equality between the sexes

[cacian]

is there ever one?

[desiresjab]

is there ever one?

It is an idea and an ideal whose orchard has finally born fruit. Now apples and oranges are both fruits. I like equal access for my table. Since equal in mathematics means identical to, apples and oranges can never be equal in a mathematical or literal sense.

I love both apples and oranges as beings. I cannot imagine one without the other. Apples should have access to anything oranges can have, and vice versa. We will always draw the distinction, however. The woman at the water cooler will remain a sex object in the minds of her male co-workers simply because she is attractive and they are males of a particulr age. Even if they learn to contain themesleves at work, those primitive feelings would persist. The drawing of such distinctions is part of perception and instinct, and will not go away, even if disavowed.

Better, we learn to live with our distinctions and do not allow them to impede the advancement of anyone into domains where the difference is of no import. We should be wise enough to acknowledge where the differences actually are germane, though. Frontline combat might be an example.

[cacian]

It is an idea and an ideal whose orchard has finally born fruit. Now apples and oranges are both fruits. I like equal access for my table. Since equal in mathematics means identical to, apples and oranges can never be equal in a mathematical or literal sense.

I love both apples and oranges as beings. I cannot imagine one without the other. Apples should have access to anything oranges can have, and vice versa. We will always draw the distinction, however. The woman at the water cooler will remain a sex object in the minds of her male co-workers simply because she is attractive and they are males of a particulr age. Even if they learn to contain themesleves at work, those primitive feelings would persist. The drawing of such distinctions is part of perception and instinct, and will not go away, even if disavowed.

Better, we learn to live with our distinctions and do not allow them to impede the advancement of anyone into domains where the difference is of no import. We should be wise enough to acknowledge where the differences actually are germane, though. Frontline combat might be an example.

interesting analogy :)
may I point out that both fruits peak at different seasons
one being winter and the other summer
does that matter?

[Danik 2016]

The equalization of salaries would be a good start.

[desiresjab]

interesting analogy :)
may I point out that both fruits peak at different seasons
one being winter and the other summer
does that matter?

Only poetically.

[desiresjab]

The equalization of salaries would be a good start.

Let's not speak as if women's liberation has not got a START yet, lad. There is already some fruit on the trees, though they are not yet at full production level. For the same job women must be paid the same as men, you will find only agreement here. That it is not yet so is typical of our lip service to good principles.

[PeterL]

is there ever one?

No, and we do not want it. Women are the important ones, and they always have been. Let's let them continue running the world in their indirect ways.

[Clopin]

The equalization of salaries would be a good start.

They're already equal provided the two parties are working the same job under the exact same circumstances. The gender pay gap is a total fabrication.

[Danik 2016]

Maybe in Canada, Clopin. But in many other countries the pay gap exists. I don´t have the time to research on it now, but I am sure that if you make a search in the internet, you will find a lot of evidence.

[Clopin]

Maybe in Canada, Clopin. But in many other countries the pay gap exists. I don´t have the time to research on it now, but I am sure that if you make a search in the internet, you will find a lot of evidence.

True, I'm referring to the first world/European and North American countries. I'm not interested in doing your research for you, but you'll quickly find that the 'evidence' indicating a gender pay gap only takes into account total earnings by gender without controlling for variables like field of employment or even hours worked.

If a male petroleum engineer working 60 hours a work significantly out-earns a female childcare operative working 30 hours a week that's not evidence of discrimination, and yet the figures treat it as being such.

[Pompey Bum]

I don´t have the time to research on it now, but I am sure that if you make a search in the internet, you will find a lot of evidence.

So based on that statement, Danik, would it be fair to say that you have accepted a position in advance of the evidence?Please answer that question specifically.

[desiresjab]

If I am in combat and wounded, a woman will not get me on her shoulders. In a world where a woman with a doctor's note can legally become a man and find her own gal to thrash, if that's what she's into, I think there is already a measure of equality operating.

Inequality as a concept is the hobgoblin of our times. Equality is not doing so bad, but inequality as a political slogan is thriving toward epidemic.

[Danik 2016]

For those interested in the theme here is some evidence:
USA
http://www.aauw.org/research/the-simple-truth-about-the-gender-pay-gap/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_pay_gap
Canada
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2016/03/08/canada-gender-pay-gap_n_9393924.html
http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/wage-gap-oxfam-1.3478938
http://canadianlabour.ca/issues-research/issues/gender-pay-gap
Europe
https://www.google.com.br/search?q=salary+gap+between+genders+Europe+&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b&gfe_rd=cr&ei=XD-dV9ciztXzB8TGohA
etc.

[Clopin]

So you didn't bother reading my post then? All of your sources are citing a pay gap based on total earnings, and not a discriminatory pay gap. If I earn less per hour as a 24 year old cashier than a 55 year old female architect I can't claim discrimination based on my gender now can I? I can't, in fact, claim any sort of discrimination.

And suggesting that a Huffington Post opinion piece constitutes 'evidence' is a bit of a joke. Almost nothing would have less credibility.

[Pompey Bum]

Maybe in Canada, Clopin. But in many other countries the pay gap exists. I don´t have the time to research on it now, but I am sure that if you make a search in the internet, you will find a lot of evidence.


So based on that statement, Danik, would it be fair to say that you have accepted a position in advance of the evidence? Please answer that question specifically.

