Why isn't chinese literature more popular?

[gustave dore]

A decent amount of chinese literature is available in english , especially modern chinese literature. I don't know about the quality of translations though. Is it because,for at least modern Chinese literature,most of it is published by small university presses and have a limited print run? Classic chinese works have been published by major presses in recent years, have they been slowly gaining a good reputation?

[Methinks]

Because the culture has been historically insular? Also, in the western world American media tends to dominate, from movies to television and literature. Yes, the UK does seem to export a good amount too, but it is an English speaking country. Chinese literature is not more popular, just like Romanian and Brazilian literature is not more popular in the western world, because it is not originally in English.

[奇異果]

Because much is lost in translation, especially classic poetry...

[gustave dore]

I was referring to popularity among serious literature, who do read foreign fiction.

[Margerma]

Good question. Which books would you recommend? I would love to learn more about Chinese literature...

[gustave dore]

I haven't read much honestly, but I would recommend lu xun and lao she. Lu xun is the greatest modern chinese writer and wrote mostly short stories, which are completely available in English. For lao she, i would recommend rickshaw boy, which had a large influence on the modern chinese novel.

[stlukesguild]

I suspect that Chinese literature is more "popular" with Anglo-American readers than English, French, Italian, and German literature is with Chinese readers.

[gustave dore]

Why is that?

[JBI]

Because much is lost in translation, especially classic poetrBy...

Nonsense.

Because of the obnoxious nature of Chinese people reading their literature as "My literature" instead of displaying it as "our" literature.

There is a cultural obsession with the "our belongings" and "our heritage" amongst much of the Chinese population, and among the vast population of China as a whole. Though Chinese students - and trust me I have taught over 2000 of them - may say their literature is the best in the world, they cannot tell you why. The great classics of Chinese literature are probably better read outside of China.

For instance, the single most important book in Chinese literature, judging by the scale and volume of the scholarship and discussion among classical authors and scholars, is the Yi Jing, a book seldom discussed in contemporary China. Whereas a minor collection of Aphorisms, the Analects of Confucius which traditionally were a minor work have become a defining cultural obsession - a marketing tool the same way Shakespeare, or Dante are marketing tools for the respective adopted cultures.

The bulk of classically read poems - that is, what every student from age 3 until age 20 will encounter - have already been translated in pristine editions. That being said however, despite the insistence Chinese scholars have with dictating how wide-ranging and interesting Chinese poets were, coming from all walks of life, etc., the clear feature of all these works is their monotony. They are all written by similar people with similar experiences. We generally do not relate well to our own medieval literature, which explains quite simply why readers in the western world would not relate well to someone else's medieval poetry, much less later imitations of it - particularly since the autobiographical nature of the work is in the foreground, and we simply don't care about the lives of others so distant from us.

Another problem is simply that the works are not interesting, even to Chinese readers. For all the talk of how great Chinese literature is, I do not see many Chinese people reading much of it. Of the classical Canon, the so called 13 classics, or even the 4 books and 5 classics, I would wager the average Chinese graduate of university has read maybe a few of the shorter selections. That is a foundation entry level set of texts - the wealth of other texts in China go consistently unread.

Very few cultures have managed to preserve such traditions. By making them particularly worshiped, and unread, China has managed a double feat of both encouraging pride in an idealized classical heritage, as well as discouraging the reading of such a heritage, which would ultimately lead to the clear conclusion that this stuff is medieval both in outlook and in content. Continuous lies like the classical language being inaccessible to all but experts help to dissuade students from even attempting.


As for the American audience, well, there is no shortage of great world literature out there. The well read person may pick up certain Chinese texts - journey to the west, Confucius' analects, the Lao Zi, or the like - but there is absolutely no requirement culturally to do so. The reason Japanese works are better enjoyed is simply because they speak to a Western audience better, not because they are easier to translate (which they aren't).

Many works in Chinese by Japanese authors have been translated to relatively good acclaim, thus disproving your point.

[JBI]

I suspect that Chinese literature is more "popular" with Anglo-American readers than English, French, Italian, and German literature is with Chinese readers.

To be honest though, it is actually very similar. They have a lot of quality translations from the modernist period still readily available and consumed, with of course a particular emphasis on French and Russian authors. World literature is about the same by now in China for classical authors, though they do not read them in their original languages.

I would say, however, that the most successful international literature other than English in the world is Japanese right now - every East Asian, and most European and North American audiences have felt a strong influence, particularly with modernist works. The Chinese government is trying to restrict this influence with no success; as a product Japanese art is far better received than that of anywhere but the United States.

[Clopin]

Another problem is simply that the works are not interesting, even to Chinese readers. For all the talk of how great Chinese literature is, I do not see many Chinese people reading much of it. Of the classical Canon, the so called 13 classics, or even the 4 books and 5 classics, I would wager the average Chinese graduate of university has read maybe a few of the shorter selections. That is a foundation entry level set of texts - the wealth of other texts in China go consistently unread.


Wouldn't this largely apply to nearly every country and canon? How many university students are familiar with even someone like John Donne? And I suspect your average Brit has not read Chaucer or (much) Shakespeare, and if they do read English literature in English schools is the average student reading it very attentively? I think readers of literature are a pretty small minority globally.

