"Blood Meridian" vs "Lonesome Dove"

[ajvenigalla]

Since it's the 30th anniversary of Cormac Mccarthy's great American novel Blood Meridian and Larry McMurty's Pulitzer Prize winning epic Lonesome Dove, I have decided to launch and dedicate a post to these two great Western novels.

I have read only Blood Meridian and not (yet) Lonesome Dove, so I don't have a comparison myself.
However, I would like to say that my favorite novel of all time is Blood Meridian. I like its haunting and maximalist prose style, I like its brave depiction of explicit and extreme violence, I like its almost transcendent, mythological feel.

Which ultimately is the better novel? Which is a more effective depiction of the West? Which is a better "ultimate Western"? Who is the better Western novelist? Is it Larry McMurty or Cormac McCarthy?

[Eiseabhal]

As far as the best Western writer is concerned, you have reduced it too far by knocking it down to two. There's more to McCarthy than just being a genre writer. McMurtry is entertaining. H L Davis was a writer of Westerns which feel more authentic than either of these two who are probably better writers than he was.

[Pompey Bum]

There's more to McCarthy than just being a genre writer. McMurtry is entertaining.

True. I was trying to think if there was much more to it than that. Blood Meridian is the better novel and McCarthy is the better writer. But parts of Lonesome Dove are really funny (which can't be said for Blood Meridian), and some are genuinely moving (others, more melodramatic). Lonesome Dove is a Western in the classic sense. Blood Meridian is set in Mexico and Texas, but its themes are more like Melville's in Moby Dick. Bottom line: read both.

Although he only wrote one Western, John Williams' Butchers Crossing is getting quite the literary reputation these days. Has anyone read E.L. Doctrow's Welcome to Hard Times, by the way? Would you recommend it?

[ajvenigalla]

^ thanks. I've read Blood Meridian.

I will read Lonesome Dove soon.

And I will also re-read Blood Meridian :)

[kev67]

I have not read Blood Meridian, but I have read Lonesome Dove, its sequel and two prequels. Of the Lonesome Dove Series, my favourites were in the order of

1) Dead Man's Walk, 2) Lonesome Dove, 3) Streets of Laredo, 4) Comanche Moon

Larry McMurtry was a cruel god to his creations. The only character he really protected was Captain Call, who was my favourite too.

[Pompey Bum]

I was more the Augustus McCrae type. Call was too legalistic.

[Bustrofedon]

Blood Meridian is one of my top books, too. That book hooked me on McCarthy and I like it better than anything of his I read after. I never considered reading Lonesome Dove but that may have been a mistake. Little Big Man might be my favorite novel that I consider a western even though it is a parody. I always thought that Blood Meridian sort of transcended the genre.

[Pompey Bum]

Little Big Man might be my favorite novel that I consider a western even though it is a parody.

Little Big Man is sometimes considered a revisionist Western (a loaded term, I know, but then shouldn't terms about Westerns be loaded? :)) I think Welcome to Hard Times is considered a revisionist Western as well, although I've never actually read it.

[bounty]

ive not read either, but I do have lonesome dove and would be happy to read it right after I finish the book im presently in.

ive been skeptical about Cormac McCarthy because of our recent experiences here on the forums with an insufferable character who held McCarthy as one of his favorite authors. however since then, ive seen a fair number of other people praise him too.

so at the moment, im ill-equipped to answer the op's exact question, but to me the question about westerns is, is this just a story that happens to take place in say, Colorado or California or does it capture the essence of the time and place?

ive read zane grey, Louis l'amour, max brand and a small handful of some others. I like zane grey the best of the bunch I think in part because he often writes in the cowboy/western vernacular. though although the authors I have read do this to an extent, im also particularly fond of his main characters rugged individualism, love of freedom and the land, their chivalrous spirit and the rough justice they visit on the bad guys. to me, those are essential characteristics of a good western.

[Pompey Bum]

ive been skeptical about Cormac McCarthy because of our recent experiences here on the forums with an insufferable character who held McCarthy as one of his favorite authors. however

Oh come on, I'm not that bad. :):):)

Another sort of Western that was sort of good was Woe to Live On by Daniel Woodrell. This was less a cowboy story than a historical novel set in "Bleeding Kansas." It was gruesome enough, and it's graphic depiction of cruelty bothered me a little. I guess I'm getting too old for the rough stuff. Woe to Live on was later turned into an Ang Lee movie called (I think) Ride With the Devil. I never saw it, so I can't comment.

