suicide, and why the hell not

[Tyrion Cheddar]

This is intended to be a serious airing of people's personal reflections on the prospect of suicide, as in the thoughts you've had regarding possibly taking your own life one day. The pros and cons, strictly as pertaining to yourself and your life situation. This is not intended to be a thread for the philosophical discussion of suicide. And please, no religion, as one's religious beliefs, if any, are one's own affair.

I'll start off by saying that as I contemplate my future, I can see a number of scenarios in which one day suicide might present a reasonable and practical solution to a problem. These range from profound sorrow and loneliness, to having no close family left, to illness, to age, and just possibly to the state of the world in combination with one or more of the above. I am 52 now and in no hurry to leave this life, but one day, since we all have to go sometime, controlling the time and manner of my death may indeed seem desirable.
As implied, this type of suicide to me is not a tragedy. Rather, it affords control, dignity and hopefully a painless option. I suppose, in the end, if one has really chosen to end things, the method really doesn't matter, and a bullet to the head would presumably be painless--provided one has decent aim. I would, however, prefer what has come to be known as the "peaceful pill," among euthanasia advocates, something that sends you into an opium high, following which you fall asleep, at home, surrounded by your loved ones, and that's that.

[YesNo]

Are you trying to encourage people to commit suicide with this thread?

The reason I am suggesting that is because you do not want any philosophic or religious arguments against suicide to get in your way and you have only presented the "pro" arguments from your philosophic position. I don't see any "con" arguments except that you personally aren't in any hurry. Just because you aren't in any hurry does not mean that some of your potential readers are not in any hurry.

[YesNo]

While taking a walk this evening it occurred to that your motivation may be to encourage older people to die so they are not a burden on insurance and governments for health expenses.

I don't think reducing the number of people who consume health care services will reduce the cost of those health care services. Here is an article by Wolf Richter, "This Is What's Cannibalizing The U.S. Economy": http://seekingalpha.com/article/3988935-cannibalizing-u-s-economy

My take from that article is this: If there is less demand for medicines pharmaceutical companies will simply increase the price of those medicines.

If that is correct and you are interested in reducing public expenditure for health care, you should focus on the real cause which is not the people being treated, but the price increases for medicines.

[heartwing]

I want to grow old and become a burden to others and my economy! Hells yeah! It is my right, baby.

[desiresjab]

Finding the suicide you want is a real problem these days.

[YesNo]

I want to grow old and become a burden to others and my economy! Hells yeah! It is my right, baby.

I look at the old as cash cows for the medical profession. I don't see why the medical profession would want them to die. And that helps the economy the same way having children helps the economy in terms of education. But if there aren't enough children, just increase the price of education.

[cacian]

we are a nation of pessimist and unfortunately suicide is one result out of it
it is however never the answer because not one thing positive comes out of it.
it is a sad act that involves more then one person and that is not a good thing
we as people are supposed to lead by example so others after us learn improve and benefit from it and in this case suicide fails to do just that.
so no i do not agree and profit from agreeing that suicide is the ultimate bettering, the quick way out, for the human misery.

[desiresjab]

we are a nation of pessimist and unfortunately suicide is one result out of it
it is however never the answer because not one thing positive comes out of it.
it is a sad act that involves more then one person and that is not a good thing
we as people are supposed to lead by example so others after us learn improve and benefit from it and in this case suicide fails to do just that.
so no i do not agree and profit from agreeing that suicide is the ultimate bettering, the quick way out, for the human misery.

You have to admit, for some people suicide is the mannerly thing to do.

[desiresjab]

Another thing is, there are quite a few optimistic suicides in this world. Don't go around thinking they are all pessimists. For instance, did you ever know a suicide who killed himself because he thought it would make things worse? No. That's because more suicides are optimists than pessimists.

[Danik 2016]

Beware me of optimistic suicides, whatever is meant by that!

[YesNo]

we are a nation of pessimist and unfortunately suicide is one result out of it
it is however never the answer because not one thing positive comes out of it.
it is a sad act that involves more then one person and that is not a good thing
we as people are supposed to lead by example so others after us learn improve and benefit from it and in this case suicide fails to do just that.
so no i do not agree and profit from agreeing that suicide is the ultimate bettering, the quick way out, for the human misery.

I agree with this. Suicide is a sign of pessimism.

[cacian]

Another thing is, there are quite a few optimistic suicides in this world. Don't go around thinking they are all pessimists. For instance, did you ever know a suicide who killed himself because he thought it would make things worse? No. That's because more suicides are optimists than pessimists.

how is one taking their lives of their own accord is optimism?

[desiresjab]

how is one taking their lives of their own accord is optimism?

The optimism is oblique, for sure. A person suffering from painful debilitation in this world who believes strongly in a next world, can kill himself an optimist. Situations are easy to concoct. Anyone who feels they have become a complete burden to their families, can kill themselves with great hopes for those families. How immoral or tragic is it for a seventy-five year old in great pain and diagnosed with a terminal and rapidly deteriorating condition to do this?

