About animals

[Danik 2016]

As we have only few threads on animals an most of them aren´t active any more I´m opening a general thread on animals real and or fictional of all kinds (mamals, birds, insects, etc.), their enviroments and al matters related to them, plus curiosities, stories, poems and pictures about them.

[Danik 2016]

The most curious animal I know is the duck-billed platypus. But the mata-mata gets an easy second place. I only heard about it some days ago in one 1 minute insert about nature, a kind of nano national geographic programm.
It is a member of the turtle family. In fact this South American species looks like a crossing between a turtle and a dinossaur, whose had has been run over by a truck.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mata_mata

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TTEXbALyys
(Sorry, the "s" of the title got lost somewhere but the narrator is native in English)

[tailor STATELY]

Cool.

what am I ?

22 fleshy rays
sensory overlord
star child taupe fiend
nocturnal omnivore

7/10/2015 tS

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjZusHs1KLSAhVKw4MKHfKuAk0QtwIINzAD&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DEg z2f5_Ip3U&usg=AFQjCNGFO5yNcjccimo6sbg9D7pQgAzhuw&sig2=I03HkgW_SAWeaNiMXGjWLw

http://www.naturalhistorymag.com/picks-from-the-past/201397/a-star-is-born

[YesNo]

I didn't know such creatures as the star-nosed mole and the mata mata existed.

[Danik 2016]

I didn´t know either about mata-mata some days ago and I am absolutely amazed at this "sensory overlord". I hope they learn to use it to prevent earthquakes without harassing it.
And:
"Star Wars 22-far beyond your imagination!"
Coming soon!

[Mohammad Ahmad]

Real story I witnessed
In 1960s, we were living in a rural area; a village was composed of muddy houses not more than thirty. One day evening, as any evening of that ancient time when there is no modern services or supplies such as; electric lights, television and even radio but to those who were extensive in richness. All people would go out their houses as soon as hearing the attack sound. No one knew what the matter is, but to see all our animals like dogs, cattle, hens have been frightened. It would jump over the muddy walls just to cutting by teeth any animal met in its way. Everyday we have losses on our animals yet we do not know what the reason is. Still thinking into the occasion until one night we heard shouts distantly come from the right side beyond the river. Always farmers there would irrigate their farms especially at summer's nights. We heard a human voice asking help but he was far away to reach.
On the next day, we knew that man, who asked the help, has been attacked by a wolf "a rabid wolf, then the man has been carried to the hospital of the city and there died due to the biting of a rabid wolf. From that time, our animals were saved and no such noises we heard at night.
Eventually we considered the story that the rapid wolf is the attacker and the losses of our cattle and hens are due to it.

[Dreamwoven]

I agree with Danik in broadening the subject of animals to include insects. They play a vital part in our world. Originally I thought of bees, and the way they produce honey. But also insects like the silk worm, and various disease transmitting insects. I look forward to seeing how this thread develops.

[YesNo]

Did someone kill the rabid wolf, Mohammad?

Here's one of my favorite poems about dog bites by Oliver Goldsmith: http://graduate.engl.virginia.edu/enec981/dictionary/24goldsmithD2.html There is some commentary at the end of this link that I don't quite follow and so ignored.

[Mohammad Ahmad]

Did someone kill the rabid wolf, Mohammad?

Here's one of my favorite poems about dog bites by Oliver Goldsmith: http://graduate.engl.virginia.edu/enec981/dictionary/24goldsmithD2.html There is some commentary at the end of this link that I don't quite follow and so ignored.

Yes, that rabid wolf has been killed by the attacked man himself, as he felt nothing to do, he put one of his hands inside a wolf mouth, but after a moment he remembered that he had a dagger belted into his middle so he soon pulled out the dagger and stabbing the wolf. It is familiar to all that each rabid animal even the human if bites others the disease will soon transmit ( move down) to whom \ which was bitten. It is a real story not a fabricated story.

[Danik 2016]

Mohammad: A sad story. Here in Brazil, they exterminated rabies by yearly vacinating for free dogs and cats in the cities. But I don´t know if the vacination programm is still working as well as before.

DW-Thanks. Contribuitions will be very welcome.

Yes/No-Your poem solved a mystery. Years ago I read a story you probably know (I think there is a film too), The Painted Veil, by Somerset Maugham - The story is set in China. The protagonist comits adultery and to punish her, her husband, who is a doctor forces her to move with him into an area where there is a cholera epidemy. But the woman learns to love the work she does, helping the people. Her husband dies saying to her: "It was the dog that died." I think she didn´t understand what he was saying and I didn´t either until I read the poem.

[YesNo]

I suspect the wolf would have died eventually anyway and apparently he did have rabies if the man died.

I have't read or seen The Painted Veil, but the movie is at the library: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Painted_Veil_(novel) Maugham could have been referring to that poem. It is rather famous.

[Danik 2016]

I think he did. The man tried to destroy his wife, but at the end it was he that died.
Thank you for the subtle correction of the misspellings of Maugham´s name. Sometimes the connection between head and hand gets mischievous,

[Dreamwoven]

I agree with Danik in broadening the subject of animals to include insects. They play a vital part in our world. Originally I thought of bees, and the way they produce honey. But also insects like the silk worm, and various disease transmitting insects. I look forward to seeing how this thread develops.

https://everythingsilkworms.com.au/silkworms/
Silkworms are the larvae of the domesticated Silk-Moth. It is an economically important insect, being a primary producer of Silk. The Silkworm’s preferred diet consists of White Mulberry leaves.

Domesticated Silk-Moths are entirely dependent on humans for reproduction, as a result of hundreds of years of selective breeding. Wild Silk-Moths are different to their domestic cousins (having not been selectively bred), however, they are not commercially viable in the production of silk.

Sericulture – the practice of breeding Silkworms for the production of raw Silk – has been one of the world’s biggest trades for at least 5,000 years, originating in China, from where it spread to Korea and Japan, and later to India and the West.


See also the Silk Road: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silk_Road

[Dreamwoven]

Louse (Lice, plural) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louse are described as follows:

Louse (plural: lice) is the common name for members of the order Phthiraptera, which contains nearly 5,000 species of wingless insect. Lice are obligate parasites, living externally on warm-blooded hosts which include every species of bird and mammal, except for monotremes, pangolins, bats and cetaceans. Lice are vectors of diseases such as typhus.

Chewing lice live among the hairs or feathers of their host and feed on skin and debris, while sucking lice pierce the host's skin and feed on blood and other secretions. They usually spend their whole life on a single host, cementing their eggs, which are known as nits, to hairs or feathers. The eggs hatch into nymphs, which moult three times before becoming fully grown, a process that takes about four weeks.

Humans host three species of louse, the head louse, the body louse and the pubic louse. The body louse has the smallest genome of any known insect; it has been used as a model organism and has been the subject of much research.

[YesNo]

They usually spend their whole life on a single host, cementing their eggs, which are known as nits, to hairs or feathers.

Now I realize where "nitpicking" came from.

[Danik 2016]

"Now I realize where "nitpicking" came from."
Lol. I had to look it up.

DW, I didn´t know there were three different types of lice that lived on humans. The body louse must be almost invisible.

As for the Silkworms, we have some silk culture here too, I believe in Paraná, one of the states of the south. Of course it is much more modest than in China. And it suffers a stong concurrence from the cheaper artificial silk.

[Danik 2016]

Also interesting is the pink boto or Dolphin. It lives in the waters of the Amazon but it isn´t always pink. IThis water charmer is surrounded by the legends of the river folks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_river_dolphin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCJgvabihQ8

[YesNo]

I think he did. The man tried to destroy his wife, but at the end it was he that died.
Thank you for the subtle correction of the misspellings of Maugham´s name. Sometimes the connection between head and hand gets mischievous,

I checked at the library. At the end of chapter 66, Waddington informed Kitty, "It's the last line of Goldsmith's Elegy."

[Danik 2016]

Thanks, Yes/No.I didn´t remember that any more. Anyway, when I read the book, one didn´t have internet yet to check on things. I probably didn´t look for the Elegy or if I did, I didn´t understand the meaning at that time. I also don´t remember any more who Waddington is but I don´t think that it matters.

[YesNo]

I was mainly confirming for myself that this was in the novel. I saw the movie last night. https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/painted_veil/ Based on the plot in Wikipedia, the movie seemed to follow the book, but it didn't reference Goldsmith.

[Danik 2016]

I like the psychological part of the story, the positive development of Kitty. I don´t think I saw any of the films. I hope you enjoyed it.

[YesNo]

I liked the movie. I might read the book since I like to see how Maugham redeems characters that look hopeless. I also liked those pink dolphins. I didn't know vertibra could be "floating" in an animal.

Here is something I wrote for another site about a dog in response to a poetry challenge. The required form was a haibun: a short piece of prose in the first person followed by a nature haiku. It is more or less a true story. Its main point is to retell an ancient story of a man and his dog being disappointed at the gates of heaven.


Walking in Circles


From the distance of a lifetime, a spiral describes it better, but the smaller ones seem circular to me like when walking from one side of the room to the other, turning around and then walking back. Or, walking to the library, standing tall with shoulders back so the air can more easily enter my lungs and my eyes can look right at it, trying to realize, even when I can’t, that everywhere I am still able to go and everything greeting me on the way from sidewalks and apartments to trees and clouds are a gift from or a hint of heaven.

I think in circles as I walk in them. Sometimes I pop those thoughts and sometimes I enjoy them again and again like that ancient story of a man and his dog that keeps coming to mind. Perhaps they died much like my ex-brother-in-law who was found burnt in an apartment fire. His dog stayed with him on his lap. It is them I see walk to the gates of heaven and find that sign, “No Dogs Allowed”. The gatekeeper confirms that there is no problem with him going in, in spite of everything, but not his dog. Since heaven wouldn’t be heaven if one were alone, I see him turn around. He takes his dog and they walk toward a scenic, spiraling path that appears before them and everywhere they go is heaven.



GEESE AND DUCKS RETURN
PEOPLE WALK THE PARK IN TWOS
FLOWERS COMING SOON

[Danik 2016]

If you liked the film maybe you´ll like the book even better.

I liked this poetic story very much,though the story of the ex burnt brother in law may be the real part of it.
We all walk in circles and think in circles but there is liberty in refusing heaven for a better heaven.
Though I think animals are not only allowed in heaven, they are a part of it.
One of my schoolteachers said once: if God didn´t have a sense of humour he wouldn´t have invented the frog.

[tailor STATELY]

Pangolin... http://www.awf.org/wildlife-conservation/pangolin : The only animal that starts life as a vegetable (artichoke).

[Danik 2016]

Lol. Another proof of the existence of dinosaurs!
And the next time I see an artichoke, they are a luxury here, I´llpay atention, if there isn´t a small, wistful head peering out of the flower.

[YesNo]

The pangolin curled up does look like a vegetable.

I am reading Marc Bekoff and Jessica Pierce's "Wild Justice: The Moral Lives of Animal". Their claim is that animals, at least social mammals for whom it is easier to detect signs of moral, "other-regarding" behaviors such as cooperation, fairness and empathy, have a moral life that is different but still comparable to our own. From personal experience, even chickens seem to have a moral life, but they are making a good start in viewing animals as centers of subjectivity rather than as some Descartian machine.

[Danik 2016]

Aplied to animals, "moral" sounds very strange to me because it seems to imply that animals
have a kind of ethical judgment or evaluation of actions. I don´t think they do. Several species have shown themselves capable of cooperation, affection, fairness, emphaty and loyalness, but I don´t think this is the result of a moral positions. I think it is spontaneous. They´ve an amoral innocence.
When I was still a child their appeared a stray cat,which gave birth to three or four kitten in the small room in our backyard. I observed that the bigger kittens drank themselves fat, but the smallest didn´t get any mother milk. So I took it and put it to her tit, so that it might get his share. The next day I found that she had bitten its had of. I was very shocked. I think I never went near that childmurdering monster any more and my faith in the whole animal world was shaken.
Probably the cat simply didn´t believe that the kitten would survive, so she invested in the other ones.

[tailor STATELY]

http://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/animals/stories/what-the-heck-is-a-tanuki-8-things-you-didnt-know-about-raccoon-dogs ...

(Surprised me.)

Morality in animals is mostly anthropomorphism IMHO, though many animals have a gentle nature after domestication... some not so much. Sociality among familial/social lines might be a better term. I am tempted to find a copy of "Beastly Morality: Animals as Ethical Agents"/Jonathan K. Crane https://books.google.com/books?id=Tw7TCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA152&lpg=PA152&dq=jane+goodall+morality+in+chimpanzees&source=bl&ots=sb2DaYw07z&sig=2kRTChR0T_KTnHcekzwav9UDnlk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjv6rKRqazSAhUI9WMKHc0DDPwQ6AEIgQEwEA#v= onepage&q=jane%20goodall%20morality%20in%20chimpanzees&f=false and https://cup.columbia.edu/book/beastly-morality/9780231174176


Rather than claim animal morality is the same as human morality, this book builds an appreciation of the variety and character of animal sensitivities and perceptions across multiple disciplines, moving animal welfarism in promising new directions.

[Danik 2016]

Beautiful dogs! Very interesting information specially the one about the faux fur!

I agree with the thesis of anthropomorphism, but I think some animals are born gentle, others less so. When they are domesticated they learn to behave as their humans want.

