The Third Man - Graham Greene

[easy75]

Just finished The Third Man by Graham Greene.
Thanks for the suggestion Pompey! I have always meant to get around to reading the rest of Graham Greene. This is my fourth and confirms that he's my favorite type of author: Someone who writes a literary page turner. There are fewer of them out there than one might think!
This was a great little story. Managed to be truly surprising, great sense of place, and I had this fantastic movie playing in my mind the whole time I was reading. He really creates a sense of tension/suspense in this story. A stranger in a strange town, things going wildly wrong as soon as he gets there. A mysterious death and shady people all around. I didn't even trust the narrator! Plus a little humor thrown in for good measure. Good stuff.

[Pompey Bum]

I'm glad you enjoyed it and I'm glad it surprised you. I was a little worried when Emil posted the definitive spoiler on the Conrad/Victory thread, and Kev reposted it in a quote. Glad you didn't get it. :)

Now if you get a chance you ought to see the Carol Reed movie, starring Orson Wells and Joseph Cotton, and featuring a spookily bombed out and shadowy Vienna, and the famous zither theme. A tiny detail at the very end of the story is different (and better) in the movie. See of you can catch it.

[kev67]

Am I right in thinking that story was written as a film script?

[Pompey Bum]

I think it was a novella written to be scripted. That's why it's so short.

[Dreamwoven]

The theme tune of the film is very catchy, or it was in 1950. I still sometimes hum it to myself.

[MANICHAEAN]

Did it become dubbed " The Harry Lime" theme, or is my brain addled?

[Dreamwoven]

Yes, that was it. Very catchy tune.

This book would make an excellent subject for a book review in the book review thread (http://www.online-literature.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?6877-Write-a-Book-Review): espionage in Vienna during the cold war.

[BubGoverned]

Is the Third Man fiction or non-fiction? I have read the book "Spycatcher" by Peter Wright, which I understand caused quite a stir when it came out because of some of the allegations that were made. I found a very interesting read.

[Emil Miller]

Greene and Carol Reed were great drinking friends who went out to Vienna to look for possible sites prior to filming. Reed had worked with Robert Krasker, on Odd Man Out three years earlier which had been a success, due not least to Krasker's camerawork, so he was secure in the knowledge that the scenic quality would be right.
It was a stroke of brilliance to get Anton Karas to write the music using only a zither to heighten or lighten the mood as required.
Reed got a nomination for best director but it was Krasker who carried off the Academy Award for best photography.

Here's an interesting video showing some of the key sights that appear in the film contrasted with how they look today. I should add that there are potential SPOILERS included.


http://youtu.be/sbfKibLRqqQ

[Scheherazade]

I love Greene. Haven't read a book of his that has disappointed me so far and I might be inclined to suggest that he was the best British writer of the 20th cc.

~ waits for her brave but silly comment to be shredded into pieces ~

[Dreamwoven]

You can read Third Man on a pdf file: http://www.rsanders.nl/ebooks/The%20Third%20Man.pdf. The Harry Lime theme brings back memories from my childhood.

[Carousel]

Yes the camera work was something special, the kitten, the balloon seller’s giant shadow before he came into sight and possibly the longest single end shot in movie history and much more. I think also that if it were filmed in colour it would have lost half its impact but no doubt some will disagree.

[Ecurb]

Paul Fussell wrote a funny evisceration of Greene's prose. I can't find a link any more, but I apparently copied it once. Here's part of it:


: "[Greene] knows he doesn't write very well, although he thinks his main trouble is ineffective metaphor and blurred visual perception. It is true that his metaphors are very often skewed and vague, but actually his main handicap is his inability to master English syntax and the fine points of English sentence structure....The jacket copy of WAYS OF ESCAPE proclaims that Greene 'is the most distinguished living writer in the English language.' [That statement] is impertinent and illiterate, and the evidence to refute it is so palpable that it's embarrasing. Actually, Greene's writing is so patently improvable that it could serve pedagogic purposes, as follows:

: EXAMINATION: English 345, Expository writing

: The following passages have been written by Mr. Graham Greene in his book "Ways of Escape." They have been passed by his editors and approved by his publishers, who assert that Graham Greene is "the most distinguished living writer in the English language." Rewrite each passage as directed.

