The Old Testament IS Christianity

Thinking otherwise is making the same mistake as the Jews did

Genesis prophecies the "Son of Man" that will bruise the serpents head

The central theme that runs through the Old Testament is the Messiah to come

In Daniel is plainly laid out the time line from his time to the Messiah and from there till the opening of probationary time in which we live now.

Jesus made a reference to Daniel's time period in one of the Gospels when speaking to Peter on forgiveness stating "I say not unto thee, until seven times: but, until seventy times seven" Matt 18:22 70X7 times which gives 490, this is the period of years given to the Jews as forgiveness from God when Daniel pleaded with him in Chapter 9.

Jesus was well aware of the time line when he was in his ministry as in one of the other Gospels he states "...Behold I cast out devils, and do cures today tomorrow and the third day I shall be perfected" Luke 13:32 This was 6 months into his ministry he had three years left just as Daniel stated he would have 3 and 1/2 years from 27AD to 31AD when he was crucified.

In The Bible it states that a day is to be a year "..I have appointed thee each day for a year" Ezekiel 4:6.

In Daniel it displays an historical timeline of empires all the way from Daniel to the one "that is diverse from the others" (Those who know my posts know that I believe this to be the Catholic Church) and shows how it will come to an end.

Incidentally the same quantity that was given to Jesus to build up the Gospel(3 1/2 days) is given to the beast power that wars with the saints(In Daniel and Revelation) to break it down only it is given a great deal more for instead of days it is given years. "..and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months" Rev 13:5 or in Daniel 7:25 "..until a time a times and the dividing of time" So this last power being diverse from the others will rise from the last empire and war against the saints for this period of time.

So 42 months 3 1/2 years was given it, you then have to take each day in that time period and give it a year(42 months times 30 days each) so you end up with 1260 years

In 538AD Belisarius recaptured Rome and Papal Supremacy began. If you place the addition of 1260 years it brings you to 1798. Papal power as it knew it was ceased by General Berthier of France on orders from the General Assembly to dethrone the Pope (This is known as the wound in both Daniel and Revelation)

Revelation is the consummation of the entire Bible in one book, it's symbols, themes and illustrations are represented throughout most of the books that came before it.

There is no portion of The Bible to be left out by Christians because it is all one and the same

As always there is a great deal more to The Bible

Christian,

Do you eat pork? Do you believe that all males should be circumsized?
Do you believe that those who commit adultery should be punished with a death sentence? Do you believe that you shouldn't make an image of God?

The quote you are referring to does not state we should apply all portions but that we should not leave them out

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The quote you are referring to does not state we should apply all portions but that we should not leave them out

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:confused: can you clarify?...How can you not apply something and at the same time not leave it out?

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Originally Posted by Amra

Do you eat pork? Do you believe that all males should be circumsized?

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The New Testament refers to these things as part of the Old Convenant. Paul makes it clear in many of his letters that circumcision doesn't matter anymore because everybody is now part of God's covenant. You can circumcise or not, eat pork or not, but it doesn't matter because those laws have been fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

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Originally Posted by Amra

Do you believe that those who commit adultery should be punished with a death sentence?

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The Bible says that the wages of sin are death, so any sin (not just adultery) is punishable by death according to God. The nice thing about it is that Jesus fulfilled that law as well; He died for our sins for us so that we don't have to.

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Originally Posted by Amra

Do you believe that you shouldn't make an image of God?

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Yes, I believe that we shouldn't make graven images of God. But that refers to idols, not artworks (which people do not worship). It's still important not to worship idols. If you're trying to imply Jesus is an idol that is unlawfully worshipped, you'd be wrong (at least by the commandment you quote here) because Jesus is not an image created by man. You could make a case that Jesus was a blasphemer or a heretic (if you believe that He took the name of the Lord in vain), but it's absurd to say He is a graven image of God.

The point of the Old Testament is that it lays the foundation for the coming of Jesus. As Paul explains in Galatians and Romans, the law was given so that we might know we are sinners and that we require the saving grace of Jesus. Jesus fulfills this law by offering Himself as a sacrifice for the sins of everyone.

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The New Testament refers to these things as part of the Old Convenant. Paul makes it clear in many of his letters that circumcision doesn't matter anymore because everybody is now part of God's covenant. You can circumcise or not, eat pork or not, but it doesn't matter because those laws have been fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

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What letters of Paul are you referring to? Are they part of the Bible? Can you quote some verses that state that the Old Testament is not to be followed anymore? What do you mean jesus fulfilled those laws?

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The Bible says that the wages of sin are death, so any sin (not just adultery) is punishable by death according to God. The nice thing about it is that Jesus fulfilled that law as well; He died for our sins for us so that we don't have to.

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Again, what does the fulfillmet of laws refer to? That those laws became invalid? That they have been abandoned?

