Alright, alright, alright

[Atri]

Hello everyone. I'm typically not big on forums, but seeing as none of my friends are going to develop a taste for books in the near future, I've decided to give this a go.

I consume all sorts of media, from games to movies and shows, and from anime to manga. However, I've always had a soft spot for lengthy fantasy series. I used to love them a lot growing up, and I still do, but I feel it's kind of a one-sided relationship, as most of the titles I see crowned as "the very best!!!" nowadays end up being very shallow and anticlimactic, catered towards an audience that has little in common with me and expectations seemingly lower than dinosaur bones. Still, I love me Bakker and Peake (I know: they're not very similar, are they?); when it comes to general fiction I'm a big fan of McCarthy and Dostoevsky, and if I absolutely had to choose a favorite book I'd likely go with Blood Meridian or Crime and Punishment.

I tend dislike books that are focused entirely on action and plotting, but I also hate novels with cardboard cutouts for characters that exist only to virulently expound the author's thoughts and beliefs - at that point, I'd much rather it be nonfiction. Postmodernist fiction does this a lot, and while I'm a big fan of the stylistic flourishes and the magnificent prose displayed by some of its adherents, the characters and stories make me feel like I'm reading an Ikea catalog. I'm willing to forgive a lot if I see that the author has a lot of love for people and doesn't create characters just to **** all over them; there's nothing I find more infuriating than getting attached to a character only to find out he exists solely to be made an example of due to the author feeling vindictive as hell.

In essence, I like lengthy and well-balanced novels with a wide variety of themes and characters, and I appreciate it when the author takes a certain distance from the work and the outcome of the story - I prefer a more realistic, almost Socratic approach if you will; one that leads to discussions on forums, rather than long instructional passages.

Anyway, I hope I'll learn a lot by being here and that I don't annoy anyone too much.

[YesNo]

Welcome! I don't read many novels, but I can see that the cardboard cutout characters would be annoying.

One postmodern novel, or at least I heard it was an example of a postmodern novel, was John Gardner's "October Light". I thought the book was great from the first chapter with the shotgun to the last chapter where he doesn't kill the bear. The secondary novel embedded inside this one that one of characters was reading that had the aliens in it was pretty good, too.

[Dreamwoven]

Welcome to LitNet and I doubt you will annoy anyone. I started to rad Shadowmarch by Tad Williams. The first 200 pages are rather long and tedious, but I will persevere.

[Atri]

Welcome to LitNet and I doubt you will annoy anyone. I started to rad Shadowmarch by Tad Williams. The first 200 pages are rather long and tedious, but I will persevere.

This is always the problem with fantasy series: they're long, and everyone promises you the ride is worth it - but it usually isn't. I remember forcing myself through The Name of the Wind thinking it would be as incredible as all the reviews proclaimed, only to discover it was a sloppy work with a sue self-insert as a main character, that went as far as to end on a cliffhanger (which was really where the story was about to start, as the hundreds of pages leading up to that were empty meandering that added nothing to the main story and no character development). Man, I vowed never to read another Rothfuss book after that, and I doubt I ever will. If a work is over 500p, then Christ, I expect some form of resolution, even if it doesn't cover the entire trilogy or whatever.

[Calidore]

Welcome to LitNet and I doubt you will annoy anyone. I started to rad Shadowmarch by Tad Williams. The first 200 pages are rather long and tedious, but I will persevere.

I remember enjoying Williams' Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn trilogy 20 years ago when it came out, though when I read his earlier Tailchaser's Song (which I also liked), I saw an awful lot of reused ideas. Then I read Otherland when that series completed and was very disappointed, and a more recent rereading of Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn also left me hollow.

Atri, can you give some examples of fantasy series you did like?

[Dreamwoven]

It was J. R. R. Tolkien Lord of the Rings (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._R._R._Tolkien's_influences) that started it all. His trilogy certainly was a huge success, becoming the best book of the twentieth century.

