GEN 25 - 28 "JACOB AND ESAU" 2 boys, 2 nations

[JacobBenAvraham]

SHABBAT SHALOM: Parasha "Toldot" (generations) 'JACOB AND ESAU" 2 BOYS, 2 NATIONS

GEN 25:19 - 28:9..................MAL 1:1 - 2:7.......................ROM 9:6 - 13

We see in this Parasha the birth of Jacob and Esau, but before this, we can see a bit of the repetition of "like father, like son" behavior. Isaac also told a "half-lie" to AviMelech,

"Riv'kah is my sister" well, the king found out, fortunately, nothing really bad happened, only that later on, out of jealousy, the men of AviMelech filled in the wells that Abraham had dug previously, we can see that Isaac was not a war-like man, he just dug them again, if there was strife, he would just move on. The name "AviMelech" means "My father is king". I think we can all agree that "Adonai-Elohim is AviMelech" since "He is OUR KING, since He is OUR FATHER, the correct word to use would be "Aveinu Malcheinu"

To Isaac and Rebecca, are born Jacob and Esau, two brothers, but distinct characters and destinies. One to look up to God, look for the things of God (even though he had to go through Uncle Laban's school of hard knocks) and to form "Am Yisrael" who lead to finally Mashiach Yeshua! (Baruch HaShem!)....and the other...to be a "man of the earth, an earthly man, with earthly/carnal desires, not desiring the "things of above" but the "things of the earth, material things, disinterested in God and the things of God.

If we know our Bible, we know their names; JACOB and ESAU, when we look at the Hebrew we see some interesting things;

JACOB is YA'AKOV from the root word "Akeiv" which means "heel" from a spiritual stand point, we can look at the "heel" as part of the foot, which is planted firmly on the ground, when one grows, a person grows "upward" from the feet upward, as did Ya'akov, it took some time, not to be a cheat and trickster, yet he did mature into "Israel" and fathered the 12 tribes.......on the other hand............

ESAU in Hebrew is ESAV, is also interesting, a similar word is "eisev" which means "grass" which grows from the earth. ESAV is also called EDOM, which points to "redness" a "red earth" EDOM is similar to ADAM, and ADAMAH, which also remind us of "dust, earth, red" Esau was a hunter, a man who knew the country, ran in the hills, hunted game yet Jacob was a "stay-at-home-and-help-mama" kind of guy. I mean, nothing wrong with that. We could compare Esau to a Hill-Billy mountaineer with a keg of whiskey hidden up there in the hills, a tobacco chewing, cussing dude who loves women and the things of the world, that was Esau. Jacob took advantage, and bought his "birth-right" using lentil stew, (which was also a red color stew) since Esau cared nothing for the birth-right, he sold it quite cheap, kinda like selling a 2015 Mercedes for a bicycle.

But we see that God has his perfect will in all of this, even in the womb, God told Rebecca

"two kinds of people will come out of the womb, the older will be stronger, yet the older will serve the young" we can see the two kinds of people/nations who came from Jacob and Esau, very interesting;

from JACOB: 12 tribes of Israel, David, Solomon, (who built the temple)...and finally Yeshua! and today we have modern Israel, and the descendants of Jacob who are like the "stars of Heaven" many live in Israel and many outside of Israel, scattered among the nations still, yet still maintaining their identity,

from ESAU: Edom, Amalek, Haman (the Agagite) Rome,(which destroyed the temple)

Even though they were stronger than Israel, TODAY...No one dares messes with Israel! nor the IDF! and in the future, ISRAEL will be the spot light, and "ALL NATIONS/PEOPLES WILL HONOR AND SERVE OUR LORD YESHUA, in ISRAEL.

