Where do you get yours?

[prendrelemick]

Newspaper reporting has become so extreme in its political bias and so utterly negative, that it is virtually useless as a source of information. "The popular press" has abandoned all pretence of publishing "news" in any serious sense of the word and has recently found an even deeper bottom to race to. The BBC is still excellent, but is coming under more and more Murdoch inspired political pressure, and will not be able to continue as it has.

So I follow a range of journalists and commentators on twitter -and follow links to articles that catch their eye (often in the Huff Post). But in doing so I have become my own editor and my own bias is creeping in - I enjoy reading stuff I agree with.

I was wondering where people go to keep themselves informed?

[Emil Miller]

If I buy a newspaper at all it is usually the Daily Telegraph or The Times but I find Le Monde more informative than either even though it's slightly left of centre. I also read French magazines such as L'Express and Le Point for in depth coverage of specific news items that interest me. I seldom read the tabloids as they are usually full of nonsense concerning 'celebrities' and other nonentities but sometimes I will pick up a Metro if one is left on a train, because I like reading the item where people write in requesting a date with someone they took a shine to on their travels to work e.g. Small ginger guy wearing a kilt would like to meet the tall black guy with the shark's teeth necklace using the 8.30 train to Waterloo on Tuesday.

[prendrelemick]

That is the best bit - and very tempting too -to make something up and send it in.

[YesNo]

I get most of my news from my wife who gets it from some internet sites she reads.

We stopped our cable subscription some time ago and so we don't have the noise in the background anymore. I remember getting a call from the cable company saying the rates were going up but the guy explained that it's alright because he was going to "help me out" with some deal. My wife wanted to know what the guy wanted. I told her they were going to raise the cable rates. She took the phone and told him to cancel the subscription, something I had been wanting for some time.

[prendrelemick]

Husband cons wife into giving up cable shock!!!

[Ecurb]

"Now that we've given up cable, honey, I have to go to the bar whenever I want to watch a football game. What else can I do?"

[Emil Miller]

That is the best bit - and very tempting too -to make something up and send it in.

It may be an exaggeration but not much of one, some of the entries are hilarious.

[YesNo]

I also read French magazines such as L'Express and Le Point for in depth coverage of specific news items that interest me.

I checked the web versions of these. I'll see if my interest continues and then I may subscribe. If nothing else, I can always say I'm trying to improve my French.

I have been reading financial sites more over the past six months. I like Seeking Alpha where commentators of various levels of competence try to rationalize their contradictory views. It is focused on US markets. I don't think this falls under the "news" category, but indirectly you do get news.

When my daughter asks me who I am going to vote for for President next year, Hilary Clinton or Donald Trump, all I can think is this little kid is growing up and becoming political.

[Emil Miller]

I checked the web versions of these. I'll see if my interest continues and then I may subscribe. If nothing else, I can always say I'm trying to improve my French.

I have been reading financial sites more over the past six months. I like Seeking Alpha where commentators of various levels of competence try to rationalize their contradictory views. It is focused on US markets. I don't think this falls under the "news" category, but indirectly you do get news.

When my daughter asks me who I am going to vote for for President next year, Hilary Clinton or Donald Trump, all I can think is this little kid is growing up and becoming political.

People take up French for various reasons but overall it's one of the most sophisticated of European languages and more feminin in its intonation than English or German for example. Phonetically, French women have a head start over others when it concerns l'amour.

As for D.Trump and H. Clinton, I wouldt rule out Jeb Bush: God help us.

[tonywalt]

I like the Daily Telegraph but that is a good question. I (like many) can see through how the media tries to steer the population with use of emotive photographs and force feeding of certain narratives. It's not so much what source of media i choose, but my ability to view events critically, objetively and with good sense - I need this skill.

With so much (too much) information out there, I can only hope that at least half the population has a similar skill set. That said: I'm a firm believer in vagueness on social media in order to keep the peace.

[YesNo]

I checked out the Daily Telegraph's website. It looks similar to Le Point except I understood it better.

If I were going to recommend places where to get information I would probably pick the Chicago Tribune or the New York Times, not that I actually read these newspapers.

I do check out the Chicago Tribune as well as other sites just prior to voting. I want to make sure I know which judges I should vote against rather than doing what one of my friends does and simply vote against all of them. Living in Illinois, it is somewhat easier during presidential elections. By the time the primaries occur here, it is already known which candidates have enough delegates to win the nomination. Usually the one I'd like to vote for has been eliminated long ago.

[Sancho]

Monthlies:
The Atlantic

Weeklies:
The New Yorker

Dailies:
The New York Times
The Wall Street Journal

Background Noise:
CNBC

[Emil Miller]

I like the Daily Telegraph but that is a good question. I (like many) can see through how the media tries to steer the population with use of emotive photographs and force feeding of certain narratives. It's not so much what source of media i choose, but my ability to view events critically, objetively and with good sense - I need this skill.

With so much (too much) information out there, I can only hope that at least half the population has a similar skill set. That said: I'm a firm believer in vagueness on social media in order to keep the peace.


It pays to be circumspect regarding the press, all newspapers are in the business of lies and hyperbole to a greater or lesser degree. My all time favourite being the tabloid headline revelation that a B29 bomber had been found on the moon.

[prendrelemick]

Tony is right you have to make allowences and be aware of the editorial agenda.

I often navigate to The New York Times through a Twitter link, its good for a different perspective (and my french is tres poor).

There are some good independent journalists to follow, who hawk their stuff around and end up posting on the internet, presumably they are not sensational enough for the printed press. I particularly like Peter Jukes, he's like a plucky ack-ack gunner, shooting up at the big bombers overhead - one day Peter, one day.

[HCabret]

The Pawnee Sun.

[YesNo]

I couldn't find the Pawnee Sun. That made me think that some of us must have some odd sources of information.

One of the dangers of trusting papers like The New York Times is that we assume they are too big to not tell the truth, sort of like Volkswagen. And so we trust them.

[Scheherazade]

So I follow a range of journalists and commentators on twitter -and follow links to articles that catch their eye (often in the Huff Post). I do this as well... Also news alerts from BBC. Excellent on the go.