[Atri]

I remember enjoying Williams' Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn trilogy 20 years ago when it came out, though when I read his earlier Tailchaser's Song (which I also liked), I saw an awful lot of reused ideas. Then I read Otherland when that series completed and was very disappointed, and a more recent rereading of Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn also left me hollow.

Atri, can you give some examples of fantasy series you did like?

The Prince of Nothing trilogy is the crown jewel as far as I'm concerned, and nothing comes close. Everything about it is great and aligns with my tastes 100%.

The only other thing that resonated with me a lot was the Horus Heresy series, but that's so long, and some of the novels are horrid, although a select few are insanely good.

Then there's Gormenghast, Discworld, The Lord of the Rings, The First Law trilogy, the Malazan series (first three books, at least), A Song of Ice and Fire (also first three), and a few others I'm probably forgetting.

In general, if it's not YA and gimmicky, and if it doesn't deal with teens/romance, there's a high chance I'll enjoy it.

[Dreamwoven]

I must look out for the Prince of Nothing trilogy.

[Calidore]

Prince of Nothing looks interesting, but reviews have given me a couple of concerns: The trilogy ends on a cliffhanger, and the second trilogy isn't finished yet (plus the second book came out four years ago); and apparently a large part of the books is exposition and metaphysical discussion in place of storytelling. The reviews were overall positive, but that style of writing doesn't work for me.

I'm surprised you went for Horus Heresy in the first place, considering the start of your intro's third paragraph. The Warhammer authors can be iffy, as you'd expect from licensed game tie-in novels, but Dan Abnett in particular writes modern pulp of the highest order--interesting characters getting into and out of hopeless situations at a breakneck pace, with plenty of story-relevant detail about the universe they're in. I haven't read Horus Heresy itself, as it's an ongoing 30+-novel shared story, but Abnett's Eisenhorn and Ravenor trilogies are aces. One of these days I'll get around to his Gaunt's Ghosts series as well.

I started Gormenghast a few years ago and then got distracted, but I keep meaning to get back to it. It's a story with a very different look and feel (it's the only book I've ever read that I visualized as claymation), but it definitely seemed worth pursuing. One of these days...

I've heard of Malazan, but wasn't aware it had finally been completed. I'll definitely have to check that out.

Robert Holdstock might be right up your alley. His Ryhope Wood series is one of my absolute favorite fantasies. Check out the first book, Mythago Wood, and see what you think.

If you'd be interested in trying a great, dark YA fantasy, look at Garth Nix's Abhorsen trilogy. It definitely skews toward the A end of YA, and it's not cookie-cutter by any means. You might like his excellent sci-fi novel Shade's Children also.

Finally, here's a thread worth checking out: http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?13392-recommended-fantasy-books

[Atri]

Prince of Nothing looks interesting, but reviews have given me a couple of concerns: The trilogy ends on a cliffhanger, and the second trilogy isn't finished yet (plus the second book came out four years ago); and apparently a large part of the books is exposition and metaphysical discussion in place of storytelling. The reviews were overall positive, but that style of writing doesn't work for me.

I'm surprised you went for Horus Heresy in the first place, considering the start of your intro's third paragraph. The Warhammer authors can be iffy, as you'd expect from licensed game tie-in novels, but Dan Abnett in particular writes modern pulp of the highest order--interesting characters getting into and out of hopeless situations at a breakneck pace, with plenty of story-relevant detail about the universe they're in. I haven't read Horus Heresy itself, as it's an ongoing 30+-novel shared story, but Abnett's Eisenhorn and Ravenor trilogies are aces. One of these days I'll get around to his Gaunt's Ghosts series as well.

I started Gormenghast a few years ago and then got distracted, but I keep meaning to get back to it. It's a story with a very different look and feel (it's the only book I've ever read that I visualized as claymation), but it definitely seemed worth pursuing. One of these days...

I've heard of Malazan, but wasn't aware it had finally been completed. I'll definitely have to check that out.