[mortalterror]

We generally do not relate well to our own medieval literature, which explains quite simply why readers in the western world would not relate well to someone else's medieval poetry, much less later imitations of it - particularly since the autobiographical nature of the work is in the foreground, and we simply don't care about the lives of others so distant from us.
I don't know about that. I've been getting more and more into medieval literature lately. It is so different from what we write today that it has an exotic and mysterious allure like that of Chinese and Persian literature. Frankly, I get bored reading modern literature because I feel like I know it too well. It doesn't offer any surprises. But medieval literature, and medieval culture has a mysticism, an allegory, elaborate use of metaphor, world seen through a warrior culture prism aspect to it which is appealing. Beowulf, The Tain, the Nibelungenlied, Arthurian and Roland legends, etc are just fun sword and sorcery stories reminiscent of Conan the Barbarian. When I first started reading the Viking sagas I had that shock of the new experience I felt back in high school the first time I saw Kurosawa's Seven Samurai. I'd never seen those elements put together in quite that combination before. I didn't fully understand it but I liked it.

As for being turned off by the autobiographical nature of the poems, I am intensely interested in details of Ovid's exile or Tu Fu's travels through war torn China. The Confessions of St. Augustine like A Moveable Feast, or Casanova's Story of My Life has an enduring attraction for readers many years later. I also like personal stuff from Catullus where he writes about the death of his brother or jokes with his friends. One of the most amusing passages of Horace has him describing in a parody of the Iliad how he was spirited away in a cloud from the battle of Philippi. Archilochus' frank discussion of his sexual conquests and people he doesn't like is part of his charm. Everything about Dante's Divine Comedy is autobiographical. Besides, isn't like your whole job studying poets from a long time ago?

[JBI]

Wouldn't this largely apply to nearly every country and canon? How many university students are familiar with even someone like John Donne? And I suspect your average Brit has not read Chaucer or (much) Shakespeare, and if they do read English literature in English schools is the average student reading it very attentively? I think readers of litersture are a pretty small minority globally.

Still, we read 4 Shakespeare plays, 4 modern plays, 10 novels, and a whole lot of poems and essays in High School in the City of Toronto. China doesn't even come close. Granted their classical literature is linguistically more distant than Shakespeare is to our current language, but that doesn't excuse anything.

I made a list of required reading, just as a general feeling, and what it came down to were a set of entry level texts, and essays with notes and answers provided for the respective test questions. Hardly even close to the language I received in public school. This of course, would vary somewhat by state in the States, or else vary by system or school in England, but I can't see even a close comparison between even the worst systems, and the vast majority of rural education in a semi-developed country.

[JBI]

I don't know about that. I've been getting more and more into medieval literature lately. It is so different from what we write today that it has an exotic and mysterious allure like that of Chinese and Persian literature. Frankly, I get bored reading modern literature because I feel like I know it too well. It doesn't offer any surprises. But medieval literature, and medieval culture has a mysticism, an allegory, elaborate use of metaphor, world seen through a warrior culture prism aspect to it which is appealing. Beowulf, The Tain, the Nibelungenlied, Arthurian and Roland legends, etc are just fun sword and sorcery stories reminiscent of Conan the Barbarian. When I first started reading the Viking sagas I had that shock of the new experience I felt back in high school the first time I saw Kurosawa's Seven Samurai. I'd never seen those elements put together in quite that combination before. I didn't fully understand it but I liked it.

As for being turned off by the autobiographical nature of the poems, I am intensely interested in details of Ovid's exile or Tu Fu's travels through war torn China. The Confessions of St. Augustine like A Moveable Feast, or Casanova's Story of My Life has an enduring attraction for readers many years later. I also like personal stuff from Catullus where he writes about the death of his brother or jokes with his friends. One of the most amusing passages of Horace has him describing in a parody of the Iliad how he was spirited away in a cloud from the battle of Philippi. Archilochus' frank discussion of his sexual conquests and people he doesn't like is part of his charm. Everything about Dante's Divine Comedy is autobiographical. Besides, isn't like your whole job studying poets from a long time ago?

Du Fu is an interesting character from war torn China. Try the ones who grew up in piece time. Well, 800 or so Du Fu poems are extant, if you take any poet from the Song Period onward, you are looking at several thousand poems a person. Ironically, however, the judgment in criteria is often based on how close they are an imitation to Du Fu.

This all being said, you are not the norm. I read Chinese literature for pleasure and professionally. We are both mere eccentrics. The majority of Europeans or North Americans know perhaps only a few kitsch pieces of Chinese literature, misunderstood for Western audiences. Chinese people themselves prefer novels and modern literature, which, ironically, are more an imitation (with varying success) of Western modernist and realist works in general. The whole arts boom in the 80s leading to Mo Yan's nobel prize is basically a knockoff of the Magical Realism movement in Latin America.

Medieval European literature is hardly a popular field, despite some great works and terrific scholarship to make it more accessible. You may enjoy it, but even the vast majority of readers on these forums, who, by reading are already going against the norm, do not particularly care for it. We are not talking even about seminal works like Beowulf, we are talking about obscure works.