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Yes, I believe that we shouldn't make graven images of God. But that refers to idols, not artworks (which people do not worship). It's still important not to worship idols.

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4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

Can you explain this commandement in light of Christianity today?


5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Why then do Christians bow to Mary, and consider her holy? Why do they pray to her? (not all of them, I suppose, but a great number)

Christian,
Numerology like this can be both faulty and deceiving. It's dangerous to make associations from obscure and symbolic prophecies to concrete and clear world history. It's also fairly arbitrary, like where did 538 AD come from?

It's important to note, though, that you take your Ezekiel quote incredibly out of context to come up with your year theory; the whole verse 4:6 reads, "And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year." A "day for a year" refers more to this forty-day scheme than all the prophecy of the Bible.

I humbly suggest you look more to the texts themselves than singular symbols. This kind of reading brings us much too close to a Da Vinci Code kind of truth.

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The point of the Old Testament is that it lays the foundation for the coming of Jesus. As Paul explains in Galatians and Romans, the law was given so that we might know we are sinners and that we require the saving grace of Jesus. Jesus fulfills this law by offering Himself as a sacrifice for the sins of everyone.

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Whad did Jesus say about this?

What does Jesus' death have to do with following the laws? If he fulfilled the laws, which I still don't quite understand, why did that invalidate the law? Does that mean that Christians can do whatever they like because Jesus forgave all sins? They can live as they desire; drink, commit adultery, kill, steal, simply because Jesus died for them?

Fulfillment of law: by this I mean that the punishment demanded by the law has been answered. The law demands a price for transgressions. Jesus pays that price for everyone for all time. Transgression + price paid = fulfillment.

Here's some passages about that relating to laws you mentioned.
"Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised. If those who are not circumcised keep the law's requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised?" Romans 2:25-26

"Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus." Romans 3:20-26

Also check out Galatians 3:15-25, which is too long to post here.

All these things tell us that the covenant with Abraham and the succeeding law exist as a precursor to Jesus so that we made be righteous through Him because we cannot be made righteous through the law.

As for your commandments, I don't know. If I were to read verse 4 strictly, I would take this to mean that man is forbidden to paint, sculpt, film, or artistically reproduce anything at all. But that doesn't seem to be correct or accurate. I'm pretty sure God is referring to the pagan gods the Egyptians and other cultures made idols of and worshipped. I can't explain that commandment in terms of Christianity today (can you explain it in terms of Islam today?) because I believe it to be relatively obsolete.

As for verse 5, worshipping Mary is probably a bad idea, but I'm not hear to defend the practices of individuals. I'm here first to use the text to defend The New Testament relative the old. Christianity has done some terrible things, and this sin of idolatry you point out is probably not the most significant. But Islam has done some terrible things as well, and surely you would agree not to hold the religion responsible for the unholy and ignorant acts of a few people. I ask you to do the same for the Christian faith.

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Originally Posted by Amra

Whad did Jesus say about this?

What does Jesus' death have to do with following the laws? If he fulfilled the laws, which I still don't quite understand, why did that invalidate the law? Does that mean that Christians can do whatever they like because Jesus forgave all sins? They can live as they desire; drink, commit adultery, kill, steal, simply because Jesus died for them?

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The best example I can find of Jesus' words on the subject is John 8:4-9.

"and said to Jesus, 'Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?' They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, 'If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.' Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there."

Jesus takes the law as commanded by God and uses it to show everyone their own sin. It's fairly circumstantial, I know, but it shows Jesus' relationship to the law as one who understands its nature better than anyone else. His talk of tearing down the temple and rebuilding it in 3 days reflects that as well, suggesting that He fulfills and nullifies the standards of the old law and erects a new one.

As far as "Christians doing whatever they like," that's one of the tougher questions of Christian life. The answer is no, because Jesus' fulfillment (He is punished for everyone's trangressions) of the law only nullifies its standard of punishment; it doesn't change God's mind of what is right and what is wrong. The true Christian lives with the Holy Spirit, which is also God, and therefore is called to do right by it. It's a difficult tenet to explain, so sorry if this isn't up to snuff.

Thank you for your explanations. I enjoy discussing this withouth anyone getting offended or resorting to ad hominem attacks. We are simply here to offer the different perspectives and say what we know.

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As for your commandments, I don't know. If I were to read verse 4 strictly, I would take this to mean that man is forbidden to paint, sculpt, film, or artistically reproduce anything at all. But that doesn't seem to be correct or accurate. I'm pretty sure God is referring to the pagan gods the Egyptians and other cultures made idols of and worshipped. I can't explain that commandment in terms of Christianity today (can you explain it in terms of Islam today?) because I believe it to be relatively obsolete

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Islam takes it for what it is. It is forbiddent to paint any image of God, or anything that He has given life to. I mentioned this commandement because it seems to me that if you follow one of them, you should follow all of them. If you believe one to be from God, then the other ones are from Him as well. It seems inconsistent to accept the commandments of not killing or stealing as valid, but to ignore this one.

