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really? I would have said that it is about a superficially patriarchal society but the 'reality' is that the matriarchal presence is highly dominant. Lawrence conveys this in a number of ways such as Hermione clearly wanting to dominate, as is explicitly written, and also in more subtle ways such as metaphors and analogies, many involving animals and other natural things.
Good point. however, as you stated Hermione "wanted" to dominate, but was repeatedly denided the oppertunity by Birkin. supporting that, in this case, the patriarchal society remained dominant.
the novel Women in love is a novel about feminine existince in a patriarcal society, it deals with the growth and development of a new woman daring to claim her validity just like men
For those reading Lawrence, he was an anti-femminist. He beliveved that the problem with the modern world was that it was no longer a truely patriarchal society. Hermione's wanting to dominate is a symptom of the modern world, which Lawrence feels has gone bad. I'm afraid all three of the above readings are flawed.
:D No relativism of judgment or personal opinions here. :D But yes I do agree with Virgil in this case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
I started to read Women in Love yesterday and was so surprised by the explicit symbolism and rather shocking opinions presented by some of characters. It's not that I don't agree with them, but there are so almost naturalistic blunt and in a way cruel. Or is it only me, and that I'm too used to early XIX c lit? The only Lawrence-book I've read before is Lady C's lover, but that was a few years back.
Does anyone really like Lawrence? I came in here to see what other people though of the book, but there isn't much of that.
I like Lawrence very much. I'm reading 'Women in Love' at the moment and having a whale of a time. I actually joined this forum to discuss Birkin with someone. For me, he's one of Lawrence's most entertaining characters. His extreme misanthropy and almost preposterously abstract ideas of 'unison-without-love' strike me at times as Lawrence laughing at himself, at least in part. Anyone care to take this up...?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabo
I don't. Some of my instructors defend Lawrence, but his themes and females are like millstones coated in near mysticism. I don't know about Virgil's view altogether, because sometimes the male/female divide is the high theater, the hatred is the love itself. Did Lawrence hate the mother in Sons & Lovers?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabo
I don't think so, but he just isn't my cup of tea. Women In Love I really can't stand. It is like a Stendal play or something carved into a four point consciousness, and Lady C for me was a victim of its contemporary controversy. I do not find it revolutionary. Silly in some ways.
The instructors I had acknowledged that if they weren't in the mood, Lawrence grated on them. I have never made it past being irritated, even in attempting to be sympathetic. Except for The Rocking Horse Winner, in which he toned down his worse excesses.
Carp - Two threads you may be interested in. We have a Lawrence short story discussion group: http://www.online-literature.com/for...ad.php?t=22801. Currently it's on a little bit of a summer break but we'll return in a month or two. Second, we had a vigorous discussion of Women In Love: http://www.online-literature.com/for...ad.php?t=25347. If you wish you can add your thoughts on Birkin there, which may stimulate a discussion. Glad you like Lawrence. We have a few here. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Carpalim
I did like bits of Women in Love but it got a bit bogged down in philosophical stuff. I liked the men interacting though- although I'm surprised it wasn't up for an obscenity trial, reading the content.
Reading Sons and Lovers at the moment and I really like it.