[Emil Miller]

I sometimes check out BBC News in order not to mis items like this:


http://i.imgur.com/V1TCyiH.jpg


Seldom can the words 'No Comment' have been more appropriate.

[YesNo]

Speaking of the BBC, the local library set up a display of all the videos they have that the BBC listed as being the 100 greatest American films: http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/20150720-the-100-greatest-american-films

Some of these I have never heard of. Maybe one of these days I will just force myself to watch "Citizen Kane" which is number one on the list.

They missed some of my favorites as any list would. I would have preferred to see Amy Schumer's "Trainwreck" near the top.

[prendrelemick]

Never heard of Trainwreck, but I bet the brilliant "One from the Heart" isn't on either, (it never is.)

[Emil Miller]

Speaking of the BBC, the local library set up a display of all the videos they have that the BBC listed as being the 100 greatest American films: http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/20150720-the-100-greatest-american-films

Some of these I have never heard of. Maybe one of these days I will just force myself to watch "Citizen Kane" which is number one on the list.

They missed some of my favorites as any list would. I would have preferred to see Amy Schumer's "Trainwreck" near the top.

Why force yourself? Why not simply watch it?

I've written previously on these forums about Kane's greatness and have nothing to add but I also was surprised at some of the entries.

The article poses the question 'Why are the best films the old ones?'
The answer is that they were made for adults and not priapic/gullible teenagers.

It would be interesting were the BBC to compile a list of the 100 best British films.

[YesNo]

I didn't see it on the list. I'll see if I can find it in the library.

The BBC got this right: "America’s films are among its greatest exports." I interpret that, with a certain amount of pride, as saying illusion is one of our greatest exports. We enjoy being fooled which is one reason I don't read the news. The news is too serious and I am too gullible. Life is short. If I want entertainment it might as well be a comedy.

We fooled people and ourselves about weapons of mass destruction. We keep fooling ourselves over and over again about how the towers of bubble in the stock market will eventually reach heaven.

Movies can be said to be alive as long as their illusions continue to stimulate our imaginations. If the conspiracy theorists are correct (and we will find out in a couple of decades when critical documents are declassified) perhaps the number one movie, our greatest achievement, better than Citizen Kane, would have been made in 1969 when Neil Armstrong placed his foot on desert sand and we fooled everyone including ourselves into thinking it was the Moon.

[YesNo]

Why force yourself? Why not simply watch it?


I put it to the top of my list.

[Emil Miller]

[QUOTE=YesNo;1304771]I didn't see it on the list. I'll see if I can find it in the library.

The BBC got this right: "America’s films are among its greatest exports." I interpret that, with a certain amount of pride, as saying illusion is one of our greatest exports. We enjoy being fooled which is one reason I don't read the news. The news is too serious and I am too gullible. Life is short. If I want entertainment it might as well be a comedy.

We fooled people and ourselves about weapons of mass destruction. We keep fooling ourselves over and over again about how the towers of bubble in the stock market will eventually reach heaven.

Movies can be said to be alive as long as their illusions continue to stimulate our imaginations. If the conspiracy theorists are correct (and we will find out in a couple of decades when critical documents are declassified) perhaps the number one movie, our greatest achievement, better than Citizen Kane, would have been made in 1969 when Neil Armstrong placed his foot on desert sand and we fooled everyone including ourselves into thinking it was the Moon.[/QUOTE


]

Citizen Kane exists on a number of levels but even as plain entertainment it's a great story about how ' the child is the father of the man'.
I agee that the cinema is an illusion but then so is all art, and life would be greatly diminished without it.
I knew someone who also didn't read the news, which he described as all doom and gloom, and said he was better off without it.
He may well have been right but it's an addiction that's difficult to shake off.
I would doubt that classified information regarding the USA's mooon project would ever be released if it were shown to be a colossal confidence trick. The blow to the national ego would be far too devastating.
British documents relating to the notorious Profumo affair were released according to the 'Thirty Year Rule' but two files were retained on grounds of national security.

[kiki1982]

I read The Independent, sometimes The Daily Telegraph. And for entertainment The Daily Mail. No news in it, though, try as they might to pass it off as that. ;)

I also read De Standaard Flemish newspaper for news mainly from Belgium.

We watch the BBC too.

I used to read The Daily Mirror, but I've grown out of that.

I was mainly looking for a newspaper that wasn't decidedly left or right and was unbiased, like De Standaard. In Belgium it's unfashionable to be one way or the other, as a newspaper that is. You kind of gear your reporting to the intellectual abilities of your audience, but you don't voice opinions, unless you designate them that way. The recent pig 'scandal' with David Cameron, for example, would not have reached the news. It's not my problem what he once stuffed his d*ck into... What kitchen Milliband has or not. I don't see how that could be in the public interest. Or whether Corbyn is 'dangerous' or not... A newspaper like De Standaard would report on what he believes in, and would publish reactions to that from other figures if they got any. No more. I think it would be great if newspapers stopped voicing opinions disguised as fact. It only confuses people and makes them indecisive, so they lose interest. Though that might be Murdoch's game...

[prendrelemick]

Sounds like newspaper heaven, we badly need a De Standaard in this country. Off the top of my head, (I'm terrible at remembering figures) 70% of the printed media in Britain is owned by just 5 billionaires. They don't make money, so why do they own them if not to print opinion?

Meanwhile, (shudder) I..I.. think I'm turning into a Guardian reader. (I read 7 articles from it this weekend)

[YesNo]

Citizen Kane exists on a number of levels but even as plain entertainment it's a great story about how ' the child is the father of the man'.
I agee that the cinema is an illusion but then so is all art, and life would be greatly diminished without it.
I knew someone who also didn't read the news, which he described as all doom and gloom, and said he was better off without it.
He may well have been right but it's an addiction that's difficult to shake off.
I would doubt that classified information regarding the USA's mooon project would ever be released if it were shown to be a colossal confidence trick. The blow to the national ego would be far too devastating.
British documents relating to the notorious Profumo affair were released according to the 'Thirty Year Rule' but two files were retained on grounds of national security.

I watched Citizen Kane this evening and I admit it was a well-told story and I was entertained throughout. Kane was a wealthy owner of a newspaper and he was making up the news to increase circulation. Since the story was about newspapers and yellow journalism, the plot of the movie may be relevant to this thread. Are our current sources of information any better that what Kane was producing?