: 1. Correct the grammar:

: a. "I am not sure that I detect much promise in [Orient Express] except in the character of Colonel Hartep, the Chief of Police, whom I suspect survived into the world of Aunt Augusta and TRAVELS WITH MY AUNT."

: b. "In my hotel the Ofloffson..., there were three guests besides myself: the Italian manager of the casino and an old American artist and his wife -- a gentle couple whom I cannot deny bore some resemblance to Mr. and Mrs. Smith of [THE COMEDIANS]."

: c. "The day of the Lee-Enfield and the Maxim gun were more favorable to the European than those of the dive-bomber and the Bren."

: 2. Shift the misplaced modifier to the right position:

: "it is only since the Revolution that the Pole, I believe, has changed his habit of only communicating on certain major feast days."

: 3. Eliminate the jargon:

: "What the [Polish] authorities had not realized was the effectiveness of this play [Eliot's MURDER IN THE CATHEDRAL], at this moment in time, in modern dress..."

: 4. Suggest alternative phrasing to eliminate the cliches:

: a. "The game...was not worth the candle."

: b. "These men [at Dien Bien Phu] were aware of what they resembled -- sitting ducks."

: c. "Resettlement was a turn of the screw of discomfort."

: d. "A Ghurka patrol worked by the compass and not by paths. It moved as the crow flies."

: e. "For me to describe Brighton was really a labor of love."

: f. "The sudden arrival in 1931 down a muddy Gloucestershire lane of a Norwegian poet whom I didn't know from Adam seemed uncomfortable."

: 5. Eliminate the awkwardness:

: "A writer's imagination, like the body, fights against all reason against death."

: 6. Eliminate the redundancy:

: "Next day [in Israel] I met a Burmese officer, a Frenchman, a Swede and a Finn (English was the common language they all spoke)."

: 7. Reconstruct the sentence to eliminate excessive prepositions:

: "Suicide was Scobie's inevitable end; the particular motive of his suicide, to save even God from himself, was the final twist of the screw of his inordinate pride."

: 8. Give the sentence a backbone and eliminate the awkwardness:

: "Some critics have found in [TRAVELS WITH MY AUNT] a kind of resume' of my literary career -- a scene in Brighton, the journey on the Orient Express -- and perhaps a hint of this did come to mind by the time Aunt Augusta arrived at the Pera Palace, but what struck me with some uneasiness, when I reread the book the other day, were the suggestions I found in it where the future was going to take me."

: "Be sure your name is on your paper."

[Pompey Bum]

Funny but perfectly ridiculous, too. Greene was unfortunately plagued with that sort of venom in his later years. He had been in some ways a traitor to his class--if only by his then controversial conversion to Catholicism. He had been a cuttingly honest literary critic himself, and that didn't always make him friends. (He was also, apparently, a truly bad husband). But for a more nuanced appreciation of Greene, here is an interesting piece from the New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/17/books/review/17COVTHER.html

[Ecurb]

I've never read any of Greene's novels, although I've read some short stories. So I don't have an opinion one way or another. If Fussell is right about Greene's prose, perhaps the lesson is that elegant and correct prose are not essential qualities of great novels.

I thought some of the writers here might enjoy Fussell's quiz, though.

[Emil Miller]

I've never read any of Greene's novels, although I've read some short stories. So I don't have an opinion one way or another. If Fussell is right about Greene's prose, perhaps the lesson in that elegant and correct prose is not an essential quality of great novels.

I thought some of the writers here might enjoy Fussell's quiz, though.