Sure, Chinese people may read Du Fu or Li Bai, but how many will read obscure poets from the period? The same is with Elizabethan literature in English - how many people read the more obscure dramatists, let alone the authors working in Latin. There is generally this tendency to ignore the old or inaccessible. Why then would someone have a tendency to turn and read obscure works, or ancient inaccessible works in another language?

[stlukesguild]

I would say, however, that the most successful international literature other than English in the world is Japanese right now - every East Asian, and most European and North American audiences have felt a strong influence, particularly with modernist works. The Chinese government is trying to restrict this influence with no success; as a product Japanese art is far better received than that of anywhere but the United States.

There is an interesting correlation here with the visual arts. Western European art (French, Italian, Austro-German, Dutch, English, and Spanish) and American Art dominate the world art markets and discussions/studies of art... but Japanese art is by far the most influential and popular of Non-Western art. Part of this is likely due to fact that Japanese art shares much with the sensibilities of Modern Western art. The spatial elements and graphic nature of Japanese prints had a profound impact upon the Impressionists, Post-Impressionists, and Expressionists. The decorative aspects of Japanese screen painting... especially of the Momoyama period... impacted artists such as Gustav Klimt, Alphonse Mucha, and many artists and illustrators of the Art Nouveau and Art Deco period. The "Minimalism" and sensitivity to natural materials of Japanese architecture and design had a great impact upon Western Modernist architecture and design.

Chinese art strikes me... and many others... as overwrought... almost Baroque. As much as I love Persian and Islamic art, it is little-known in Western art circles in comparison to Japanese art. The same could be said of Indian art, African art, South American Art, etc... Western art circles will likely be far more familiar with Hokusai, Hiroshige, and Utamaro than any names of Chinese, Persian, or South American artists. The Japanese have been more successful in digesting Western influences and turning it into something really original. While there are a number of Chinese artists beginning to make a name, too often they seem overly indebted to Western/American Pop Art and installations. One rarely hears of American artists building upon more recent Chinese or Indian art, where this is not true of Japanese art.

[mortalterror]

[COLOR="#B22222"]
There is an interesting correlation here with the visual arts. Western European art (French, Italian, Austro-German, Dutch, English, and Spanish) and American Art dominate the world art markets and discussions/studies of art... but Japanese art is by far the most influential and popular of Non-Western art. Part of this is likely due to fact that Japanese art shares much with the sensibilities of Modern Western art. The spatial elements and graphic nature of Japanese prints had a profound impact upon the Impressionists, Post-Impressionists, and Expressionists. The decorative aspects of Japanese screen painting... especially of the Momoyama period... impacted artists such as Gustav Klimt, Alphonse Mucha, and many artists and illustrators of the Art Nouveau and Art Deco period. The "Minimalism" and sensitivity to natural materials of Japanese architecture and design had a great impact upon Western Modernist architecture and design.

Chinese art strikes me... and many others... as overwrought... almost Baroque. As much as I love Persian and Islamic art, it is little-known in Western art circles in comparison to Japanese art. The same could be said of Indian art, African art, South American Art, etc... Western art circles will likely be far more familiar with Hokusai, Hiroshige, and Utamaro than any names of Chinese, Persian, or South American artists. The Japanese have been more successful in digesting Western influences and turning it into something really original. While there are a number of Chinese artists beginning to make a name, too often they seem overly indebted to Western/American Pop Art and installations. One rarely hears of American artists building upon more recent Chinese or Indian art, where this is not true of Japanese art.

I'd say the reason for that is economic more than aesthetic, StLuke. Japan modernized and industrialized long before China. It's been a first world nation since at least 1905 when it beat the Russians, a great European power, in a war. They've had far better education and far more money for about a century than China has had. They've also been closer trading partners. While China wanted no part of Europe and America the Japanese were selling us wrist watches, telephones, computers, automobiles, you name it. They were buying our companies in the eighties and taking over the globe; so westerners thought it would be advantageous to learn about their culture, the same as we are doing with China now that they are on the rise. When the French were running everything in the sixteen and seventeen hundreds everyone learned French and tried to write like the French. When the British took over everyone learned English. 122 million Mexicans live right below us but nobody studies their culture and emulates them because they are poor.

[JBI]

I would say, however, that the most successful international literature other than English in the world is Japanese right now - every East Asian, and most European and North American audiences have felt a strong influence, particularly with modernist works. The Chinese government is trying to restrict this influence with no success; as a product Japanese art is far better received than that of anywhere but the United States.

There is an interesting correlation here with the visual arts. Western European art (French, Italian, Austro-German, Dutch, English, and Spanish) and American Art dominate the world art markets and discussions/studies of art... but Japanese art is by far the most influential and popular of Non-Western art. Part of this is likely due to fact that Japanese art shares much with the sensibilities of Modern Western art. The spatial elements and graphic nature of Japanese prints had a profound impact upon the Impressionists, Post-Impressionists, and Expressionists. The decorative aspects of Japanese screen painting... especially of the Momoyama period... impacted artists such as Gustav Klimt, Alphonse Mucha, and many artists and illustrators of the Art Nouveau and Art Deco period. The "Minimalism" and sensitivity to natural materials of Japanese architecture and design had a great impact upon Western Modernist architecture and design.