[bounty]

laughs...

I think that's one of the attractions of the westerns I tend to read---they are for sure rough, but what "cruelty" exists is almost exclusively limited to the bad guys, and its not graphic in comparison to today's literature.

and its also one of the "wrongs" the good guy "rights."

I recently picked up "deadwood" by pete dexter, which is supposedly one of the all time great westerns.

which leads me to star trek: the next generation! there's an episode where worf's son alexander invites his father to join him in the holodeck as the sheriff and deputy in deadwood. worf is at first skeptical but then they are in a bar and a bunch of guys attack worf, while he is busy beating the tar out of them, he turns to alexander and shouts gleefully in his deep bass voice "I am beginning to see the appeal in this program!"

its sooo funny.

its interesting to note the variety of depictions out there---for instance, I cant imagine clint eastwood playing a character from a zane grey novel, but neither can I imagine zane grey writing a novel like any of the clint eastood westerns---yet they are both westerns.

has anyone seen gary cooper in high noon, and then sean connery in outlander?

[Pompey Bum]

Sure, I know the Gary Cooper film. I've never seen Outlander but my old college roommate was always talking about it (VCRs were still around the corner, which dates me pretty badly). I thought it was Science Fiction, though.

By the way, the "insufferable character" you referenced earlier took his name from a character in a great old Western movie called The Wild Bunch. He must have thought of himself as a rootin' tootin' badass from day one.

Oh and do you (or does anyone else) know anything about a writer named James Carlos Blake (In the Rogue Blood, Country of Bad Wolfe's, etc.)? I think his books are very violent, too, but I've heard that they have some literary merit. Anyone read him?

[ennison]

I had forgotten all about H L Davis. I think I have a novel of his in the house: Honey in the Horn. Read it in my mid teens. Very realistic.

[bounty]

yes, outlander is science fiction, but its pretty much the same story as high noon. even more than "my sweet lord" by George Harrison is like "he's so fine" by the chiffons!

what makes it work for both stories, is that the locales in both movies are "frontier" so to speak. it would be interesting to have a sci-fi fan who doesn't like westerns, but who has enjoyed outlander, watch high noon. or vice-versa. one wonders what matters more, the essential stories or the settings?

seems like I might have seen the wild bunch when I was a kid...

I have not read james carlos blake...

[WyattGwyon]

I don't think Blood Meridian is even McCarthy's best novel set in the west, let alone his best work. I prefer The Crossing among the "westerns." Suttree, I believe, is much better, and even his first novel, The Orchard Keeper, I find more interesting than Blood Meridian.

[Pompey Bum]

I haven't read The Orchard Keeper. It's set in Appalachia, though, isn't it? Personally I prefer McCarthy's "Easterns," such as Outer Dark, Child of God, and The Road (in which I take the father and son to be looking for the Cumberland Gap). For me, they have a creepier, more personal feel. His Westerns involve an elaborate mythos I'm not sure I really share. His Easterns seem to be about fable--myth made personal. One way or another, they affect/disturb me more.

[mortalterror]

When I read Blood Meridian 14 years ago, it left me unmoved. I may come back to it, since I've changed my mind about books before. When I put a couple of years between readings of Heart of Darkness I went from hating it to loving it. Some books you just need to read at the right time in your life. As for Lonesome Dove, I didn't read the book, but I loved the miniseries.

[mortalterror]

I recently picked up "deadwood" by pete dexter, which is supposedly one of the all time great westerns.
Is it anything like Deadwood the tv series? I loved that.


which leads me to star trek: the next generation! there's an episode where worf's son alexander invites his father to join him in the holodeck as the sheriff and deputy in deadwood. worf is at first skeptical but then they are in a bar and a bunch of guys attack worf, while he is busy beating the tar out of them, he turns to alexander and shouts gleefully in his deep bass voice "I am beginning to see the appeal in this program!"
Yeah, a lot of sci-fi stories could just as easily be westerns. Star Trek Deep Space Nine is modeled after a frontier town with stock characters like the sheriff Odo and the saloon keeper Quark. Then there's basically the swap between Japanese samurai films and spaghetti westerns, trading the guns for swords etc. It even comes back around in films like Star Wars. Tatooine is obviously a dusty western state like Texas, or possibly Mexico. Mos Eisley cantina is a hole in the wall where the scoundrels and smugglers go. Han Solo even looks the part of a cowboy.


