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Virgil

A New Blog On Respecting

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by
Virgil
, 08-12-2008 at 11:04 PM (2160 Views)
I deleted the previous blog entry. I think that we have come to an understanding and I don’t want to identify anyone in a fixed, forever kind of way. These are temporary emotional things on both sides and do not reflect the complete hearts of anyone, including me. No need to keep that entry around.

But there were several points in that entry that are worthy of discussion. I’m going to try to recreate the important points and discuss my view on them.

First, I really liked this summary of my life experience and wish to include it:
I think I’ve lived a fairly rounded experience to understand the totality of life. I’ve mentioned I grew up poor. I’ll match my childhood poverty with anyone’s: an immigrant family, a father who went completely blind in mid life, a mother needed to take care of husband and three small children, welfare, working at the age of thirteen so I could have a few bucks in my pocket. I grew up in a Brooklyn immigrant neighborhood. You might consider it rough compared to others. I saw around me people who ruined their lives and made bad choices, drugs. pregnancies, crime. It certainly was a breeding ground for future mafia people, losers of course. I worked two jobs to get through college, even refusing financial aid because I was too ashamed to take it. And graduating and getting a good job and understanding the business world and being somewhat successful and buying a house and then helping to buy (with my siblings) my parents a house of their own so that the last ten years of his life my father didn’t need to feel like a pauper. I’m not rich but I’ve been poor and I am now fairly well off and I have some experience to know what it takes and what helps and what doesn’t.
I wish to add to that. I have not only lived a life but I have learned, book learning if you will, a lot. Certainly literature, but philosophy (despite my distaste for it), sciences of course, history (ancient and medieval mostly), music and arts (perhaps superficially, or in a critical manner rather than a doer sort of way), and even politics. I know most associate me with a political point of view, but that is based on many things, oth my life experiences and learning. I have reached almost half a century in age and so I’ve developed very distinct values (individualism, freedom, work ethic, justice, personal and human dignity, family, compassion, yes compassion, learning, patriotism, and more that don’t come to mind at the moment) and perhaps they are more fixed than those of most people because of my age and because I have given them contemplation.

So when someone says I can’t see beyond the tip of my nose, they obviously don’t know me. They’ve made assumptions. There is something behind my thought process that perhaps someone should ask how I came to it. Take the issue with China and the Olympics. How can one think that shaming China will have any benefit? Does anyone really think that China is going to change an once because some people in France and Germany and the US criticize them? I don’t see it. Yes, a statement was made prior to the Olympics and that was proper and necessary, but there is a time and place to raise issues and there is a time to move on. Shaming is not the same as raising an issue. China is slowing moving in a positive direction (at least that’s my impression) and millions if not hundreds of millions of people are improving their standards of living that is beyond dire poverty. Can anyone name a single instance where a country has been shamed into improving human rights? Where, when? I don’t know of any. It may give you some abstract satisfaction by taking a hard line but it does nothing on the issue. A better approach, one which I’ve disagreed with my conservative brethren, is ally one with China and slowly shift their culture along. Perhaps you disagree, but don’t say I am moral reprobate because I have a different way of looking at the issue.

