Dynamic characters in The Crucible

[AGY]

I have a rough draft due soon, and I'm getting a little desperate

So the topic I'm supposed to write about is a dynamic character and the relevance of the character's change

So I chose John Hale, because of how he turns from confident and righteous to someone who realizes the truth and attempts to save those he condemned

However, I fail to see how that is relevant to the plot. While his character did change, it was too late at that point, as multiple characters have been hanged, and Proctor is still executed. While I could say "If he changed faster, then he might have saved people" but teachers don't really like the "if____ then ____ might have happened" structure.

Also, if anyone could solidify on how he changed throughout the story, I would appreciate it. Thanks!

[Dreamwoven]

Sorry, but this is a common mistake new members make, that we have read everything and can pronounce on them. You are very welcome to the LitNet Forums, AGY, and I hope that by browsing the forums you will find your place and enjoy yourself. You might like to provide a few details of the book or the author, date of publication etc. You never know, someone on the forums might have read it!

[Pompey Bum]

Another way to put that is that when we start doing people's homework for them (to be nice), they usually tell their friends and we get a ship storm (as it were) of students expecting us to write their papers. But I'll tell you what I will do: I'll give you my impressions to (hopefully) stimulate your own ideas. But you have to take it from there. Write your own draft and don't send your buddies over. And please don't send me private messages about this. I'm sorry to sound ungracious, but you have had predecessors (some of whom still drop in) who have abused things.

It seems to me that Miller was writing about discerning truth and the implications of living with lies. So Hale is an important figure because he comes to Salem to determine whether there is really an outbreak of witchcraft or just bunch of teenagers lying. The change Hale goes through is from his early blindness to the manipulations of Abigail to his discernment of truth through actual investigation (privately interviewing Elizabeth and John Proctor, for example) and thinking for himself (his skepticism and eventual resignation from the court). But although Hale eventually understands that the accusations are lies, he rejects truth as an antidote. Instead he urges Proctor to save himself from hanging by a false confession (which would have destroyed his name and implicated others). As you know, Proctor is tempted but ultimately rejects this solution and goes to the gallows with the other innocents.

So the fact that Hale's change does not prevent the hangings turns out to be important to the story. I would read over that part again and ask yourself how Hale's well intended solution of a false confession works within the analogy Miller is drawing between the witch hysteria and McCarthyism--which is rather the point of the play. Note also that historically the dubious execution of a relatively important man like John Proctor and a harmless and pious old lady like Rebecca Nurse (who everyone knew damn well was innocent) ultimately weakened the credibility of the witchcraft trials; they were later ended when the girls started accusing a handful of skeptical big shots in Boston. So what do you think Miller is saying about Hale's proposal and Proctor's decision in the light of his own times?

I hope that was helpful and, like DW, I truly welcome you to the site.

DW: You ought to read The Crucible. It's not that long, and it's a great play.

[Dreamwoven]

Your recommendation is good, I will do that, Pompey.

[Pompey Bum]

Your recommendation is good, I will do that, Pompey.

Here's an online/downloadable pdf version. It's only 61 (mini-) pages. I'd recommend it to anyone else, too.

http://www.cusd80.com/cms/lib6/AZ01001175/Centricity/Domain/4860/The%20Crucible_full%20text_adobe_format.pdf

[AGY]

Another way to put that is that when we start doing people's homework for them (to be nice), they usually tell their friends and we get a ship storm (as it were) of students expecting us to write their papers. But I'll tell you what I will do: I'll give you my impressions to (hopefully) stimulate your own ideas. But you have to take it from there. Write your own draft and don't send your buddies over. And please don't send me private messages about this. I'm sorry to sound ungracious, but you have had predecessors (some of whom still drop in) who have abused things.

It seems to me that Miller was writing about discerning truth and the implications of living with lies. So Hale is an important figure because he comes to Salem to determine whether there is really an outbreak of witchcraft or just bunch of teenagers lying. The change Hale goes through is from his early blindness to the manipulations of Abigail to his discernment of truth through actual investigation (privately interviewing Elizabeth and John Proctor, for example), and thinking for himself (his skepticism and eventual resignation from the court). But although Hale eventually understands that the accusations are lies, he rejects truth as an antidote. Instead he urges Proctor to save himself from hanging by a false confession (which would have destroyed his name and implicated others). As you know, Proctor is tempted but ultimately rejects this solution and goes to the gallows with the other innocents.