its interesting to note the variety of depictions out there---for instance, I cant imagine clint eastwood playing a character from a zane grey novel, but neither can I imagine zane grey writing a novel like any of the clint eastood westerns---yet they are both westerns.
What's great is watching John Wayne play parts in the same genre separated by decades, so the genre has had time to change. In Stagecoach he's the good guy, and the Indians are bad guys. By the time of She Wore a Yellow Ribbon, the Indians are humanized and the American army/government are no longer totally morally in the right with how they treat the Indians. By the time of The Searchers, John Wayne's Indian fighter is viewed as savage, distrusted, and feared at points. So with the same types of actions he moved from a shining hero to an antihero and he even caps his career off with The Shootist about an old gun fighter in a dying west. Of course, Peckinpah did that last one better in The Wild Bunch.

Come to think of it Eastwood had some range too. He's supposed to be all smiles and friendly in Rawhide. Then he becomes the laconic man with no name in Sergio Leone's films. Until finally, he tops it off with his hitman in Unforgiven.


has anyone seen gary cooper in high noon, and then sean connery in outlander?
Great films, although Outland is just more of a fun popcorn film with a lot more action.

[easy75]

McMurtry and McCarthy, love them both but wow such different writers. If I was going to plan on sitting down and reading a great western I would have to lean towards lonesome Dove, certainly over blood Meridian which is not my favorite McCarthy story. For me when I think of a Western, I think more archetypal. All The Pretty Horses and The Crossing are the best "Western" themed stories I have read of McCarthy (and a couple of my favorite books period), and they both really transcend the genre. Suttree was good too, but not really a Western. Also the writer Charles Portis is pretty underrated in general in my opinion, and True Grit is a great read.
@ Pompey Bum, Welcome to Hard Times is good. Not my favorite Doctorow, but I can't really remember reading any of his stuff that wasn't good. He's one of my favorites

[Pompey Bum]

@ Pompey Bum, Welcome to Hard Times is good. Not my favorite Doctorow, but I can't really remember reading any of his stuff that wasn't good. He's one of my favorites

Thanks easy. I'll add it to my next Amazon scoop up.


Also the writer Charles Portis is pretty underrated in general in my opinion, and True Grit is a great read.

I got the feeling that McMurtry was incorporating the character of the girl in True Grit into the Lonesome Dove subplot about the inept wanderings of the deputy sheriff from Arkansas (though he was certainly no Rooster Cogburn). But then I only ever saw the movie version of True Grit.

[ladderandbucket]

I love both books, but McCarthy's is far superior. Although Lonesome Dove is a better (maybe the best?) example of the genre.

Read a few books by James Carlos Blake which I enjoyed, but for all the wrong reasons. He's a decent-enough writer of pulpy historical fiction - the books are lurid, violent and derivative - but he so, so wants to be Cormac McCarthy that it's kind of endearing. In the Rogue Blood is essentially a composite of the Border Trilogy and Blood Meridian, with a few other scenes which I noticed were taken directly from movies, and some sections I suspect to have been cribbed from a history book. Friends of Pancho Villa and Wildwood Boys were less ambitious and better for it, but I can only ever think of him as a copycat.

[Ecurb]

I recognize McCarthy's talent, but "Blood Meridian" was too bleak and unrelenting to be my cup of tea. As an Oregonian, I recommend "Little Century" by Anna Keesey. It's told from the perspective of the heroine (like "True Grit" in that respect) and might be the best Oregon Western. Here's the New York Times Review (which mentions "Blood Meridian):

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/01/books/review/little-century-a-novel-by-anna-keesey.html

(edited so that the link works)

[Pompey Bum]

Read a few books by James Carlos Blake which I enjoyed, but for all the wrong reasons. He's a decent-enough writer of pulpy historical fiction - the books are lurid, violent and derivative - but he so, so wants to be Cormac McCarthy that it's kind of endearing. In the Rogue Blood is essentially a composite of the Border Trilogy and Blood Meridian, with a few other scenes which I noticed were taken directly from movies, and some sections I suspect to have been cribbed from a history book. Friends of Pancho Villa and Wildwood Boys were less ambitious and better for it, but I can only ever think of him as a copycat.

Thank you very much for that straightforward review, L&B. (Thanks to Ecurb, too, for the recommendation). How about The Sisters Brothers? Anyone read it? I heard great things at first (funny and offbeat, but then it seemed to drop off everyone's radar. (Maybe it didn't sell).