Besides the news Kane also marketed his second wife as an opera singer and the publicity seemed to be working until she got sick of doing it. I would think she should have had more ambition than that. Here was her opportunity. Instead of taking the opportunity Kane gave her, she blamed him justifying her attacks on Kane with arguments that sounded to me like psycho-babble. What did this guy have to do to make her happy? Sing her part as well?

It seemed that everyone was using the same argument against Kane: he only loved himself; he wanted everyone to love him. Really? I'll admit he did too much for others. He should have let that newspaper he took over die.

I checked for more information about the movie on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen_Kane


While a critical success, Citizen Kane failed to recoup its costs at the box office. The film faded from view after its release but was subsequently returned to the public's attention when it was praised by such French critics as André Bazin and given an American revival in 1956.

Apparently the movie, like Kane's second wife, needed marketing as well. It needed French critics to advertise it as an unappreciated art object. I'm not opposed to marketing and I think the movie was very well done, but is this movie popping up as number one everywhere a continuation of this advertising? Is this really the best that Americans have done since 1941? That's a long time to go to fail to break a record. Perhaps there's an underlying attack intended against American cinema with this movie appearing at the top so often. That argument might go like this: "Sure those Americans got it right with Citizen Kane, but nothing they did afterwards meets our critical standards."

One of the things I didn't understand was Kane's interest in his childhood sleigh.

[prendrelemick]

Every scene is a work of art in that film, the lighting, the camera angles, the cuts, the script, the symbolism etc. But those things are for the purists really. When I watch a film I want to have a good time, to become absorbed in the stories and the characters, not in the technicalities of brilliant film making, I know they have to be there, but to be really outstanding by definition they should pass unnoticed by the Great Unwashed (me).

[YesNo]

I noticed that Citizen Kane seemed very polished, but I think it was primarily a political attack on the newspaper publisher Hearst. It reminded me of Martin Scorsese's "The Wolf of Wall Street" when I saw the dancing girls at the office party.

One of the scenes in Citizen Kane was a claim that his newspaper could create a war with appropriate misinformation and then I thought of the last war in Iraq where people across party lines in the countries planning to invade believed that Iraq actually had weapons of mass destruction in spite of evidence that there were no such weapons from on the ground UN inspections.

Where one gets one's information is critical, but even those who don't read the newspapers, such as myself, are influenced by those around them who do. I remember hearing snippets of misinformation at the time, but then I also heard about those UN inspectors.

Reading the French press would have likely given one a different set of misinformation.

[Emil Miller]

I noticed that Citizen Kane seemed very polished, but I think it was primarily a political attack on the newspaper publisher Hearst. It reminded me of Martin Scorsese's "The Wolf of Wall Street" when I saw the dancing girls at the office party.

One of the scenes in Citizen Kane was a claim that his newspaper could create a war with appropriate misinformation and then I thought of the last war in Iraq where people across party lines in the countries planning to invade believed that Iraq actually had weapons of mass destruction in spite of evidence that there were no such weapons from on the ground UN inspections.

Where one gets one's information is critical, but even those who don't read the newspapers, such as myself, are influenced by those around them who do. I remember hearing snippets of misinformation at the time, but then I also heard about those UN inspectors.

Reading the French press would have likely given one a different set of misinformation.

Martin Scorsese admitted that he stole the idea of the dancing girls from Citizen Kane.
The UK parliament voted in favour of war with Iraq on the basis of a highly dubious intelligence report. However, Sadam Hussein wouldn't allow a second UN inspection, and that played into the hands of the pro-war factions.
The French didn't support the USA stance on Iraq but their attack on Libya in unison with the UK would later undermine any support for their non-compliance with the USA's attack on Iraq.
Although very powerful press barons might have played a decisive role in the decisions of governments, ultimately, it's the politicos who send in the troops.

[YesNo]

Martin Scorsese admitted that he stole the idea of the dancing girls from Citizen Kane.
The UK parliament voted in favour of war with Iraq on the basis of a highly dubious intelligence report. However, Sadam Hussein wouldn't allow a second UN inspection, and that played into the hands of the pro-war factions.
The French didn't support the USA stance on Iraq but their attack on Libya in unison with the UK would later undermine any support for their non-compliance with the USA's attack on Iraq.
Although very powerful press barons might have played a decisive role in the decisions of governments, ultimately, it's the politicos who send in the troops.

So Scorsese ripped off Orson Welles! I'll admit for a fraction of a second, I thought it was the other way around, but then I realized which movie was older.

I remember prior to the start of that war watching cars going by carrying small US flags flying from the windows. I remember people telling me the Iraqis were hiding the WMD in their back pockets leaving just before the UN inspectors arrived. I remember people telling not to eat what we call "French fries" (which I think you refer to as "chips") as a protest against the French because they did not support the coalition. But I agree it ultimately was the politicians rather than the press barons that caused the trouble.

L'Express is in the local library so I've started reading it off and on. France is far enough away from me that the news doesn't seem real. I did find out that Carla Bruni was a former first lady of France and I have started listening to her music.

[prendrelemick]

L'Express is in the local library so I've started reading it off and on. France is far enough away from me that the news doesn't seem real. I did find out that Carla Bruni was a former first lady of France and I have started listening to her music.


This is sort of post that I just find astounding - the world we now live in now. Where you can pick up a French newspaper in Chicargo, or (as I did recently) download a letter from the Pope to King Edwin of Northumbria written 1200 years ago, with no more effort than scratching my nose. When I was a lad, Halifax (8 miles away)was as far as I knew. Now I can chat to my brother in New Zealand about nothing, whenever I like. And information! Its all there to be had at a whim. The trouble is the internet disseminates ignorance as well as knowledge.

[Emil Miller]

L'Express is in the local library so I've started reading it off and on. France is far enough away from me that the news doesn't seem real. I did find out that Carla Bruni was a former first lady of France and I have started listening to her music.

L'Express is pretty good and I had it on subscription for a couple of years. Carla Bruni is said to be a singer of sorts but I have no wish to hear her. Sarkozy had a penchant for pop singers and footballers among his circle of friends, hardly the kind of people that Jacques Chirac would have cultivated but although a certain intellectual acuity goes a long way in French politics, Sarkozy seems to have done alright without it.