So the fact that Hale's change does not prevent the hangings turns out to be important to the story. I would read over that part again and ask yourself how Hale's well intended solution of a false confession works within the analogy Miller is drawing between the witch hysteria and McCarthyism--which is rather the point of the play. Note also that the dubious execution of a relatively important man like John Proctor and a harmless and pious old lady like Rebecca Nurse (who everyone knew damn well was innocent) ultimately weakened the credibility of the witchcraft trials; they were later ended when the girl's started accusing a handful of skeptical big shots in Boston. So what do you think Miller is saying about Hale's proposal and Proctor's decision in the light of his own times?

I hope that was helpful and, like DW, I truly welcome you to the site.

DW: You ought to read The Crucible. It's not that long, and it's a great play.

I have no intention on bringing my friends over here, I just needed a starting point for my essay, which you have provided magnificently.

Thanks for the help!

[Pompey Bum]

You're welcome. I hope it works out for you. And bring any friends you like as long as they don't get the idea we're writing their papers for them. :)

[Dreamwoven]

I have just ordered the Crucible from Bokus.com, look forward to receiving it and reading it. We have about a foot of snow here and its still falling...

[Pompey Bum]

I hope you enjoy it, DW. Nothing but leaves falling over here.

[Danik 2016]

I was so engrossed by the play that I read it all yesterday.
I would love to discuss it. I had heard of the Witches of Salem but had no idea what it was about.
Just waiting until DW and who else wants to participate reads the play.
And I promise solemnly that I´m not going to write a paper about it.:)

[Red Terror]

I was so engrossed by the play that I read it all yesterday.
I would love to discuss it. I had heard of the Witches of Salem but had no idea what it was about.
Just waiting until DW and who else wants to participate reads the play.
And I promise solemnly that I´m not going to write a paper about it.:)

Witch hunts are a metaphor for the anti-communist hysteria generated by the demagogic Senator Joseph McCarthy. Arthur Miller refused to name names and protected leftists that he knew were socialist and communists from persecution. The movie "Trumbo" captures the spirit of the times. Dalton Trumbo wrote the anti-war novel Johnny Got his Gun and the screenplay for the film Spartacus.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0dZ_2ICpJE

[Pompey Bum]

I was so engrossed by the play that I read it all yesterday.
I would love to discuss it. I had heard of the Witches of Salem but had no idea what it was about.
Just waiting until DW and who else wants to participate reads the play.
And I promise solemnly that I´m not going to write a paper about it.:)

Stop teasing me. :)

And discuss away, Danik. I already spoiled the ending (sorry, DW), so it couldn't hurt. When I was younger, I did some political work in that area (Salem/Danvers) and got to spend some time on the properties of some of the families involved, including Rebecca Nurse's. A few years ago there was a BBC/PBS production about the events called Three Soverigns for Sarah. The production crew built an accurate reproduction of the homestead, and it was still there. I don't believe in ghosts, but I must admit there was an weird feeling about the place.

[Danik 2016]

"Witch hunts are a metaphor for the anti-communist hysteria generated by the demagogic Senator Joseph McCarthy." Thanks, Red. I know that that is the interpretation of the play. But what interests me most is how the play relates to the original episode.

Its fine that you have worked there, Pompey I was hoping to have the opinion of someone that knows the place and has felt its energy.
The whole episode of the judgment reminded me of the catholic Inquisition that was very active at the same time. With one important difference- In the Inquisition the judges were the men of the church and the condemned were executed by the secular power. In the play here it is the secular power that judges the witches the ministers don´t seem to have much influence. The tribunal seems to be mainly concerned to demonstrate and exert its power.It doesn´t care for the fate of the accused and Hale is almost told to mind his own business.
Tituba is a curious character too- We have here African religions and rites too. One of them is called "Macumba". I don´t know much about it but there is dancing to the playing of drums. The religious leader man or woman is said to incorporate the African gods and also, if I am not mistaken the spirits of the dead but never a living one. Maybe Tituba was enacting a similar kind of ritual, they were consulting the dead spirit of some girl. But the interpretation turned it seemingly into something different, the kettle and the frog are associated to European witches.
Another thing that puzzles me: how come that a bunch of 12 year old girls came to have so much power in that community, to apoint the possessed? It seemed that they first appointed some outsiders as witches but in the last not even very cherished members of the parish were spared. Children like power as much as adult and they are more open about it. When Mary Warren expressed herself the first time about it I thought she was a member of the judgment board. Did they manipulate the whole community or where they themselves manipulated by the board?