We can look at the blessings of both Jacob and Esau, Jacob tricked and deceived his own father to get the blessing, even using the name of God deceitfully, guided by his mother Rebecca, did she do right? or wrong? I'll let you ponder on that one, but we will see later on that the "chickens come home to roost" as the saying goes" what "goes around comes around" but I'll save that for a later Parasha
____________________________________________ _______________________________

MALACHI 1:1-2:7

here the prophet quotes Moshe's words "YET JACOB I HAVE LOVED, BUT ESAU I HAVE HATED" one could ask, but why? isn't God a God of love and forgiveness? yes, but we must understand that the LORD GOD Adonai-Elohim-Yeshua who is the creator of all, can read into our minds, and knows the thoughts of our hearts, and could see "rejection" in the heart of Esau, so, before Adonai rejected Esau, (which is what the word "hate" means in this instance) Esau had made his mind up to reject God.

Are we offering polluted and foul sacrifices to our Holy God? today, we do not offer animal sacrifices, but sacrifices of "praise" and "good works (mitzvoth) and use of our spiritual gifts" do we use them the "best we can"? or "do we give HIM our leftovers, or "half-hearted" service, ?

____________________________________________ _____________________________

ROMANS 9:6-13

The chosen seed was/is through Isaac, through Jacob, Not all of Abraham's descendants are considered "B'nei Elohim" we see the descendants of Ishmael, the Arab nations, many of whom are part of Isis, Al Qaeda, Hamaz, etc, and HATE Israel, (yet not all arabs, many are full of love for Israel and many have accepted Yeshua as Messiah) But It isn't the blood line that determines our relationship with the KING of Kings and LORD of Lords, but our heart and spirit, we enter into a personal relationship with God through Yeshua by being "born again" in our spirit, and our renewed spirit directs our faith walk and that gives us all rights to being part of the "Commonwealth of Israel" as One (Echad) family of believers.

Shabbat shalom.................rabbi Ben Avraham

[HCabret]

This is extremely offensive to all Jewish people everywhere. Jesus is a false messiah.

[Whifflingpin]

"Jesus is a false messiah."
That is a statement deliberately intended to be offensive to all Christians everywhere.
Fortunately, few people, Christians, Jews or others, take offence at differences of belief or religious practice, otherwise multicultural societies and international relations would be impossible.

[HCabret]

"Jesus is a false messiah."
That is a statement deliberately intended to be offensive to all Christians everywhere.
Fortunately, few people, Christians, Jews or others, take offence at differences of belief or religious practice, otherwise multicultural societies and international relations would be impossible.
First of all, Christians and Christianity do not have a monopoly on the belief that Jesus is a messiah. All muslims also believe that Jesus is a messiah that his second coming is imminent.

This being said, all Jews reject everything about Jesus and all Jews believe that Jesus was just one of many false messiah claiments. If you think that Jewish was/is a messiah, then you are automatically not a Jew.

The OP's poster is an evangelical christian who is attempting to appropriate Jewish culture in order to force the conversion of the Jews to his religion. Jacob's posts are nothing less than anti-semitism and should not be tolerated on this site either by the owners or the other posters anymore than racism, homophobia, misogyny or any other kind of bigotry.

Jacob is NOT Jewish. He is a fundementalist evangelical christian, who is hell bent on converting all Jewish people to christianity.

[Eiseabhal]

He's trying to convert me not you. I don't mind him trying. He's interesting.

[HCabret]

He's trying to convert me not you. I don't mind him trying. He's interesting.

I do mind him trying. He's actively trying to destroy Judaism and force Jews to worship Jesus.

If you find Messianism interesting then fine, but this is not a good place for soapboxing.

Jacob is NOT a Jew.

[Whifflingpin]

"First of all, Christians and Christianity do not have a monopoly on the belief that Jesus is a messiah. All muslims also believe that Jesus is a messiah that his second coming is imminent."
So that just multiplies the offensiveness of the statement "Jesus is a false messiah." It does not mitigate it.