Chinese art strikes me... and many others... as overwrought... almost Baroque. As much as I love Persian and Islamic art, it is little-known in Western art circles in comparison to Japanese art. The same could be said of Indian art, African art, South American Art, etc... Western art circles will likely be far more familiar with Hokusai, Hiroshige, and Utamaro than any names of Chinese, Persian, or South American artists. The Japanese have been more successful in digesting Western influences and turning it into something really original. While there are a number of Chinese artists beginning to make a name, too often they seem overly indebted to Western/American Pop Art and installations. One rarely hears of American artists building upon more recent Chinese or Indian art, where this is not true of Japanese art.

I was trying to look more at Japanese contemporary art internationally. We see it everywhere, without even realising it. IF we look at martial arts novels, or Hong Kong cinema, we may slowly discover they too are Japanese. I wasn't even thinking about the west. China is by far the greatest importer of all things Japanese.

[JBI]

I'd say the reason for that is economic more than aesthetic, StLuke. Japan modernized and industrialized long before China. It's been a first world nation since at least 1905 when it beat the Russians, a great European power, in a war. They've had far better education and far more money for about a century than China has had. They've also been closer trading partners. While China wanted no part of Europe and America the Japanese were selling us wrist watches, telephones, computers, automobiles, you name it. They were buying our companies in the eighties and taking over the globe; so westerners thought it would be advantageous to learn about their culture, the same as we are doing with China now that they are on the rise. When the French were running everything in the sixteen and seventeen hundreds everyone learned French and tried to write like the French. When the British took over everyone learned English. 122 million Mexicans live right below us but nobody studies their culture and emulates them because they are poor.

Fascination with Japan is already nearing 200 years actually. Japanese things have always been popular and accepted/desired, even when the country was in shambles in the 40s. The truth is the greatest importer of Asian artwork in general is the United States.

However, new laws have made it near impossible for American markets to legally buy any antique Chinese works. Likewise, the failure of their system to create good modern works has basically turned the Chinese arts market abroad into a junk yard with expensive cliche trash. Japan has been consistently pushing the definitions of artwork and literature, whereas, quite simply, China has not.

I personally collect contemporary artworks of a particular kind - namely pottery. I will say that Japanese works are far better than Taiwanese ones, and Taiwanese ones are far better than most Mainland Chinese ones. The reasons are the creativity in place and the market infrastructure.

In general I would say China has failed to offer a unique product that we would buy as "Chinese art" or even "art" outside of knocking off traditional models. Japan has constantly been innovating in the arts. That's why we can find great names in contemporary times, but it seems Chinese art has not been able to come out of its traditional models with the same innovation. The same can be said for literature.

[JBI]

duplicate, please disregard.

[mortalterror]

Fascination with Japan is already nearing 200 years actually. Japanese things have always been popular and accepted/desired, even when the country was in shambles in the 40s. The truth is the greatest importer of Asian artwork in general is the United States.

However, new laws have made it near impossible for American markets to legally buy any antique Chinese works. Likewise, the failure of their system to create good modern works has basically turned the Chinese arts market abroad into a junk yard with expensive cliche trash. Japan has been consistently pushing the definitions of artwork and literature, whereas, quite simply, China has not.

I personally collect contemporary artworks of a particular kind - namely pottery. I will say that Japanese works are far better than Taiwanese ones, and Taiwanese ones are far better than most Mainland Chinese ones. The reasons are the creativity in place and the market infrastructure.

In general I would say China has failed to offer a unique product that we would buy as "Chinese art" or even "art" outside of knocking off traditional models. Japan has constantly been innovating in the arts. That's why we can find great names in contemporary times, but it seems Chinese art has not been able to come out of its traditional models with the same innovation. The same can be said for literature.
One media that I do make an attempt to stay current with is film and China has done well in that medium in recent decades. When I see one art form flourishing, it makes me wonder if others aren't doing likewise in that culture.

2011 Warriors of the Rainbow: Seediq Bale
2009 City of Life and Death
2008 Red Cliff
2006 Curse of the Golden Flower
2004 2046
2002 Infernal Affairs, Hero
2000 Devils on the Doorstep, Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon
1995 Shanghai Triad
1994 To Live
1993 Farewell My Concubine
1991 Raise the Red Lantern

and from my que of films I need to see
In the Mood For Love (2000)
Yi Yi (2000)
Not One Less (1999)
The Road Home(1999)
The King of Masks (1997)
Happy Together (1997)
Temptress Moon (1996)
The Legend of Drunken Master(1994)
Tai Chi Master(1993)
The Story of Qiu Ju(1991)
Days of Being Wild(1990)
Ju Dou(1990)
Bullet in the Head (1990)
Dragon's Forever(1988)
Red Sorghum(1987)

Now, I'm not sure but aren't Zhang Yimou's works usually adaptations of popular literature: Red Sorghum, To Live, Ju Dou, Raise the Red Lantern, Story of Qiu Ju, Not One Less, Shanghai Triad, The Road Home? This at least suggests that there are a few works of literature worth reading being produced in China in contemporary times.

As far as the modern literary scene goes, isn't Wolf Totem supposed to be good? I know I've seen you championing Fortress Besieged from the middle of the last century and I've very much enjoyed Lu Xun from around the twenties. I didn't get that far into them but I liked what I read of Rickshaw Boy and that autobiographical book you recommended once about the dude who came back from being re-educated and his own family had turned against him. It had a title like Mirror something Flowers maybe? Anyway, pretty sad stuff, but well written. They've got a billion people over there so someone is probably doing something worthwhile, even if we aren't hearing about it all the way over here.