The book is a recent publication. It seems that in US their are no few studies about animal morality.That astonishes me. I´m going to have a look if there are any studies here.

[Danik 2016]

Part of the Carnival Parade of "Aguia de Ouro"(The Golden Eagle). The theme of the parade is the defense of animals and this part does homage to the relationship between the homeless and their dogs. Last winter many homeless refused to go to the shelters because they couldn´t take their dogs with them. So the city administration opened a shelter that accepted the dogs too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b69OHnYk8Q

[YesNo]

Aplied to animals, "moral" sounds very strange to me because it seems to imply that animals
have a kind of ethical judgment or evaluation of actions. I don´t think they do. Several species have shown themselves capable of cooperation, affection, fairness, emphaty and loyalness, but I don´t think this is the result of a moral positions. I think it is spontaneous. They´ve an amoral innocence.
When I was still a child their appeared a stray cat,which gave birth to three or four kitten in the small room in our backyard. I observed that the bigger kittens drank themselves fat, but the smallest didn´t get any mother milk. So I took it and put it to her tit, so that it might get his share. The next day I found that she had bitten its had of. I was very shocked. I think I never went near that childmurdering monster any more and my faith in the whole animal world was shaken.
Probably the cat simply didn´t believe that the kitten would survive, so she invested in the other ones.

I was surprised once when I saw a chicken, one of the four I had, eat her chicks as they hatched. But then I also saw one of those four chickens (I could not distinguish them), commit suicide after my bad dog killed her three companions a couple of days previous to that. It was a very deliberate act of slowly walking up to my dog staring him in the face all the while. I was in the garden and saw everything. There was enough time for me to tell my dog "No", but he was a bad dog and I couldn't reach them in time. Of course those chickens were tormenting him when he was on a chain.

[YesNo]

Part of the Carnival Parade of "Aguia de Ouro"(The Golden Eagle). The theme of the parade is the defense of animals and this part does homage to the relationship between the homeless and their dogs. Last winter many homeless refused to go to the shelters because they couldn´t take their dogs with them. So the city administration opened a shelter that accepted the dogs too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b69OHnYk8Q

That reminds me of the guy who wouldn't go to heaven without his dog.

[YesNo]

http://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/animals/stories/what-the-heck-is-a-tanuki-8-things-you-didnt-know-about-raccoon-dogs ...

(Surprised me.)

Morality in animals is mostly anthropomorphism IMHO, though many animals have a gentle nature after domestication... some not so much. Sociality among familial/social lines might be a better term. I am tempted to find a copy of "Beastly Morality: Animals as Ethical Agents"/Jonathan K. Crane https://books.google.com/books?id=Tw7TCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA152&lpg=PA152&dq=jane+goodall+morality+in+chimpanzees&source=bl&ots=sb2DaYw07z&sig=2kRTChR0T_KTnHcekzwav9UDnlk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjv6rKRqazSAhUI9WMKHc0DDPwQ6AEIgQEwEA#v= onepage&q=jane%20goodall%20morality%20in%20chimpanzees&f=false and https://cup.columbia.edu/book/beastly-morality/9780231174176

That book sounds interesting. I'll see if I can find it. I think it is more a matter of definition of what behavior one considers to be moral. Crane's book is not in their bibliography.

One case study they report is about the Rodriguez fruit bat and how one female bat was acting as a midwife to another. Here is a summary of that study: http://www.batcon.org/resources/media-education/bats-magazine/bat_article/698?tmpl=component

[Danik 2016]

I was surprised once when I saw a chicken, one of the four I had, eat her chicks as they hatched. But then I also saw one of those four chickens (I could not distinguish them), commit suicide after my bad dog killed her three companions a couple of days previous to that. It was a very deliberate act of slowly walking up to my dog staring him in the face all the while. I was in the garden and saw everything. There was enough time for me to tell my dog "No", but he was a bad dog and I couldn't reach them in time. Of course those chickens were tormenting him when he was on a chain.
I have a feeling, Yes/No, that we often tend to think that we know more about animal psychology than we really do. Were my cat, your dog and the chicken really "bad' or were there special reasons for their behaviour? I think the same applies to that suicidal chicken.
What did it really understand about the whole situation?
Maybe there are books about animal psychology/ animal behaviour that are enlightening on the subject.
It´s the first time I read of a hen? eating her chicken.

[Danik 2016]

That book sounds interesting. I'll see if I can find it. I think it is more a matter of definition of what behavior one considers to be moral. Crane's book is not in their bibliography.

One case study they report is about the Rodriguez fruit bat and how one female bat was acting as a midwife to another. Here is a summary of that study: http://www.batcon.org/resources/media-education/bats-magazine/bat_article/698?tmpl=component
Impressive account about the midwife help among bats. It reminded me of the way older and more experienced elephants help their young ones and their inexperienced mothers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SauNUEw_OU

[Danik 2016]

That reminds me of the guy who wouldn't go to heaven without his dog.
Me too!

[YesNo]

I have a feeling, Yes/No, that we often tend to think that we know more about animal psychology than we really do. Were my cat, your dog and the chicken really "bad' or were there special reasons for their behaviour? I think the same applies to that suicidal chicken.
What did it really understand about the whole situation?
Maybe there are books about animal psychology/ animal behaviour that are enlightening on the subject.
It´s the first time I read of a hen? eating her chicken.

Yes, it was the hen sitting on those eggs that hatched. I was hoping to get chicks.

The main reason I picked up the Bekoff and Pierce book was to find answers about why that chicken walked up to the dog. Although the book is interesting, it is mainly a philosophical attempt to justify extending morals to animals, but it stops with mammals and tries to make its case align with Darwinian individualism, which basically is an individual's motivation to pass on genes. I think there is more going on than reproduction in evolution and would look to Niles Eldredge's punctuated equilibria to justify that. So, I am a little disappointed with the book, but it does provide interesting examples. Those elephants you mentioned would be a good example of the cases they are trying to make.

[Danik 2016]

I am very suspicious about books that try to atribute morals to animals. I don´t think animals have the same categories of "good" and "bad" that we have, but again I am not sure even about that.
There might have been a hundred reason, why that chicken walked up to the dog, one of them because it didn´t realise that it was running any danger. It seems this chicken had tormented the dog before and nothing happened.
Some links that may help to a start:
http://articles.extension.org/pages/66175/normal-behaviors-of-chickens-in-small-and-backyard-poultry-flocks

http://freefromharm.org/chicken-behavior-an-overview-of-recent-science/

[Danik 2016]

Cat Big Brother in Island for adoption purposes:
http://nutiminn.is/kattarshians/

[YesNo]

I am very suspicious about books that try to atribute morals to animals. I don´t think animals have the same categories of "good" and "bad" that we have, but again I am not sure even about that.
There might have been a hundred reason, why that chicken walked up to the dog, one of them because it didn´t realise that it was running any danger. It seems this chicken had tormented the dog before and nothing happened.
Some links that may help to a start:
http://articles.extension.org/pages/66175/normal-behaviors-of-chickens-in-small-and-backyard-poultry-flocks

http://freefromharm.org/chicken-behavior-an-overview-of-recent-science/

Those are good links. The second suggests research has grown: "Much of what was previously thought to be the exclusive domain of human / primate communication, brain and cognitive function, and social behavior is now being discovered in chickens and other birds." That's what I think also.

What is "good" and "bad" are not the same as they are for us as for other species.

The chickens as a group tormented the dog. They could see how far the dog's chain reached and would just step over the limit. Also, the vegetation in the way of the chain had all died with the dog jumping at those birds. They would approach the dog outside his reach and then step inside the circle. When he lunged they would quickly turn around. Looking at them, it seemed they were tormenting the dog on purpose. They also played with me while I worked in the garden. I could see them watching me out of the corner of my eye and then when I looked up they pretended to be grubbing for worms. This time the chicken walked slowly looking straight at the dog putting her head out for him to grab which he did eventually. At first he was puzzled. He gave me a look. I could see the bewilderment in his eyes. There was no need to jump to get the chicken. She walked right up to where he was standing close to his doghouse.

[Helga]

Cat Big Brother in Island for adoption purposes:
http://nutiminn.is/kattarshians/

Hey I was gonna do that... I actually applied to get one of those cats. unfortunately they were all gone, but new cats will move in this week so maybe I'll get another chance. one of the cats is named after our president

[Danik 2016]

I was thinking of you, when I posted this link as the only Litnetter, near enough to apply for one of these cats.
Sorry you were too late but it is important to know that the video is old and not a current one as I thought.
I wish you more luck this time, but if you can´t get one of these cats I´m sure you will find another responsible cat donating instituition.

[Danik 2016]

For American peers who want to adopt a dog or a cat there is an important information. There seem to be lots of animal shelters all over US, but there are also these death rows, where pets are put away if they are not adopted in time.
I don´t know if all shelters work alike, but it is important to know that so you can save one or more lives instead of buying a pet with pedegree.
I'm putting up this link which I just found in Google as example. But not being from US I don´t have any other information about the instituition as the ones on the link:

http://urgentpodr.org/

[Danik 2016]

Those are good links. The second suggests research has grown: "Much of what was previously thought to be the exclusive domain of human / primate communication, brain and cognitive function, and social behavior is now being discovered in chickens and other birds." That's what I think also.

What is "good" and "bad" are not the same as they are for us as for other species.

The chickens as a group tormented the dog. They could see how far the dog's chain reached and would just step over the limit. Also, the vegetation in the way of the chain had all died with the dog jumping at those birds. They would approach the dog outside his reach and then step inside the circle. When he lunged they would quickly turn around. Looking at them, it seemed they were tormenting the dog on purpose. They also played with me while I worked in the garden. I could see them watching me out of the corner of my eye and then when I looked up they pretended to be grubbing for worms. This time the chicken walked slowly looking straight at the dog putting her head out for him to grab which he did eventually. At first he was puzzled. He gave me a look. I could see the bewilderment in his eyes. There was no need to jump to get the chicken. She walked right up to where he was standing close to his doghouse.
I think it would be important for you to look better into it to understand better what happened. The facts can´t be changed any more, but maybe you still have a feeling after a long time, that you could have handled the situation differently. I can´t say that being far away in time and space. But there may be different ways to understand this situation.

[YesNo]

I assume all pets in shelters are on death row, but that may not be the case.

I also handled the situation with those chickens and that dog poorly. Just about everything went wrong and I was responsible for most of that.

One can always interpret events in different ways.

[Danik 2016]

Maybe from lack of information, Yes/No.
The animals themselves try to teach humans how to handle them (cats seem to be born with a manual of Human Pedagogy) but today you can also get a lot of information in the net.
That probably wasn´t the case when your story happened.

[Helga]

I was thinking of you, when I posted this link as the only Litnetter, near enough to apply for one of these cats.
Sorry you were too late but it is important to know that the video is old and not a current one as I thought.
I wish you more luck this time, but if you can´t get one of these cats I´m sure you will find another responsible cat donating instituition.

It is a live stream and I have been watching since it started. There were so many people who wanted to get them. Here on the ice there is really only one animal shelter and that is only for cats, they are one part of the team doing this. We don't have an issue with stray animals other than cats. No stray dogs here.

The new cats arrived today and as I am writing all five of them are sleeping in the same bunk bed

[Danik 2016]

I just opened the link, and there is a message that the three cats were adopted and a new family is moving in. It seems the link remains a bit outdated, but it doesn´t matter so much as you seem to be the only Litnetter who is able to candidate for one of the cats.
They actualised the link, so one canwatch the new group.

[YesNo]

Here's a link about a cat that nursed ducklings which is not something I expected to see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlqTHhdCQko

Also, Danik, your link to information about chickens led me to William Grimes "My Fine Feathered Friend". Apparently a black hen appeared in Queens (New York) and it is an account of one man taking care of it until it vanished. I took the Bekoff and Pierce book back to the library to finish later.

[Danik 2016]

An absolute amazing story as the ducklings are not mamals and cats are used to predate not to nurse feather animals. It is a sight to see these ducklings feeding on the cat, and the cat handling them very carefully. I think the real kittens were less happy about that unexpected kinship. But all is well that ends well!:)

There is so much about the animal world that we don´t know und don´t understand. You probably did well to take back a book that didn´t answer your questions. That episode of the chickens and the dog still seems to distress you.Whatever actually happened it seems to have been very long ago and you are probably the only one still affected by this memory. Maybe it would be time to find ways to get over it.

[tailor STATELY]

Insect in Danik 2016's neck of the woods that I'd never heard of... http://www.strangeanimals.info/2014/12/the-helicopter-like-bocydium-globulare.html

[Danik 2016]

Interesting specimen, Tailor, never saw it though. Probably lives somewhere where the fauna is more varied than here
Here is another member of the family the "Little widow".
https://www.flickr.com/photos/simns/772184967

A new expression: "neck of the wood":smile5:

[YesNo]

Those two insects are odder than I expected insects to be. We don't have to go to other planets to find bizarre forms of life.

I finished Grimes' "My Fine Feathered Friend". He mentioned some things one can do with chickens besides eating them.

1) You can hypnotize them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wMOR31ktPE (You can also hypnotize a dog: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYmfVPPzFSw)

2) You can teach them to play the piano: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfPBfMGLf9Q

3) They can beat you in tic-tac-toe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbxdXgCTJGo

[Danik 2016]

1) Why should one want to hypnotize an animal?