I wanted to highlight a few comments:
Quote Originally Posted by Janine
Virgil, I can understand where you are coming from and I do feel badly this happened to you this week. I think that you just have to stick to your principals and personal beliefs at all times and not let anything sway you or make you angry. In defending them verbally, you really don't convince the offending parties and so one just ends up going in circles, which is truly useless and a waste of energy. I think you wrote this very well and you said it all very honestly/truthfully. I am pretty much a conservative thinker myself, so I understand.
Quote Originally Posted by Nossa
I don't know what happened exactly this week, but I can totally relate to what you're feeling at the moment.
Quote Originally Posted by Mother-H
]Virgil, thank you for such a wonderful blog entry that really brings to light some things that bother many of us. …We are a diverse people with different views and experiences and we all have something to offer. Sadly, some people can only offer criticism and insult. It has become so argumentative that it’s difficult to talk about anything other than what we should name our new ducky (a fun thread, but not to be compared to some of the more serious threads - I’m not making fun of the ducky thread!) I’ve been thinking about it some after having similar problems and I’ve decided that there are just people who like drama and argument even if it does make them look ridiculous to act the way they do.
What the quoted comments have in common is that there is a different perspective that is just as slighted by other people’s statements as those who accuse me of slighting them with my statements. Perhaps those who don’t share my views don’t realize that their views also slight others without realizing it. A number of you (Sweets, Sleepy, Fifth) said that I bring it on myself. Perhaps. I am flamboyant. I am quite open. How many times have I seen atheists slighting people who believe in a religion? It’s everywhere. Even today I noticed a number of people who ridiculed those who believe in magic. Now I don’t believe in magic but there are people who do and I know they are on lit net. Nossa started a thread a few months ago on respecting the views of others. http://www.online-literature.com/for...respectAmazing it was the atheists who brazenly said that they did not respect believers. I don’t think any side has a monopoly on slighting people. The point is that if I irk people with my views, so do others and you may not even realize it. Perhaps it depends on whether you agree with that person or not.

Quote Originally Posted by Fifth
…But still, I understand what Sleepy's saying too: sometimes you make quite bald statements and, perhaps there's a latent mathematician in me, but I'm only half satisfied with conclusions, only if someone can explain how they reached their conclusion will I be satisfied that the reasoning, the conclusion is sound.
That is fair. I am bold and bald (I do have hair still thank God) but what you and Sleepy do correctly is ask where I’m coming from and you get an explanation. I doubt I convince anyone (I have rarely ever seen anyone convince anyone of anything on forums) but at least you are respecting the intelligence of someone you might disagree.

Quote Originally Posted by Fifth
So sometimes you vex me here, though I hope I never resort to insults, or if I do you would tell me. And I suppose it's also hard to appreciate how frustrating it can be for a 'non-grown up' (aka, products of the 60's / us fluffy liberals!) to be faced with the unyielding conservative view, it's kind of like a wall, there's no give in it.
Well who says your views or anyone else’s are any more yielding? I haven’t seen it.

Quote Originally Posted by Fifth
I suppose you could say there's no point debating, that two opposing views will never agree, and that's probably true but then if we're not able to discuss, explore each other's views then there will only be conflict and no understanding, and I don't like the idea of that. So, I hope you will continue to debate with me, so long as we agree to try not to insult each other!
I think we’ve had a few good discussions. I hope to have more. I doubt we convince each other of anything but it’s important to engage.

Quote Originally Posted by Fifth
But there is always the unwitting; I think it is very difficult to debate subjects in writing, it is inherently impersonal, easy to forget that there is a real living, thinking person at the other end of your written words. And I think it is easy to end up writing things you wouldn't say if you could see the person and measure the impact of those words straightaway. And it is hard, sometimes, to appreciate how those words will be received, what the triggers are that will cause hurt, because we are all sensitive to different things.
Yes that’s exactly the point I wanted to make with this blog. We all hit nerves of people who disagree, and it’s not just me. Others just don’t realize it.

Quote Originally Posted by Fifth
But if you recall, Virgil, in the past I have accused you of rudeness when it wasn't your intention, and perhaps it is difficult to appreciate what it may feel like to be on the other end of some of your own favourite words like, 'silly' and 'ridiculous' which are inherently judgemental, even though I know (now) that you don't intend it so. Sometimes you remind me of my husband (!), very strong minded and confident but not always very forgiving. It may not surprise you to hear that he is (or perhaps was!) and engineer too!
Hahaha, I didn’t know that about your husband. Perhaps I represent husbands who wives always want to strike with a bat for his cockiness. My wife has a similar problem. Poor wife. I admit that “silly” and “ridiculous” are borderline judgmental. You know I was referring to the idea not you, and you must admit that idea was way out of common thought. I have notions that are way out of common thought and if someone were to turn to me on those ideas and call them silly I would understand. Some day I may tell you some.
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Comments