[YesNo]

I have been listening to Bruni's "Little French Songs". It was in the library. Her voice isn't as pleasing (to me) as Celine Dion's or those two in the Brigitte group, but "J'arrive a toi" is pretty good and she wrote it herself. What French singers do you listen to? Or is it only news?

Intellectual acuity isn't something I expect from politicians. I assume they appoint others with those skills.

[YesNo]

This is sort of post that I just find astounding - the world we now live in now. Where you can pick up a French newspaper in Chicargo, or (as I did recently) download a letter from the Pope to King Edwin of Northumbria written 1200 years ago, with no more effort than scratching my nose. When I was a lad, Halifax (8 miles away)was as far as I knew. Now I can chat to my brother in New Zealand about nothing, whenever I like. And information! Its all there to be had at a whim. The trouble is the internet disseminates ignorance as well as knowledge.

The internet is worse than any newspaper as far as spreading ignorance goes, but it does force one to be critical. I grew up on a farm in Indiana. I don't recall reading anything except for school assignments. The TV and radio were the windows on the world. Even if I got 8 miles away, there was nothing much there but more farmland.

[Methinks]

That's right, most popular news sources (maybe since the invention of newspaper) are a joke. I ignore the news, except for obvious headlines that alert me to tsunamis and other obviously non-fabricated items of interest. Otherwise it's just sensationalist hogwash.

[Emil Miller]

I have been listening to Bruni's "Little French Songs". It was in the library. Her voice isn't as pleasing (to me) as Celine Dion's or those two in the Brigitte group, but "J'arrive a toi" is pretty good and she wrote it herself. What French singers do you listen to? Or is it only news?

Intellectual acuity isn't something I expect from politicians. I assume they appoint others with those skills.

I had never heard of Carla Bruni until she married M. Sarkozy but the French singers I prefer belong to an older generation and this is arguably the best chanson of them all: it's certainly one of the most famous and was writen by the singer Charles Trenet, whose recording knocks spots off of all the others.

https://youtu.be/fd_nopTFuZA

Intellectual acuity isn't something I would expect from US politicians and neither from those in the UK, but several members of the French National Assembly have been notable academics.

[YesNo]

Yes, Charles Trenet's "La mer" is wonderful.

[fleamailman]

(the goblin thought it best to revive this thread and return to topic too, by saying "...if it's in the news then if probably isn't news, but instead it's those olds together with the distractions and half truths that placate the masses into not questioning the given line there...", in fact, the goblin preferred youtube where the debates upon youtube had dared say and show that which the news couldn't relate, saying "...if you need a qualification to be a journalist, moreover if you need a broadcasting license to relate the news too, then isn't that ample reason why not to follow the news but to pre guess it by youtube...", and yes, youtube was not the truth neither, only that freer to relate that which the authorities were hiding...")

[YesNo]

Welcome, fleamailman! I'm one of the gullible masses. That's my official excuse for not reading the news: I'm too impressionable. The truth is it bores me. Like sports.

[prendrelemick]

... and I've reached the shouting at the telly age.

[fleamailman]

Welcome, fleamailman! I'm one of the gullible masses. That's my official excuse for not reading the news: I'm too impressionable. The truth is it bores me. Like sports.

("...ah now, the truth will catch us unaware if one is not aware of it first..." replied the goblin who could have lived quite comfortably with the news coverage as it were had there been no internet to refute it utterly, sighing "...alas I'm my soapbox would collapse under the weight of my own conjectures if I were to relate them here, but on youtube I like the keiser report and gerald celente amongst many others now...")

[Emil Miller]

The media are able to shape public opinion to their own ends because the general public are too busy getting on with their own lives or
they are simply not interested in pursuing the truth about a given news item.
A good example occurred in the French business paper Le Figaro two days ago. The front page headline was 'The New Germany stirs up
Europe': this was in reference to the 25th anniversary of German reunification and its emergence as the most powerful economy in the
EU, even to the point of leaning on the other members.
Page 2 was given over to a resumé of Germany's economic dominance despite certain reservations among its neighbours.
On page 22 there was another article about how Portugal is turning the corner because of the programme of austerity enacted by the
government.
To the untrained eye, these are simply news stories but Le Figaro is the businessman's paper and, as elsewhere in Europe, the
manufacturers are pro EU.
So despite the problems of Greek debt, the VW scandal, the illegal mass migration from Africa etc and the consequent disillusion among
the French populace, the main reason for these articles is to convince people that Germany is strong enough to keep the European project
afloat.

[Clopin]

How come Germany, regardless of its current political stripe, is constantly Hell-bent on destroying Europe? I mean seriously.

[Emil Miller]

How come Germany, regardless of its current political stripe is constantly Hell-bent on destroying Europe? I mean seriously.

Frau Merkel's behaviour in relation to Germany and the EU is highly suspicious. Europe has been enslaved by the Euro to the extent that being in the Euro currency zone, means that its members will do anything that Germany demands in order not to lose the Euro that has infinitely more purchasing power than their former currencies. It's worth remembering that Merkel comes from the former GDR which was a member of Comecon, the last failed attempt at a Pan-European economic union.
Her throwing open Germany's borders to potentially millions of 'refugees' will destroy Germany; not to mention the devastating effect on the rest of the EU .
Stating that the decline in Germany's population requires an influx of people from elsewhere doesn't hold up. After WWII Germany's manpower was decimated but they encouraged Turkish Gastarbeiter to come to the country on a limited stay and that plugged the gap, but the Turks were generally not allowed German citizenship.
A similar arrangement could be put in place now but it seems that she and her Brussel's cohorts are determined to destroy the nation states of Europe.

[Clopin]

A similar arrangement could be put in place now but it seems that she and her Brussel's cohorts are determined to destroy the nation states of Europe.

Yes, that's my reading of the situation as well.

[YesNo]

("...ah now, the truth will catch us unaware if one is not aware of it first..." replied the goblin who could have lived quite comfortably with the news coverage as it were had there been no internet to refute it utterly, sighing "...alas I'm my soapbox would collapse under the weight of my own conjectures if I were to relate them here, but on youtube I like the keiser report and gerald celente amongst many others now...")