In sculpture, I like their Rent Collection Courtyard produced in 1965, and the contemporary busts of Ah Xian. I like Zhang Daqian's paintings. And when it comes to the older stuff, I think people really like their landscapes. There is stuff out there, so the culture isn't completely bankrupt.

[gustave dore]

Your list lacks Jia Zhangke, who is considered the greatest living chinese director. You also should see the films fro the underground documentary movement china, especially the epic documentaries Tie Xi Qu: West of the Tracks and Karamay. Those two rival Shoah for greatest documentary, though karamay doesn't seem to have a dvd but can be found on youtube.

[mortalterror]

Your list lacks Jia Zhangke, who is considered the greatest living chinese director. You also should see the films fro the underground documentary movement china, especially the epic documentaries Tie Xi Qu: West of the Tracks and Karamay. Those two rival Shoah for greatest documentary, though karamay doesn't seem to have a dvd but can be found on youtube.
Jia Zhangke, the greatest living director, according to who? I saw his Touch of Sin. It didn't impress me. The films of Wong Kar Wai and Zhang Yimou have blown me away. As for the greatest documentary that's Hearts and Minds, although Bowling For Columbine, Fog of War, Harlan County USA, One Day in September, The Man With the Movie Camera, and Woodstock are pretty good too.

[Margerma]

I'd say the reason for that is economic more than aesthetic, StLuke. Japan modernized and industrialized long before China. It's been a first world nation since at least 1905 when it beat the Russians, a great European power, in a war. They've had far better education and far more money for about a century than China has had. They've also been closer trading partners. While China wanted no part of Europe and America the Japanese were selling us wrist watches, telephones, computers, automobiles, you name it. They were buying our companies in the eighties and taking over the globe; so westerners thought it would be advantageous to learn about their culture, the same as we are doing with China now that they are on the rise. When the French were running everything in the sixteen and seventeen hundreds everyone learned French and tried to write like the French. When the British took over everyone learned English. 122 million Mexicans live right below us but nobody studies their culture and emulates them because they are poor.

This is very interesting post. Spot on! Does it mean that a taste of art is dictated by economy?

[Margerma]

I personally collect contemporary artworks of a particular kind - namely pottery. I will say that Japanese works are far better than Taiwanese ones, and Taiwanese ones are far better than most Mainland Chinese ones. The reasons are the creativity in place and the market infrastructure.

In general I would say China has failed to offer a unique product that we would buy as "Chinese art" or even "art" outside of knocking off traditional models. Japan has constantly been innovating in the arts. That's why we can find great names in contemporary times, but it seems Chinese art has not been able to come out of its traditional models with the same innovation. The same can be said for literature. I had watched a BBC program couple of weeks ago - Chinese teachers had been invited to the British school to teach kids using their own system. Children were divided in 2 groups - some stayed in British system, others were taught by Chinese teachers. The idea - to compare the results. Well... Chinese had won in every subject (including... English), however the teachers where shocked to discover that their system depresses the personality. Discipline, technical knowledge, hard work - all in place. However creativity, imaginative tasks, expressing own opinion do not exist in the Chinese system (if to believe to this program). So, if this is a case, an area of art would suffer. Creativity and expressing a personal world are crucial for anything - from pottery to literature.

[gustave dore]

One media that I do make an attempt to stay current with is film and China has done well in that medium in recent decades. When I see one art form flourishing, it makes me wonder if others aren't doing likewise in that culture.

2011 Warriors of the Rainbow: Seediq Bale
2009 City of Life and Death
2008 Red Cliff
2006 Curse of the Golden Flower
2004 2046
2002 Infernal Affairs, Hero
2000 Devils on the Doorstep, Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon
1995 Shanghai Triad
1994 To Live
1993 Farewell My Concubine
1991 Raise the Red Lantern

and from my que of films I need to see
In the Mood For Love (2000)
Yi Yi (2000)
Not One Less (1999)
The Road Home(1999)
The King of Masks (1997)
Happy Together (1997)
Temptress Moon (1996)
The Legend of Drunken Master(1994)
Tai Chi Master(1993)
The Story of Qiu Ju(1991)
Days of Being Wild(1990)
Ju Dou(1990)
Bullet in the Head (1990)
Dragon's Forever(1988)
Red Sorghum(1987)

Now, I'm not sure but aren't Zhang Yimou's works usually adaptations of popular literature: Red Sorghum, To Live, Ju Dou, Raise the Red Lantern, Story of Qiu Ju, Not One Less, Shanghai Triad, The Road Home? This at least suggests that there are a few works of literature worth reading being produced in China in contemporary times.

As far as the modern literary scene goes, isn't Wolf Totem supposed to be good? I know I've seen you championing Fortress Besieged from the middle of the last century and I've very much enjoyed Lu Xun from around the twenties. I didn't get that far into them but I liked what I read of Rickshaw Boy and that autobiographical book you recommended once about the dude who came back from being re-educated and his own family had turned against him. It had a title like Mirror something Flowers maybe? Anyway, pretty sad stuff, but well written. They've got a billion people over there so someone is probably doing something worthwhile, even if we aren't hearing about it all the way over here.

