Progymnasmata

This kind of makes me want to cry to read this. How intuitively your students answered-something we have known. We are no longer encouraged to teach them how to think; if we do so, it must often be subversively.

At least that's how it works in my part of the world.

A good blog, Comedian-by which I mean it is thought- provoking, and has value.

I would agree with that statement in essence. For me value is based on an item's impact in my life and its importance to me. SImple example: A copy of Batman #1 is of great economic value BUT my copy of issue #125 is of MUCH greater value to me because it was my FIRST issue I ever oned and read of his series and has led me on to a world of discovery as a result. Hope this makes sense.

Originally Posted by qimissung

This kind of makes me want to cry to read this. How intuitively your students answered-something we have known. We are no longer encouraged to teach them how to think; if we do so, it must often be subversively.

At least that's how it works in my part of the world.

A good blog, Comedian-by which I mean it is thought- provoking, and has value.

Thanks for your kindness, qimissung. And I feel for teacher like you who teach in the secondary schools -- you have so little room to maneuver. At least in college (I teach in a rural community college), the teachers have some autonomy over their curriculum. But sadly this too is fading.

But yeah, I was surprised with their responses.

What's interesting but a bit dismaying is that the students consider "value" not as
an intrinsic element of knowledge but rather subjectively as it relates to their own lives. Such a response ties into what I've been railing about lately on the LitNet.

On Bill Maher's "Real Time" a couple of seasons ago he made a similar observation about present-day students. (Shades of Alan King et al. -- "These kids today! I'll tell ya. . .") Anyway, Maher said that with any mention of the past, a reference to World War II, for example, the kids will throw up their hands in disgust, make a clucking noise and say, "Well, that was way before I was BORN!"--as if any historical event that didn't occur in their own lifetimes was not worth knowing about.

This, among other reasons, is why I truly believe teachers who care about their subject matter get decades shaved off their sentences in Purgatory ---

--and substitute teachers get a walk.

To be honest I'm a little confused as to the gist of this Comedian. Are you criticizing the student's response or are you asking for if value in education lasts?

If you're criticizing the students, I think you're being kind of harsh. You don't say what age they are. If they're younger than high school, then i can't imagine how they could answer such a question. If they're in high school, I would have to say there are two types of students and their answers would be different. Students who are not college bound must certainly have a real world job on their minds, and therefore if knowledge is not utilitarian then what's the point makes perfect sense to me. If they're college bound students, then value is really a nebulous concept since all possible knowledge (possible because they haven't gone to college yet to discover the great thoughts) is equal and relative. How can a student answer that unless he learns something and puts it to the test in the world.

Also, by you asking what is "value" in education, your students were steered to a different wavelength than you. The term "value" is an abstraction and I think your students were led by the word to an abstract answer, not a specific one. I think I would be too.

Is value only that which lasts? No, you might need some element of education only for a few years, but still you need it or you can't get by those few years.

What do i think is value in education? Not sure, but i think my answer would be different after 25+ years out of school than while i was in school.

Virgil, I can't speak to Comedian's educational philosophies, but if I were to ask a class what they wanted to learn (I realize I am phrasing it differently than he did) it would be to get them to think about why they were actually there in that room and what they actually wanted or hoped to get out of it, and to hopefully come to the conclusion that they weren't going to get anything out of it if they didn't put anything into it-and what were they willing to put into it, anyway?

And that would be step one.

I would and have done things like that on occasion in order to break through the complacency with which so many students enter a classroom. They are often on autopilot from day one and we want them to be engaged.

I think it's interesting-and helpful, actually-that he gave them a phrase, an idea, a guide, to latch onto. Sure it's abstract, but that's the point-to get them to begin thinking of the great abstract ideas. Unfortunately in my case what they learn is the word actually.

It's a good lesson.

Hey Virgil --

I wasn't criticizing them, at least that was not my intent either in the classroom or the in the blog. It's fine to want a good job. Hell, we all should want that. I just don't think a "good job" is a "valuable skill" or valuable knowledge. It's the end, one of many ends, of knowledge and skill.

I also condensed my lead-in to the question when I wrote the blog so I could cut to the story/point right away.

In truth I was, as qimissung noted, trying to engage them in a discussion about how education is sold to them. I teach in a rural community college, so often the only reason to "go to school" is to "get a job". This reason is fine, but because the class was a rhetoric class, we address how such an equivalency affects how we think about and treat our education. . . . I could blather on, but I'll spare you.

Here's some knowledge of value: A man who wears a watch always knows what time it is, but a man who wears two is never quite sure.

I have to agree that the word "value" is a bit too ambiguous, at least in this blog context. The variety of definitions may be limited if you're addressing the question to something like a class of business majors--they'll probably all share similar definitions--but here I immediately jumped to a philosophic one.

Maybe value is something that lasts; then can we consider valuable things that procure things that last? If we can't, then most people would probably think that there aren't many valuable pieces of knowledge out there.

Yet, in the end, we all die. Ergo, we all have no value.

Simply discussing what the "value" is would be valuable.

Huh. I would have said something along the lines of "how to get food in whatever kind of lifestyle you're currently existing in."

cunning -- you're right, "value" is a vague term. But that's okay. I honestly didn't "want" the students to say any one, particular thing. It's just that I quite often hear about the the "value" of education or the phrase "value added" classes. Or I have to field question like "how is this subject valuable"?

So I thought it wise to ask what similar sorts of things -- knowledge and skills -- do students currently value.

It's definitely important to know what one values. Most of us are simply told what to value, or coerced, and since the values are not really ours we often willingly forget them and the reasons behind our enterprises. Indeed, I think, many kids going to community colleges are afflicted by this, and my hat is off to you for trying to shake them out of the lull. Certainly some of the teachers are also afflicted and would never care enough to try anything of the sort.

An interesting blog Comedian, I'm sorry I missed it. I'm curious about one thing though: what would you have answered?

Originally Posted by TheFifthElement

An interesting blog Comedian, I'm sorry I missed it. I'm curious about one thing though: what would you have answered?

"Anything that gives my brief time in this life a deeper meaning and passion"