I checked out the first half of this Keiser report: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2U0ia7Y1Yo4 After hearing about "Piggate", I wasn't sure what to think. Is this really news?

I looked up Gerald Celente. He seems to be a bearish financial forecaster. However, I do think the economy is in the toilet. We just need someone to flush it (or maybe not).

Interesting source of news. I did not even think to look at YouTube for news.

[prendrelemick]

Destroying the Nation States of Europe is no biggy. It's happened before and will happen again. The Romans, the Persians, the Aztecs, the Ottomans all distroyed from within and without. But Life goes on, history never ends, you can destroy the political construct - but people will still be grubbing about, as they always are after the fall of states and empires .

Anyway I don't think that's the trend at the moment, Europe as a single entity is in more danger of breaking up than its Nation States are of being swallowed . The wheel of History has turned, the sepratists, local and national, are in ascendancy (Scottish, Basque, Eastern Ukraine.)
The Idea of a single Europe was to make war between its States redundant. People were enthusiastic after what they'd been through in the two World Wars, especally in France and Germany. Now people have forgotten, or believe it can't happen here and are splitting off into their tribes.

Merkel, Hollande and other leaders are essentially powerless against demographic shifts. A sucessful leader is one who follows - and knows it.

[Emil Miller]

The nation state isn't something to be cast aside simply be reference to history. If that were so, people wouldn't fight and die to protect it. For most people it represent's a way of life they have worked for and adapted to and have no intention of changing it for something they consider less acceptable. Examples of this can be seen in the number of countries that, since the fall of the USSR have reverted to their former nationhood and are still attempting to do so elsewhere. eg. Ireland, Scotland, Catalonia etc. It is in this context that Angela Merkel's actions seem devoid of logic.
It is not true that national governments are powerless against demographic shifts. If that were the case, the illegal influx of economic migrants that we are currently witnessing would have happened years ago.

[prendrelemick]

We are at cross purposes only in timescale, I'm thinking in millenia. Historically speaking, a nation state never gets to choose the lengh of its term. Look at the current boundries and states within Europe, then compare them 100, 200 years ago. Britain as we know it is 300 years old, and most British are the ancestors of economic immigrants - Celts, Saxons, Vikings, Normans, Hugunots, West Indians. Mass immigration was happening years ago.

[Emil Miller]

The migratory patterns of various peoples across Europe are well documented. In the case of the Celts and Saxons, they occupied land in the British isles that was relatively uninhabited whereas the Romans, Vikings and Normans had to fight their way in because the original immigrants had achieved an established way of life. In all these cases the numbers involved were relatively small.
European borders during the last 200 years have been changed by the deliberate acts of men such as Napoleon, Bismark, Stalin, Hitler and Woodrow Wilson but they have all reverted to their previous land mass.
The West Indians were allowed in by an Act of Parliament passed in 1948, there was no way they could have come here otherwise. The words 'mass immigration' are relative to the number of indigenous, ie. settled inhabitants, already living here at the time. Considered to be possibly one of the largest waves of immigrants to Britain, the Huguenots numbered some 50,000 when the overall population was less than four million.

[Clopin]

Mass immigration was happening years ago.

So that means it's going to be a positive thing? Or that it's inevitable? I don't think it's either.

[YesNo]

I was reading Harry Dent's "Demographic Cliff" recently and he seems to favor immigration or anything that will increase the number of younger people in a population, if I remember correctly. The demographic cliff is when a population gets too old lacking younger people for innovation, work and consumption, perhaps especially consumption.

[prendrelemick]

So that means it's going to be a positive thing? Or that it's inevitable? I don't think it's either.
I mean these times are neither special nor unique. As for how it will turn out, I've no idea. There are always unexpected consequences whatever you do.


I was reading Harry Dent's "Demographic Cliff" recently and he seems to favor immigration or anything that will increase the number of younger people in a population, if I remember correctly. The demographic cliff is when a population gets too old lacking younger people for innovation, work and consumption, perhaps especially consumption.
Germany wanted 800,000 refugees for that reason, but even they are being overwhelmed. UK grudgingly will take 50,000 by 2020 - which is pathetic. We could be missing an opportunity here.

[Emil Miller]

I was reading Harry Dent's "Demographic Cliff" recently and he seems to favor immigration or anything that will increase the number of younger people in a population, if I remember correctly.
The demographic cliff is when a population gets too old lacking younger people for innovation, work and consumption, perhaps especially consumption.

I have just watched a five-minute video of Harry Dent explaining his favouring of immigration to solve the demographic deficit. What he fails to mention is the fact that the largest number of immigrants into Europe are from Muslim countries. The repercussions from this are obvious to all but the disingenuous and it will end in the total eclipse of Western civilsation that is admittedly, already in the throes of self-inflicted decomposition. Muslims, whether Shiite or Sunni are directed by the Koran to spread their religion wherever they may be. The vacuum left by the abandonment of Christianity by large sections of the European populace in favour of socialism/communism has been noted and will remain a target for muslims in pursuence of their religion's expansion.

[Clopin]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/11911291/Germany-expects-up-to-1.5-million-migrants-in-2015.html

And of course 80% of them are young men. Good stuff.

[prendrelemick]

Yes, that is good stuff, and so is this:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/07/migrant-truck-deaths-untold-story-mans-desperate-voyage-europe

These two articles illustrate the point a already made about the press. The Telegraph seeks to keep refugees as faceless dehumanised statistics, a "Swarm" if you like. The Guardian seeks to individualise them. The Telegraph carefully chooses which statistics to publish in accordance with its editorial agenda, The Guardian chooses and relates the individual's story according to its agenda. They are both catering to their readership and reflecting their owners' political attitude.

If both are true, you pays your money and takes your pick.

[YesNo]

I have just watched a five-minute video of Harry Dent explaining his favouring of immigration to solve the demographic deficit. What he fails to mention is the fact that the largest number of immigrants into Europe are from Muslim countries. The repercussions from this are obvious to all but the disingenuous and it will end in the total eclipse of Western civilsation that is admittedly, already in the throes of self-inflicted decomposition. Muslims, whether Shiite or Sunni are directed by the Koran to spread their religion wherever they may be. The vacuum left by the abandonment of Christianity by large sections of the European populace in favour of socialism/communism has been noted and will remain a target for muslims in pursuence of their religion's expansion.

