How to be a man - instructive books

[Chief Bromden]

New poster here. Hello!

I have a godson in Australia, 12,000 miles from my home in the UK. Needless to say, providing moral guidance over such a large distance is something of a challenge, and I had the idea of collecting together writings: passages, excerpts or whole novels toward which I could direct him.

My jumping off point was Rudyard Kipling's 'If'. Perhaps it would be rather daunting to live up to those standards, and undoubtedly the aspirational values therein are neither exhaustive nor especially contemporary, so I wondered if you well-read and knowledgeable folk could recommend other poems, novels or any fiction - character descriptions for instance - which might be added to the 'how to be a man theme' of 'If' to form a sort of scrap book.

I should imagine that any such collection may perhaps be better captured by the description how to be a good person, but given my godson is indeed my godson, and in line with the theme of 'If', I quite like the man-focus angle. However, non gender-specific character building or morally instructive examples also very welcome!

Sorry to be so broad. Until I have a better idea of what's out there, I'm not sure what would be suitable. Fiction only? Philosophy? Self-help? I guess I'm hoping for beautiful writing that is also inspiring and potentially character-building and thus fits the morally instructive angle.

I forgot to mention, my godson is twelve, but I envision this either as an ongoing effort or a one off resource that can be drawn upon as he grows up, so no need to try to be age-specific.

With thanks in anticipation. I'll try to reply to any responses but I can't be online very frequently due to work and family, so apologies in advance for any delayed replies.

CB

[Pompey Bum]

Welcome to the site, CB. You may wish to send your godson C.S. Lewis' The Screwtape Letters. It's good for a 12 year old and may get him interested in Lewis' more mature works.

[Chief Bromden]

Thanks, Pompey Bum. I'll check that out.

CB

[prendrelemick]

To be honest I can hardly think of a thing. There are plenty of inspirational literature for girls - about the life of teenage girls or with teenage girl protagonists. I'm not saying that boys can't read and enjoy them, but that is not what you asked for.

There are books I still remember from reading at twelve. The Silver Sword, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, The Hobbit, White Fang, Ivanhoe, Treasure Island, Swallows and Amazons. I don't know how instructive they were, but "The Silver Sword" affected me greatly for at least a week..

Kipling's "Jungle Book" could be the kind of thing you are after - from the same author as "If", imbued with his values for an individual.

C.S. Lewis' Narnia books are Christian in their outlook and would be a suitable gift from a God parent. They are also a good read for any age.

But perhaps we are overlooking the obvious - Has he read the Harry Potter books yet? Ok they are about magic and wizards but they have a positive moral message and he will almost certainly enjoy them.


Edit:some shorter pieces.

Polonius' advice to his son from " Hamlet"
Invictus by William Ernest Henley. is worth a look
Maya Angelou's I still rise is a favourite one of mine.
"Desiderata" by Max Ehrmann. was very popular in the 80s

[Chief Bromden]

Thanks Prendrelemick, this is really very useful indeed. In particular I think the specific shorter pieces fit the idea of what I was after. I was hoping to be able to share a variety of excerpts with my God son, and then he (and his parents) can decide whether to read the whole book. I thought including passages from books for adults might also be good, and if they're currently beyond him then he can come to them in time. I'll check out all your suggestions anyway.

I'm not actually a Christian, despite being a God parent but it doesn't bother me or my God son's parents obviously. I was sort of interested in whether and how literature can inform morality or good character rather than (or possibly in addition to) religious texts.

Thanks again anyway!

CB

[Aylinn]

Maybe reading Never Ending Story by Michael Ende would be a good idea?

[Clopin]

That one poem by evil colonialist man, Rudyard Kipling. Maybe his kid's books are good for that too, actually. I've never read The Jungle Book, but I remember Just So Stories being alright.

[Pompey Bum]

"Then something began to hurt Mowgli inside him, as he had never been hurt in his life before, and he caught his breath and sobbed, and the tears ran down his face.

"What is it? What is it?" he said. "I do not wish to leave the jungle, and I do not know what this is. Am I dying, Bagheera?"

"No, Little Brother. That is only tears such as men use," said Bagheera. "Now I know thou art a man, and a man's cub no longer. The jungle is shut indeed to thee henceforward. Let them fall, Mowgli. They are only tears." So Mowgli sat and cried as though his heart would break; and he had never cried in all his life before.