2 and 3) It seems they can be conditioned to a certain degree. I don´t know the game but the chicken knows what is expected of him.
I don´t like this conditioning of animals just to show them off in public and make money out off them. Put in a similar situation,
Gulliver used to think very poorly of the people of Brobdignag.

[YesNo]

I have no idea why one would want to hypnotize them. What surprises me is that one could train them at all.

[Danik 2016]

This article gives a general idea I think on how the chicken conditioning works. I hope the PDF can be integrally acessed.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1338159/

From other headings in Google I learned that preparing chickens for show exibition is not something unusual.

[YesNo]

They used newly hatched chicks for the training. That may give them more reliable results. Showing chickens is common, but I didn't realize before this that people got them to do tricks. I'm reading Lauren Scheuer's "Once Upon a Flock: Life with my Soulful Chickens". Grimes also mentioned that the chicken would sneak up behind their cats and make a noise to scare them. Also the cats and the chickens ate food together.

[Danik 2016]

In the videos it looks natural enough. But in fact it might be a chicken harrasing conditioning based on a reward/punishment methods. I suppose the chicken recognise positions of objects/lights. I don´t think they are able to recognise written numbers. But if they are trained by a good player, who will teach them the several positions they have to choose, it will look for the public as if they were choosing according to the number. Same thing with the piano. The teacher must know how to play the tune. The birds probably memorise the position of the keys not the tune.

https://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/chicken_training/

[YesNo]

I can see that the training has to involve food and the animal being comfortable to be around the trainer as in the link you mentioned. Apparently they learn fast what they have to do to get the food. That means the human is not discouraged.

Reading Scheuer's book, chickens have different personalities. I didn't notice that in the ones I had probably because I didn't have the personality to pay attention to such things when I had those birds. Also it helps having different breeds of chicken so one can visually separate them. Mine were all white. I couldn't tell them apart. Scheuer got a mixture of different breeds. I got mine from a neighbor after helping him clean out his chicken barn. They were hens that the people missed when they loaded these birds off to market.

[Danik 2016]

Yes I suppose chickens have different personalities but I never had chickens. I was more used to cats and cats do have different personalities. Something that is a bit confusing for me: chicken for me are either the yellow little ones or the food. The adults are either hens or their male companions whose name always gets censored by LitNet. I was somewhat confused when you wrote that your chicken ate their chicks until I realised that you were talking about a hen.
It seems that white hens are more viewed as pets, as people miss them when they bring them to the market.

[YesNo]

I use the word "chicken" to primarily refer to a hen, or female chicken, although chickens in a general sense could include the males or "roosters". Chicken also refers to the food. A "chick" is what comes out of the egg until it gets too big to look cute. One thing I was told to be wary of with chicks is not to hug them to your cheek or give them a kiss because they do peck and could cause damage, but I was never tempted to cuddle with them.

Since I took care of chickens on our family farm (both hens and some roosters), cleaning the house, adding bedding, picking up eggs, they were never viewed as pets, but I can see how they might be. The handful of chickens I obtained later that the bad dog got his jaws into I picked up on my own. I was told by a neighbor that the hen ate those chicks because she needed calcium. I got them some minerals to supplement their food, just in case, but I don't know if that guy knew what he was talking about.

[Danik 2016]

Thanks, Yes/No. So chicken is a synonym for hen, not the baby. And that advice about how not to cuddle chicks makes sense. Even with cats, I read somewhere, you have to hold them in a way they can´t claw you, specially if the cat doesn´t know you.
You are a regular farmer then. I thought you weren´t because you seem to have a very romantic view of poultry(I don´t like this word very much).
As for calcium, isn´t it mostly in the shell of the eggs?

[YesNo]

I know some people who hold a cat like they are holding a baby rocking it on its back. I usually hold it so the legs are below me. I think it gives the cat more security. If a cat is trying to claw me, I usually set it down unless I have to carry it somewhere.

I've worked and lived in rural surroundings for twenty years or so, but I am pretty ignorant of much of what goes on with farming.

Poultry is a more professional way of referring to chickens. The calcium would be part of the egg shell. I don't know why that hen pecked her young, but people use incubators for chick eggs which avoids the risk of damage to the eggs. I haven't used them myself. For those hens that I had I could almost read their minds, but I didn't hypnotize them.

Anyway, here are some pictures of cats I ran into today while looking for something else. I think this blog only contains cat photography but I haven't looked at it for very long: https://meowingpics.wordpress.com/2017/02/23/christmas-cats-3/

[Danik 2016]

Cute pics!
I sometimes held my cats in rocking position, but they were cats that knew me very well and so they made velvet paws.
Putting a cat down when it tries to claw is quite a good idea.

I sometimes thought I could read the minds of my cats but with hens that must be much more difficult I think for there are less signs.

[Danik 2016]

Sphynx cat

Talking of cats...The Sphynx cat is not a favorite with those that fall in love with a cats furryness but they are coveted by cat lovers that are alergic to cat fur. Without the natural protection of fur they are very vulnerable to the cold.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphynx_cat

[YesNo]

Looking at those pictures of a sphynx cat, one could more easily see their facial expressions without the fur and then imagine what they are feeling. With chickens, I look at their eyes and imagine what they must be thinking. It isn't as much to go on as one has with a cat.

[Danik 2016]

My both tabby cats were very expressive. The problem sometimes is how much they really expressed and how much one imagines that they express.
One thinks one knows all about humans and animals one has lived a long time with until they surprise one.
Chickens are a mystery to me.

[tailor STATELY]

Ayam Cemani... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayam_Cemani

[Danik 2016]

Interesting species, Tailor. I don´t think it exists here but that is good, because many people are superstitious about black hens and black cats.

These chickens one finds here and they are noted for their beautiful design:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmeted_guineafowl

[YesNo]

It is the first time I heard of the all black Ayam Cemani. The guineafowl I've seen before. Although they look like chickens, I tend to think of them as not a chicken, but a guineafowl. However, I might be in the minority.

As with all empathy even between humans it might be mistaken.

My wife told me the other day that our cat "has me trained" when I told her the cat got me to turn on a faucet so the cat could drink from it. The cat has plenty of water. She just wanted to see if she could get me to do a trick for her. I might be imagining all that, but I like the idea of the reciprocal relationship of two species getting each other to do tricks.

[Danik 2016]

We have black hens here but I don´t know it they are Ayam Cemani. I have mostly lived in urban environments and I am learning about chicken with you and stately. When my mother came to Brazil she had chickens. I suppose it didn´t work so well for later she opened a nursery for children.
I remember seeing guinea fowls in a smaller more rural town, where I lived some years and where the chicken used to be around. I thought the guinea fowl very beautiful.
Lol!Ithink your wife is right. What I obseved with my cat is that they love atention. When my last cat was still youg it went to the wardrobe and caught a certain cord girdle. He wanted me to go around with the girdle trailing on the ground so that he could chase it.

[YesNo]

The one thing about the cat I have and the one that trained you with the cord girdle is that we know they are training us and we don't mind. We play along with them and they play along with us when we try to train them (at least the chickens seem to).

My bad dog trained me without my knowing it. He knew he wanted to get those chickens but he couldn't get off his chain. However, I would take him for walks down into the forest area behind the cabin. I think I would take him on walks for up to half a mile. When we were far from the cabin, I would unleash his chain and he would play around. Then he would come back like a good dog and let me chain him again. He won my trust. We did this many times. The day he decided to get those chickens we went down the woods trail. He wanted to go even further so I did. He waited for me to unleash him, like a good dog. As soon as he was unleashed he started racing back toward those chickens. I called out, "Fred!" The dog paused briefly, turned his head but not his body and gave me a wicked look. After his chicken problem was taken care of he never barked hoping I would take him for a walk anywhere.

[Danik 2016]

I think that´s were we differ, Yes/No. According to your account, the dog had it all planed coldly, just waiting for the right opportunity to get the chicken. A human might do it like this and not any human, but I am not at all sure of the dog. Why do dogs attack of a sudden people, sometimes even loved family members they wouldn´t have attacked before? I can´t tell you.

One thing I was told a long time ago is that dogs may get more aggressive when on a chain. And it seems this dog was sistematically henpecked. When I was a child I got a puppie. I usually get along well with animals but Jambo was very wild and I think I got afraid of him. He ruined the garden and eventually my parents found other owners for him.

What happened to Fred?

[YesNo]

Fred wasn't really my dog. I was just taking care of him for a few months till the owner returned although the dog was very young when I first got him. I gave him back to the owner.

The mystery about the dog and that chicken has two areas where many would agree with you and disagree with me. I admit I would be in the minority on these two issues:

1) How far in advance did Fred plan to trick me? I think it was weeks in advance.

2) Did the chicken commit suicide? I would say, Yes.

[Danik 2016]

I am glad Fred went back to his owner because after what happened I don´t know how you would get along .

Of course I am not in a condition to answer these questions, but what they have in common is that they are based on the assumption that both animals acted as certain humans would have acted in that situation. The idea of a chicken comiting suicide because she has lost her companions doesn´t seem totally impossible to me but it is very strange. And I wouldn´t find it strange that the dog tricked you in the spur of the moment, but planing weeks in advance... I don´t know.

Unfortunately I didn´t find anything more scientific but this link might interest you.

https://www.quora.com/Do-animals-have-memory-of-harm-done-to-them-and-can-they-take-revenge-on-the-harm#!n=60

[YesNo]

I am glad Fred went back to his owner because after what happened I don´t know how you would get along .

Of course I am not in a condition to answer these questions, but what they have in common is that they are based on the assumption that both animals acted as certain humans would have acted in that situation. The idea of a chicken comiting suicide because she has lost her companions doesn´t seem totally impossible to me but it is very strange. And I wouldn´t find it strange that the dog tricked you in the spur of the moment, but planing weeks in advance... I don´t know.

Unfortunately I didn´t find anything more scientific but this link might interest you.

https://www.quora.com/Do-animals-have-memory-of-harm-done-to-them-and-can-they-take-revenge-on-the-harm#!n=60

That link was amazing and I bookmarked it. It also looks like crows and dogs and probably other species can share their desire for revenge with other crows and dogs and get their cooperation. Here is a link from that link showing this: http://www.seeker.com/angry-birds-crows-never-forget-your-face-1765286502.html I hadn't considered the social aspect of this, but that made me realize I assume those animals act as individuals. That even needs to be questioned.

My most intense encounter with Fred was after I walked that half mile back to the cabin finding Fred chewing on one of the birds. The surviving bird flew to a perch out of the way, but there was only room there for one bird. She could see all of the damage. Fred saw me, dropped the bird and went inside the cabin as if he were going to defend that place as his own. I walked in and listened to his growling and saw his bared teeth. I got onto my knees so I could more easily defend myself and hold him down when he came at me. I had his chain in one hand and I told him harshly to come to me. We stared each other down and I expected him to attack. I wasn't sure if I would survive that encounter unharmed. Then he lowered his head and walked over submissively and I chained him. I felt sorry for him at that point and forgave him whether he forgave me or not.

[Danik 2016]

I didn´t know that either. Maybe it is just another form of protecting the group. What I miss in the internet are truly scientifical articles in English (written by researchers and not just by journalists). In Portuguese you sometimes find what you want, In English you usually have to pay for the articles.
As we say in Portuguese Yes/No, you poked the tiger with the short stick. The "tiger" in this case acepted you as his master in the situation, probably because you showed no fear.
I shoudn´t wonder if Fred got a bit confused in the beginning about who his real owner was.

[YesNo]

I normally don't pay for research articles although I might purchase survey level books. Usually there is some source that will provide the non-expert level of information that I find relevant without cost. If I were a researcher studying a particular field, I would have to have those sources, but then I would probably be a member of those organizations already.

As far as science goes, most of this would be considered anecdotal, which is a kind of uncontrolled data or measurement. They could form the motivation of an experiment that generates more measurements. I usually restrict science to collecting data (including anecdotes), performing experiments to generate data and then constructing a model to explain the data. Anything outside that is philosophy or speculation.

Fred probably thought he was the alpha dog, and that would have been fine with me, but he was inside the cabin where he normally did not go. I would likely do the same thing if I were in his place. I do think it would be possible for him, seeing that last chicken approach him, to feel some empathy and not harm the chicken. That would be a real sign of compassion, but humans rarely do that either.

[tailor STATELY]

The lesser known "Google Scholar" might be of use for research: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Scholar

It is limited in scope (small / growing database) but can come up with some interesting results.

Example: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=star-nosed+mole&btnG=&hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5

[tailor STATELY]

Digg is being guest curated by Audubon today; a sample:

Woggins... http://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/whats-a-woggin-a-bird-a-word-and-a-linguistic-mystery?utm_source=digg&utm_medium=email

5 missing Audubon birds... http://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/whats-a-woggin-a-bird-a-word-and-a-linguistic-mystery?utm_source=digg&utm_medium=email

[Danik 2016]

Thanks, good tip, Tailor, I knew about Scholar but had quite forgotten about him.
What I was looking for, where some solid experiments in animal and particularly dog psychology. Unfortunately articles by Scielo and other scientific magazines are seldomly to be had for free.

[Danik 2016]

I normally don't pay for research articles although I might purchase survey level books. Usually there is some source that will provide the non-expert level of information that I find relevant without cost. If I were a researcher studying a particular field, I would have to have those sources, but then I would probably be a member of those organizations already.