The culture would change with immigration. That's a risk, but maybe something good will come out of it.

I don't think Muslims have any better change of proselytizing than Christians or atheists in liberal democracies. All three of those groups lack an underlying tolerance that clashes with civil liberties. However, the religions of India have an advantage. They offer spirituality and tolerate diversity. People know about chakras, yoga, kundalini, meditation and ayurveda. The vacuum is already being filled.

However, I wonder if immigration can work anymore. Perhaps it is too late. It may just increase the financial burden on the government to provide services faster than this new population can add to the economy.

[Emil Miller]

The culture would change with immigration. That's a risk, but maybe something good will come out of it.

I don't think Muslims have any better change of proselytizing than Christians or atheists in liberal democracies. All three of those groups lack an underlying tolerance that clashes with civil liberties. However, the religions of India have an advantage. They offer spirituality and tolerate diversity. People know about chakras, yoga, kundalini, meditation and ayurveda. The vacuum is already being filled.

However, I wonder if immigration can work anymore. Perhaps it is too late. It may just increase the financial burden on the government to provide services faster than this new population can add to the economy.

And yet, despite this intolerance, we have the unedifying spectacle of the German Chancellor inviting mass immigration of Muslims into Germany. She's probably unaware that there are large numbers of people from the Indian sub-continent who have already emigrated to the UK, many of them muslims from Pakistan.
It's not a question of whether it inceases the financial burden and the need to provide services, it's a fact. There is a drastic housing shortage and school places in some areas are at a premium and yet we are constantly told that immigration is good for the country. This is not the USA which is 40 times larger than the UK. Some areas of London have become virtually impossible to navigate on foot due to the vast number of people there. I found Shanghai to be easier to move around in, so as far as I'm concerned inviting more immigrants is insane.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Hello all.

Yes 95% of the UK press is Tory bias/Murdoch Mafia stuff, so sure I would rather shoot myself that buy one of those! Only the Daily Mirror and the Guardian escape that lot, but the Mirror is also trash. So that leaves me having a look at the Guardian online for bits and pieces here and there, but still even that is a little sneering at times, so I tend to follow the people and things I am interested in on Twitter a little. I also try and watch things like BBC Parliament live channel, so I can watch the politicians first-hand and draw my own conclusions. For example if 3 million people are going to be worse off, but then the Mafia news is about someone who hasn't fastened his top button or sung a song, than I think ha, hold on a minute, hmmm...

[YesNo]

And yet, despite this intolerance, we have the unedifying spectacle of the German Chancellor inviting mass immigration of Muslims into Germany. She's probably unaware that there are large numbers of people from the Indian sub-continent who have already emigrated to the UK, many of them muslims from Pakistan.
It's not a question of whether it inceases the financial burden and the need to provide services, it's a fact. There is a drastic housing shortage and school places in some areas are at a premium and yet we are constantly told that immigration is good for the country. This is not the USA which is 40 times larger than the UK. Some areas of London have become virtually impossible to navigate on foot due to the vast number of people there. I found Shanghai to be easier to move around in, so as far as I'm concerned inviting more immigrants is insane.

I only vaguely know what her problems or motivations are. I assume she wants those immigrants to get warm, young, "bullish" bodies to bolster the economy, to put a wall along the demographic cliff so the EU doesn't roll over it. But who knows? She might just like Muslims. I agree that they will add to government expense.

Chicago can get crowded during work hours. Rush hours are crowded on foot. I avoid driving downtown, but if one gets out of the city, there does seem to be plenty of room. I was in Shanghai over a decade ago. It seemed about as crowded as downtown Chicago. London must be pretty bad.

I don't remember much about what Dent said and I am afraid I might misquote him, but I'm also too lazy to go to the library and get a proper reference. Considering that I think he thinks the markets will crash between now and 2020, I suspect he would believe that in spite of the overall population of both the US and Europe both of us have already fallen over the demographic cliff. In the short term immigration is too late. Someone has already flushed the toilet.

[Emil Miller]

Hello all.

Yes 95% of the UK press is Tory bias/Murdoch Mafia stuff, so sure I would rather shoot myself that buy one of those! Only the Daily Mirror and the Guardian escape that lot, but the Mirror is also trash. So that leaves me having a look at the Guardian online for bits and pieces here and there, but still even that is a little sneering at times, so I tend to follow the people and things I am interested in on Twitter a little. I also try and watch things like BBC Parliament live channel, so I can watch the politicians first-hand and draw my own conclusions. For example if 3 million people are going to be worse off, but then the Mafia news is about someone who hasn't fastened his top button or sung a song, than I think ha, hold on a minute, hmmm...

Hi Neely! As one of those who has read Pro Bono Publico, you will know why I gave up on Parliament long ago

[Emil Miller]

I only vaguely know what her problems or motivations are. I assume she wants those immigrants to get warm, young, "bullish" bodies to bolster the economy, to put a wall along the demographic cliff so the EU doesn't roll over it. But who knows? She might just like Muslims. I agree that they will add to government expense.

Chicago can get crowded during work hours. Rush hours are crowded on foot. I avoid driving downtown, but if one gets out of the city, there does seem to be plenty of room. I was in Shanghai over a decade ago. It seemed about as crowded as downtown Chicago. London must be pretty bad.

I don't remember much about what Dent said and I am afraid I might misquote him, but I'm also too lazy to go to the library and get a proper reference. Considering that I think he thinks the markets will crash between now and 2020, I suspect he would believe that in spite of the overall population of both the US and Europe both of us have already fallen over the demographic cliff. In the short term immigration is too late. Someone has already flushed the toilet.