"Now," he said, "I will go to men."

--Rudyard Kipling, The Jungle Book.

[Jackson Richardson]

but I remember Just So Stories being alright.

Just read The Cat that Walked by Himself. Kipling may not have known much about men, but he sure had the right idea about cats.

[Vota]

Since your godson is twelve, I would recommend he read The Chronicles of Narnia by C.S. Lewis. There are Christian values within the books, as well as symbolism, but whether or not you believe in or even like religion, this series is both entertaining and wholesome. Also, he would be unlikely to even spot the Christian influences within the book, but if he did mention noticing them he would be ahead of the curve.

After that I would recommend Robinson Crusoe because it is a story about a man using his intellect in order to overcome all obstacles in an inhospitable environment.

It is hard for me to recommend any other literature because I do not know your godson's reading ability or maturity level.

I will throw my vote in for The Jungle Book as well.

[Red Terror]

Steal this Book by Abbie Hoffman

https://peopledotcom.files.wordpress.com/2016/09/5_1_89_750x1000.jpg?w=450

http://izquotes.com/quotes-pictures/quote-during-the-vietnam-war-abbie-hoffman-announced-that-the-new-high-was-banana-peels-taken-rectally-kurt-vonnegut-276006.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/7d/b9/4b/7db94b8f0a769e308b709742526699cf.jpg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcOTZeZ3_40

[Chief Bromden]

Thanks Aylinn, Clopin, Pompey Bum (again), Jackson, Vota and Red Terror. I'll take a look at all these, including the Abbie Hoffman book - I don't want to spoon feed my Godson a pre-packaged version of morality, but rather a selection of interesting influences on which he can draw. I may have set myself quite a task! Your help is much appreciated.

What about adult books that give a steer on how to live, a version of morality or include characters who are exemplars of a type of manhood?

[Chief Bromden]

...Although, glancing at the index of the Abbie Hoffman book does rather challenge my "selection of interesting influences on which he can draw": "Shoplifting. Panhandling. Knife-fighting. Handguns. Shotguns. Rifles. Molotov cocktails. Pipe bombs". Have some of that, 12-year-old Godson! I suspect I may have been whooshed. Mind you, recent events do seem to suggest that we're firmly on the road to a post-apocalyptic dystopia, in which case there's some pretty useful stuff in there.

[Danik 2016]

The original is by the German author Erich Kästner and it has enchanted several generations of young people.

You can take alook at it first at:

https://archive.org/details/EmilAndTheDetectives

[Pompey Bum]

Yes, definitely give Abbie Hoffman a miss and consider the source accordingly. A modern novel called Where the Red Fern Grows has a good reputation for young male readers. I've never read it so I can't recommend it directly, but you may want to check it out.

[desiresjab]

It all depends on the kind of man. There is the Wordsworth kind of man who fainted at his first glimpse of the Alps, and there is the Jack London kind of man who slogged around gold camps and watched bear baiting and dog fights. There is the Thoreau kind of man to whom principle is a first principle, and there is the Gide kind of man to whom principles first are cheap toys to invert or be rough with. I might say some John Steinbeck. He is approachable by a wide range of readers in age, and his sense in moral situations is very good.

[Red Terror]

...Although, glancing at the index of the Abbie Hoffman book does rather challenge my "selection of interesting influences on which he can draw": "Shoplifting. Panhandling. Knife-fighting. Handguns. Shotguns. Rifles. Molotov cocktails. Pipe bombs". Have some of that, 12-year-old Godson! I suspect I may have been whooshed. Mind you, recent events do seem to suggest that we're firmly on the road to a post-apocalyptic dystopia, in which case there's some pretty useful stuff in there.

Don't worry about the haters.

“To steal from a brother or sister is evil. To not steal from the institutions that are the pillars of the Pig Empire is equally immoral.”
― Abbie Hoffman, Steal This Book

"Those ridiculous free introductory or subscription type letters that you get in the mail often have a postage-guaranteed-return-postcard for your convenience. The next one you get, paste it on a brick and drop it in the mailbox. The company is required by law to pay the postage. You can also get rid of all your garbage this way." Ibid

All you kiddies remember to lay off the needle drugs, the only dope worth shooting is [President] Richard Nixon. Ibid


http://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/steal-this-movie-2000

https://www.amazon.com/Soon-Be-Major-Motion-Picture/dp/0399505032/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1480440495&sr=1-1&keywords=soon+to+be+a+motion+picture

[Chief Bromden]

Thanks desiresjab. Your point gets to the nub of what I'd like to provide - a variety of examples of the different ways you can be a man. There's no one right answer and that's not what I'd be seeking to provide to my God son. If some of the examples are beautifully written or inspiring then so much the better; perhaps instilling an enjoyment of literature is as important as the moral instruction element.