I doubt there has ever been a suicide without some degree of optimism in it, whether for the afterlife, for those who you release from bondage, or for the mere cessation of pain. Suicide signals giving up on one's personal life, and this only means pessimism regarding that. Optimism, however, is a wider subject than one's own life. Ask any parent. At least 100,000 people die everday. Every one of them dies an optimist or a pessimist regarding the future. This is exactly why old people, to a far greater extent than young people, are obsessed with the news and politics. They act just like they are going to be around 5 or 10 years from now.

[YesNo]

The optimism is oblique, for sure. A person suffering from painful debilitation in this world who believes strongly in a next world, can kill himself an optimist. Situations are easy to concoct. Anyone who feels they have become a complete burden to their families, can kill themselves with great hopes for those families. How immoral or tragic is it for a seventy-five year old in great pain and diagnosed with a terminal and rapidly deteriorating condition to do this?

I doubt there has ever been a suicide without some degree of optimism in it, whether for the afterlife, for those who you release from bondage, or for the mere cessation of pain. Suicide signals giving up on one's personal life, and this only means pessimism regarding that. Optimism, however, is a wider subject than one's own life. Ask any parent. At least 100,000 people die everday. Every one of them dies an optimist or a pessimist regarding the future. This is exactly why old people, to a far greater extent than young people, are obsessed with the news and politics. They act just like they are going to be around 5 or 10 years from now.

I view it as despair, or pessimism, related to their lives. There is nothing oblique about that pessimism that would turn it into optimism. This even goes for people who believe in an afterlife or reincarnation. If they have such beliefs they need to submit to whatever Gods they relate to.

The idea of being a burden on others is the main reason not to politically allow suicides especially for terminally ill people. Don't even open this door for them. This avoids the temptation of a healthy person insisting that someone who is old or sick commit suicide so they do not have to take care of that person or pay taxes to support the care of that person. Suggesting that other people commit suicide since it would make one's own life better bothers me and I think leads to political justification to promote or force suicides on a large group of people.

One has to ask would it really make the survivor's life better after the suicide? Earlier in the thread I posted a link suggesting that the public costs of maintaining these people would not decrease just because there were fewer people to take care of. Prices would simply increase. Prices reflect the need of caregivers to make a living, not the presence of people needing care.

One more point: suggesting that others commit suicide is to imply that we know what life is all about especially for those people we think should die. In a thread that starts out saying we are not allowed to provide philosophic or religious arguments this implies to me that those promoting suicide for others do not know and do not even care to find out what life is about.

[desiresjab]

I do not suggest suicide for anyone, or as a general solution to social or personal ills, as you seem to imply. Maybe you just react strongly because you have developed strong prohibitions.

Using antonyms is a matter of perspective. The person who kills himself actually has hopes and expectations. In total, his optimisim is far outweighed by his pessimism, but of course it exists, as in it is something he feels and thinks, because it is a mistake to think of great pessimism obliterating or subtracting from a small grain of optimism. It is not a problem in subtraction. Both types of consciousness exist to the apparent end in humans, I believe, sometimes in wildly disparate proportions. Yes, the man who commits suicide is more pessimistic than he is optimistic, but in hope itself there is a grain of optimism.

Legislated suicide and coerced suicide are pretty ugly. Yet a personal committment to suicide can be a noble thing. Of course I do not recommend it. Suicide is something you can only recommend to yourself. If you have not read Camus' The Myth Of Sysiphus, it explores the subject philosophically. That is what I have done. I have not recommended social or practical measures, which seem to be your main concern in the arena of discussion. I remember Camus said one could always surmount your fate with scorn. Don't come at me--Camus said it.

I do not guarantee that surmounting one's fate with scorn is even one of the noble reasons for suicide. Whose subjectivity is more important? The suicide and the survivor both remain sure of their convictions.

The despair required to go through with it--it was a long journey. That is another idea Camus looks at.

Most suicides should and could have been prevented, is my social take, lad. If I had back the musicians I have known personally who took the big plunge, I would have a full band, and it would be a good one, happy to play the music that now interests me while bringing good stuff to the table. It hurts to think about my lovely lads who did not have to die. I know they thought they did at the time, but they were wrong because we are not gods, and it could have been sweet for them now.

In general suicide is no good, but in special cases it remains noble and logical. If a person who is deaf and blind can figure out how to kill themselves, who am I to say they should not? See Dalton Trumbo's Jhonny Got His Gun, for a dose of blindness and deafness and a bit more. See it or read it. Trumbo was a victim of McCarthy's great Red scare in Hollywood. He was a top writer who got the shaft.

[YesNo]

I don't want to suggest that you recommend suicide for anyone.

As I am thinking about this thread, if I am not allowed to offer philosophic or religious arguments against suicide, then I have only the political and economic arguments. The economic arguments would revolve around giving caregivers something to do for which they could at least earn a living. The political arguments are more arbitrary, but no less powerful: I would simply vote against and reject any political party that offered suicide as an option.