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As for verse 5, worshipping Mary is probably a bad idea, but I'm not hear to defend the practices of individuals. I'm here first to use the text to defend The New Testament relative the old.

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I just thought that this practice is pretty prevelant in the Christian faith. Maybe I am wrong...When you pray, do you pray to God directly, or do you pray to some intermediaries, such as Mary, Jesus, Holy Spirit, etc. to pray to him for you? That would, I guess, be may question.

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As far as "Christians doing whatever they like," that's one of the tougher questions of Christian life. The answer is no, because Jesus' fulfillment (He is punished for everyone's trangressions) of the law only nullifies its standard of punishment; it doesn't change God's mind of what is right and what is wrong. The true Christian lives with the Holy Spirit, which is also God, and therefore is called to do right by it. It's a difficult tenet to explain, so sorry if this isn't up to snuff.

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Do they pick and choose what will be followed and what not? do you only follow the 10 commandements or everything? That is the problem, I guess, because even if you say that the punishment is nullified, which of the laws are supposed to be followed and why? If there is no punishment for your actions, what would motivate people to do anything? I mean, when they are already guaranteed paradise, why would they bother doing anything for it? I mean, don't get me wrong, Islam doesn't teach that we earn paradise by our own deeds, but only by God's mercy. However, those who don't even try, cannot hope for God's mercy. There is justice in that. Both hell and heaven are there because of justice. Those who do good deeds, and follow God's law cannot be the same as those who don't. Right? But, it seems to me, that Christianity equates them, because if both of them accept Jesus, then they are both saved, and are hence on the same level?

Unspar

I suppose I could have used the whole text but I would still have drawn the same conclusion, that God applies days for years.

For example also in

Numbers 14:34 - "According to the number of days which you spied out the land, forty days, for every day you shall bear your guilt a year, even forty years, and you shall know my opposition."

It is reasonable that if God placed a year-day principle in these two prophecies we should perhaps see whether it applies to other prophecies and when we find that it does it is also reasonable to conclude that the year-day principle functions.

Why 538? Well I do believe I explained why but nonetheless would you not agree that prophetic fulfilment has to begin somewhere? It just so happens that it's application is logical there.

If the shoe fits, you have been worned

"If the shoe fits, you have been worned"
This line, I like.

Amra,
I too am glad that we can have a civil discussion like this. I really appreciate the exchange of ideas this forum allows.

Worshipping Mary and the Saints is strictly a Catholic phenomenon, and it's not even that common in Catholicism anymore. It's prevalent in Central America and maybe in parts Europe, but mostly it's not that popular. What I've always been taught as a Christian is to pray to God/Jesus. Jesus can receive and answer prayer as much as God because they, according to Christian belief, are the same. Praying to intermediaries like Mary and the saints still happens, but most Christian belief teaches that one should pray directly to God.

Now the 10 Commandments. We can't pick what commandments to follow and what to disdain, and we don't submit to our inability to follow the commandments. A good Christian will seek to lead a moral life because that is pleasing to God; obeyance is a form of worship. People take their freedom from punishment as a license to disobey God aren't really following Him at all. Anyone who believes in Jesus in their heart will hold God's commandments as well, or at least as best as they can. It's paradoxical, considering we all sin and that we're saved by faith rather than actions. Hard to get the mind around, but that's God, I guess.

There's a similarity in our beliefs in that we both rely on God's mercy; we just find it in different ways. No one can live a sinless life, so people only reach salvation by God's mercy. I believe I have that mercy through accepting the sacrifice Jesus Christ made for me and everyone, and you have it through your belief. Out of curiosity, then, how does following Islam achieve God's mercy?

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Originally Posted by Amra

I just thought that this practice is pretty prevelant in the Christian faith. Maybe I am wrong...When you pray, do you pray to God directly, or do you pray to some intermediaries, such as Mary, Jesus, Holy Spirit, etc. to pray to him for you? That would, I guess, be may question.

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The idea of Mary being holy and prayed to is one the contentions between Catholics and Protestants.....Cathcolics pray to her (Hail Mary etc.) Protestants do not, and I am unsure what the Eastern Orthodox church's opinion is on the matter. See Martin Luther's 95 Theses available on the main site for the disagreements between Catholics and Protestants.

the bible says that there is communion of all saints,-the church militant(here on earth now) the church suffering(those having died and waiting to be united with God ) and the church triumphant_those people now with God that watch over and pray for us.
So we petition those that are triumphant just as we would phone up a friend to pray for us, that is prayer. We absolutely do NOT worship her or any other saint.