In sculpture, I like their Rent Collection Courtyard produced in 1965, and the contemporary busts of Ah Xian. I like Zhang Daqian's paintings. And when it comes to the older stuff, I think people really like their landscapes. There is stuff out there, so the culture isn't completely bankrupt.


Jia Zhangke, the greatest living director, according to who? I saw his Touch of Sin. It didn't impress me. The films of Wong Kar Wai and Zhang Yimou have blown me away. As for the greatest documentary that's Hearts and Minds, although Bowling For Columbine, Fog of War, Harlan County USA, One Day in September, The Man With the Movie Camera, and Woodstock are pretty good too.

West of the tracks and karamay blow up most of those away.

[mortalterror]

West of the tracks and karamay blow up most of those away.

I highly doubt that. The content may tug at your heart strings, stories that involve dead children often do, but it's hard to outdo the documentaries I listed in terms of skill. The clips I saw don't warrant that kind of comparison. Besides, West of the Tracks just sounds like an overly long Roger and Me.

[stlukesguild]

I'd say the reason for that is economic more than aesthetic, StLuke.

Economics can impact the export of culture... but I doubt that economics were of the least concern to the various European and American artists from the late 19th and early 20th centuries who built upon Japanese art. The Japanese aesthetic was simply far more in line with Western Modern aesthetics.

Japan modernized and industrialized long before China. It's been a first world nation since at least 1905 when it beat the Russians, a great European power, in a war. They've had far better education and far more money for about a century than China has had. They've also been closer trading partners. While China wanted no part of Europe and America the Japanese were selling us wrist watches, telephones, computers, automobiles, you name it.

This may be true... but it has little to do with the embrace of Japanese art by Western artists and art lovers. When the Japanese pandered to Western aesthetics, the quality of the work greatly declined.

They were buying our companies in the eighties and taking over the globe; so westerners thought it would be advantageous to learn about their culture, the same as we are doing with China now that they are on the rise.

The influence of Japanese art far predates the 1970s and 80s... by 100 years or more. The influence and popularity of Japanese art rose again almost immediately following WWII while the German aesthetic (Expressionism) in art disappeared from the end of the war until the 1980s... when the German economy led to a renewed sense of German pride and German art reasserted the "Germanic" elements and stopped playing at producing "humble" variations of American and European abstraction. Certainly, art follows wealth and power... but this is not always true... nor is it always true in every artistic form. Russian "Classical" music almost dominated the first half of the 20th century and Russian literature of the period was also quite impressive... but after Kandinsky, Russian painting achieved very little.

When the French were running everything in the sixteen and seventeen hundreds everyone learned French and tried to write like the French. When the British took over everyone learned English. 122 million Mexicans live right below us but nobody studies their culture and emulates them because they are poor.

Again, this is not true of all artistic genre. While France and Spain and England were the great powers from the 1500s-1900s the Austro-Germans and Italians dominated music. With the exception of the Romantic period and Blake, Constable, and Turner the English achieved very little in painting. French music burned out with the Baroque and they didn't become a major player again until the mid-19th century. The Italian, Flemish (Belgian), and Dutch Baroque far and away surpasses that of the French or English painting of the same period... in spite of the continual wars and financial struggles in comparison to France and England.

Again, Art follows wealth and power... but this is not a simple formula. England was far wealthier and more powerful than France during the late-19th/early 20th centuries, but Paris, Vienna... and later Berlin produced far more lasting and influential painting and music during this period.

[JBI]

I had watched a BBC program couple of weeks ago - Chinese teachers had been invited to the British school to teach kids using their own system. Children were divided in 2 groups - some stayed in British system, others were taught by Chinese teachers. The idea - to compare the results. Well... Chinese had won in every subject (including... English), however the teachers where shocked to discover that their system depresses the personality. Discipline, technical knowledge, hard work - all in place. However creativity, imaginative tasks, expressing own opinion do not exist in the Chinese system (if to believe to this program). So, if this is a case, an area of art would suffer. Creativity and expressing a personal world are crucial for anything - from pottery to literature.

Firstly, the results were messed up because it took an ideal of the Chinese system - not the actual Chinese system which is underfunded, poorly staffed and semi-educated as found in the majority of somewhat remote areas in China where the bulk of the population lives. Secondly, statistics over such a short period don't point to anything.

I teach professionally and I can say the biggest difference is, is that Western students develop skills that are more useful, whereas Chinese students are merely digesting facts. In the real world, you use the most basic math skills pretty much, and rely on natural personality traits for the majority of work. They lack the motivation, creativity, leadership traits or basic social skills to function outside of a fact-grinding classroom.

That being said, most Chinese students are not taught like this, as, like in many developing countries, Chinese education is a mixed bag. The top university students however, seem to be quite useless in regard to practical skill, and normally aren't fit for any form of work after graduation.

I would say the kids who underwent the study will be damaged for a long time to come, and shouldn't have been subjected to such a regimen.

[JBI]

I'd say the reason for that is economic more than aesthetic, StLuke.