"Jacob is NOT a Jew."
JacobBenAvram described himself recently as Messianic-Jewish, as were the first followers of Jesus. Jesus was Jewish. His first followers and supporters were all Jewish. The greatest of the early Christian writers was Jewish. All of those were brought up as Jews and believed that Jesus was the messiah foretold in Jewish scriptures. Christianity is firmly based in Jewish thought and culture and arises out of it, rather than appropriates it. An impartial visitor from outer space would almost certainly conclude that, in religious terms, Christianity was a Jewish sect. JacobBenAvram quotes passages of Judaeo-Christian scriptures and comments on them, which, I understand, is the purpose of this forum.

If, and it is not for me to say, JacobBenAvram comes close to boundary of forum rules, then it is because he sometimes shifts from the literary/religious/moral sphere of the forum into the sphere of current politics. He conflates (if that's the word) the spiritual New Jerusalem with the political entity that has its capital in the geographical Jerusalem, implying thereby that Christians are bound to support the state of Israel. Whatever that is, it cannot be called anti-Semitic.

[HCabret]

"First of all, Christians and Christianity do not have a monopoly on the belief that Jesus is a messiah. All muslims also believe that Jesus is a messiah that his second coming is imminent."
So that just multiplies the offensiveness of the statement "Jesus is a false messiah." It does not mitigate it.All Jews believe that Jesus was just one of many false messiah claiments. It is offensive to Jewish people to say that Jews think Jesus was a messiah.

Muslims and Christians are free to believe in which ever messiah they want, but that doesn't mean that Jews have to blindly follow along.


"Jacob is NOT a Jew."
JacobBenAvram described himself recently as Messianic-Jewish, as were the first followers of Jesus. Jesus was Jewish. His first followers and supporters were all Jewish. The greatest of the early Christian writers was Jewish. All of those were brought up as Jews and believed that Jesus was the messiah foretold in Jewish scriptures. Christianity is firmly based in Jewish thought and culture and arises out of it, rather than appropriates it. An impartial visitor from outer space would almost certainly conclude that, in religious terms, Christianity was a Jewish sect. JacobBenAvram quotes passages of Judaeo-Christian scriptures and comments on them, which, I understand, is the purpose of this forum.Messianics are by definition NOT Jewish. The Supreme Court of Israel has ruled this explicitly.

The term "Judeo-Christian" is also extremely offensive to Jews. Why do Christians feel the need to appropriate Jewish culture? Christians reject large portions of Judaism and then get mad when people refuse to call refer to Christians as Jewish. Judaism and Christianity are two completely separate religions.


If, and it is not for me to say, JacobBenAvram comes close to boundary of forum rules, then it is because he sometimes shifts from the literary/religious/moral sphere of the forum into the sphere of current politics. He conflates (if that's the word) the spiritual New Jerusalem with the political entity that has its capital in the geographical Jerusalem, implying thereby that Christians are bound to support the state of Israel. Whatever that is, it cannot be called anti-Semitic.Messianism is extremely anti-semitic. Their stated goal is to convert all Jewish people to christianity. Israel is a Jewish state, not a Christian state.



What is your true purpose here Jacob? Is it to proselytize your religion or is to discuss literature?

[Whifflingpin]

"Messianics are by definition NOT Jewish. The Supreme Court of Israel has ruled this explicitly."
But has God ruled it? The Supreme Court of Israel has no jurisdiction outside Israel, and, unless the Mods say otherwise, no right to tell the people of this forum what they may believe or what they may call themselves.

[HCabret]

"Messianics are by definition NOT Jewish. The Supreme Court of Israel has ruled this explicitly."
But has God ruled it? The Supreme Court of Israel has no jurisdiction outside Israel, and, unless the Mods say otherwise, no right to tell the people of this forum what they may believe or what they may call themselves.
Which god? Who other than the supreme court of Israel has any sort of authority in determining who is and isn't Jewish?

I am simply rebutting Jacob's antisemitic spam. Jacob has no right to tell Jews that they have to convert to christianity.