While recognising that 'how to be a man' is not something that one can capture in a nutshell very easily (and feel free to tell me to go off and do some reading myself to find what I need - I intend to do so), can you point me in the direction of any specific passages of Wordsworth, Jack London, Gide, Thoreau or Steinbeck that fit this purpose?

CB.

[Whifflingpin]

"The Wizard of Earthsea," and indeed the whole of Ursula Le Guin's Earthsea quintet, meet all the criteria that you have mentioned, in a moderately stated fantasy setting.
Peter Dickinson has written some classic books that might suit, but, if the other world of Earthsea does not appeal, then the very modern world of "AK" could be appropriate.

[Chief Bromden]

Thanks, Whifflingpin. I read the Earthsea books when I was young, thought sadly I remember little about them except that I enjoyed them very much. Come to think of it, perhaps I read the Wizard of Earthsea and then failed to track down the others. I shall go back to it and them as part of this project.

What's "the very modern world of "AK""?

CB.

[Whifflingpin]

"AK" is the title of the book (from AK47, the world's folk weapon of choice for some decades.) The setting is a modern state, African as it happens, but could be anywhere that consensus politics has broken down, or failed to materialise at all. It could be Ur, or it could be post-Brexit England.

[Chief Bromden]

Ah, sorry. Yes, I'm with you now. Looks interesting. I fear I'm going to be on children's and young adult fiction for a while as part of this project.

CB.

[tir_na_nog]

Definitely second the Narnia books and Screwtape.

Swiss Family Robinson would be another - it's about a family shipwrecked on an island who have to use their natural ingenuity and solidarity to survive. Would fit the 'how to be a man' thing very well, actually - there's a lot on practical skills as well as education. My favourite book growing up.

White Fang (Jack London), Rafael Sabatini's The Prisoner of Zenda (most of his books actually), John Buchan's The 39 Steps and sequels, Rosemary Sutcliff's The Eagle of the Ninth series and The Mark of the Horse Lord, Kidnapped (Robert Louis Stevenson), The Hobbit & Lord of the Rings, Toby Alone and the sequel Toby and the Secrets of the Tree, My Side of the Mountain (?), Farmer Boy by Laura Ingalls Wilder, Jules Verne's Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea . . . all those would probably be suitable.

Louis MacNeice's Prayer Before Birth might be to your taste as well. Sea Fever and Cargoes (John Masefield), Ithaka, maybe Code Poem For the French Resistance, Do Not Stand at My Grave and Weep, ohhhh and definitely Brumana by James Elroy Flecker.

There are lots more that I could recommend if needed. It's lovely to see someone taking the title of Godfather seriously.

[Chief Bromden]

Great suggestions, tir na nog, thank you.

I'm not yet sure what form this 'scrap book of instructive literature for a boy' will take (that's another aspect of the project to ponder), but I'll enjoy delving in to the possibilities for inclusion.

CB

[Ecurb]

One question worth considering: is literature best served by the moral purposes you envision? It wasn't so long ago that fiction was thought to be a pleasant diversion (like TV shows or movies), and moral instruction was discovered in books of sermons or philosophy. Wordsworth and Keats were read as a guilty pleasure, while Virgil and Homer (in the original) were beaten into scholars with a switch.

One problem with modern English literature curricula is that they suggest that reading certain novels is a moral and educational duty (like reading Greek and Latin used to be). At least most of these books are reasonably good literature, however our educational approach may alienate young readers. Unfortunately, this approach also spawns unreadable tripe -- non-fictional guides to living masquerading under the guise of fiction. Guides to life, like "The Bridges of Madison County", are constructed with minimal plot and character, and presented to the reading public as literature. Even our friend from the other thread, Leo Tolstoy, unrepentant didact that he was, would disapprove.

