), contrasted to Aunt Imgard who probably thinks dullness includes scholary interest :p.
I think you've described the scene as a very sensual one, it didn't occur to me that he was directly after sex, although it was an affair. But if he talked to her / dealt with her in different way in that scene, it wouldn't have fitted to the picture I had of Bernhard from the rest of the story.

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Originally Posted by Sleepy

Schoko and Virgil Did it come across how far they actually go? It was clear to my bf, but I dropped some hints to him in advance... (Again: Let's see what my RL friends think). *NAUGHTY*

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Err...well, they were left alone for one or two times :D

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Originally Posted by SleepyWitch

Her life is manic and she's always rushing around, from her home univ to the conference, from the conference to her papers; she doesn't even manage to reach the town where the conference is without being involved in an accident...
[--> Should I make all of this clearer?]

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Yes, please :nod:. It didn't seem to me she was that pressed; she had a lot of appointments and was very demanded, but I didn't feel she minded it much. Maybe *ducking from Sleepy's boyfriend :D* because she didn't reflect too much.

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Originally Posted by Sleepy

so Bernhard's reply has a lot of relevance not only to his but also to her situation... [---> should I make it clear what exactly this relevance is?]

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If you decide to make her stressful timetable clearer, I think you can leave it to the reader to make the connection.

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Originally Posted by Sleepy

Solution:I agree with both of you that she should reflect about it a little more (but not too much). My boyfriend says she shouldn't :)
One solution would be to have her write another e-mail to her friend saying something like "Oh my God, i told him I had a crush on him and I don't know what made me say that. Although in retrospect, I do like him, even though I'm not sure why." blablabla. and her friend writes back something like "You don't need to know what you like about him, just go for it"
that way, it would still be irrational (=she doesn't know what it is she likes about him) but it shows that she's aware of what's about to happen????
What do you think about that?

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That would be an idea! On the other hand, I'd like it better if you sneaked in her reflections not bundled together (as in an email), but bit by bit chronologically with the events. You wouldn't have to make her thoughts that explicit because they would be more spontaneous than in written form. But then, she wouldn't be able to receive a response/advice from her friend...
But anyway, these are just my thoughts, as Virgil said, you're the writer ! ;)

By the way, would you mind if I showed the story to one of my fellow students ? I'll make her guess who of the great classic writers wrote it, of course :D.

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Originally Posted by SleepyWitch

I'll just have to see what my other friend's in RL think.

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*touches body up and down; feels muscle, bone and flesh, and a fat around the waist* Yes, I do think I exist in real life. :lol:

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yeah, this is a tricky bit.... I've just discussed it in detail with my boyfriend and, surprsingly, he thinks I shouldn't change anything about that at all.... (surprisingly as in: I think I should, i.e. I'm more critical of my own story than he is). He says the story is self-explanatory and that maybe you as an American need more information and explanations because American films and books tend to give much more information than European ones and leave less blanks.... But then, Schoko agrees with you and she's not American plus you're an educated person with two degrees, so you can't be that...*insert adjective* (=unaccustomed to filling in gaps) I'll just have to see what my other friend's in RL think.

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Here's a rule by no authority but me: A writer should not have to fill gaps in thought and abstraction. (Actually I thought you went too far in explaining the significance of Carnival.) But he needs to have enough to make the story realized. The events and dynamics of the characters shouldn't be guessed at. Like I said, that's from no authority but my opinion. A reader also doesn't have to be provided everything from a short story. But I think the general thrust of the story needs to be clear.

You shouldn't have to change anything if you don't want to, but if you didn't want a sexual connotation between Julia and Uncle Bernhard then I think you openned the door to that. But here's why I think the event is startling:
(1) For an older man to sit on the bed in Julia's room with her, put his arm around her, and stroke her nose after only knowing her for a week seems shocking. If there were suggestions of this relationship prior, then perhaps I missed it.
(2) The man is her uncle, so one can't avoid the subject of incest. Did you really intend to go there? Perhaps so. [Side note, a few of the younger girls have started calling me Uncle Virgil, I hope this is not what they were thinking. :eek: ]

If you intended the above, then perhaps I missed the preparations leading up to them. Of course, now that I think of it, you do call the aunt a "whore." And of course you set the story during Carnival week. I'll re-read it again now that I know where you were heading.

Now, when are you and Schoky going to join the Antony and Cleopatra discussion? :D

aaargh, do a U-turn there! sorry I've managed to make things even more confusing than they are
of course it's 'sexual' but I meant to say i didn't intend this particular scene as a 'coarse' sexual come-on

hm, seems like the key scene is a tiny bit too vague. my best friend got it right, but she wasn't sure if it means what it does, either. (cf, when Julia wakes up in the middle of the night after they talked about Shakes and looked at the family photos)

nope, he's not her uncle, he's her father's cousins husband (the 'aunt' is her fathers cousin, they just call her aunt), so Julia and Bernhard are not related!

hehe, poor Virgil, I hope I haven't shocked you too much! (hehe, don't worry about the girls calling you Uncle)
poor poor Virgil, the world is full of naughty Europeans :) I'm sorry:bawling:
my best friend says she wouldn't mind Bernhards 'come-on' either. she even says he has a lot of style. she agrees it's "checking out how far he can go" but with a lot of stlye. other guys would just grab her and .."bang".


spello note: on the first but last page the aunt is supposed to say "Now were you!" not "Now did you?"

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Originally Posted by SleepyWitch

nope, he's not her uncle, he's her father's cousins husband (the 'aunt' is her fathers cousin, they just call her aunt), so Julia and Bernhard are not related!

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Wouldn't married relatives count as incest too?

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poor poor Virgil, the world is full of naughty Europeans :)

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:lol: :lol: We have plenty of naughty Americans too. I know that goes on here too.

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I'm sorry:bawling:
my best friend says she wouldn't mind Bernhards 'come-on' either. she even says he has a lot of style.

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Does she want to meet Uncle Virgil? :lol: No, no, I'm kidding. I couldn't pass up that joke.

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she agrees it's "checking out how far he can go" but with a lot of stlye. other guys would just grab her and .."bang".

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In my country, that would be rape. In all seriousness, that can't be allowed there, can it?

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spello note: on the first but last page the aunt is supposed to say "Now were you!" not "Now did you?"

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I going to to read the entire thing again.