[Eiseabhal]

So he is an apostate. A dangerous criminal indeed. Do you feel yourself curiously drawn? Often the things we hate are but mirrors of ourselves. He seems to me to be well-read in what he is examining.

[HCabret]

So he is an apostate. A dangerous criminal indeed. Do you feel yourself curiously drawn? Often the things we hate are but mirrors of ourselves. He seems to me to be well-read in what he is examining.
He's an antisemite. He's trying to destroy judaism by converting all the jews to christianity.

He has the right to be as christian as he wants, but his antisemitic posts are extremely offensive.

[Eiseabhal]

All? The ambition of the rascal! And you can if you please ... refuse.

[prendrelemick]

Which god? Who other than the supreme court of Israel has any sort of authority in determining who is and isn't Jewish?

The individual concerned. Can any court tell a man what his beliefs are?


I am simply rebutting Jacob's antisemitic spam. Jacob has no right to tell Jews that they have to convert to christianity.

No, but he has the right to suggest it, and Jews have the right to say "No Thank you", and everybody can get on with their lives.

[HCabret]

All? The ambition of the rascal! And you can if you please ... refuse.
Why must he attempt to convert any Jew to christianity? Have Jews not suffered enough under the hands of christians?

[HCabret]

The individual concerned. Can any court tell a man what his beliefs are?I'd say that the Israeli government is the only major authority for Judaism in the world. Saying that Israel can't define who is and isn't a Jew is like saying that the Roman Catholic Church can't determine who is and isn't catholic.



No, but he has the right to suggest it, and Jews have the right to say "No Thank you", and everybody can get on with their lives.I fully understand. He has the right to be as anti-semitic as he pleases. I have the right to call him out for his anti-semitism.


This community should be built on mutual respect for one another, not on the denegration of other people's beliefs. Antisemitism should not be tolerated anymore than racism, misogyny, hompphobia or any other bigotry by this forum. Judaism has been around for at least 3200 years and there is no reason why this number should not continue to rise.

[prendrelemick]

I agree, I think intolerance wrong too. I would never denegrate Jacob's beliefs or his willingness to share them with others. Even if I don't agree with him.


I struggle to see how his original post is anti semitic at all. Have I missed something?

[prendrelemick]

Why must he attempt to convert any Jew to christianity? Have Jews not suffered enough under the hands of christians?

It's not that he "must" it is that he chooses to, and that is important. He lives in a religiously tolerent and free society. Unlike say...Nazi Germany.

[HCabret]

I agree, I think intolerance wrong too. I would never denegrate Jacob's beliefs or his willingness to share them with others. Even if I don't agree with him.


I struggle to see how his original post is anti semitic at all. Have I missed something?He is promoting Messianism. Which is a belief system whose goal is to convert all Jews to Christianity. Messianism is widely seen as being anti-semitic among the Jewish community. http://moshiach-truth.blogspot.com/2008/05/why-messianic-judaism-is-anti-semitic.html

[HCabret]

It's not that he "must" it is that he chooses to, and that is important. He lives in a religiously tolerent and free society. Unlike say...Nazi Germany.
He is not being tolerant of Judaism or Jewish people's culture at all. He has continually made these posts in an attempt offend Jewish people. He has repeatedly used the tetragrammaton with zero regard and has repeatedly assigned false characteristics to Judaism and Jewish people's beliefs.

Why must I be tolerant of him, while he is allowed to be as intolerant towards Jews as he pleases?

[Eiseabhal]

Speaking as a Druid I have not noticed any "force" being used by the analyst calling himself Jacob. I would prefer you said Hun when looking for folks to blame. Although my father survived the last war by the skin of his teeth he was not healthy as a result of the oil he'd had to swim in and my mother's life was hard. She did what she could. She had lost two older brothers in 1940 when the Frogs were deserting the battlefield. You feel aggrieved? Don't get me started. I now worship the sun and moon but I still find Jacob interesting and he can try to convert me if he wants. I doubt that he'll succeed.