[Pompey Bum]

The whole episode of the judgment reminded me of the catholic Inquisition that was very active at the same time. With one important difference- In the Inquisition the judges were the men of the church and the condemned were executed by the secular power. In the play here it is the secular power that judges the witches the ministers don't seem to have much influence.

The distinction between secular and sacred power would have been pretty fuzzy at the time of the trials. The court members were religious authorities, too, but they held higher status than local clergy like Parris. The hearing was set up by the governor in Boston, and it convened in Salem Town, which is the modern city of Salem. But most of the accusations took place in the rural (and socially lower) Salem Village, which is now the town of Danvers. So some of what you are sensing is probably that kind of status issue.


Its fine that you have worked there, Pompey I was hoping to have the opinion of someone that knows the place and has felt its energy.

Danvers is still a quiet place. The Nurse property definitely had a "too quiet" feeling to it. I'm sure it was mostly my mood or imagination, although people claim to have run into Rebecca's ghost over the years. I don't buy it, but there was a sort of sad feeling to the place. Salem, on the other hand, is just a second-rate city. There's a pretty waterfront there and a great maritime museum, but it doesn't have a lot else going for it. Witch tourists are invariably disappointed.


Tituba is a curious character too- We have here African religions and rites too. One of them is called "Macumba". I don´t know much about it but there is dancing to the playing of drums. The religious leader man or woman is said to incorporate the African gods and also, if I am not mistaken the spirits of the dead but never a living one. Maybe Tituba was enacting a similar kind of ritual, they were consulting the dead spirit of some girl. But the interpretation turned it seemingly into something different, the kettle and the frog are associated to European witches.

I think that part of the play is somewhat speculative. Tituba was a slave from the Caribbean and well known to the girls, so people have assumed she must have been teaching them some kind of traditional magic. But the girls could simply have accused her because she was an easy target. What Tituba did, though, was to plead guilty and name others to save herself. This is one of the things that reminded Miller of McCarthyism.

By the way, I think I may have seen the possession ritual you are talking about, many years ago in rural Africa.


Another thing that puzzles me: how come that a bunch of 12 year old girls came to have so much power in that community, to apoint the possessed? It seemed that they first appointed some outsiders as witches but in the last not even very cherished members of the parish were spared. Children like power as much as adult and they are more open about it. When Mary Warren expressed herself the first time about it I thought she was a member of the judgment board. Did they manipulate the whole community or where they themselves manipulated by the board?

Yeah, power is what it was all about, and the girls drove the whole thing. Women didn't have much overt power in Puritan Massachusetts, and children had even less; so imagine what it would have been like for these girls, who were between eight and seventeen. Maybe Tituba had been teaching them magic and they felt guilty or were afraid they were going to get in trouble if they didn't strike first. Maybe they just didn't like her. But they bit, and people started to get and executed, and what do you know, power tasted pretty good. So they kept going. The girls used to claim that the people they accused would send their spirits after them. That's why they used to writhe and scream when the accused were brought into court. But this could be done remotely, too. All they had to do was to fall and twist about and cry: "Oh, Goodman Danik doth pinch me!"--and you'd be out of luck. In court, this was known as "spectral evidence," and it was how the girls did business. Later, after they'd grown up, they admitted they had faked the whole thing. It had just seemed like a good idea at the time.

[Danik 2016]

"The distinction between secular and sacred power would have been pretty fuzzy at the time of the trials. The court members were religious authorities, too, but they held higher status than local clergy like Parris. The hearing was set up by the governor in Boston, and it convened in Salem Town, which is the modern city of Salem. But most of the accusations took place in the rural (and socially lower) Salem Villiage, which is now the town of Danvers. So some of what you are sensing is probably that kind of status issue."
Reading the play and the little historical information I found in Google, you get the impression that it was a local or, at most, a very regional episode. That higher courts and courts with teological background got involved in it doesn´t make it easier to understand.
"Danvers is still a quiet place. The Nurse property definitely had a "too quiet" feeling to it. I'm sure it was mostly my mood or imagination, although people claim to have run into Rebecca's ghost over the years. I don't buy it, but there was a sort of sad feeling to the place. Salem, on the other hand, is just a second-rate city. There's a pretty waterfront there and a great maritime museum, but it doesn't have a lot else going for it. Witch tourists are invariably disappointed."
You probably were impressed with what you had heard about the place, before going to it. Even so, maybe you have a hightened sensibility for the energy of the place. And I guess the city changed its name not to be too readily associated with the witches episode.