Economics can impact the export of culture... but I doubt that economics were of the least concern to the various European and American artists from the late 19th and early 20th centuries who built upon Japanese art. The Japanese aesthetic was simply far more in line with Western Modern aesthetics.

Japan modernized and industrialized long before China. It's been a first world nation since at least 1905 when it beat the Russians, a great European power, in a war. They've had far better education and far more money for about a century than China has had. They've also been closer trading partners. While China wanted no part of Europe and America the Japanese were selling us wrist watches, telephones, computers, automobiles, you name it.

This may be true... but it has little to do with the embrace of Japanese art by Western artists and art lovers. When the Japanese pandered to Western aesthetics, the quality of the work greatly declined.

They were buying our companies in the eighties and taking over the globe; so westerners thought it would be advantageous to learn about their culture, the same as we are doing with China now that they are on the rise.

The influence of Japanese art far predates the 1970s and 80s... by 100 years or more. The influence and popularity of Japanese art rose again almost immediately following WWII while the German aesthetic (Expressionism) in art disappeared from the end of the war until the 1980s... when the German economy led to a renewed sense of German pride and German art reasserted the "Germanic" elements and stopped playing at producing "humble" variations of American and European abstraction. Certainly, art follows wealth and power... but this is not always true... nor is it always true in every artistic form. Russian "Classical" music almost dominated the first half of the 20th century and Russian literature of the period was also quite impressive... but after Kandinsky, Russian painting achieved very little.

When the French were running everything in the sixteen and seventeen hundreds everyone learned French and tried to write like the French. When the British took over everyone learned English. 122 million Mexicans live right below us but nobody studies their culture and emulates them because they are poor.

Again, this is not true of all artistic genre. While France and Spain and England were the great powers from the 1500s-1900s the Austro-Germans and Italians dominated music. With the exception of the Romantic period and Blake, Constable, and Turner the English achieved very little in painting. French music burned out with the Baroque and they didn't become a major player again until the mid-19th century. The Italian, Flemish (Belgian), and Dutch Baroque far and away surpasses that of the French or English painting of the same period... in spite of the continual wars and financial struggles in comparison to France and England.

Again, Art follows wealth and power... but this is not a simple formula. England was far wealthier and more powerful than France during the late-19th/early 20th centuries, but Paris, Vienna... and later Berlin produced far more lasting and influential painting and music during this period.

To add to this, Canadian modernist art is a mix of Impressionism and Japanese artworks, and impressionism and much of European art toward the beginning of the 20th century was fairly "Asian" in the sense that it was highly influenced by East Asian ideas. Before that even you have gardens and pottery totally re-configuring how people understood art in the traditional sense - the Asiatic has always been popular since the 18th century, and even before that.

This is not to say Japan had not been artistically successful abroad before it was economically successful. The strange thing with the American experience is simply it imported things in a different way, mostly in modern times, and through Japan first, whereas Europe had been dealing in Chinese antiques for hundreds of years prior to that, and had more established older territories and colonies abroad to move them around. When you think of influence you can consider, for instance, the style of decoration, but you can also consider over the past 300 years, starting with the Dutch, how many people's lives, decorations and styles of living have been altered by something as simple as tea. You need a tea room, you need tea decorations, a tea table, and also a time of the day to consume it. You develop an entire culture around such things.

Now, the US is incredibly different in that its gaze has been focused on Japan primarily, due to geographic proximity. Though you would be shocked, for instance, to think of the large collections of all sorts of Japanese art floating around Europe, collections with particularly long histories, namely in England of course, but also a sizeable collection of Japanese prints in Venice of all places. Japan has been adored in Western eyes and collections almost as soon as it entered the map in Western imaginations.


I'd say in terms of literature, however, because of this strange Americanism that went through Japan first, many ideas of Chinese literature were more or less filtered through Japanese aesthetic traditions and arrived in a highly idealized, exotic forms; forms which disappeared in China over the centuries but fermented in Japan. Things like Buddhism and Eroticism were more or less purged in China over the centuries, or else totally reconsidered and reworked, whereas in Japan they flourished and developed in a more refined direction. So when we consider, for instance, erotic poetry from Japan, we see something which was pretty much pushed out of most Chinese literature 900 odd years ago, whereas if we look at Tang dynasty, or even early Song dynasty art-work, we see the models for such forms, and the culture in which they were formulated.


That all being said, England was hardly a power in 1600 when Shakespeare was writing his works, it wasn't even a power in 1700. If you look on maps and in history, the great power is the Spanish crown and the Holy Roman empire. As for German literature, it didn't really flourish, and as for Spanish influence in the world, well, not as much as other things at the time in England. the actual politics and power only slightly correspond. 18th century exploration of Roman and Greek ruins did a lot to change the face of European artwork at the time, but that does not mean it necessarily corresponded to Greek - or at this time Turkish - economic growth.


Simply put, Dutch merchants were ruling the seas for centuries; we like Dutch artwork and accepted and incorporated much into the English speaking culture - we even got tea drinking from the Netherlands first, strangely enough - and the monarchy of England is even a Dutch import. This is all fine, but I am hard pressed to find the connection between Dutch literature and any form of English literature in almost any place in the world. The tradition of letters evolved outside of Dutch economic dominance or even cultural importance.