[bounty]

Is it anything like Deadwood the tv series? I loved that.

im not familiar with the tv series but I just started the book today and its about wild bill Hickok, and then also calamity jane. the early pages have wild bill on a wagon train en route to dead wood.



Yeah, a lot of sci-fi stories could just as easily be westerns. Star Trek Deep Space Nine is modeled after a frontier town with stock characters like the sheriff Odo and the saloon keeper Quark. Then there's basically the swap between Japanese samurai films and spaghetti westerns, trading the guns for swords etc. It even comes back around in films like Star Wars. Tatooine is obviously a dusty western state like Texas, or possibly Mexico. Mos Eisley cantina is a hole in the wall where the scoundrels and smugglers go. Han Solo even looks the part of a cowboy.

you might already know this, or will otherwise enjoying knowing, gene Roddenberry used to be involved in westerns and called star trek "a wagon train to the stars." (which is also a title of a star trek book in the "new earth" series)


What's great is watching John Wayne play parts in the same genre separated by decades, so the genre has had time to change. In Stagecoach he's the good guy, and the Indians are bad guys. By the time of She Wore a Yellow Ribbon, the Indians are humanized and the American army/government are no longer totally morally in the right with how they treat the Indians. By the time of The Searchers, John Wayne's Indian fighter is viewed as savage, distrusted, and feared at points. So with the same types of actions he moved from a shining hero to an antihero and he even caps his career off with The Shootist about an old gun fighter in a dying west. Of course, Peckinpah did that last one better in The Wild Bunch.

Come to think of it Eastwood had some range too. He's supposed to be all smiles and friendly in Rawhide. Then he becomes the laconic man with no name in Sergio Leone's films. Until finally, he tops it off with his hitman in Unforgiven.

Great films, although Outland is just more of a fun popcorn film with a lot more action.

I think my favorite john waynes are rio bravo, the war wagon, el dorado, and true grit.

I picked up my lonesome dove today and noticed it was 900 pages for goodness sake!

[bounty]

oh and, if we are recommending westerns---please, someone's gotta read a zane grey!

I had a neat experience early on in my zane grey reading. I met and become friends with someone who had been a friend with someone who was a friend of grey's. the person in the middle so to speak, became an inspiration for one of his books, which we then both read.

[mortalterror]

I think my favorite john waynes are rio bravo, the war wagon, el dorado, and true grit.
Red River and Fort Apache don't get enough love.

Also, I rewatched Outland today. It's only like High Noon in the last forty minutes. The first hour is the marshal uncovering the drug problem.


oh and, if we are recommending westerns---please, someone's gotta read a zane grey!

I grew up on Louie L'Amour westerns and will always have a soft spot for them. There just aren't enough Bowie knives in modern westerns for my taste. Plus, Tom Selleck and Sam Elliot were great as members of the Sackett family when they brought it to the screen. Also, what I've read of the Latin American epic Martin Fierro is pretty awesome too.

[easy75]

I grew up on Louie L'Amour westerns and will always have a soft spot for them. There just aren't enough Bowie knives in modern westerns for my taste. Plus, Tom Selleck and Sam Elliot were great as members of the Sackett family when they brought it to the screen. Also, what I've read of the Latin American epic Martin Fierro is pretty awesome too.

^This.

I will always love louis L'Amour. I also think for being a straight up genre writer, he was one of the best at it. His non-western historical fiction novels are excellent as well.

[Ecurb]

An Algonquin Western anecdote: George Oppenheimer was collecting material for a quiz book called "Ask Me Another". As a promotional gimmick, he posed the questions to celebrities. He asked Beatrice Kaufman (wife of George Kaufman), "Who wrote 'The Virginian'?"

"Owen Wister," answered Beatrice.

"Then who wrote 'The Virginians'?" asked Oppenheimer.

"Owens Wisters," she answered.

[Darcy88]

Haven't read Lonesome Dove. I've gone through Blood Meridian a few times and while I was often in a state of awe over his stylistic and creative brilliance, each go through was like walking over a bed of hot coals or dragging a tremendous load up a steep unending mountain-side beneath a hellish skin-blistering sun. It was demoralizing, harrowing, - an ordeal. I wouldn't say that detracts at all from its quality though. But it is the only book that persistently, with each chapter, depressed me, but from which I still emerged thinking "this is a great book."