"I think that part of the play is somewhat speculative. Tituba was a slave from the Caribbean and well known to the girls, so people have assumed she must have been teaching them some kind of traditional magic. But the girls could simply have accused her because she was an easy target. What Tituba did, though, was to plead guilty and name others to save herself. This is one of the things that reminded Miller of McCarthyism.

By the way, I think I may have seen the possession ritual you are talking about, many years ago in rural Africa."
It seems Miller didn´t have much knowled of African religious practices. What puzzles me is that a negro slave would share her native religious knowledge with white people even with girls or children. Here they would practice it among them. It only was disseminated after Abolition I think, but I didn´t read about it.
Today there are many communities where macumba or umbanda is practised, some of them are open to tourists. They are usually led by a "Pai de Santo" or a "Mãe de Santo"
(literally Father or Mother of th Saint) which is an influential and highly respected member of the community.
"Yeah, power is what it was all about, and the girls drove the whole thing. Women didn't have much overt power in Puritan Massachusetts, and children had even less; so imagine what it would have been like for these girls, who were between eight and seventeen. Maybe Tituba had been teaching them magic and they felt guilty or were afraid they were going to get in trouble if they didn't strike first. Maybe they just didn't like her. But they bit, and people started to get and executed, and what do you know, power tasted pretty good. So they kept going. The girls used to claim that the people they accused would send their spirits after them. That's why they used to writhe and scream when the accused were brought into court."
It´s not difficult to understand the children. It is difficult to understand the adults, and local and state authorities at that, buying the show so easily even if one considers that 300 years would pass before Freud published his essays on histeria. It seems not only the children benefited by it.

[Pompey Bum]

Reading the play and the little historical information I found in Google, you get the impression that it was a local or, at most, a very regional episode. That higher courts and courts with teological background got involved in it doesn´t make it easier to understand.

Maybe it helps to understand that there weren't all that many colonists in Massachusetts at the time. It was a harsh environment and survival was always precarious. So a place like Salem village relied on Salem Town and both relied on Boston for support. The witch trials weren't a matter of backwood ignorance but educated elites stepping into a bad situation and making it worse. To give them credit, they (or their superiors) were also the ones who eventually halted the hysteria. But it was too late for the ones who suffered.

There's a great old book you might like, Danik, called The Devil in Massachusetts by Marion Starkey. It's a popular history and old so the scholarship is not going to be cutting edge, but it is accurate in its narrative and really fun to read. I just found a reprinted ebook on Amazon (for the low, low price of $3.99). There are some more current books listed there, too, but I've never read them.


It´s not difficult to understand the children. It is difficult to understand the adults, and local and state authorities at that, buying the show so easily even if one considers that 300 years would pass before Freud published his essays on histeria. It seems not only the children benefited by it.

For almost all adults it was just an out of control situation and a horror. The only ones who benefitted were the family members of some of the girls. After the girls power grew, several of them began to accuse family enemies or people whose land their families wanted. But there is no evidence that their families were actually behind this, whatever they may have thought privately. If they had anything to do with it, they never confessed.

[Danik 2016]

Maybe it helps to understand that there weren't all that many colonists in Massachusetts at the time. It was a harsh environment and survival was always precarious. So a place like Salem village relied on Salem Town and both relied on Boston for support. The witch trials weren't a matter of backwoods ignorance as educated elites stepping into a bad situation and making it worse. To give them credit, they (or their superiors) were also the ones who eventually halted the hysteria. But it was too late for the ones who suffered.

That it was a harsh community could be noticed in the play. They called each other "goodie" all the time but the feelings weren´t very neighbourly.
Thanks for the reference, PB. As usual I went hunting for downloading editions and found some. I don´t know if they are free, because you have to login on the page to download the book. However on the link below one can read the book on line it seems, without having to log in.

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015007020186;view=1up;seq=19

"For almost all adults it was just an out of control situation and a horror."

And that in two or three small communities! It´s good they didn´t have social nets at that time.