[HCabret]

Speaking as a Druid I have not noticed any "force" being used by the analyst calling himself Jacob. I would prefer you said Hun when looking for folks to blame. Although my father survived the last war by the skin of his teeth he was not healthy as a result of the oil he'd had to swim in and my mother's life was hard. She did what she could. She had lost two older brothers in 1940 when the Frogs were deserting the battlefield. You feel aggrieved? Don't get me started. I now worship the sun and moon but I still find Jacob interesting and he can try to convert me if he wants. I doubt that he'll succeed.It is against the rules if this forum to advertise. This is not the appropriate forum for religious prostlyiezation, this is a literature forum.

[prendrelemick]

He has stated the tenets of his faith ( Messianism, so you tell me) and referred to the literature - the Bible. This is the religious thread. I still can't see the problem. Why don't you present some counter arguments? It would be interesting.

[HCabret]

He has stated the tenets of his faith ( Messianism, so you tell me) and referred to the literature - the Bible. This is the religious thread. I still can't see the problem. Why don't you present some counter arguments? It would be interesting.
He is conflating christianity and judaism together. Messianism is not syncretic as it takes nothing from judaism which mainstream christianity had not already taken. Messianism is exactly the same as evangelical christianity. Messianism is a wolf in sheep's clothing.

My evidence is that the Israeli Supreme Court explicitly ruled that Messianics are not Jewish. http://www.nytimes.com/1989/12/27/world/israeli-court-rules-jews-for-jesus-cannot-automatically-be-citizens.html

The Jewish community widely believes Messianism to be anti-semitic. http://moshiach-truth.blogspot.com/2008/05/why-messianic-judaism-is-anti-semitic.html

[Eiseabhal]

Surely you mean a sheep in sheep's clothing

[HCabret]

Surely you mean a sheep in sheep's clothing
That's not what I wrote. Did you even read my post?

[HCabret]

Surely you mean a sheep in sheep's clothing
The stated goal of messianics is to convert jews to christianity.
Messianics want to trick Jews to worship jesus.

The evangelical group "Jews for Jesus"'s number one stated "core value" is "Direct Jewish evangelism as our priority". http://www.jewsforjesus.org/about-jews-for-jesus/who-we-are/corevalues

These people are openly trying to convert Jewish people to evangelical christianity.
http://www.adl.org/special_reports/jews4jesus/jfj_complete.pdf
http://jewsforjudaism.org/web/mainpages/missionary_cult_challenge.html

Beliefnet states: "If you believe Jesus is the messiah, died for anyone else’s sins, is God’s chosen son, or any other dogma of Christian belief, you are not Jewish. You are Christian. Period."
http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/virtualtalmud/2006/08/jews-for-jesus-whos-who-whats-what.html

The Jewish Community Relations Council of New York stated "On several occasions leaders of the four major Jewish movements have signed on to joint statements opposing Hebrew-Christian theology and tactics. In part they said: 'Though Hebrew Christianity claims to be a form of Judaism, it is not ... It deceptively uses the sacred symbols of Jewish observance ... as a cover to convert Jews to Christianity, a belief system antithetical to Judaism ... Hebrew Christians are in radical conflict with the communal interests and the destiny of the Jewish people. They have crossed an unbridgeable chasm by accepting another religion. Despite this separation, they continue to attempt to convert their former co-religionists.'"
Source: Frequently Asked Questions About Hebrew-Christian Missionaries & "Jews for Jesus". Jewish Community Relations Council of New York. Spiritual Deception Prevention Project.