As far as science goes, most of this would be considered anecdotal, which is a kind of uncontrolled data or measurement. They could form the motivation of an experiment that generates more measurements. I usually restrict science to collecting data (including anecdotes), performing experiments to generate data and then constructing a model to explain the data. Anything outside that is philosophy or speculation.

Fred probably thought he was the alpha dog, and that would have been fine with me, but he was inside the cabin where he normally did not go. I would likely do the same thing if I were in his place. I do think it would be possible for him, seeing that last chicken approach him, to feel some empathy and not harm the chicken. That would be a real sign of compassion, but humans rarely do that either.
I think Yes/No we live in a society that antromorphises everything, animals, objects, robots, aliens and so on, and it seems for us natural to expect that the animals will behave in the way we would or the way we think right. That was the reason I was so shocked about the cat that killed her kitten. As for Fred I don´t know if he would be able to feel compassion or even know what that feeling was. He might be simply fed up with those, from his point of view irritating chicken, but even that I don't know.

[YesNo]

Google Scholar looks pretty good. I've added the button to Chrome. There is also a Google Image search interface: https://images.google.com Click the camera icon. Then you can copy the url of an image and place that into the search engine and get information on it.

I tend to anthropomorphize animals, and de-anthropomorphize robots.

[Danik 2016]

Found this on the Scholar link Tailor recomended. I don´t like the Google form of books content display
but this link might interest you. Seems to be a kind of history of taming and pet creating.

https://books.google.com.br/books?hl=en&lr=&id=8s-qq1CYjugC&oi=fnd&pg=PR5&dq=dogs+psychology&ots=_FthaNLk7m&sig=lshY9r-p1ztJhN8EceBnF9FPnos&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=dogs%20psychology&f=false

[YesNo]

The forward is by Marc Bekoff. He was the ethologist co-author in the earlier book I was reading. That one does look interesting. Thanks!

[Danik 2016]

You mean the one about animal morals? That is a coincidence. Maybe there are not so many scientist that write about the theme. I hope this book or something similar is available in your library.

Just one more article found also on Scholar:
http://ac.els-cdn.com/0304376283901116/1-s2.0-0304376283901116-main.pdf?_tid=b6216898-014c-11e7-bd21-00000aab0f6b&acdnat=1488681644_cf5766f287a21cb80cce294fb87ce768

[Danik 2016]

A lot of activity going on just now on:

http://nutiminn.is/kattarshians/

First time I see these kittens play. I tmust be getting warmer over there.

[YesNo]

There are three views on the kattarshians: top floor, bottom floor and above. I didn't notice that the last time. This might be a way to discretely study animals such as those bats. I also bookmarked the article on you cited on Scholar.

[Danik 2016]

I read that it was actually based on Big Brother. However in this case, there isn't much to watch as the kittens mostly sleep. Anyway it´s a way to make people interested in adopting then.

[YesNo]

What do you feed your cat? Or other pets? We feed a dry food supplemented with some canned stuff, but we are substituting that for tuna that humans consume. It is cheaper (surprisingly) than the canned cat food and the cat likes it better or at least the cat finishes eating it.

[Danik 2016]

My last cat died in 2012. I used to feed him dry food mostly. As he grew older I had to change the normal adult food later for a slimming diet because he was growing fat and he suffered from the spine. Much later this food was echanged for a special urinary diet when he started the disease that ultimately killed him. He absolutely loved tuna. I remember feeding him much tuna when he didn't eat dry food any more.
One important thing is to put a lot of water at the disposal of the cats as cat are prone to urinary diseases when they get older. As for fish, I remember that the veterinarian was a great enthusiast of sardines as a suplement. She said sardines contained everything a cat needs. So I bought him a fresh sardine now and then without fishbone and cooked it in a bit of water (no salt).
This link may be helpful:
http://www.catbehaviorassociates.com/ten-common-mistakes-when-feeding-cats/

[YesNo]

That's good to know about the tuna. In case my cat needs water and she is not just training me out of boredom, I've added another place for her to get some.

[Danik 2016]

Lol! I think she is really thirsty, but she probably loves that extra atention. And many cats love to drink streaming water, don´t ask me why. There are even cat fontains. I had to love at some of the videos:

http://heavy.com/pets/2016/07/top-10-best-cat-water-fountains/

[YesNo]

If that fountain works, I won't have to leave the faucet on.

[Danik 2016]

Your cat probably will prefer you comanding the faucet.

[YesNo]

I will just give her water when she wants it. However, those fountains look like a good idea for when we are gone overnight and can't take the cat with us.

[Danik 2016]

It also will make the cat more independent of you, when she wants to drink water during the night, for example. And a fountain with running water may be a nice plaything.
I only knew the importance of drinking much water for cats, when it was too late and Tino was already very ill.

[YesNo]

It makes sense to get one of those. Thanks for the recommendation. She does like tuna also.

[Danik 2016]

You are welcome. I hope the cat and you enjoy it. If you get such a fountain it would be nice to have an feedback. Might be useful to other cat owners.

[YesNo]

I will. I think you are right that she is thirsty.

Here is a video of a crow feeding a cat and dog: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZ3o5S61lBY

[Danik 2016]

Thanks, Yes/No. The animals are very cute, but it looked as if someone was trying to train them for the video. Anyway, cat and bird went away when they had enough of it.

[YesNo]

They did look trained. Here's the one I was originally looking for: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-wrt9BLWQE It is about a crow taking care of an abandoned kitten.

[Danik 2016]

It´s very touching, specially to watch how they do everything together. Here is one extended version of the story with statements of every one involved: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JiJzqXxgxo

[YesNo]

It looks like a better made video.

I was thinking about anthropomorphizing animals and I wonder if this idea has a history. That is, did people in the past have a problem with this? There is Aesop's fables where animals are acting very much like humans. Based on this Wikipedia article there is also "personification" which would be done to non-living concepts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropomorphism

It looks like it goes back to 1753 as a word, but it is the perspective on reality that I am curious about, but then it was used as "anthropotheism": making Gods look like humans.

The article notes even Darwin accepted anthropomorphism with a quote from him: "Even insects play together, as has been described by that excellent observer, P. Huber, who saw ants chasing and pretending to bite each other, like so many puppies." So perhaps the annoyance with anthropomorphism begins in the 19th century.

[Danik 2016]

A very interesting article, Yes/No. I suspect that the anthopomorphisation be it of gods, animals, forces of nature or inanimate objects,follows the (not necessarily conscious)aim of making all of them more familiar to us. If we think they are all like us, feel like us and even think like us, it becames easier to understand them and deal with them.
I believe there are points of contact between animals, and there certainly are between humans and their pets.Your cat knows exactly what she has to do if she wants water or food.The problem IMO is to be able to distinguish a projection of my own feelings into the animal and a genuine response from the animal.
The video shows how these different animals are able to adapt to each other. I was thinking how badly they would hurt each other if they weren´t.The cat makes velvet pows
so she doesn´t hurt it´s small and fragile "mum". And "mum" uses her beak only to provide food for this somewhat "different baby". It would be interesting to know if the relationship went on and how once the kitten grew up.

[tailor STATELY]

Some poems using anthropomorphism I wrote several years ago.

Background: Hawkman, a regular forum contributer, related in a poem almost 7-years ago that he needed to rid his flat of mice: http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?54385-Intruder My poems (3) follow shortly after given inspiration by Hawkman's poem, and subsequent poems:



moiaussi (for hawkman)

such a vile nom de plume for a moiaussi to view
why not cheesenip or woodbine or even curlew
still he writes with such verve with so much flair
rarely the doggerel he crafts with words quite debonair
not profligate but profound pounding out his tome
of posies of prose and here and there a poem
i skitter he starts and both of us halt
the silence screaming out an unearthly gestalt
now is the time to be more discerning with food
perhaps if i shower him with gifts like shaved wood
sprinkled liberally with nibbled bits of book
of inurbane authors undeserving a second look
might i escape his snares and prolong my fate
might i escape once more to the bosom of my mate

7/15/2010
Commentary and context at Litnet... http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?54410-moiaussi-(for-hawkman)



moiaussis reprise


allons mes enfants the struggle is nigh
our friends the bats his decree have espied
the hawkman has declared his enmity
theres no time nor reason nor plea nor rhyme
poetry for peace prose best for these times
sound the alarm see who else we may call
rally to my side who fear not death all
assemble strings and rocks and keen edged steels
then sharpen your claws your beaks your great stings
first cut the power then set the deadfalls
ticks hedgehogs rats wasps spiders and vixens
you are the ones to offer first sally
then well raise a call of ululation
keen is our resolve surprise our ally

7/20/2010 http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?54503-moiaussis-reprise

death of pious the hedgehog ( moiaussis best friend )


first to answer the call first to the fray
first to enter into that final peace
that to where hedgehogs spend eternity
was barely a test a trap less cunning
of wire and mesh construct a hidden spring
partially hidden with gingham bunting
perhaps greater hedgehogs have lived and died
but pious was dear to me and i cried
then with a wrath i knew not existed
twelve skunks i marshalled to the arena
alas our intelligence was faulty
nowhere was hawkman to mete out his worst
perhaps its best not to trust in a bat
in light they can barely make out a horse

7/20/2010 http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?54505-moiaussis-best-friend-death-of-pious-the-hedgehog

I really miss the contributors from that era: Hack/Bar/Hill/Prince/daffy/etc

[Danik 2016]

I laughed a lot about this superb dialogue between poems.
The antromorphism lends voice to a whole army of small creatures which marches
(with some problems of modus operandis though) against hawkman.
That´s what I call a real poetry contest
I got a bit confused with the title moiaussi. Does it refer to the historical battles between the English and the French or is it justthe name of an animal?
And yes, LitNet seems to have had an animated past.

[tailor STATELY]

Funny you should ask. You are the first to see an idea I started 1 1/2 years ago just to flesh out the story in the beginning for moiaussie (roughly French for Me Too... my French is as bad as my German):








how moiaussie got his name


it was in the spring that three orphaned mice from france came ashore after being adrift for days; sole survivors of a wrecked cargo vessel. they were brought before the forest king in lanchester, england - a badger named charles (after charles the great if legend be told), to be brought into his household to learn a trade.

king charles asked the eldest mouse, a strapping snow-white with one black spot in the shape of a elm leaf on his hind-quarter, what his name was, and he replied “brevard, sire”.

“moi aussi ! moi aussi !” said a smaller and younger mouse, a tawny brown with bright hazel eyes, in his best french; interrupting the sanctity of the royal hall.

“my, my” said the king. “we cannot have two mousie's named brevard can we. you, little one, shall be named moiaussie to amuse me, that we might not have confusion when brevard needs calling for.”

“brevard, you shall become a squire to sir kit of foxshire and learn the arts of war. moiaussi, you shall be a page to the royal librarian and learn the scholarly arts” said the king.

“and you little miss, speaking to moiaussi's twin sister, what is your name?”

“je m'appelle... i mean, my name is gabriella, sire, but brevard - i mean moiaussie, calls me ci-ci.”

“then ci-ci it is” laughed the king. “you shall be a hand maiden to the princesses of the realm; badger maidens one and all.”

and so brevard and moiaussi and ci-ci began their service to the king and prospered in a time of peace in the realm; moiaussie and brevard becoming fast friends, teaching each other the skills they learned in their tutelage.

10/13/2015

[Danik 2016]

I see. My French isn´t good but I read a little and what confused me, was this mouse called "me too". It´s a cute story, maybe you could make a poem of it to add to the others.

[tailor STATELY]

lol. Rather than metoo... moiaussie, which also sounds like mousy.

[Danik 2016]

I hadn´t noticed the similaritie of the sound: moiaussie=mousy.

[Danik 2016]

Yes/ No: "So perhaps the annoyance with anthropomorphism begins in the 19th century."
It seems that in art and literature antromorphism has always seemed more or less natural, be it from the picturing of gods with animal heads/and/or bodies to the stories where the animals talk and behave as humans as in TS´s texts.
The question that still bothers me: when we actually deal with animals (and to some extent with humans too) where do we draw a line between understanding/correctly interpreting their actions and projecting our own feelings into them?
I used to give my real cats a "voice" when I talked to them. How much of it was them, how much of it was me?

[YesNo]

It has been seven years? Those posts are just a few months before I started posting here, Tailor STATELY. That does use anthropomorphism but one doesn't really think animals do such things. People also refer to "muses", but I have only found a few who actually think muses exist (unless they see their girlfriends or boyfriends as the muse).

I think you are right, Danik, that anthropomorphism is a metaphoric way to understand animals. They are different as each of us are different. What they experience will be different. However, if one claims that animals are incapable of emotions, such as fear or love or despair (thinking of my chicken), and justify that by claiming that we don't want to anthropomorphize an animal it makes me wonder why we should assume animals don't have those emotions when we can see it on their faces even ignoring genetic and brain chemistry similarities? I think the way we view anthropomorphism today is an historical, cultural perspective on animals that might have originated in the 19th century, but with roots further back.

John Ruskin introduced the idea of "pathetic fallacy" in the 19th century: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathetic_fallacy Although this applied to the personification of nature more generally, I suspect it could be applied to animals. For this phrase to work in the 19th century there needed to be cultural change starting a few centuries earlier which would have restricted our empirical data to what we can individually observe or hear or taste. Other intuitive (also empirical) data would be dismissed as illusion.