  1. sprinks's Avatar
    Interesting entry, Virg . Well... I don't have all that much else to say!
  2. Nossa's Avatar
    I have notions that are way out of common thought and if someone were to turn to me on those ideas and call them silly I would understand. Some day I may tell you some.
    Talking about staying out of trouble I don't have much to say either. I guess it's all down to the fact that we're human beings and we're different. That's all there's to it.
  3. mtpspur's Avatar
    I must be out of the loop here because I have never thought you rude to anyone just stating a mature well thought out opinion in a personal dare I say passionate (when appropriate) manner that often sheds light on the subject. But that's just me. As I tell people I'm easy to please.
  4. Virgil's Avatar
    Thank you guys. This entry got lots views but few comments. I wonder what that means? I must have hit tacit agreement.
  5. 's Avatar
    Actually, I've been thinking about the yielding point, because of course you're correct but then it wasn't exactly how I meant it either. Yielding was the wrong word. Perhaps it is more the case that the conservative view is restrictive, where the liberal view is more unrestrictive, so naturally if one is saying 'everyone should be allowed to do X' and the other is saying 'no one should be allowed to do X', then one will butt against the other. And in truth we're all a little of one and a little of the other, it's just a question of where you draw the line, and the line will be different for different things. But I agree, the view is not yielding. So we agree, I think As to 'ridiculous' and 'silly', perhaps this is a cultural thing but I cannot conceive of those words being used in anything other than a personally derogatory way. 'Silly' is dismissive, the kind of word you use to dismiss a child, and 'ridiculous' is jeering. They always make me flinch. You can disagree without using those words, I think, just like you can disagree without saying 'you cannot see past the end of your nose', too. Aren't people weird? We get hung up about such strange things. Anyway, I'm glad you're feeling a bit happier. It's a good blog entry and I think most people will agree that we can debate, so long as it doesn't get personal and rude. And that we can still disagree, but by exploring and discussing each others views we can at least respect how we've drawn the conclusions we've drawn, even if we don't agree with them. It's a matter of individualism isn't it? In Murakami's book What I talk about when I talk about running he says
    Emotional hurt is the price a person has to pay in order to be independent
    and I think there is some truth in that. 'Cor. That was a bit random wasn't it?!?!?
  6. 's Avatar
    Oh, and I meant to say something about this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil
    it was the atheists who brazenly said that they did not respect believers.
    You know, that kind of makes me sad, but I also understand where it comes from. I guess it's a bit of a reaction to years of having religion shoved down your throat when you don't believe, and having Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses turning up on your doorstep trying to convert you. It's just as hairy on the other side Virgil. It used to bug me, especially when one of, what used to be, my close friends tried to convert me, because she felt I was missing out. Oh poor me! She really didn't understand, and I found that very frustrating, as on the other side I could understand why, and how her faith was important to her. But now, well, I've grown up, and it doesn't bother me now. Faith, or lack of, is a personal thing. It's not something you should have to rationalise either way. But it's also one of the reasons I stay well out of the religion thread. It just seems like it's set up to bait people, though of course it is there to discuss religious texts. Shame really. Like all other things, it doesn't really need to get personal, but at the same time it's completely personal, if you see what I mean?
  7. kilted exile's Avatar
    Regarding a country that has been shamed into improving things - possibly a contender could be the aparthied regime in SA
  8. Virgil's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Fifth
    Actually, I've been thinking about the yielding point, because of course you're correct but then it wasn't exactly how I meant it either. Yielding was the wrong word. Perhaps it is more the case that the conservative view is restrictive, where the liberal view is more unrestrictive, so naturally if one is saying 'everyone should be allowed to do X' and the other is saying 'no one should be allowed to do X', then one will butt against the other.
    Liberal is unrestrictive? Ha. What's all this about me not being able to have a SUV because it burns too much oil or forcing me to recycle or all this politically correct speech that is not supposed to offend anyone or forcing me to pay money for a socialized bus system that I don't even use? Restriveness is in the eye of the beholder. In fact the whole Liberal nanny state, cradle to grave concept is one huge restriction on me. What's more restrictive than taking money out of my paycheck. No one is truely a Libertarian. All issues are framed in moral terms, whether it's environmental or social.