In 2006, actor Jackie Mason sued "Jews For Jesus" after they used his likeness in one of their brochures trying to pass him off as a messianic. Mason later stated that "[t]here's no such thing as a Jew for Jesus. It's like saying a black man is for the KKK. You can't be a table and a chair. You're either a Jew or a Gentile." http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/tags/religion/ http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/life/people/2006-12-05-mason_x.htm

In 2014, "Jews for Jesus" published a YouTube video which depicted a long-haired Jesus dragging a large wooden cross appears in the film until an Auschwitz extermination camp guard sends him to the gas chambers and says "just another Jew" in German. The video was so bad that Fox News refused to show an advertisement for the video on their air.
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/1.586953
http://forward.com/opinion/196708/when-jesus-died-at-auschwitz/

[Eiseabhal]

Anyway I'm sure many Jews can think for themselves and the Js for J are probably spectacularly unsuccessful. Here's a tale. In the tip of the Americas once lived various tribes. Pagans like myself: Yaghans Selknam etc. None of these now exist. Shot off like ... pagans. One of the principal shooters was a Mr. Popper. I'm sure he would pass the test of the "authorities" to determine which big religious group he belonged to. I mean you no ill (Me being a pagan sun worshipper and all - How could I) but people have the right to change their minds about any set of beliefs. Why would anyone have a phobia of the proselyte?

[ennison]

Well Eiseabhal I'm sure it would take a lot to convert you to anything! Druid! Beolach do sheann sheanamhathair orrasan!
Have you ever been to Callanis? Next time you're up we'll go and imbibe the astronomical sacrificial air. Leave Monsieur Cabaret alone why don't you?
Kurd? Maybe there is a meaning there that goes straight over my heid.

[HCabret]

Anyway I'm sure many Jews can think for themselves and the Js for J are probably spectacularly unsuccessful. Here's a tale. In the tip of the Americas once lived various tribes. Pagans like myself: Yaghans Selknam etc. None of these now exist. Shot off like ... pagans. One of the principal shooters was a Mr. Popper. I'm sure he would pass the test of the "authorities" to determine which big religious group he belonged to. I mean you no ill (Me being a pagan sun worshipper and all - How could I) but people have the right to change their minds about any set of beliefs. Why would anyone have a phobia of the proselyte?
I don't like anti-semitism or any other flavor of bigotry. Messianics are actively seeking to rid the world of Jews by making everyone into christians.

Jacob is NOT a Jew in any way, shape, or form. The only way for him to become a Jew would be to convert to Judaism. You can't be a Christian and a Jew at the same time.

[HCabret]

He has stated the tenets of his faith ( Messianism, so you tell me) and referred to the literature - the Bible. This is the religious thread. I still can't see the problem. Why don't you present some counter arguments? It would be interesting.
"The Bible" is a collection of literature, not a single work unto itself. It's contents were written over thousands of years by many different authors in many different languages. The word "bible" itself derives from the Koine Greek words τὰ βιβλία, which means "the books". Koine Greek was the language which the Christian "new" testament was written, so the term "bible" most properly refers to the Christian corpus of literature as opposed to any other religion's corpus. Most Christian collections have at least 66 books, with most Christian bibles including far more than 66 books.

The "Jewish Bible" or "Hebrew Bible" as it is commonly referred to by Gentiles is more commonly refered to as "Tanakh" by Jewish people. The Tanakh has 24 books, many of which are not included in virtually any Christian collections.

Another difference between Jewish literature and Christian literature is the acceptance of the Oral Torah, or "Torah she-be-`al peh". The major works of the Oral Torah are the Mishnah and Gemara, which are collected in the Talmud. The Talmud is the preeminent text in all of Judaism. All Jews believe that the Talmud was given directly to Moses from their god while he was on top of Mount Sinai.

Sources: https://books.google.com/books?id=60iVk1p8Y9IC&pg=PR55&dq=%22dual+torah%22+%22Oral+Torah%22+%22Torah+she-be-al-peh%22+%22Written+Torah%22+%22Torah+she-bikhtav%22+%22Torah+she-be-%60al+peh%22+Moses+God+the+explanations&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiNwObH6cfJAhXs44MKHdbrAF0Q6AEIIjAA http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/11750-oral-law http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=bible