Cultivating a taste for literature will serve a twelve year old boy better through the years than reading "If" over and over again. (I love Kipling, but think "If" represents one of his worst poems, although many 12 year olds like it). Nor need he read "serious" literature in order to cultivate this taste. Children love adventure and romance, and cultivating that love will lead to both their moral development, and their evolving literary tastes. Children also love peanut butter and pizza -- as their tastes mature, they may develop a taste for wine and cheese, but there's no reason to feed them wine and cheese in their youth.

This is not to say, good chief, that your project is ill advised. Send your young friend literature you think he will enjoy, first and foremost, and he will stumble upon the moral instruction. Send him moral instruction, and he will shy away from literature. (The Jungle Books are better than "If" as both literature and moral instruction, in my opinion. Also, "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" is a good novel, written by my deceased neighbor and donating your LItnet name, although it might be more appropriate for a 17-year-old.)

[Chief Bromden]

Thanks Ecurb. That's a very important and tricky question; whether literature can or should serve the purpose of assisting moral development is really quite relevant to my efforts here. It's also something that psychologists and philosophers could probably help me to consider in much detail as my original idea gets quietly shelved. I already started to ponder what fills the void left by religion as society gradually transitions toward atheism. Surely literature is one candidate to contribute - even if its original purpose was purely entertainment - which would make choice of reading matter rather important as a young person moves beyond the influence of family and school.

Which is maybe where I can help my Godson who is ten thousand miles away. Ultimately, I think I'd quite like to simply suggest a reading list of good books, but in seeking to fashion that idea into a suitable gift (i.e some sort of physical scrapbook with excerpts rather than the occasional Amazon delivery with a note saying 'oi, Godson, this is a good book'), and in the context of my responsibility for my Godson's moral upbringing, the theme I happened upon is 'how to be a (good) man'. A variety of recommended writings that collectively offer a few different ways of thinking about right and wrong and being a man, be they swashbuckling adventures or rather more prescriptive morality poems such as 'if', is the aim. I'll probably avoid non-fictional guides to living masquerading under the guise of fiction. Paul Coehlo is out, as is Ayn Rand, and I'll endeavour to avoid my efforts coming across as too didactic. You're right that that would be a sure way to put a young reader off.

On the subject of "If", I like it. Though it is perhaps a bit preoccupied with stoicism, and I can't quite get my head around:

"If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss".

That doesn't sit well with my attitude to risk. Hang on, you're gambling everything away?? No wonder you won't breathe a word of your loss! In any case, I suspect it's quite a good poem for people like me whose knowledge of poetry is a bit limited. It has a nice rhythm to it and the denoument captures a nice, clear message.

I will recommend "One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest" at some point, but as you say, perhaps when my Godson is a little older. It's been one of my favourites since I read it at an impressionable age and then didn't fail to please on a different level when re-read as an adult. I wasn't aware that Ken Kesey was a resident of Oregon - you learn something every day. Was he a near neighbour of yours? I like the idea of discussing the weather over the garden fence with the Author of "One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest".

Thanks again for your response.

CB

[Ecurb]

Kesey lived a few miles away from me, although I was friends with one of his near neighbors and once went to a party at his house due to that connection.

Lots of people (especially young people) love "If" -- mine is the idiosyncratic opinion. I think Kipling was a great story teller and I prefer his story poems (the most famous of which include "Danny Deever", "The Ballad of East and West" and, although it's not as much of a story, "Road to Mandalay").

As an Oregon resident for 30 years, I recommend "Sometimes A Great Notion", Kesey's other early novel, as a good depiction of my state. A little piece of literary gossip: Larry McMurtry, who was Kesey's fellow literature student at Stanford, married Kesey's widow, Faye.

I agree, of course, that literature can be morally enlightening. Philosophy represents a logical approach to morality; literature an analogical approach. It's just that I wonder if over-emphasizing that particular function of literature may discourage some young people from reading it. I also agree about avoiding non-fiction masquerading as literature, although, as Tolstoy demonstrates, great fiction can include non-fictional and philosophical sections.

I posted a link to this overtly (although agnostic) religious Christmas story in another link. Dostoevsky shows how sentimental but agnostic stories can be shaped: http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/58527.htm

The authorial asides at the beginning and the end of the story demonstrate that uncertainty and faith can coexist. Belief is about what is true; faith about what is righteous.

[Chief Bromden]

Loved the Dostoevsky story, Ecurb, Thanks.