[Pompey Bum]

Oh, thank you, Danik! That's just awesome. I look forward to reading it again after all these years. Thanks! :-D


That it was a harsh community could be noticed in the play. They called each other "goodie" all the time but the feelings weren´t very neighbourly.

Goodie was short for Goodwife, a title indicating relative (and theoretically total) equality with other married women of good standing in the community. But it was no more used as a term of affection than when the Soviets used to call one another Comrade. It was just a formal, sanctioned way to refer to someone. There would have been plenty of genuinely good neighbors, though. They had to stick together to survive. But there were things that made the Puritans harsh, too. We have very bitter winters here--long and cold to the bone. In those days there was a lot of infant mortality and infectious disease. It would have been a temptation to a mother whose babies kept dying to listen to listen to an accusation that a witch had done it. (This is alluded to early in the play). And Calvinism, too, for theological reasons that strongly affected individual behavior, created a certain amount of watchfulness among community members. All of these things probably fed the fire of the witch trials. But mostly, I think, it was fear and human nature. As Miller wanted to show, something similar happened (and on a much larger scale) during the McCarthy era.


And that in two or three small communities!

The Massachusetts experience was obviously tragic. Twenty people were executed, more than a hundred were incarcerated in what would have amounted to an overcrowded barn (in winter), and between five and seven people (including two children) died in those conditions. And people shake their heads because it happened in the late 17th century. Leibniz and Newton were contemporaries of the events, Bach and Handel were both seven year olds, Voltaire was born a year after it ended. But what is more shocking to me is that tens of thousands died in major European witch hunts between the 15th and late 18th centuries. The Massachusetts hysteria, which only lasted about a year, was the least drop in that ocean of blood. Still, it important people remember.

[Danik 2016]

You are welcome!

Goodie was short for Goodwife, a title indicating relative (and theoretically total) equality with other married women of good standing in the community.
I thought it was short for "godmother"- Here in Brazil godmather and godfather play an important role in family life and in the life of small comunities.
But what is more shocking to me is that tens of thousands died in major European witch hunts between the 15th and late 18th centuries. The Massachusetts hysteria, which only lasted about a year, was the least drop in that ocean of blood.
You are right there.Brazil had its share too, not in witch hunting, but inquisition. I think what is frightening about the Salem episode is the link to child histeria.

[Pompey Bum]

I thought it was short for "godmother"- Here in Brazil godmather and godfather play an important role in family life and in the life of small comunities.

No, it meant goodwife. The male equivalent was goodman. The equality I mentioned would only have applied to other goodmen and goodwives. There were misters, mistresses, doctors, etc., who were socially higher. But the equality of neighbors would have been a big deal in a place like Salem Village.


Brazil had its share too, not in witch hunting, but inquisition.

Was the inquisition in Brazil looking for Protestants or apostate Indian converts (or both)? I can't imagine there were many other "heretics"--or did Antonio Conselheiro have predecessors I don't know about?

[Gladys]

For me, the psychological and moral dilemmas confronting John Proctor are fascinating, as are his interactions with wife Elizabeth and lover Abigail. The dilemmas are as poignant as those facing Willy and Linda Lowman in Miller's Death of a Salesman.

[Danik 2016]

I agree Gladys. It´s probably the fictional part of the play. I think Proctor more than Hale might be considered the protagonist of the play, if there is any. But turning Abigail into a slut is a bit a common place, soap opera solution although its a reason for her accusing Goody Proctor.

[Danik 2016]

No, it meant goodwife. The male equivalent was goodman. The equality I mentioned would only have applied to other goodmen and goodwives. There were misters, mistresses, doctors, etc., who were socially higher. But the equality of neighbors would have been a big deal in a place like Salem Village.

I see!


Was the inquisition in Brazil looking for Protestants or apostate Indian converts (or both)? I can't imagine there were many other "heretics"--or did Antonio Conselheiro have predecessors I don't know about?
They were
They were mainly after newly converted jews and their descendants. Many of former Portuguese jewish families settled in Colonial Brazil.
There were freedom movements before Conselheiro, some of them leaded by priests, but as a religious movement Canudos was unique. And it was only erradicated because the farmer and priests nearby were afraid of the settlement and put the newly installed Republican Government under pressure. I don´t think they were a real menace to the Government.

[Gladys]

I agree Gladys. It´s probably the fictional part of the play. I think Proctor more than Hale might be considered the protagonist of the play, if there is any. But turning Abigail into a slut is a bit a common place, soap opera solution although its a reason for her accusing Goody Proctor.