It may be that Merkel is attempting to atone for past wrongs by allowing Germany to be inundated with illegal immigrants but, as with similar British legislation, this has been done without the slightest reference to the general public: so much for liberal democracy i.e. lots of liberalism but little democracy.
The last time I was in Shanghai was also about ten years ago and whatever has happened to its population since, I would be very surprised if it has matched the enormous increase in London's imported inhabitants during the interim. In fact, I am in the process of complicated negotiations to move out before the proverbial hits the fan.
There is a good deal of underlying talk about another market crash just around the corner, the IMF has just warned about the unsustainability of increasing world debt and yet the printing of money goes on. It's not pessimism or optimism that ultimately moves markets but reality. The markets won't crash through lack of manpower but through lack of common sense.

[OrphanPip]

The economic impact of immigration isn't so cut and dry. With low birth rates immigration is a necessity if Europe doesn't want to face a serious economic downturn in the future as their economies shrink simply from depopulation and lowered productivity from an ageing workforce. While immigrants may rely heavily on benefits, most of that money goes back into the economy through spending on food and basic services.

Anyhow, I mostly get my traditional news through the CBC or various news sources online. The local news here in Malaysia is just a mouthpiece for the government so largely irrelevant to pay attention to.

[Clopin]

While immigrants may rely heavily on benefits, most of that money goes back into the economy through spending on food and basic services.

Where I live (Banff Alberta) the following situation was the norm for (almost entirely Phillipino) 'guest workers' before a ton of them got #sentback.

1. Work up to three crappy jobs.
2. Get together en masse to rent accommodations, stuff as many people into one house as possible, to the extent that bed shares (literally person one works day shifts, sleeps at night, wakes up in the morning when person two who works night shifts comes into the bed and sleeps) were very common.
3. Send 90% of earnings back to home country.

Also since the guest worker program allowed employers to pay guest worker below the provincial minimum wage basically every position was priority filled by guest workers. Great economic impact right? Good if you're a business owner and can get the cheap labour I guess.

[OrphanPip]

Where I live (Banff Alberta) the following situation was the norm for (almost entirely Phillipino) 'guest workers' before a ton of them got #sentback.

1. Work up to three crappy jobs.
2. Get together en masse to rent accommodations, stuff as many people into one house as possible, to the extent that bed shares (literally person one works day shifts, sleeps at night, wakes up in the morning when person two who works night shifts comes into the bed and sleeps) were very common.
3. Send 90% of earnings back to home country.

Also since the guest worker program allowed employers to pay guest worker below the provincial minimum wage basically every position was priority filled by guest workers. Great economic impact right? Good if you're a business owner and can get the cheap labour I guess.

Guest workers are not immigrants. They never have status as immigrants in Canada, nor do they have any opportunity to become Canadian citizens.

There's a big difference between immigration and the exploitation of people from developing countries that our government has allowed to increase while cracking down on things like family reunification and refugees.

[Emil Miller]

Also since the guest worker program allowed employers to pay guest worker below the provincial minimum wage basically every position was priority filled by guest workers. Great economic impact right? Good if you're a business owner and can get the cheap labour I guess.

This is very much the case in the UK, the business community is split between those who see cheap labour as a wonderful windfall and those who see that EU membership restricts their free access to markets outside of the EU, i.e. money or potentially more money.
You can be certain that the public good is secondary or absent altogether from their considerations.

[YesNo]

Although I don't read it that often since I hear it is as biased as any other newspaper, there is always The Onion as a source of information: http://www.theonion.com/section/science-technology/

[prendrelemick]

^ That health warning one is brilliant.

[YesNo]

I'm also with Kyle Schultz of Fort Wayne, Indiana, when it comes to those NASA press conferences. http://www.theonion.com/article/nation-demands-nasa-stop-holding-press-conferences-51412

I want some evidence of a real, larger than microscopic-life, alien.

[Emil Miller]

Here's an example of how news is reported or possibly not. Yesterday's UK Daily Telegraph states : Bavaria is threatening to take unilateral action to turn back asylum seekers at the border in a direct challenge to Angela Merkel's refugee policy. Horst Seehofer, the Bavarian prime minister, said in an interview the state would take "self-defence measures to limit immigration."
This is particularly interesting because Bavaria's Christian Social Union party is a major plank of Mrs Merkel's coalition. However, this news is unlikely to have been printed in The Guardian which is all in favour of immigration and wouldn't like to print anything that rock's Mrs Merkel's boat.

[North Star]

The Guardian, Friday: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/09/bavaria-threatens-legal-merkels-germany-open-door-refugee-policy

[Emil Miller]

Ha ha, I saw this coming, which is why said 'possibly not' and 'unlikely'. I haven't read the item but I will to see what slant they put on it.

Edit: I have just read the article and they seem to be behaving themselves for once.

[tonywalt]

I would imagine that Saudi Arabia, UAE, Bahrain, Dubai, and Kuwait don't need these immigrants to 'bolster' their economies. And they NEVER bother with that rationale(which is exclusive to the WEST and the progressive West LOVES).

Hell, try getting into Japan. And it still is, and lets face it, always will be a very rich vibrant country. Japan would not even consider this kind of immigration on it's wildest drunk session.

[Emil Miller]

I would imagine that Saudi Arabia, UAE, Bahrain, Dubai, and Kuwait don't need these immigrants to 'bolster' their economies. And they NEVER bother with that rationale(which is exclusive to the WEST and the progressive West LOVES).

Hell, try getting into Japan. And it still is, and lets face it, always will be a very rich vibrant country. Japan would not even consider this kind of immigration on it's wildest drunk session.

It's interesting that Japan's population, like Germany's, is also in decline. I don't know if the loss of manpower in WWII has led to a belated deficit in new births or whether it's down to the use of the contraception pill. The Japanese do have a fierce determination to defend their culture which has led to their using foreign labour imported from Korea but not allowing the immigrants Japanese status. I don't know what the Japanese for 'Up Yours' is but I'm pretty certain that is the response to anyone suggesting that they adopt a more emollient attitude to immigration.

[Clopin]

I would imagine that Saudi Arabia, UAE, Bahrain, Dubai, and Kuwait don't need these immigrants to 'bolster' their economies. And they NEVER bother with that rationale(which is exclusive to the WEST and the progressive West LOVES).

Hell, try getting into Japan. And it still is, and lets face it, always will be a very rich vibrant country. Japan would not even consider this kind of immigration on it's wildest drunk session.

The people in Japan actually like their culture as opposed to Westerners who have been taught through fierce propaganda campaigns to hate it.