[Danik 2016]

Thanks for the link on "pathetic fallacy" Yes/No. I noticed there are several denominations for anthropomorphism (I will have to look better into it.)I think they are two different things, saying that animals don´t have emotions and antromorphising the emotions of animals. Animals show their emotions, some of them more than others, but I think we often interpretate their behaviour and the emotions they show according to our own lights and thinking systems. We may be right or just parcially right.
For example: I had to put a flea collar on a cat of mine. The cat was so shocked(at least that´s what I interpretated) that she remained in the bedroom the whole afternoon. In the evening she came out, rolled on her back and showed herself receptive to belly rubbing. I understood that I had been "forgiven". But I couldn´t really know what went on in the cat´s head,
That´s the way I feel about the chicken episode. There may be different reasons for his behavior. For me it is still more difficult than for you to know as I wasn´t there. For example: if she had run away, could she have hidden herself somewhere? Could she have saved herself at all?
I think the only thing that matters today is that you don´t feel bad about the whole episode.

[YesNo]

What I am thinking of doing is writing about that dog-chicken encounter so I want to remember as much as possible and everything we discuss about animals in general helps that. I don't feel bad about it although I do feel responsible. Those chickens were given a longer life and they got to spend a few months outside on a free range. They were to be thrown into a furnace for sanitation purposes prior to the next batch of chicks arriving.

I agree that our empathy may be inaccurate even when it is reflecting other human beings let alone other species. However, I think our view toward animals today dates back to the 19th century as a dominate viewpoint. The seeds of that viewpoint originate around the time of Descartes viewing animals as individual machines. Anything said about animals can be said about humans. Then if one projects to future AI one can see the pattern complete where we don't anthropomorphize even our own species and our consciousness and emotions become illusions or completely determined by brain cells or genes. I think those cultural trends are coming to an end. So I am not interested in opposing them, but understanding them better to come up with a correction.

[Danik 2016]

I have the feeling that many of our cultural trends and habits are coming to an end, even some that are very dear to us. For once the world population is increasing enormously and future planings will have to care for the survival of as much people as possible. But I shudder when I think of a futur in the claws of AI whatever that might be able to achieve. The great question is whether the humans will have the maturity to handle the great issues.
Why were these chicken to be thown in a furnace?
To continue writing the story is a good idea, adding to the two haibuns on Fred in the short story thread.

[OrphanPip]

Acknowledging the sameness between humans and animals would not by necessity lead to human beings losing all consideration for the value of emotions. Recognizing that emotions are the effect of neurons and hormones doesn't make them any more illusory than thinking of emotions as a divine spark provided by God. If my emotions are mystical rather than material how do I trust they aren't being manipulated by demons or spirits? Why would I be less sure of the authenticity and value of my emotional experience just because I can recognize it's possible to alter my emotional state materially. Jeremy Bentham was one of the first people to articulate a philosophical defence of animals and he was a secular philosopher. Peter Singer is the most prominent contemporary advocate of animal rights and is an atheist. Recognizing animals as essentially the same as us on a biological level should lead us to the conclusion that animals deserve some level of equal consideration as us, not that we deserve to treat people as animals have been unjustly treated in the past. It's not materialist who say that the animals exist to serve human beings, that's a theological viewpoint.

[YesNo]

The farmer raised hens from chicks. When the birds were big enough they were either sent as meat or layers. A truck came to pick them up. We would clean the barn and he would sanitize it afterwards. Some hens escaped being placed on the truck that would have led them to their final destination. There were maybe a dozen of these birds. The farmer had to get rid of those birds and I suppose he could have eaten them himself, but he mentioned once, when I asked him, that he disposed of them in a furnace. He was making sure his barn was ready for the next batch of chicks.

It is true that our bodies individuate us and we can manipulate our bodies and get different emotional responses. It is like clicking on a different link or (to use an older metaphor) turning the radio's dial to a different station. The key question is whether our minds (including the minds of animals) are produced by our individual bodies or whether our consciousness is transformed through our bodies. The transformation rather than the production perspective works better as I see it. It also allows us to get past our individualism and make sense of psi phenomena, language as well as senses of community. Now a computer, because of its deterministic-random programming, is completely transparent, much like a radio. It doesn't have a mind. It cannot make a choice although it can use a model to select an optimal solution.

I agree that if there is a mind or mystical dimension to our emotions that cannot be reduced as something produced by and therefore reduced to neurons, genes or atoms, it opens up a whole dimension of demons, spirits, ghosts and gods. That is why an atheistic position, at some point, has to forget about negating gods and start creating those machines that would prove there are no gods. I am not saying that atheists don't respect animal rights and I don't trust modern theistic views of animals. We are all caught in our current cultural common sense whether we are theists or atheists. As human beings we can also transcend that common sense which I think is cracking.

[Danik 2016]

Acknowledging the sameness between humans and animals would not by necessity lead to human beings losing all consideration for the value of emotions. Recognizing that emotions are the effect of neurons and hormones doesn't make them any more illusory than thinking of emotions as a divine spark provided by God. If my emotions are mystical rather than material how do I trust they aren't being manipulated by demons or spirits? Why would I be less sure of the authenticity and value of my emotional experience just because I can recognize it's possible to alter my emotional state materially. Jeremy Bentham was one of the first people to articulate a philosophical defence of animals and he was a secular philosopher. Peter Singer is the most prominent contemporary advocate of animal rights and is an atheist. Recognizing animals as essentially the same as us on a biological level should lead us to the conclusion that animals deserve some level of equal consideration as us, not that we deserve to treat people as animals have been unjustly treated in the past. It's not materialist who say that the animals exist to serve human beings, that's a theological viewpoint.
The idea of distinguishing (not denying by any means) animal and human emotions is to give animals their due.
Any defense of animals is always highly welcome! :)

[Danik 2016]

The farmer raised hens from chicks. When the birds were big enough they were either sent as meat or layers. A truck came to pick them up. We would clean the barn and he would sanitize it afterwards. Some hens escaped being placed on the truck that would have led them to their final destination. There were maybe a dozen of these birds. The farmer had to get rid of those birds and I suppose he could have eaten them himself, but he mentioned once, when I asked him, that he disposed of them in a furnace. He was making sure his barn was ready for the next batch of chicks.

It is true that our bodies individuate us and we can manipulate our bodies and get different emotional responses. It is like clicking on a different link or (to use an older metaphor) turning the radio's dial to a different station. The key question is whether our minds (including the minds of animals) are produced by our individual bodies or whether our consciousness is transformed through our bodies. The transformation rather than the production perspective works better as I see it. It also allows us to get past our individualism and make sense of psi phenomena, language as well as senses of community. Now a computer, because of its deterministic-random programming, is completely transparent, much like a radio. It doesn't have a mind. It cannot make a choice although it can use a model to select an optimal solution.

I agree that if there is a mind or mystical dimension to our emotions that cannot be reduced as something produced by and therefore reduced to neurons, genes or atoms, it opens up a whole dimension of demons, spirits, ghosts and gods. That is why an atheistic position, at some point, has to forget about negating gods and start creating those machines that would prove there are no gods. I am not saying that atheists don't respect animal rights and I don't trust modern theistic views of animals. We are all caught in our current cultural common sense whether we are theists or atheists. As human beings we can also transcend that common sense which I think is cracking.
Sticking just to the animal question, as my sight is not so good today. Putting animals in a furnace is a horrible way to get rid of them. Couldn´t these chickens at least be distributed to the hungry?
Yesterday I looked for your two haibuns on Fred, but couldn´t find them.

[YesNo]

He gave four of them to me. I think if he had someone to give them to, he would. I never actually saw him burn them and I didn't ask him for details. I assume he killed them first but I don't even know that. He was not cruel. I don't think he enjoyed killing them, but I can see why he had to sanitize the barn and surrounding area.

Here the one called "Aurora": http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?85517-Short-fiction-thread&p=1331800&highlight=#post1331800
Here is "The Path to my Home": http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?85517-Short-fiction-thread&p=1330548&viewfull=1#post1330548

[Danik 2016]

Thanks, Yes/No. I didn´t remember about this second thread, I was looking for them in the other one. I was going to suggest that you linked them to this thread, because here they may have more visibility.

This chicken burning story is terrible, but I don´t see what I or you could do about it. I fear it is a common practice under farmers. The question is why produce so much chicken that they have to be exterminated afterwards? And that while there are a lot of people everywhere that suffer from hunger.
But my contact with chickens always was very reduced. When I was a teen my family lived in a smaller town which was rural in many aspects. In some of the houses, they had chicken and roosters and they lived in the garden or in the yard together with the dogs, the cats and whatever other animals were there. They were sort of part of the family. I think sometimes the family ate one of them. but they probably had them mostly because of the eggs.

[Danik 2016]

In Yes/No´s post above one can read the two first haibuns of his new story about a dog and four chickens.

Posting a poem by Richard Wilbur that came up in another thread.

The Death Of A Toad

[I]A toad the power mower caught,
Chewed and clipped of a leg, with a hobbling hop has got
To the garden verge, and sanctuaried him
Under the cineraria leaves, in the shade
Of the ashen and heartshaped leaves, in a dim,
Low, and a final glade.

The rare original heartsblood goes,
Spends in the earthen hide, in the folds and wizenings, flows
In the gutters of the banked and staring eyes. He lies
As still as if he would return to stone,
And soundlessly attending, dies
Toward some deep monotone,

Toward misted and ebullient seas
And cooling shores, toward lost Amphibia's emperies.
Day dwindles, drowning and at length is gone
In the wide and antique eyes, which still appear
To watch, across the castrate lawn,
The haggard daylight steer.

[I]Richard Wilbur

https://www.poemhunter.com/poem/the-death-of-a-toad/

http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?2379-name-association-game&p=1336175&viewfull=1#post1336175

[YesNo]

Wilbur's poem brings out the inhospitable nature of lawns for wildlife. Mowers "castrate" the lawn so it looks nice to us and in the process other creatures suffer as collateral damage. I am all in favor of minimal lawns leaving them to public places and parks. I also think sport hunting should be eliminated. Of course, that means farms will produce meat. So I might as well promote vegetarianism, which I prefer also.

There were thousands of chickens in that barn. That only a dozen might have missed getting into the truck seems like it could be viewed as a small transportation loss. I think you are right that chickens are often used mainly for eggs. At least that is what I've heard. I had no intention of eating mine. Eventually they would die. Mine eventually did, but sooner than I thought they would.

Here is a video about hatcheries. The farmer received chicks from these peoples, grew them, and then sent them to their final destination as either egg producers or meat: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GN5H9audCRQ

[Danik 2016]

I wish I was vegetarian, Yes/No. After this video it will be difficult to look at chicken meat again. Behind the world created for humans there is so much destruction, most of it unnecessary.
Here probably things are done in the same way. Sometimes the chicks are sold and donated to some people that dye them in several colours and then they are sold on the market or in the streets to people for thematic birthday partys for children, for example. The children loved them, as long they are cute, but the problem is when they grew up, because nobody wants hens and roosters running around in the drawing room.Then they probably abandon them somewhere or kill them. There may be videos about it, but I don´t have the courage to look for them.

[YesNo]

I almost didn't post the video, but it is part of that business in the US. I figure I gave those hens a better life than they would have had if they made it on that truck although their end may have been less traumatic if they stayed on the truck.

[Danik 2016]

It is good that you posted the video, one has to know this things. This thread is not only about the positive aspects of animal life.
When I had a twitter account there were lots of ativist videos about the bad treatment of animals, things you don´t imagine before you see them.
As for your chicken, they had a bad end but it is also true that they also harassed the dog until he hit back. Otherwise he probably would have left them alone or even become friendly with them. Anyway they had a life of their own.They certainly were better of as if they had been sent to a furnace or a grinder.

[tailor STATELY]

Cats... http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/03/marbled-cat-china-endangered-video/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+ng%2FNews%2FNews_Main+%28Nati onal+Geographic+News+-+Main%29


Dogs... http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/03/dog-behavior-study-treat/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+ng%2FNews%2FNews_Main+%28Nati onal+Geographic+News+-+Main%29

[Danik 2016]

Gorgeous animals, Tailor, halfway between the wild and the domestic cats.

Interesting dog experiment, it would help proving the thesis that animals plan their actions in advance and are able to deceive humans. But it is not so easy to know the animals motives for acting as they do.
I remember my cat guiding me to his empty bowl. He pushed me gently with his head if I was engrossed with something else and made sure I followed him to the bowl. I interpreted it as:"See, it is empty. Please do something about it"

[YesNo]

Dogs... http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/03/dog-behavior-study-treat/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+ng%2FNews%2FNews_Main+%28Nati onal+Geographic+News+-+Main%29

This one about dogs fits the behavior of the dog I had. It also corrects a misconception I had. I assumed the breed of the dog might have had something to do with Fred's abilities, but apparently the breed is not relevant. All dogs are pretty smart.

[Danik 2016]

Well, it seems the idea was to produce a cute video. I got the feeling the dogs got a bit nervous at the sound. They possibly noticed that the distress was shamed. I have the feeling that cats and dogs respond as much or more to the intonation of the human voice than to the actual words.

[YesNo]

Here's an account of an experiment done on a dog who knew when his master was returning home suggesting psi abilities between humans and dogs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aA5wAm2c01w

[Danik 2016]

It´s an interesting experiment, however I miss a very important information here. What is the usual time for Pam coming home? Some animals have a very good feeling for what we humans call time. Cats, for intance seem to have an inbuild allar clock which tells them when it is breakfast time.
What about this film? I´m sure you have seen it already. Iwanted to post the whole film, but You Tube is making all the former free versions of films unavailable. I suppose you have to pay now to watch them:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uP-ZtvjhOJc

The interesting fact here is that the dog seems not to realise that his owner has died.