It's no more fictional than any other part of the play. The dreadful dilemmas facing Proctor, Abigail and Elizabeth are no different than those facing so many entangled in the Un-American witch-hunts led by Senator Joseph McCarthy.

Labeling Abigail a slut is a bit unfair. She is a very immature girl unfairly used by the mature Procter. The immature girl acts immaturely - little surprise there. She protects herself, as best she can, at Proctor's expense and Elizabeth is collateral damage. During the communist witch-hunts, collateral damage was commonplace.

[Danik 2016]

In fact I was more interested in the seventh century episode, than in what Arthur Miller made out of it or in its relation to McCarthyism.

The real Abigail probably was a child at the time and the affair isn´t based in fact.

As I don´t know if you followed the whole discussion I include again a link for reading on line to a book recomended by PB about the historical facts. I haven´t read it but it might interest you:
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015007020186;view=1up;seq=19

[Pompey Bum]

For me, the psychological and moral dilemmas confronting John Proctor are fascinating, as are his interactions with wife Elizabeth and lover Abigail. The dilemmas are as poignant as those facing Willy and Linda Lowman in Miller's Death of a Salesman.


It's no more fictional than any other part of the play. The dreadful dilemmas facing Proctor, Abigail and Elizabeth are no different than those facing so many entangled in the Un-American witch-hunts led by Senator Joseph McCarthy.

Hello, Gladys. Long time. There is a chilling psychological realism in The Crucible. Miller spurns an easy cliche by making his martyr Proctor a flawed human being rather than a plaster saint. The historical Abigail William's was not John Proctor's 17-year-old maidservant-mistress but Samuel Parris' 11-year-old niece. Mary Warren was Proctor's maid, but I don't believe they actually had an affair. I think Miller gets fuzzy with history to make the point that alł have moral faults, even the victims of witch hunts (religious or secular).


Labeling Abigail a slut is a bit unfair. She is a very immature girl unfairly used by the mature Procter. The immature girl acts immaturely - little surprise there. She protects herself, as best she can, at Proctor's expense and Elizabeth is collateral damage. During the communist witch-hunts, collateral damage was commonplace.

I would not call Elizabeth Proctor (in the context of the play) "collateral damage." Abigail attempts to raise spirits and drinks blood in an attempt to curse her because she thinks Proctor will come back to her if Elizabeth dies. If she's protecting herself as best she can, she is being awfully aggressive about it. And if "collateral damage was commonplace" during the McCarthy era, so was targeting competitors and personal enemies. But I agree it is unfair to call Abigail a slut. I see her underlying sin as envy.

[Gladys]

I would not call Elizabeth Proctor (in the context of the play) "collateral damage." Abigail attempts to raise spirits and drinks blood in an attempt to curse her because she thinks Proctor will come back to her if Elizabeth dies. If she's protecting herself as best she can, she is being awfully aggressive about it. And if "collateral damage was commonplace" during the McCarthy era, so was targeting competitors and personal enemies. But I agree it is unfair to call Abigail a slut. I see her underlying sin as envy.

Late in the play, the teenage orphan Abigail has two issues: dealing emotionally with Proctor's perceived unfaithfulness, defending herself against witchcraft. Dealing with either is hard: dealing with both unimaginable. And yes, the orphan lacks the upbringing, maturity and integrity of a Rebecca Nurse.

Witch-hunts, whether in 1690's Salem or 1950's America, bring out the best and worst in people. There but for the grace of God...

[Pompey Bum]

Witch-hunts, whether in 1690's Salem or 1950's America, bring out the best and worst in people. There but for the grace of God...

The best, the worst, and I think for most an ugly mix of good and bad. For me, the most powerful aspect of Miller's play is that he was not only writing about Salem and McCarthyism, but also about things that happen everyday in one way or another in workplaces, schools, churches, and families, and that will as long as people are subject to fear and their own fallen natures. That's what keeps The Crucible relevant. And yes, there but for the Grace of God...

[Pompey Bum]

They were mainly after newly converted jews and their descendants. Many of former Portuguese jewish families settled in Colonial Brazil.