For example, I came upon this image thirty seconds after posting my above comment!

http://s16.postimg.org/y60xpvoc5/1444669874664.jpg

"Immigration is nothing new"
"We are all the result of immigration"
"There is no such thing as Swedish culture"

[North Star]

Well, all three are true. The Swedish people all came there from somewhere else, and all culture there is a mixture of all these peoples' cultures, and the influence of French, German, Russian, Finnish, British, American, etc cultures. That doesn't mean - nor should one think that the presentation tries to claim this - that the Swedish culture or people is in any way worth less than any other culture, or that some other culture/people should replace it. Quoting out of context to superficially support one's argument doesn't really work.

[Clopin]

Mhmm

http://izquotes.com/quotes-pictures/quote-i-think-that-s-what-makes-many-swedes-jealous-of-immigrant-groups-you-have-a-culture-an-identity-mona-sahlin-263999.jpg

[prendrelemick]

Abba and Volvo

[Emil Miller]

You tube is occasionally worth watching for news items. The heading for this one is 'What the media don't show.'

https://youtu.be/3lTSFs1TajU

[papayahed]

Back in college I did a statistics project on news sources and where people got their news. I don't remember the outcome. I did take the survey to a Jimmy Buffett concert and noticed as the day went on my writing became less and less legible.

[Clopin]

You tube is occasionally worth watching for news items. The heading for this one is 'What the media don't show.'

https://youtu.be/3lTSFs1TajU

Holy that's a lot of umbrellas for what appears to be no rain whatsoever.

[Clopin]

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/6527/migrants-rape-germany

Thanks Merkel. I don't know what the Gatestone Institute is, but if even half of that is true then lol, enjoy your Rotherham Germany ;)

[YesNo]

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/6527/migrants-rape-germany

Thanks Merkel. I don't know what the Gatestone Institute is, but if even half of that is true then lol, enjoy your Rotherham Germany ;)

The problem with such an article is that there is no way to check whether it is accurate or not. Even if the specific facts are accurate, there is no easy way to see if the perspective on those facts is correct.

The easiest thing to check is to try to find out something about the Gatestone Institute. I found this suggesting it may be anti-Muslim: http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/gatestone_institute

How much time do I want to spend researching it further? Not much. From my personal experience, people who parade the victimization against women and children often have a motivation for doing so that has nothing to do with women or children but is more focused on generating communal hatred against some group they don't happen to like.

[Clopin]

If you google any sort of combination of the words 'German', 'migrants' and 'rape' you get a bunch of articles suggesting much the same. As I implied though, I also don't know how much of it can be accepted as being fully accurate. Of course 'Islamophobia' is a complete joke. You don't need to be a bigot to take issue with religious fundamentalism or sharia law.

[Emil Miller]

Holy that's a lot of umbrellas for what appears to be no rain whatsoever.

Actually it did start raining quite heavily by the end of the video which,interestingly, is three years old. It doesn't take much imagination to get some idea of what her reception would be now.
A couple of days ago, one of the UK daily's had a picture of Merkel and Cameron walking in the grounds of Chequers, the prime ministerial country retreat, and my first thought was : What are those two ******** cooking up now?

[prendrelemick]

The last few posts illustrate the question I'm asking . Where is the truth ? You can find a Utube clip to reinforce any opinion you like; anti- muslim, pro- muslim anti- immigration, pro- immigration, anti or pro anything. You can find statistics to back up anything you like, just find the news that suits you. As Yesno says, how much time have we to spend researching further? - not much. It's what organisations depend on when they post this stuff.

This is why we need a reliable unbiased press - to do the research for us and to do it properly.


Meanwhile a story caught my eye this morning - Last night, in an attempt to enter the country a group of refugees/immigrants snuck aboard a lorry containing a live polar bear.

The Guardian would say - The refugees were unhurt.
The Daily Mail - All immigrants are evil bear hating idiots.
The Sun - The bear was unhurt.
Private Eye - Britain today! Polar bears welcome, people can sod off.

[Emil Miller]

It is most unlikely that there will ever be an unbiased press. People have opinions; some are based on what they have been told and others on what they see going on around them. Apart from personal observation, there is also the time-honoured occupation of 'reading between the lines' . Starting from the perspective that the media are not to be trusted, an ulterior motive should always be kept in mind.

[prendrelemick]

True, all true. But was it always so?

[Emil Miller]

True, all true. But was it always so?

To a lesser extent it was, but that's because, apart from newspapers, there are so many more news outlets now via television and the internet. Many of the newspapers from the pre and post-war period have disappeared but the subsequent influx of non-printed news means that the distortions of yesteryear have become legion. Much of what is printed and disseminated via TV, radio and the internet is trivial beyond belief and that's something that also wasn't so prevalent previously.

[OrphanPip]

I would imagine that Saudi Arabia, UAE, Bahrain, Dubai, and Kuwait don't need these immigrants to 'bolster' their economies. And they NEVER bother with that rationale(which is exclusive to the WEST and the progressive West LOVES).

Hell, try getting into Japan. And it still is, and lets face it, always will be a very rich vibrant country. Japan would not even consider this kind of immigration on it's wildest drunk session.

It's simply untrue, the UAE countries actually have populations of foreign workers that outnumber the locals. Some cities in the UAE have a 9 to 1 foreign worker to local ratio. This includes highly paid expats from Europe and America and near slave labour from India or Pakistan. Kuwait as well has massive foreign worker populations. Saudi is another matter, but it should also be noted that these countries don't suffer from the same lack of natural growth most western countries face.

Japan is facing serious demographic challenges which they don't have an effective answer to in the coming years.

Even in Brunei and Malaysia every single business you walk into is relying on Bangladeshi and Indonesian labour. Local malaysians don't do menial jobs anymore, every upper middle class home has one or more maids who come from either Indonesia or Thailand. Singapore relies on massive amounts of foreign labour as well.

Edit: Also are we ignoring the fact that these countries in the Middle East have taken in the largest number of refugees, last I checked I think Turkey is housing nearly a million Syrians at the moment.

[prendrelemick]

Oh look! The National Geographic Society (Now The National Geographic Partners) is laying off its fact checkers.("involuntary separations") I wonder why.