Paul Fussell was at perfect liberty to point out grammatical faults in Greene's writing, indeed it is a perfectly valid part of literary criticism, but while elegant and correct prose are desirable, these qualities would have sat oddly with the subject matter of a number of his novels that deal with the lower echelons of society and set in what has sometimes been referred to as Greeneland.
Moreover, Fussell didn't write Brighton Rock.

[Pompey Bum]

I find Greene both eloquent and elegant in his prose. But he was a 20th century modernist who tried (and succeeded) to reproduce the idiom and cadence of his day--as many contemporaries tried to do less successfully. Carping at Greene about that has a bogus feeling to it. It reminds me of Harold Bloom's attempts to play the stick-wielding pedant to writers like Donna Tartt, when what really seems to be bothering him is the popularization of the intellectual novel. But of course he (and Fussel) have every right to fuss. I'm just not buying it, that's all.

[easy75]

^ Ditto regarding Greene's prose. I thought he was masterful even before I read this novella. Seems like Fussell might have had a chip on the shoulder....
If perfect grammar serves the author's purpose, great. If it gets in the way of conveying the author's ideas, it should be a secondary concern. Or no concern at all.
I will try to get hold of this movie. I have to confess that I sometimes have trouble appreciating movies made prior to the 70's. LOL. I know that is terrible, but I am 39 years old and many of them are so stylistically different that I tend to glaze over while watching. Love the books of the early and middle twentieth century, but some of the movies are tough for me to get into.

[Scheherazade]

Paul Fussell was at perfect liberty to point out grammatical faults in Greene's writing, indeed it is a perfectly valid part of literary criticism, but while elegant and correct prose are desirable, these qualities would have sat oddly with the subject matter of a number of his novels that deal with the lower echelons of society and set in what has sometimes been referred to as Greeneland.
Moreover, Fussell didn't write Brighton Rock.I cannot believe I am saying this but I agree with Emil on this.

Greene rulez!

[Gilliatt Gurgle]

Greene is one I've kept in the fridge for some time, having first been introduced to the name a few years ago through Emil's posts. (if memory serves me well, his past avatar was an image of Greene).
Anyhow, it's time to warm up the leftovers.
It would seem The Third Man is a good place to start(?).

[Emil Miller]

Greene is one I've kept in the fridge for some time, having first been introduced to the name a few years ago through Emil's posts. (if memory serves me well, his past avatar was an image of Greene).
Anyhow, it's time to warm up the leftovers.
It would seem The Third Man is a good place to start(?).

You are right about the avatar, I changed it after it was vandalised by Scheherezade in a dispute over Elvis Presley.

[Pompey Bum]

You are right about the avatar, I changed it after it was vandalised by Scheherezade in a dispute over Elvis Presley.

Sometimes I regret that it look me so long to find this joint.


It would seem The Third Man is a good place to start(?).

It's a convenient place since it's good and can be read in a day or so. Greene's reputed masterpiece, The Power and the Glory is worth prioritizing, too. It sounds like Emil and I would both recommend Brighton Rock in gushing terms. And I would recommend Our Man in Havana very highly, too. (Be aware, though, that Our Man in Havana contains an extremely offensive word in its first line of dialogue, so if that's off-putting, you should look elsewhere).

Emil: What did the avatar end up looking like? :)

[Emil Miller]

It's a convenient place since it's good and can be read in a day or so. Greene's reputed masterpiece, The Power and the Glory is worth prioritizing, too. It sounds like Emil and I would both recommend Brighton Rock in gushing terms. And I would recommend Our Man in Havana very highly, too. (Be aware, though, that Our Man in Havana contains an extremely offensive word in its first line of dialogue, so if that's off-putting, you should look elsewhere).

Emil: What did the avatar end up looking like? :)


I don't have the Graham Greene moustachioed avatar but if you Google Kaiser Wilhelm II of Germany you will get the general idea.

It came about due to a thread entitled Blue Suede Shoes, in which members were asked about their favourite Elvis Presley recordings.

These were the salient features of the dispute.



Eeech. . . I could never take Elvis seriously. I tried to once. But, nope. Whenever he comes up, I press the "skip" button.