Very interesting, Danik. I have been to Lisbon and seen the quarter from which the Sephardic Jews were expelled. That would have been (shortly) before the colonization of Brazil, though, so I think the Jews who went there must have been Conversos (I don't know the Portuguese, but forced converts) who were still viewed with suspicion by the inquisition. That would explain why they were persecuted in Brazil (and why they wanted to leave Europe in the first place). Do you know if there was a lot of apostasy in Brazil? Did Jewish communities form despite the inquisition? Or were they just harassing them out of paranoia?

[Danik 2016]

I don´t know very much about the Jews in colonial Brazil. Acording to wiki you are right , they were Sephardic Jews, conversos, yes, or cristãos novos (New Christians). The inquisition could only pursue baptised people so they focused on the descendants sometimes of many generations. Like the witch hunters they had to have their victims. The judgment had to be in Portugal so they sent the visitadores, a kind of agents to Brazil to investigate the heretics. When found guilty (and the interrogated were tortured) they were sent to Portugal for judgment and execution.

Here is a bit more about the Jews in Brazil. The article is probably translated from Portuguese.

http://www.jewishgen.org/InfoFiles/BrazilianJewry.htm

These are ugly chapters of history.

[Pompey Bum]

I don´t know very much about the Jews in colonial Brazil. Acording to wiki you are right , they were Sephardic Jews, conversos, yes, or cristãos novos (New Christians). The inquisition could only pursue baptised people so they focused on the descendants sometimes of many generations. Like the witch hunters they had to have their victims. The judgment had to be in Portugal so they sent the visitadores, a kind of agents to Brazil to investigate the heretics. When found guilty (and the interrogated were tortured) they were sent to Portugal for judgment and execution.

Here is a bit more about the Jews in Brazil. The article is probably translated from Portuguese.

http://www.jewishgen.org/InfoFiles/BrazilianJewry.htm

These are ugly chapters of history.

Thank you for this information, Danik. Yes, the stories can be ugly. In fact, you can't learn much history without developing a fairly low opinion of human nature. But as Gladys says, such things have the potential to bring out the best and worst in people. I always wonder about the stories that were not preserved.

I guess I knew that the Church could only pursue the baptized. One problem (more of an ugly situation) in some parts of the New World was that an Indian community might be baptized because they were curious or didn't fully understand what they were getting themselves into, and when they resumed their earlier practices they became subject to persecution. Personally I find the historical failures of religion (such as the Salem trials) interesting and important, but there is always an ugly human side to such things.

[Pompey Bum]

So did Dreaamwoven ever read this play? I thought we were waiting for his comments.

[Gladys]

For me, the most powerful aspect of Miller's play is that he was not only writing about Salem and McCarthyism, but also about things that happen everyday in one way or another in workplaces, schools, churches, and families, and that will as long as people are subject to fear and their own fallen natures.

So true, because witch-hunts abound.

[Danik 2016]

"I guess I knew that the Church could only pursue the baptized."
To me that wasn´t by any means so clear given the power at that time of the Catholic Church, that´s why I mentioned it.

One problem (more of an ugly situation) in some parts of the New World was that an Indian community might be baptized because they were curious or didn't fully understand what they were getting themselves into, and when they resumed their earlier practices they became subject to persecution."[/SIZE][/SIZE].
Here in São Paulo with had a peculiar situation regarding Indian Conversion. I didn´t mention it before because I didn´t know if you were interested. With the first Jesuit expedition to São Paulo there came a very talented young Jesuit, José de Anchieta. To win the Indians over to the Christian faith he not only learnt Tupi but he also started to compose poems and plays in that language. The plays followed the model of the Portuguese religious Autos. They are mostly alegorical like the early English plays (Pilgrim´s Progress style but mostly in verse form) attempting to aproximate the Christian figures and the Tupi gods. I suppose that these first Jesuites sincerely believed they were saving the souls of the Indians bey converting them to the Catholic faith. The Jesuits were in general the first educators of the new country but in 1759 they were all expelled for political reasons.
I didn´t read anywhere about persecussions of Indians because of apostasy. I don´t know how far they were considered full citizens by Portuguese religious and secular authorities during the colonial period.

[Pompey Bum]

Here in São Paulo with had a peculiar situation regarding Indian Conversion. I didn´t mention it before because I didn´t know if you were interested. With the first Jesuit expedition to São Paulo there came a very talented young Jesuit, José de Anchieta. To win the Indians over to the Christian faith he not only learnt Tupi but he also started to compose poems and plays in that language. The plays followed the model of the Portuguese religious Autos. They are mostly alegorical like the early English plays (Pilgrim´s Progress style but mostly in verse form) attempting to aproximate the Christian figures and the Tupi gods. I suppose that these first Jesuites sincerely believed they were saving the souls of the Indians bey converting them to the Catholic faith. The Jesuits were in general the first educators of the new country but in 1759 they were all expelled for political reasons.