[YesNo]

I have heard of Hachiko. I don't think the dog realized that the owner died, but just kept going to meet him. It shows that memory can last a long time in dogs.

In the experiment, Pam didn't know when she was coming home nor from where. It was not a routine schedule. The experimenter knew those things. The dog however sensed she was going to return remotely after the decision was made to return home. This is not saying that all dogs can do this or even want to do it. Not all humans have or develop unusual psychic abilities. It just shows the possibility for this to happen which makes it anecdotal in a sense but repeatable for that pair enough that the experiment could be conducted.

[Danik 2016]

The film about Hachiko is very moving. I watched it years ago. You are right about the memory in dogs. It accounts partly about the Lassie story too.

The experiment in the video shows that the dog is expecting Pam. My doubt is about knowing "remotely". As the real routine of Pam isn´t known, is it difficult to know if the dog really sensed something remotely or if she just came home after her usual time, when the dog would surely expect her.

[tailor STATELY]

"As the Deer"/ David Nevue (one of my current fave pianists)... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMOAmTtoa9A

[Danik 2016]

Loved it, Tailor. For me the music has a soothing quality that goes well with the innocence of deers.

[YesNo]

Nice music by David Neveu. It has a soothing quality.


The experiment in the video shows that the dog is expecting Pam. My doubt is about knowing "remotely". As the real routine of Pam isn´t known, is it difficult to know if the dog really sensed something remotely or if she just came home after her usual time, when the dog would surely expect her.

Pam was trying to find ways to fool the dog. At 0:53, there is this text: "I did not tell my parents where I was going or when I would be back." The dog still knew. This doesn't work for all dogs. If it did one would be able to use a mechanistic model to predict future behavior.

[Danik 2016]

Yes/No. You probably find me very stubborn, but the fact is I am really sceptic about the scientific value of this kind of videos (even admiting that the story is cute.). You have to basically rely on what they tell you and show you. I suppose it is not difficult to mount this kind of videos. It must be like filming animals for the cinema. For example, one in fact sees the dog waiting at the window or at the door. But how one could be sure that he is really waiting for Pam? He may be waiting for someone else or for a bowl of food. It may all be an illusion or it may all be true. But from a more scientific point of view there are not enough proofs.

[YesNo]

It could be all fake. One has to be careful about what people report, including what skeptics assert. If it doesn't convince you, that is fine.

[Danik 2016]

Ok, Yes/No.
I found this video. Couldn´t follow every single word because the lady speaks very quickly but the explanations are very clear.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqjdRAERWLc

[YesNo]

That is a good video. I will look at others in the series.

I like the Pyrrhonian skepticism position. In going further than the Academic skeptics, they not only doubted and thereby implied that knowledge was impossible, but they also doubted this "knowledge was impossible" knowledge. Knowledge might well be possible. Our views of reality might contain some truth. I assume they would not insist that we "prove" that we know what we know.

I kind of like the situation that we cannot know things "for sure". Our specific perspectives on reality suggest to me that this is what we should expect. We should expect to know things about reality, but not for sure. Pragmatically we accept what we want to accept as evidence.

To get back to the psi experiences with Pam's dog, Rupert Sheldrake did some experiments related to this phenomena. There are people who call themselves "skeptics" who doubt Sheldrake's results. There are other people (such as myself) who also call themselves "skeptics" who mistrust these skeptics and think of them as "pseudo-skeptics" or "dogmatic skeptics". Who's right? Given the Pyrrhonian skepticism no proof is possible. We just have to make a choice, which of the various positions we will accept and which reject.

Here is a video of Sheldrake answering a question about James Randi, one of the skeptics who doubts his work. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YB3SAD-gHTc

[Danik 2016]

I listened to the video and I also had a look at Rupert Sheldrake himself. Here is the Wikipedia article for who else might want to follow this discussion as I suppose you did your own research on him: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rupert_Sheldrake
I found out that the man has a very solid university background (Cambridge);on the other hand as a scientist he is a very controversial character. That in itself is not necessarily a problem. Quite a lot of the greatest scientists were criticized and some of them even pursued before they were accepted and celebrated by the mainstream. Ironically in the university where I studied 40 years ago they were addept of a strict US behaviorist pattern with variables control and so on. An experiment like the one with Jaitee wouldn´t be considered complete. One would have had to register his complete behavior story with Pam, and specially the coming home routine. But the scientific parameters are changing as everything else is. But I think it is still too early to say if this man is really inovating science (the dog experiment is only one of his inovations). Only time will tell.

[YesNo]

I think one needs to make sure experiments (of all kinds) are blinded: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blinded_experiment This is especially true given evidence of psi. I see the experiment with Jaytee as mainly documenting the phenomena, a case study, while the results could be reproduced. There isn't any theory being tested by this documentation. Sheldrake has a theory of morphogenic fields that I don't understand. Fields seem to me to be spatially constrained and require a numerical value at each point of space. Psi seems to transcend space.

I've been watching the Wireless Philosophy videos on epistemology that you showed me earlier. At the moment I suspect all the solutions trying to go beyond skepticism have some problem with them. They should be looking for the good that is in skepticism rather than trying to resolve it. There is this "brain in a vat" fantasy that comes from AI dreaming, however, if one looks at "social mood", that would behave in a similar way influencing our knowledge from outside of us as individuals. It is a better metaphor than Descartes' demon or brain in a vat for influences on what we claim to know, and is very likely real. I think a general solution around the problem of knowledge is not to put "knowledge" and "belief" against each other, but to use these as degrees of confidence on what we think is true where we are more confident of knowledge than beliefs and there being some falsity in each. The series of videos clearly explain the various positions.

[Danik 2016]

Blinded experiments are often used, to my knowledge to test new medicines. In this case, if the experiment was performed in the way we are told, it was blinded inasmuch as neither Pam nor Jaitee were informed, when Pam was coming home. I think, with psichological experiments you have to have some fixed parameters so that you can repeat the experiment and compare results. My concern with this idea of the animal sensing when his/her owner comes back is atributing certain powers to animals (or to humans for that matter) without being sure about it. As all things are handled today with both eyes directed to the media, these dogs would be taken to talk shows and similars to demonstrate their abilities.
I watched only one of these videos, in fact in didn´t know there were more. My idea was to find a didactic definition of skepticism for our discussion. I didn´t quite get this idea of "brain in a vat", the rest seemed easy to understand.
"I think a general solution around the problem of knowledge is not to put "knowledge" and "belief" against each other, but to use these as degrees of confidence on what we think is true where we are more confident of knowledge than beliefs and there being some falsity in each."
I think you are right there and that it is a very occidental dicotomy where "knowledge" stands for science and "belief" for religion. I hope there are systems of thought where both can exist together.
My skepticism goes mainly against people and methods who want to play with the good faith of other people.I am Brazilian and the patron of my astrological sign is St. Thomas.

[Danik 2016]

Funny impression just now when looking after many days at
http://nutiminn.is/kattarshians/
The cats were asleep as usual, but I couldn´t spot Thor (the yellow one)immediately. But then he woke up and put his head up looking as if in my direction and went to sleep again.

[YesNo]

Blinded experiments are often used, to my knowledge to test new medicines. In this case, if the experiment was performed in the way we are told, it was blinded inasmuch as neither Pam nor Jaitee were informed, when Pam was coming home. I think, with psichological experiments you have to have some fixed parameters so that you can repeat the experiment and compare results. My concern with this idea of the animal sensing when his/her owner comes back is atributing certain powers to animals (or to humans for that matter) without being sure about it. As all things are handled today with both eyes directed to the media, these dogs would be taken to talk shows and similars to demonstrate their abilities.
I watched only one of these videos, in fact in didn´t know there were more. My idea was to find a didactic definition of skepticism for our discussion. I didn´t quite get this idea of "brain in a vat", the rest seemed easy to understand.
"I think a general solution around the problem of knowledge is not to put "knowledge" and "belief" against each other, but to use these as degrees of confidence on what we think is true where we are more confident of knowledge than beliefs and there being some falsity in each."
I think you are right there and that it is a very occidental dicotomy where "knowledge" stands for science and "belief" for religion. I hope there are systems of thought where both can exist together.
My skepticism goes mainly against people and methods who want to play with the good faith of other people.I am Brazilian and the patron of my astrological sign is St. Thomas.

That dichotomy between "knowledge" (science) and "belief" (religion) is what bothers me also. The video prior to the one you linked to showed a difference between the two. One has to add onto belief stuff in order to get to knowledge. Although I disagree with that view, it is good to hear the position summarized in those videos with the key ideas expressed clearly.

[Danik 2016]

I just watched another of those videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xehTcQeqDWs
What I like about the two I watched it´s that they are very clear. Very complex issues appear in a simplified form.
I read Descartes famous demonstration way back but I can´t remember him mentioning the evil genius. The funny thing is that the way to overcome skepticism seems to be to revert to the every day experience of your senses.

[Danik 2016]

The most resistent animal of the world?

Meet the tardigrade:

http://www.sciencealert.com/new-study-finally-reveals-how-water-bears-have-become-so-damn-indestructible

[YesNo]

The tardigrade radiation protection is impressive.

They did mention that it might help us avoid radiation poisoning once we left the magnetosphere around earth. That is one of the main reasons to claim that we never sent humans to the moon.

I don't see any way for us to overcome skepticism. We might think we have achieved it as Descartes did or Russell but then problems arise. True for everyday experiences we can have near 100% confidence in what we experience, enough to allow us to function reliably, but for the big issues our knowledge is just a belief system we are deluded into thinking is more than a belief. I don't see anything wrong with that.

[Danik 2016]

If things go on as they do, what with inventing and using new methods for killing people, we all need to become tardigrades to survive. I remember the to do when the American astronauts arrived at the moon and I never had a special reason to doubt it, but if you do, who live nearer NASA one would have to look better into it.
I think skepticism is sound where it helps us to examine better dubious statements(wheter they are news, propaganda or cientific truths). It is not sound if it goes so far that it disturbs our every day reability on our senses.
I think one of the major chalenges to our thinking systems will happen, if we discover or are discovered by developed creatures of other planets, which have different thinking systems.
It is a pity that there are no posts on the "astronomy thread" any more.

[Dreamwoven]

I still follow Universe Today, learn quite a lot about recent developments.

[Danik 2016]

That´s nice Dreamwoven!

[YesNo]

I didn't doubt that human beings landed on the Moon until I read about it right here on Lit Net and then checked the sources. I am no expert, but the fact that we do not have bases on the Moon today but we are able to have space stations within the Earth's magnetosphere suggests to me that we did not go to the Moon in the early 1970s. We may also need the magnetosphere not only to protect us from radiation, but also to keep us sane. I may bring up that idea in the astronomy thread.

Skepticism breaks down when it becomes solipsism, a view that our individual existences is all that we know and all that we know can be gained only through physical senses. However, if one gets rid of that individualism, which is a form of reductionism, and includes other form of empirical evidence such as psi, skepticism becomes the only way that a spiritual view of reality is possible.

If we were able to download our subjectivity into individual propositions that can be logically manipulated then our subjectivity, our consciousness, is an epiphenomenon arising from unconscious matter. Skepticism, at least as I understand it, says this is impossible to achieve. The reason to attack skepticism is to find a way to justify materialism.

This gets a little far away from animals, so let me bring it back to them. If we view animals as machines without subjectivity, or subjectivity that can be reduced to an epiphenomenon on their machine bodies, we are part of a culture of materialism. The Cartesian view of reality turns animals into machines, but leaves us intact with something special. Then we observe that we also are animals. This is not a problem except that animals have been reduced to machines. Seeing ourselves as animals is then the same as seeing ourselves as machines. To complete the dehumanization our culture dreams of making machines to simulate us and demonstrate that our consciousness is insignificant, a mere epiphenomenon on top of the AI machine.

This is why animals are important. They are a way to correct this cultural change that has lead to our own dehumanization. At least that is how I see it at the moment.

[Danik 2016]

I have to think more about that.I´ll come back to it tomorrow. Anyway I´m glad we got back to animals.

[YesNo]

I do drift away in threads. Basically I say whatever comes to my mind. Isn't it amazing that there are so many different kinds of animals around us? We don't have to go to another planet to find strange life forms.

[Danik 2016]

I don´t know about the Moon landing, but today everything seems possible and the fake news weren´t invented in 2017.
I am not sure that I quite follow your argument on skepticism. I am a skeptical person, but in my country skepticism is self defense, apearances count much more than essences and specialy in political matters you have to be on the allert. But I also believe that those people who have a religious faith are happier than those that don´t.
I think the teory of behaviorism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behaviorism fits the idea that animals and humans are a kind of natural machine that acts by using its reflexes. They don´t believe in the existence of a soul. But I think every more developed creature can prove this theory wrong, although in therapy form it may be sucessful in some situations.
I think there are different forms of dehumanization. The idea of humans=machines would be one of them. Another one would be this massive loss of feelings and the growing indiference towards the fellow humans and the present and the future of humanity.
Although animals restore in me the belief in a better nature, I don´t think they are here necessarily to correct anything, least of all the deviations of humanity. They are here for themselves, because they were created, like the plants and the other wonders of nature.