The thing about modern culture is this; Korea may be able to promote Korean art and music and cinema for a time, but much of our habits are not following Korea, despite the sizable chunk of money they throw at us. Pop music in Korea is just a modified form of music that was developed in the United States in the 80s and 90s, and reworked by Japanese and Korean artists into a different language. That we don't listen to it regularly attests to the fact that it is unable to really drag us or sway us or change our views of things. Japanese art and technology as recently as our current age is actually doing that and much more, and we are looking to those models for guidance and inspiration, despite the fact that the Japanese economy has been in decline for over 30 years.


As for the influence of art in the late 19th century, well I think we don't give England enough credit. Sure in terms of direct genealogy the connection is less clear, but you have to also consider English colonies abroad, and the proliferation of foreign "Oriental" artwork and African artwork that this really entailed. Sure we can find a clear genealogy, but the impressionism we love so much would not have been the same without the intensive asiatic influence.

[PeachSodaLover]

and from my que of films I need to see
In the Mood For Love (2000)
Yi Yi (2000)
Not One Less (1999)
The Road Home(1999)
The King of Masks (1997)
Happy Together (1997)
Temptress Moon (1996)
The Legend of Drunken Master(1994)
Tai Chi Master(1993)
The Story of Qiu Ju(1991)
Days of Being Wild(1990)
Ju Dou(1990)
Bullet in the Head (1990)
Dragon's Forever(1988)
Red Sorghum(1987)
Thats an excellent compilation of Chinese films. I want to watch those Chinese films but I just need to make sure theyre in subtitle. It should be ok.

[prendrelemick]

I had watched a BBC program couple of weeks ago - Chinese teachers had been invited to the British school to teach kids using their own system. Children were divided in 2 groups - some stayed in British system, others were taught by Chinese teachers. The idea - to compare the results. Well... Chinese had won in every subject (including... English), however the teachers where shocked to discover that their system depresses the personality. Discipline, technical knowledge, hard work - all in place. However creativity, imaginative tasks, expressing own opinion do not exist in the Chinese system (if to believe to this program). So, if this is a case, an area of art would suffer. Creativity and expressing a personal world are crucial for anything - from pottery to literature.

This ties in with what I was told by a teacher who worked with Chinese children, they would regurgitate her own words back to her in written essays and in answers in class. She would beg ,plead, demand for something original, to disagree with her, for something that showed they had thought for themselves, but their concept of "school" and "learning" made it very difficult for them. They were showing respect for their teacher by not going beyond her lessons, which would involve her "losing face"

My son worked in China for several years and found a similar problem. He'd ask Chinese programmers if they could perform a task -
"yes" they'd say. (To say no would displease him.)
Later he'd ask if they'd done it - "yes" they'd say. (they hadn't, but to say no would mean losing face.)

This "yes" to everything was a great problem until he adapted to their way a bit.

Perhaps this culture of respect/ losing face, makes creativity beyond the traditional difficult and a bit frightening.

[lichtrausch]

This ties in with what I was told by a teacher who worked with Chinese children, they would regurgitate her own words back to her in written essays and in answers in class. She would beg ,plead, demand for something original, to disagree with her, for something that showed they had thought for themselves, but their concept of "school" and "learning" made it very difficult for them. They were showing respect for their teacher by not going beyond her lessons, which would involve her "losing face"

My son worked in China for several years and found a similar problem. He'd ask Chinese programmers if they could perform a task -
"yes" they'd say. (To say no would displease him.)
Later he'd ask if they'd done it - "yes" they'd say. (they hadn't, but to say no would mean losing face.)

This "yes" to everything was a great problem until he adapted to their way a bit.

Perhaps this culture of respect/ losing face, makes creativity beyond the traditional difficult and a bit frightening.
We should be very skeptical of all these claims of East Asians lacking creativity. People said for years that Japan couldn't make anything original, they could only copy others. Then Japanese tech and industrial companies started out-innovating Western ones; Japanese scientists contributed to a wave of scientific progress that is made clear by the ever growing tally of Nobel prizes for Japanese scientists; Japanese cartoons and animation totally eclipsed those of the Western world. All of these endeavors required immense creativity.

[OrphanPip]

I teach Chinese children in Malaysia and the school systems do instill habits that lead to low levels of creativity. I used to write out sample paragraphs or give examples for students until I got fed up with them simply copying everything I wrote, now I only provide them with the most basic point by point guidelines. In many ways it's a class problem, the children from richer families go to international schools where they have properly trained English teachers who can handle creative writing. The poorer children in the public schools get 40 minutes a week with a locally trained English teacher who may or may not actually speak English competently. Teenagers here are particularly self-conscious and afraid of making even the smallest mistakes. It doesn't help that their local school teachers cane them if they answer a question incorrectly.

[Emil Miller]

Disciplne versus creativity is an interesting conumdrum. Recently I had a call from a Chinese friend asking if I could read an essay that her seventeen-year-old-daughter had written as part of her application for university entrance. The girl goes to a highly respected school and is aiming for Oxford thanks to the discipline, excercised by her mother, during her formative years.
Her subject was PPE and I was astonished at her knowledge in these subjects but her ceativity had not allowed her to express herself within the minimum 4000 words required.
There was little I could do except to strip out various sections that, although germane to the subject matter, helped reduce the text to the necessary minimum.