Yes, it's a nasty story. The Jesuits established missionary settlements and the Indians were settled there, taught to read, and told all were brothers and sisters in Christ The missions were protected by Spanish law and the Indians were sheltered from Portuguese slavers. But a European treaty gave the area to Portugal, and the communities were eventually enslaved. What a ghastly thing.



I didn´t read anywhere about persecussions of Indians because of apostasy. I don´t know how far they were considered full citizens by Portuguese religious and secular authorities during the colonial period.

There was a really shocking case of this in Central America. A Spanish missionary converted a large number of Mayans. Eventually he is supposed to have discovered graphic evidence of a new blood cult (involving child sacrifice) which combined traditional Mayan mythology with the Christian ritual he was teaching them. Whatever happened (opinions differ), he responded with his own inquisition (torture, burnings, etc.) that was so brutal and extensive that he was recalled to Spain and brought before the Spanish Inquisition. Apparently he was giving them a bad name.

[Danik 2016]

There was a really shocking case of this in Central America. A Spanish missionary converted a large number of Mayans. Eventually he is supposed to have discovered graphic evidence of a new blood c
ult (involving child sacrifice) which combined traditional Mayan mythology with the Christian ritual he was teaching them. Whatever happened (opinions differ), he responded with his own inquisition (torture, burnings, etc.) that was so brutal and extensive that he was recalled to Spain and brought before the Spanish Inquisition. Apparently he was giving them a bad name.
Was is this one?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diego_de_Landa
But this other information is interesting:
"Crown fiat had earlier exempted indigenous peoples from the authority of the Inquisition, on the grounds that their understanding of Christianity was "too childish"[citation needed] for them to be held culpable for heresies."

[Pompey Bum]

Yes, I was talking about de Landa. As your source says, he is also notorious for burning Mayan books. The information about the royal fiat, though unattested, is interesting. (A royal fiat is when something becomes law because a king says so). That may have been the formal policy in Spain, but the Spaniards are notorious for doing their own thing once their ships landed. And the fiat would not have applied in Portuguese territory in any case, which leaves open the question of apostasy in Brazil.

[Danik 2016]

Except in this case, when Spanish Isabel from Aragon was married to a Portuguese prince. And Brasil was seen in that matter as a kind of extension of Portuguese territory.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Portugal

Quite a curious marriage though, two children married by proxy:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isabella_of_Aragon,_Queen_of_Portugal (corrected the link)

[Pompey Bum]

Except in this case, when Spanish Isabel from Aragon was married to a Portuguese prince. And Brasil was seen in that matter as a kind of extension of Portuguese territory.[/url]

So who was responsible for the royal fiat* and when? Did it ever apply to Brazil?

*And don't say the Royal mechanic. :)

[Danik 2016]

And certainly not the royal children!

That´s not an easy question, PB. Possibly the noblemen and church people who arranged the wedding of Isabel, made of the expelling of the Jews one of the conditions for the royal marriage. As for Brazil, those were early colonial times. There wasn´t an independent government yet, so what applied to Portugal automatically aplied to Brazil.

But we are sayling miles away from The Crucible and its dynamic characters :). I wonder if the OP is still around...

[Pompey Bum]

The OP probably got an A on his paper and will never be heard from again. What I want to know is where Dreamwoven got off to. I thought we were waiting for him to finish the play. You there, DW?

In the meantime, I think we are talking about different things. I meant: who made this fiat about exempting Indians from apostasy because (supposedly) they were too simple to understand it, when was it made, and did it apply to Brazil? My hunch is that it may have been something on the books, but that it was only applied when needed (as in the case of de Landa). But I don't really know.

[Danik 2016]

I see! Aparently it didn´t apply to Brazil. I found some articles in Portuguese that stated that Brazilian Indians were persecuted by the Inquisition but without giving nearer details of legislation or numbers.

[Pompey Bum]

That's really sad (but more or less what I expected).

Maybe we should PM Dreamwoven...

[Danik 2016]

I agree with you.

I think DW will turn up on his own when he wants to join the discussion :). It is possible that he hasn´t received the book yet.