Robert Holdstock might be right up your alley. His Ryhope Wood series is one of my absolute favorite fantasies. Check out the first book, Mythago Wood, and see what you think.

If you'd be interested in trying a great, dark YA fantasy, look at Garth Nix's Abhorsen trilogy. It definitely skews toward the A end of YA, and it's not cookie-cutter by any means. You might like his excellent sci-fi novel Shade's Children also.

First of all, it really doesn't end on a cliffhanger, as the main arc comes to a very satisfying conclusion (they achieve what they set out to do, even if there's obviously more to come), and most of the character arcs are also fulfilled; that isn't a cliffhanger, and I think that anyone who says that either doesn't know much about storytelling or throws around the word willy-nilly. I also don't think the exposition or philosophical discussion is all that - usually it's directly related to what's happening, or when the characters themselves go into metaphysics in order to discuss the magic system or the problems they're facing. It's not like something from the 19th century where the story comes to a full stop so that the author can moralize what you've read up to that point - no, that never happens. I don't think the reviews paint an accurate representation at all; it's no different than those reviews that claim that The Lord of the Rings is a glorified travel guide without heart - they just don't get it.

Here's an excerpt from the beginning of the first book, when Kellhus comes into contact with a man outside of his sect for the first time:

Leweth shrugged. “Why, Kellhus? Why would the Gods send you to me?”
For Leweth, Kellhus knew, the world was fraught with gods, ghosts, even demons. It was steeped in their conspiracies, crowded with omens and portents of their capricious humors. Like a second horizon, their designs encompassed the struggles of men—shrouded, cruel, and in the end, always fatal.
For Leweth, discovering him beneath the snowdrifts of Sobel was no accident.
“You wish to know why I’ve come?”
“Why have you come?”
So far Kellhus had avoided any talk of his mission, and Leweth, terrified by the speed with which he had recovered and learned his language, had not asked. But the study had progressed.
“I search for my father, Moenghus,” Kellhus said. “Anasurimbor Moenghus.”
“Is he lost?” Leweth asked, gratified beyond measure by this admission.
“No. He left my people long ago, while I was still a child.”
“Then why do you search for him?”
“Because he sent for me. He asked that I journey to see him.”
Leweth nodded, as though all sons must return to their fathers at some point. “Where is he?”
Kellhus paused for a heartbeat, his eyes apparently fixed upon Leweth, but actually focused on an empty point before him. As a cold man might curl into a ball, gather as much skin as possible into his arms and away from the world, Kellhus withdrew his surfaces from the room and sheltered within his intellect, unmoved by the press of outer events. The legions within were yoked, the variables isolated and extended, and the welter of possible consequences that might follow upon a truthful answer to Leweth’s question bloomed through his soul. The probability trance.
He rose, blinked against the firelight. As with so many questions regarding his mission, the answer was incalculable.
“Shimeh,” Kellhus said at length. “A city far to the south called Shimeh.”

As for Horus Heresy, I'm big on Aaron Dembski-Bowden's stuff. I thought The First Heretic and Betrayer were both incredible reads, and they made Lorgar Aurelian practically my favorite character - ever! Still, while most of the series could be greatly improved upon, I like the overall story enough to forgive the minor issues I have with it. I love tragedies a great deal, and I feel the Horus Heresy event is one of the most tragic things I've encountered in fiction. It totally destroys that image of the Chaos Undivided as a horde of ruthless monsters, and shows you just how wrong and inhuman the Imperium can be.

Malazan is... well... a plagued series... but the world-building is some of the best, at least. The second book in the series, Deadhouse Gates, is an extraordinary read, but sadly the others really don't match up, and Erikson's prose isn't particularly enjoyable. But man, that second book - it will rip your heart out and make you cry like nothing else.

I've added all of those to my to-read list. Right now I'm reading Master and Commander (ships are... really complicated) and making my way through Hemingway's short story collection.