    But let me explain my "restriveness". How is one to establish social norms? Society, community itself, is established by boundaries and codes. Yes, I may be judgemental, and that's not to say I haven't made the same mistakes myself, but without estabishing norms we are just adrift. Nothing binds us together as a community without social norms. I am continuously amazed at how many young people want to work for me at work, how many enjoy my comments and befriend me here on lit net, and how many in a world of do what ever you feel agree with me. Look at your side of the political spectrum: you don't believe in religious codes, you're too reticent to criticize bad behavior, and there are some that don't even believe in jailing criminals. Give me a break. How is one supposed to establish boundaries? All I see is give out condums and do it if it feels good.
  9. Virgil's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Fifth
    As to 'ridiculous' and 'silly', perhaps this is a cultural thing but I cannot conceive of those words being used in anything other than a personally derogatory way. 'Silly' is dismissive, the kind of word you use to dismiss a child, and 'ridiculous' is jeering. They always make me flinch.
    I will be more sensitive to my use of those words. I do think they have a place in a debate, but I will be more conscientious. You had an impact on me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fifth
    You know, that kind of makes me sad, but I also understand where it comes from. I guess it's a bit of a reaction to years of having religion shoved down your throat when you don't believe, and having Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses turning up on your doorstep trying to convert you. It's just as hairy on the other side Virgil.
    Well, that's hairy on all sides. I don't like proselityzing at all. No matter where it comes from. But really how often does one of them stop at your doorstep? It's been years since anyone has stopped at mine. I look at stuff like this as the price one pays for living in a crowded city. One meets and encounters all types. In large populations there will always be places where people bumb elbows. No different with the large group here on lit net.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fifth
    But it's also one of the reasons I stay well out of the religion thread. It just seems like it's set up to bait people, though of course it is there to discuss religious texts. Shame really. Like all other things, it doesn't really need to get personal, but at the same time it's completely personal, if you see what I mean?
    I know completely what you mean, and I stay out of that forum myself.
  10. Virgil's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Kilt
    Regarding a country that has been shamed into improving things - possibly a contender could be the aparthied regime in SA
    Good point Kilt. Yeah that might be the one case, but it was in conjunction with economic embargoes. Nonetheless, I think the protests had a good effect there. Thanks.
  11. applepie's Avatar
    :lol: I don't know if "tacit agreement" is what you are getting my friend;) It is so hard in forums such as these to express yourself in a way that is both you and a way which will not offend others. I've often found myself rewriting entries because something that I mean in joking is too easily taken in a literal sense. I'm very much the type of person who uses an abundance of sarcasm in my dealings with people, but that isn't something that will come across here. I guess the big lesson is that we should all be more careful in screening what it is taht we are saying. Just because it isn't meant to be offensive or hurtful doesn't mean that it will not come across as such. Without the aid of facial expressions and body language, it can be very hard to know what is really meant by certain comments. Much Love, Meg
  12. Pendragon's Avatar
    Exactly why I visit the Religious forums rarely, is because of people's lack of thinking things through before they post, myself as guilty as anyone. Refreshing to see someone who is so honest, Virgil. I enjoy having you as a friend.
  13. Bancini's Avatar
    missed it too...love your post virgil

    religion is something that i take seriously, even as a nonbeliever. I am currently talking extensively with my wife's uncle who is a pastor about faith and god. I feel like it's not worth venturing into the forum on religious texts here, the discussions seem to break down too quickly
  14. Virgil's Avatar
    Thanks for the comment Bancini. Yeah i don't venture into the Religious forums much. Can you imagine if we allowed politics here? It would be a food fight.
  15. kiz_paws's Avatar
    Well, I am certainly not sure exactly what was going on to have you write and then delete a blog entry. But I did find this entry interesting and the key point is respect.

    As for the religious area of this place -- no, I have said it before, you won't find me hanging out there. And it is NOT because I am not religious...

    It would be great to just realize that sometimes people can agree to disagree -- afterall, a good debate can be fun and we can all learn. But anyhoo...
    ~K♥zzo