You don't seem to have read my post either. You certainly didn't answer my question: "So based on that statement, Danik, would it be fair to say that you have accepted a position in advance of the evidence?" I will infer that it would be fair to say so based on your actions, which were to leave at once and to return several hours later with several supporting your position (without even bothering to make an argument). It seems to me that collecting links to oppose your view would require only another Google search. I conclude that you have adopted a ready-made political opinion--one that you liked--before examining the facts.

You are welcome to that opinion, by the way, as Clopin is welcome to his. I have seen this argued either way using the same data. My own view is that the creating ready-made political opinions (aka PC) is mainly helpful to a global elite class that seeks to maintain power by doling out sops to demographic groups. In the meantime genuine injustices to women and girls, such as human trafficking and child prostitution, go largely unhindered. Child prostitutes and enslaved women don't vote. And if they try to march in the streets someone will kill them

It's easy to point to politically correct bogeymen, Danik, but the women's issues that cause genuine suffering are global in scope. I have witnessed shocking child prostitution on the streets of Phnom Penh and in Xinjiang. I could fly to Brazil on a locally arranged course of underaged "sex tourism" anytime I wanted. It is more pleasant to point to other countries as a source of problems, but sometimes it really does help to take Jesus' advice and remove the beam from one's own eye before helping with the speck in another's.

[Danik 2016]

"In the meantime genuine injustices to women and girls, such as human trafficking and child prostitution, go largely unhindered. Child prostitutes and enslaved women don't vote. And if they try to march in the streets someone will kill them

It's easy to point to politically correct bogeymen, Danik, but the women's issues that cause genuine suffering are global in scope. I have witnessed shocking child prostitution on the streets of Phnom Penh and in Xinjiang. I could fly to Brazil on a locally arranged course of underaged "sex tourism" anytime I wanted. It is more pleasant to point to other countries as a source of problems, but sometimes it really does help to take Jesus' advice and remove the beam from one's own eye before helping with the speck in another's."

When I didn´t answer your or Clopins arguments it was because I didn´t want to be drawn into an endless and often fruitless discussion.
With this part of your argument I agree absolutely. And if I didn´t include Brazil or other countries in the research it is not because of any bean in my eyes but because I notice
how little interest people from the so called well to do countries have in them.
When you put cynicism aside, I very often take my hat off to you. But somehow there seems to be a wish to provoke me (with your most innocent bunny face) and that´s where I put my foot down.

[Pompey Bum]

With this part of your argument I agree absolutely.


Would you please remind me what other parts there were? That you didn't answer my original question? That was an observation not an argument. But I am glad we agree as far as we do. Human trafficking and child prostitution are far more critical issues than whether a voter can be bought with the promise of a gender-based raise.


When you put cynicism aside, I very often take my hat off to you. But somehow there seems to be a wish to provoke me (with your most innocent bunny face) and that´s where I put my foot down.

I have never used a personal attack against you, Danik. If you believe I have, please use "reply with quote" to show me and I will sincerely apologize. Please note, though, that disagreeing with your ideas does not constitute an ad hominem (or an attempt to provoke you). But your insinuation about my sincerity ("with your most innocent bunny face," etc.) is a personal attack (though a small one--I'll get over it). I ask you politely to remember that we are all friends here. :)

[Danik 2016]

"I ask you politely to remember that we are all friends here."
Let´s remain with and cultivate that part. :)

[Pompey Bum]

Done. :)

[Clopin]

My own view is that the creating ready-made political opinions (aka PC) is mainly helpful to a global elite class that seeks to maintain power by doling out sops to demographic groups. .

lol wow, conspiracy theory much? Shhhhh, nothing to see here.

http://i-cdn.phonearena.com/images/articles/231510-thumb/zuckerberg-vr.jpg

[Pompey Bum]

lol wow, conspiracy theory much? Shhhhh, nothing to see here.

Very funny, you little punk. :lol:

Okay, okay, globalists. And Zuckerberg.

[desiresjab]

You don't seem to have read my post either. You certainly didn't answer my question: "So based on that statement, Danik, would it be fair to say that you have accepted a position in advance of the evidence?" I will infer that it would be fair to say so based on your actions, which were to leave at once and to return several hours later with several supporting your position (without even bothering to make an argument). It seems to me that collecting links to oppose your view would require only another Google search. I conclude that you have adopted a ready-made political opinion--one that you liked--before examining the facts.

You are welcome to that opinion, by the way, as Clopin is welcome to his. I have seen this argued either way using the same data. My own view is that the creating ready-made political opinions (aka PC) is mainly helpful to a global elite class that seeks to maintain power by doling out sops to demographic groups. In the meantime genuine injustices to women and girls, such as human trafficking and child prostitution, go largely unhindered. Child prostitutes and enslaved women don't vote. And if they try to march in the streets someone will kill them

It's easy to point to politically correct bogeymen, Danik, but the women's issues that cause genuine suffering are global in scope. I have witnessed shocking child prostitution on the streets of Phnom Penh and in Xinjiang. I could fly to Brazil on a locally arranged course of underaged "sex tourism" anytime I wanted. It is more pleasant to point to other countries as a source of problems, but sometimes it really does help to take Jesus' advice and remove the beam from one's own eye before helping with the speck in another's.

Let those child prostitutes vote!