[Danik 2016]

"The idea of being a burden on others is the main reason not to politically allow suicides especially for terminally ill people. Don't even open this door for them. This avoids the temptation of a healthy person insisting that someone who is old or sick commit suicide so they do not have to take care of that person or pay taxes to support the care of that person. Suggesting that other people commit suicide since it would make one's own life better bothers me and I think leads to political justification to promote or force suicides on a large group of people."

This is something that worries me greatly, as the negative social mood worsens and as an door may be opened by the assisted dying programs.
To do T. C. justice, I think this time he is not thinking of biofuelling anyone besides eventually in a distant future himself. He is mainly scared about his own future, now he realises that he himself is growing older.
But I personally think, as long as we have loved ones we have also very strong reasons to stay alive.

[desiresjab]

I don't want to suggest that you recommend suicide for anyone.

As I am thinking about this thread, if I am not allowed to offer philosophic or religious arguments against suicide, then I have only the political and economic arguments. The economic arguments would revolve around giving caregivers something to do for which they could at least earn a living. The political arguments are more arbitrary, but no less powerful: I would simply vote against and reject any political party that offered suicide as an option.

We stand together on this. People are going to become poorer, their standards of living will decrease, and there will be enhanced pressure on the elderly to off themselves. It could become an accepted attitude. Human consciousness has framed many attitudes about death and suicide. We are capable of them all, especially since we laugh at the notion that we are.

I have to point out that politics is a branch of philosophy, and economics (if I am not mistaken) is a branch of politics or its own branch or sub branch of philosophy. There is nothing left to argue with.

Philosophy is merely ideas. If you asked a student what she was majoring in and she replied ideas, she could only mean philosophy. Nothing can be argued without ideas. We would have to argue telepathcially, and even then I cannot imagine the content of our disccusions without resort to ideas. The thread has impossible constraints, which can only be ignored if we are to discuss the subject.

[mtpspur]

Entry removed.

[caddy_caddy]

"and that's that."
It 's not about being optimistic or pessimistic, it's abt having the courage to do it.
If I have had the courage to do it , I would have done it .
do it and " that's that "

[YesNo]

One could also say it has to do with "selfishness". If I were selfish enough, I might have done it. If I use "selfish" rather than "having courage" the action being done is seen in a different way.

There are noble forms of suicide. They involve protecting the lives of other people. The suicidal desires that come to mind in this thread are not focused on protecting anyone's life and leave a message to the survivors that life itself is not worth having.

[caddy_caddy]

Courage to face death.
Apart from the religious point of view,I think putting an end to one's life is a basic human rights.After all this is MY life ,My body and soul.yes indeed to some life is not worth having so why not ?

[YesNo]

Courage to face death.
Apart from the religious point of view,I think putting an end to one's life is a basic human rights.After all this is MY life ,My body and soul.yes indeed to some life is not worth having so why not ?

As I see it, it is not entirely your life. You are not an individual, but part of a larger group. So, I would say "selfishness" rather than "courage" fits what most suicides do unless they can find a way to make their suicide "noble". To do that it would have to promote life in some way and not be a message promoting death.

[caddy_caddy]

who said that death is sth bad . This life is a prison and death is the ultimate freedom. The larger group you're part of will carry on in their life after ur death. life won't stop.

[Iain Sparrow]

As I see it, it is not entirely your life. You are not an individual, but part of a larger group. So, I would say "selfishness" rather than "courage" fits what most suicides do unless they can find a way to make their suicide "noble". To do that it would have to promote life in some way and not be a message promoting death.

Most suicides have little to do with any of that.
The main cause is mental illness.

[caddy_caddy]

or maybe when they get mature enough to understand life itself. This reminds me of Addie's father saying in Faulkner's AS I Lay Dying: the only reason for living is to stay dead for a long time

[Iain Sparrow]

or maybe when they get mature enough to understand life itself. This reminds me of Addie's father saying in Faulkner's AS I Lay Dying: the only reason for living is to stay dead for a long time

Depends upon how vivid life is to you, and if no matter the circumstance it always remains precious.
Looking at it as pragmatically as I can, you can always commit suicide on down the road... what's the rush?

The only circumstance I can imagine contemplating suicide, is if I had to suffer excruciating physical pain for a prolonged time... or if Donald Trump becomes our next President. :)

[Calidore]

This life is a prison and death is the ultimate freedom. stop.

Alternatively, unchanging, unbreakable death could be considered the ultimate prison.

[caddy_caddy]

well, I always ask myself : why should I live? and find no important reasons. Life is precious itself but u should find a reason to live it . Some people have no reasons simply.

[caddy_caddy]

Alternatively, unchanging, unbreakable death could be considered the ultimate prison.
well , if u believe in the life after death that wouldn't be the case

[Douglas18]

I've had family members, relatives, and close friends commit suicide; and it's certainly not a laughing matter for those of us who are left behind!