[YesNo]

I agree with all of that.

I am looking at skepticism differently from the way it is normally presented here in the US. A "skeptic" here is usually someone who likes to disparage the beliefs of other people, but thinks he (and occasionally she) is rational in some mysterious way and above belief. They look for a knowledge that is superior to belief. My skepticism hopefully mirrors this back questioning the validity of such alleged knowledge.

To change the subject, there is a story about mice who refuse to accept food if they realize that by accepting it by pressing some button it will cause another mouse to receive pain. This shows empathy. I am looking for some video describing that experiment, but here is one about rats helping each other which also shows empathy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofpZoqD1_X0

[Danik 2016]

Interesting video. It shows that the rats help other rats or similar animals if they are familiar with tem they have good sense.

[Danik 2016]

This video is a very interesting lecture about animal morality including experiments.
It´s a bit long (about 16 minutes)

My link doesn´t work, please use the one Yes/No posted below.

[YesNo]

This video is a very interesting lecture about animal morality including experiments.
It´s a bit long (about 16 minutes)

https://www.ted.com/talks/frans_de_w...ls_have_morals

That was a great talk. I couldn't get to it from your link. Here it is again. https://www.ted.com/talks/frans_de_waal_do_animals_have_morals

The last experiment with the grapes and cucumbers was especially enjoyable.

Both of these links show that animals have empathy. That moves animals away from being machines and suggests that neither are we machines. Underlying these experiments, however, there is still an old belief that empathy is deterministically caused by the brain rather than the brain making it possible for us (and animals) to choose empathy in specific ways peculiar to each species.

Although the word "choice" is used, I wonder to what extent researchers believe that animals make choices. The next cultural breakthrough would be to recognize that these animals are making real choices, that is, their expressions of empathy are not completely explained by nature or by some assumed reduction of their behavior to either genes or neurons. Now that they have empathy, they need minimal free will to exercise the empathetic possibility their bodies permit.

[Danik 2016]

Thanks for correcting the link, I took it out as it doesn´t work.
The experiments are a curious combination of the standard behaviorist method (positive reinforcement of certain types of behavior by offering rewards) while testing empathy, cooperation, fairness, etc
"Underlying these experiments, however, there is still an old belief that empathy is deterministically caused by the brain rather than the brain making it possible for us (and animals) to choose empathy in specific ways peculiar to each species." I quite agree there, I think this is a result of the materialistic orientation which generated the behaviorist theory.
Later in the evening I´ll have a look in I can find experiments which follow other orientations.
One can´t forget also the dark side of these experiments become more evident with the advent of internet ans social media, which is to promote the cientists, whether they are real or fake, and their books.

[Danik 2016]

A TED talk with a different aproach:

https://www.ted.com/talks/carl_safina_what_are_animals_thinking_and_feeling

[YesNo]

The Carl Safina talk was very good. It is a different approach. The part where the whales knew that someone had died in the research boat made me think of the dog who knew his master was coming home.

Although we can use the similarity of neurons (coming from jellyfish) in all of these species to show that the individuals must experience something similar to what we do, focusing on neurons focuses on individuals with an assumption that that is all that exists. Neurons provide evidence that can be measured, but there is something that doesn't isolate us into individuals allowing the whales to know about that human death on the research boat.

Safina talked about consciousness and awareness as if they were the same thing. Many people do. This makes consciousness something an individual has (whether individual human or an individual in another species). It might be better to talk about awareness as something an individual has and consciousness something more global. As individuals we are aware of consciousness. What we are not aware of is not "unconscious", but just something we are not currently aware of. This would put our minds outside our bodies and our bodies being means to be aware of our minds.

It is hard to say what is real or fake science without being willing to question the speculations that one hears. Errors arise even in that questioning. One of the reasons I like to question whether we put human beings on the Moon is just to be willing to question what "scientists" tell me. I don't personally care if we put a human on the Moon. I also question medical doctors especially if they offer a prescribed drug which I could become addicted to or cause side-effects. After finding out recently that there exists relativistic gravitational theories (for example, Moffatt's) that don't need black holes or dark stuff, I stopped believing in that dark stuff. Am I following real or fake speculations? I don't know.

[Danik 2016]

The avoidance of the boats by the whales may have had a natural cause-or not (the skeptic again). Maybe they could smell the dead or another of their senses was more developed than our.

On the matter of the neurons and even the form of the brains I agree with you. Although there are similarities you can´t reduce an animal or a human to brain format or circunvolutions I think. But materialistic scientists need very concrete references. I suppose I am somewhere between behaviorism which doesn´t allow any soul at all and paranormality, which tends to look for paranormal explanations for everything that can´t easily explained. Which doesn´t mean that paranormal experiments don´t exist. You yourself have an open chanel there.

Some more about Carl Safina:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Safina I looked him up to see if he was a native. In Portuguese "consciência" can mean both consciousness and awareness. For me awareness would be more related to perception while conscious would be the contrary of unconscious in a Freudian and also in a moral sense.

It has really become more difficult to distinguish real science from rumours, but I believe real science will somehow be integrated in the existent scientific corpus while the rumours will disappear sooner or later.

[YesNo]

Unless we are experts in a particular field, we get science through secondary sources which I assume are reliable descriptions of the actual science plus speculations about what it means. I don't know if that is good or bad. There is only so much any of us can be experts in.

I don't think there is a Freudian "unconscious". There might be a Jungian "collective unconscious", but the only benefit with that term is the additional collective adjective. Of course, I am no expert in psychology. I am just trying to philosophically make it possible for psi to be grounded in some theory. This would involve a global consciousness. Awareness is consciousness restricted to an individual member of a species. If consciousness is larger than the individual, then psi can be grounded in this global consciousness. It would also allow animals to participate in it as well. Empirical evidence from the senses would then be expanded.

[Danik 2016]

The Freudian ¨unconscious¨ or the Jungian notion of "collective unconscious" are concepts which one might adopt or not IMO. I prefer them largely to the behaviorist or the cognitive models.
If you are interesting in reading more about them:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigmund_Freud

http://www.anselm.edu/homepage/dbanach/h-freud-lectures.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Jung

There is a simple experiment that ilustrates the idea of the Freudian unconscious:many people have the habit of absentmindedly summing or whistling a song. If one becomes aware of this, one notices that the text of the song or part of it is closely related to some emotion like fear, expectation or conflict one is experiencing at that moment.

[YesNo]

One of the good things about behaviorist approaches is that they limit some experiments to what can be measured. The bad thing about it is that limitation is then assumed to be part of the reality being measured rather than part of the measurement technique.

While looking at the Jung link, I saw this link to "collective unconscious": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_unconscious While Jung correctly goes beyond Freud's focus on the individual, he stays within the human species. The two anecdotes that we have discussed (1) the dog who knew when his master would return and (2) the whales who knew there was a dead human on board the research ship suggest this might not be adequate.

If we assume those two anecdotes are real, what sort of theory of consciousness would that require? According to the Wikipedia article "religious critics including Martin Buber accused Jung of wrongly placing psychology above transcendental factors in explaining human experience". I assume the "collective unconscious" would not be adequate to deal with those anecdotes nor with the religious objections. Of course, we don't have to make that assumption of reality about those anecdotes, but then we have to assume they can be explained away, which is nothing more than making another assumption about them. From a behaviorist standpoint, something occurred; data was collected.

[Danik 2016]

Neither Freud nor Jung included animals in their theories(Freud also has a collective focus in later works like Totem and Taboo, Civilization and Its Discontents,etc).Those authors merely turned up in the discussion because of the word "consciousness'.
As for both anedoctes, they would fit inthe same cathegory I think only if it was proved that the two behaviours have a paranormal reason. I am not sure that we have enough evidence in either of the cases. I am in favor for examining first the possibility of natural causes.In the case of the dog I already mentioned my doubts. In the one of the wales there is only a supposition. I think we still have to learn a lot about animals and ourselves.

[Danik 2016]

Posting another interesting little fellow:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gG6qfUdL1e8

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_flycatcher

[YesNo]

The royal flycatcher is a nice looking bird with the colorful crest.

[YesNo]

I was reading John Groppe's "The Raid of the Grackles and Other Poems" and wondered what a "grackle" was. Here's a video showing grackles and blue jays up close. It is amazing what one can do with a hidden camera. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3gpU9dA_Gw

[Danik 2016]

Lol. These grackles remaind me very much of our politicians, raiding all the time, while the blue jays humbly und fearfully take a tiny bit in between.:bawling:

And here comes family:

http://www.wikiaves.com/irauna-do-norte

The iraúna do norte is from the Quiscalus lugubris branch of the family. They live in the state of Amapá (far north of Brazil). When living near humans, they are very fond of the restaurant areas.

Here is the poem, almost ilustrative of the scene above:

http://indianahumanities.org/april-16-the-raid-of-the-grackles-by-john-d-groppe

[Danik 2016]

The Music-Lesson

A thrush alit on a young-leaved spray,
And, lightly clinging,
It rocked in its singing
As the rapturous notes rose loud and gay;
And with liquid shakes,
And trills and breaks,
Rippled though blossoming bough of May.

Like a ball of fluff, with a warm brown throat
And throbbing bosom,
'Mid the apple-blossom,
The new-fledged nestling sat learning by rote
To echo the song
So tender and strong,
As it feebly put in its frail little note.

O blissfullest lesson amid the green grove!
The low wind crispeth
The leaves, where lispeth
The shy little bird with its parent above;
Two voices that mingle
And make but a single
Hymn of rejoicing in praise of their love.
Mathilde Blind
https://www.poemhunter.com/poem/the-music-lesson/
at:
http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?2379-name-association-game&p=1336345&viewfull=1#post1336345

[YesNo]

The birds might need to train their young to sing. That would be a kind of cultural influence for them.

I just found out that there is a Kitten Academy near where I live in Illinois with a 24/7 YouTube feed similar to what is in Iceland: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPv9yKC76hE

[Danik 2016]

Thanks, Yes/No it´s very cute, but I didn´t like some cages I saw in the background. When I got in, it was feeding time so there was a lot of activity. An older cat was complaining energetically about something but no one took particular heed ot it.
I hope putting naturally cute animals into cute environments stimulates adoption.

[YesNo]

I noticed something what looked like cages as well. Maybe the cat's complaining will encourage someone to adopt it?

The library got a new book by Deepak Chopra and Menos Kafatos, "You are the universe". One thing bothered me in the conclusion that had to do with animals, page 218:


To discover where the evolutionary tidal wave is headed, we need only explore one of the most amazing human traits, shared so far as we know by no other living creature. We are aware of being aware.

How do we know that we are the only creatures who are aware that we are aware? How is it possible for one of those kittens to see something without the kittens being aware that they are seeing something?

[Danik 2016]

I just had a look again. The bigger cat is the mother of the smaller ones, or she thinks she is. She was licking some of the little ones but she doesn´t want them to suck her tits. On the same time she gets nervous wheen the humans in charge do the feeding. I remember my cat when she had her kittens mewewing me away, so I wouldn´t disturb them.
Lol. Only a feline Descartes would be able to answer your question.

Now, two of the kittens are sucking at the bigger one, while the others are playing. Everybody seems ok

[YesNo]

In general I like the Chopra/Kafatos book. Sometimes the way they say things doesn't make any sense or seems wrong to me. The cat might suspect the humans can't do as good of a job as she can. Or maybe there is some jealousy involved?

[Danik 2016]

I must have come across one of Chopras books before. I had a look at Google to remind me and found this Wikipedia article about him:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deepak_Chopra
and also his page with several articles:https://www.deepakchopra.com/

The kitten nursery is very lively. The mewing mother has a suit on probably because of surgery. She may be nervous because she is not able to feed her children. The other mother decided that two is company, three is one to many and four is a crowd. She seems to have feeding difficulties.
Difference between Kattarshian´s and kitten´s nursery:

http://nutiminn.is/kattarshians/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPv9yKC76hE

[YesNo]

Having academies look like ways to get pets homes, not just kittens. I wonder how effective they are?

I finished the Chopra book. He isn't as human-centric as I thought he was. Each species approaches the universe in their own way and participates in the same "cosmic consciousness" that we do. I agree with that. So my initial objection is no longer valid. He has a few things that still puzzle me: (1) He likes an interpretation of the "anthropic principle" that I don't understand. Generally I reject the anthropic principle since it implies that we are here because there were infinitely many universes that failed to create life like ours. I assume any multiverse that might exist has life like ours. (2) He seems to confuse random (uniformly distributed) chance from indeterminism which is also a sort of randomness. The indeterminism model can be interpreted as reality making "choices" which implies mind. (3) He goes beyond "wave" and "particle", and I would agree with that, but then continues talking in terms of them. He does point out a continual creation from the quantum vacuum which I agree with. (4) He claims general relativity predicts everything perfectly and then notes that no one has found dark matter and dark energy yet which implies general relativity doesn't predict everything very well.

[Danik 2016]

I think they are more effective anyway than some of the dungeons where the animals are put. Apropos, the cages are the bedroom and it seems that the cats can get in and out at free will.
That he isn´t so human-centric is undestandable as he is from India, where the animals are seen as gods. I like this idea of a cosmic conscience.I think that as yet all theories about life in other universes still exist on a very hypothetical basis. But maybe we are on the brink of new discoveries in this area. There would be also the question: if there are more advanced forms of life than there are on earth, will they want to be discovered by us? I skip the part of Physics which I don´t understand do well, but I take it that Chopra borrowed several concepts from it to build his theory.

[YesNo]

One of the reasons I hope life is found on other planets is that it would void the anthropic principle, or at least make it irrelevant when it comes to life. If life is found elsewhere, then our existence is not an extremely lucky event needing an entire universe of planets failing to have life to explain it. We would have to look deeper for an explanation than chance which basically says there is no explanation.

Anyway, I found this yesterday about crows killing another crow: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7liZdySa-IU

There were also crow funerals but this looked odder to me.

[tailor STATELY]

"House Of Seven Cats", by Patrick Lee Hadley/Album: "Egypticat"; (just heard (again) on my favorite DTV music station)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9VMTMHo2lw

[Danik 2016]

Thanks, Tailor, I´ll have to look for it, this video is not available here.

I didn´t find it but I found this curiosity. You both can try it on your furry family members if you didn´t do it already.

http://time.com/4538773/man-makes-music-for-cats/

[Danik 2016]

One of the reasons I hope life is found on other planets is that it would void the anthropic principle, or at least make it irrelevant when it comes to life. If life is found elsewhere, then our existence is not an extremely lucky event needing an entire universe of planets failing to have life to explain it. We would have to look deeper for an explanation than chance which basically says there is no explanation.


Anyway, I found this yesterday about crows killing another crow: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7liZdySa-IU

There were also crow funerals but this looked odder to me.

I managed to watch only the beginning of the video, and that not because of my conjuntivitis, Yes/ No. I got a feeling of horror, it is too similar to human cruelty and covardice. Anyway one doesn´t know what happened before. Animals usually have a reason for acting the way they do.

"One of the reasons I hope life is found on other planets is that it would void the anthropic principle, or at least make it irrelevant when it comes to life. If life is found elsewhere, then our existence is not an extremely lucky event needing an entire universe of planets failing to have life to explain it. We would have to look deeper for an explanation than chance which basically says there is no explanation."

I think humans are very creative in antropocentric explanations.They change according to scientific evidence.Some of them:
1-The medieval belief that the earth was the centre of the solar system-Because humans inhabited it of course.
2-The idea that the whole earth, with everything that is on it, was created for the sole benefit of man.
3-And now the anthropic principle-Other planets are just failed experiments in getting us a
snug and confortable planet.
Just wondering who will be the next Galileo.

[YesNo]

I hope you can cure the conjunctivitis, Danik. There is no need to finish the video. The first few seconds make the point clear.

The anthropic principle tries to argue that our presence here is an accident. For that accident to happen there must be a lot of failures. The first two views take a privileged view toward humans (even at the expense of other species). The anthropic principle denies that privilege position by claiming we are here only through chance. I think there must be a better explanation for our being here than chance that would include a better explanation for other species being here as well.

[Danik 2016]

Thanks, Yes/No. I think I got the anthropic principle wrong, then. I didn´t get the part of being here by chance. I shall have to look better into it. I hope there is a better explanation for life on earth.

Going in the opposite direction of the crow video here is a video DW posted on:
http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?85648-Canada-Goose&p=1337348&viewfull=1#post1337348

[YesNo]

Wayne Potts says birds are "anticipating" moves rather than "following others" because that would allow for better reaction time. That's an interesting idea. It seems like a more communal or group approach.

[Danik 2016]

Animal behaviour:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KS1Y9t5w2Q

Cat in the background observing open faucet concurrent

[YesNo]

I liked that snake yawn and the way those lizards ate things.

[tailor STATELY]

http://digg.com/video/cat-ring-bells-food?utm_source=digg&utm_medium=email

[Danik 2016]

I thought it was much more difficult to condition cats. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning
Interesting how the dark cat changes the bell during the experiment to the one meant for the other cat.

[YesNo]

It looks like I could teach my cat to do tricks.

[Danik 2016]

Of course it depends on the cat. Most cats I think would do a lot to get their favorite treat. But I don´t like these animal conditioning games. When I studied Psychologi much time ago we had to condition mice. I refused to give them shocks.

[Danik 2016]

It´s not beautiful to look at, but it´s resistent and long lived. Meet the Naked mole-rat:
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/jul/14/naked-mole-rat-cancer-research

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5DcOEzW1wA

[YesNo]

I have never heard of naked mole rats before. Their communal behavior is interesting.

I am glad to hear you did not give those mice electric shocks.

I have no intention of trying to condition our cat to do anything. She might be trying to condition me, but we probably both have better things to do.

[Danik 2016]

Neither did I.

I didn´t think seriously you would. As for the cat, she might eventually consult her manual on humans to see how she could make you improve her confort (if that is at all possible!).:wink5:

[Danik 2016]

double post

[Danik 2016]

Ants´ rescue of injured member:
http://www.livescience.com/58658-ants-save-injured-brothers-video.html

[YesNo]

That is good to know about ants. Selfless behavior benefits the entire community.

[tailor STATELY]

I clipped this from a newspaper years ago, but copied this off the net; my favorite: 9805

[Danik 2016]

Lol!At least here the birds are pals.

[YesNo]

That's a nice one about those buzzards. It makes me wonder what animals think of us.

[Danik 2016]

Other people also aske themselves this question and in the net. I just found this:

https://www.quora.com/What-do-you-think-animals-think-of-us-humans

I remember my cat using a lot of tail language. When he looked satisfied his tail danced lightly.
When he got nervous or irritated his tail flogged the ground like a whip.

[YesNo]

I didn't know that part about a cat's tail curling. I think the cat we have likes us.

[Danik 2016]

She certainly does!

[Danik 2016]

Islands dominated by an animal species. I was astonished about the quantity of islands.

http://www.livescience.com/58707-islands-ruled-by-animals.html

[YesNo]

The Earth as an island of sorts would be dominated by us. It occurred to me that our species is rather young, 30 to 200 thousand years. I figure we have hundreds of millions of years ahead of us, maybe billions if we can keep the Earth in the habitable zone of the Sun. It is like a climax forest where a few species of trees dominate indefinitely.

[Danik 2016]

I would add, ...and if our species is able to keep itself out of mischief.

[YesNo]

You're right. We have to be careful since we don't know what damage we are causing. We only think we do.

I was reading some new age guru who said if we did not do something or other, our species would go extinct. Maybe. It used to be if we did not do something or other, we would go to hell.

[Danik 2016]

I didn´t know what the guru said but right now our species could put some more effort in living in harmony.

[YesNo]

I agree. We won't get very far without harmony.

[Danik 2016]

Snow leopards relaxing!

http://www.livescience.com/58878-wild-snow-leopards-snuggle-on-camera-video.html

[YesNo]

They are like cats playing together.

[Danik 2016]

They don´t feel menaced. They are among themselves and didn´t notice or didn´t mind the camera.

[YesNo]

I wonder if animals have "shared intentionality"? Reading Haidt ("The Righteous Mind") he seems to think only humans have that, but I wonder. This would be like two animals communicating to do something together. It seems crows showed such shared intentionality. It would be like one animal holding down the branch of a tree so that another animal can gather fruit that they both can eat and not fight over afterwards. Or if two monkeys together carried something.

[YesNo]

I think those crows showed shared intentionality when they grouped together to attack the researchers.

[Danik 2016]

I believe they have it too. This concept seems to mean that a member of a certain species is able to act together with one or more companions. There are several examples. I remember for example some solidarity tests with monkeys and elephant way back in this thread.

[YesNo]

Haidt's Moral Foundation Theory is very good when he stays close to his experimental evidence which is mainly tests on human subjects including use of fMRI data. His research is able to isolate six innate moral foundations that make sense once he describes them as well as noting that reason is primarily used to rationalize positions. When he tries to justify that "innateness" his evolutionary theory seems controversial. He seems to separate humans from other animals too much, but certainly we have been very successful and that needs some explanation.

[Danik 2016]

I looked him up. A psychology of morals is something new for me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Haidt

A rather curious dissertation subject. Part of the research was done here. I just had a look but didn´t read it yet.

http://people.stern.nyu.edu/jhaidt/articles/haidt.1992.dissertation.pub001b.pdf

[Danik 2016]

Posting Unesco site about Fernando de Noronha-area of turtle and other animals preservation:

http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1000/gallery/

[YesNo]

Those were beautiful photographs in the gallery.

Thanks for the links on Haidt. I finished the book and I think it is more political posturing than I originally expected.

[Danik 2016]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbina_(genus)

Please feel free to watch in mute mood if you prefer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVVIniPMnSE

[YesNo]

Doves are such peaceful-looking birds.

[Danik 2016]

Yes, I wasn´t sure if they were doves though. They have another name. The urban doves we find around here are more hungry than peaceful. They are much abused but they bring life into this gray city.

[YesNo]

They could be pigeons: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbidae

I thought the Columbina was "dove", but I am just guessing.

[Danik 2016]

I looked up the diferences between the "pombas" (the doves) and the "rolinhas", they all belong to the waster family of the Columbidae.The page only opens in Portuguese, but maybe you get it in English because of your location:
http://en.wikiaves.com//doku.php?&&&id=aves_do_planalto_central:pombas_e_rolinhas

[YesNo]

I didn't realize doves and pigeons are very similar birds until you mentioned them. Doves make me think of "peace" and pigeons, well, I have heard them described as "flying rats". I haven't heard the name "rolinhas" before, but Google was able to translate the page clearly enough.

[Danik 2016]

Me neither. I still can´t tell the pigeons from the doves. The "rolinhas" seem to be smaller and I don´t know if they live in cities.
My dentist called the doves "flying rats" on account of the illnesses they transmit. The doves don´t care what they are called. As long as there is enough food and they can flock together, they seem to enjoy their life. And São Paulo would be so much grayer and stonier without them.

[YesNo]

Doves (or pigeons) seem to fit cities like seagulls fit beaches. It would be less pleasant without them.

[Danik 2016]

Koalas

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/mammals/k/koala/

[YesNo]

Those koalas are cute whether they are bears or not.

[Danik 2016]

I agreewith your both last posts Yes/No. Am in fact looking for a new theme.
Interesting article.
Dogs don´t have a bad memory, if one remembers that the police uses them to find hidden drugs.

http://www.livescience.com/58602-do-cats-dogs-have-long-term-memories.html

[YesNo]

It doesn't surprise me that animals have memories because the brain would be a way for animals to access memories. I wonder where the content of that memory lies. I don't think it's in the brain. Plants also have memory. Here's an example: http://www.sci-news.com/biology/science-mimosa-plants-memory-01695.html I heard about this from Stefano Mancuso and Alessandra Viola's "Brilliant Green".

[Danik 2016]

Amazing, Yes/No! I tried to remember if I know that "prude" Mimosa. Am going to research on it later.
I found this article on cat´s brains. There are more, but the connection at present is not so good:
http://www.petful.com/behaviors/cat-brain-compared-human-brain/
And here is one on dog´s brains:
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/dog-brains-divide-language-tasks-much-humans-do
And on both:
https://braindecoder.com/post/how-does-your-cat-dog-brain-compare-to-yours-1141211520

[YesNo]

The whiskers on cats and the simulation of a cat's brain sound interesting. That dogs and cats understand what we say to them makes sense. Plants may also understand us as well.

[Danik 2016]

Cat´s and dog´s seem to understand what one says to them, and also when one talks about them. I just looked the "Mimosa pudica". I found a detailed account of the experiment in Portuguese and also the original article but one has to pay to read it.

[YesNo]

I don't think the current research is worth reading unless one wants to continue that research. According to Mancuso and Viola ("Brilliant Green", page 68) this knowledge about mimosa pudica was first discovered by Lamarck and his collaborator Augustin Pyramus de Candolle around the 1800's. Augustin put these plants on a cart at Lamarck's request and pulled them around the streets of Paris. Initially they contracted, but once they realized the bumpy ride did not threaten them, they relaxed and, as I would put it, enjoyed it.

[Danik 2016]

So, in fact there is nothing new about it. Plants it seems have there sense of security too.

[YesNo]

It's not new, but the significance of that early knowledge hasn't sunk in. Basically, plants can learn and make choices.

[Danik 2016]

It´s not so easy for most people to communicate with plants as with animals. So signs that are less explicit as the leaves closing of the mimosa, pass unnoticed.

[YesNo]

They are very different. One is rooted and the other is mobile. One you can eat part of it and it grows back. The other is not so fortunate.

[Danik 2016]

Some unusual animal mothers:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/05/animals-mothers-pandas-spiders-octopus/

[YesNo]

The story of the octopus mother dying after her young hatched was touching. The Meerkats show animals teaching and learning.

[tailor STATELY]

Narwhals... http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/05/drone-footage-narwhal-tusk-mystery/

[Danik 2016]

Very interesting article, Tailor. I never had hear about tje narwhals before.

[YesNo]

I had not seen narwhals before either. The technique of using drone cameras seems to be useful. So there are unicorns in the sea!

[Danik 2016]

"For American parents, breast-feeding past a year or two tends to be a fraught topic. Orangutan mamas, on the other hand, are in it for the long haul: New research finds that orangutan babies nurse for eight years or more."

http://www.livescience.com/59145-orangutans-nurse-babies-for-8-years.html

[tailor STATELY]

Baby Chameleons... http://digg.com/2017/chameleons-blue-handful?utm_source=digg&utm_medium=email