Got to agree with this. Neely posted a video of Heartbreak Hotel on another thread recently and I couldn't stop laughing.
How about ' Won't you let me be your Teddy boy?' as the guys I used to knock around with used to sing. It does bring back some happy memories though of the club for youngsters we used to attend after work and which was held in a girls school. One of the girls had a picture of Elvis pasted on her desk and as the saying goes, a man's gotta do what he's gotta do; so I drew a moustache on it.



You mean like this?

http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/8348/brianv.jpg

:p



Amazing! You have just turned Graham Greene into Kaiser Wilhelm II of Germany.



I think the Kaiser Wilhelm II pic has more panache, no?



Well that may be true, but once the Kaiser had grown it he thought he was the cat's whiskers and sacked Bismark, the German chancellor who stood in the way of his imperial ambitions, and challenged the might of the British Empire. This led on to WW1 at the end of which millions were dead and the balance of power had shifted from Europe to the USA.
Now if instead of wearing that moustache he had worn a pair of blue suede brothel creepers and gone around strumming a guitar and warbling like Elvis he would have been comitted to a lunatic asylum and none of that would have happened.

[Scheherazade]

You are right about the avatar, I changed it after it was vandalised by Scheherezade in a dispute over Elvis Presley.Ahhh, good old days!

:D

As you pointed out, a gal's gotta do, what a she's gotta do!



It would seem The Third Man is a good place to start(?).As Pompey suggests, Our Man in Havana might be a good place to start... Or Brighton Rock.

[Emil Miller]

I think it might be a good idea to point out that Greene's novels fall into two categories i.e the serious works such as Brighton Rock, The Heart of the Matter, The End of the Affair etc. and those he called entertainments. These would include The Confidential Agent, Stamboul Train, England Made Me etc.
Perhaps a good book for someone from the USA to start with would be The Quiet American, which underlines the USA's nascent involvement in Indochina at the point where the French were still fighting to hold onto the colony that would later come to be known as Viet Nam.

[Gilliatt Gurgle]

... And I would recommend Our Man in Havana very highly, too. (Be aware, though, that Our Man in Havana contains an extremely offensive word in its first line of dialogue, so if that's off-putting, you should look elsewhere).

Emil: What did the avatar end up looking like? :)


Ahhh, good old days!

...As Pompey suggests, Our Man in Havana might be a good place to start... Or Brighton Rock.


...Perhaps a good book for someone from the USA to start with would be The Quiet American, which underlines the USA's nascent involvement in Indochina at the point where the French were still fighting to hold onto the colony that would later come to be known as Viet Nam.

Thanks for the suggestions, I'll start with Our Man in Havana, follow up with The Quiet American and in deference to the OP and the topic at hand, The Third Man shall be third.

[Scheherazade]

I nominated Greene's The Power and the Glory for our January reading if anyone is interested:

http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?80794-January-15-Reading-Poll

[easy75]

Watched Brighton Rock this week for the first time. A really cool flick! Thanks for the recommendation. Attenborough was great.

[Pompey Bum]

I nominated Greene's The Power and the Glory for our January reading if anyone is interested

I seconded it, although I've read it twice already. (I don't know if others have that issue, too).

[Scheherazade]

I seconded it, although I've read it twice already. (I don't know if others have that issue, too).
Don't forget to vote! :)

http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?80794-January-15-Reading-Poll&p=1278790#post1278790

[Pompey Bum]

Okay. I just voted.

[easy75]

I'd be up for it, though I would have to get started pretty quick. I've haven't read it yet... When would discussion start?
Also, I don't think I have earned enough points to vote yet.

[Pompey Bum]

It's not that long a read, EZ. What's this about points and reading? Doesn't sound very democratic to me.

[Emil Miller]

For those who haven't read The Power and the Glory, it's worth pointing out that it's Greene's most overtly Catholic novel
and might come as a surprise to readers of The Third Man or Our Man in Havana for example.
Oddly enough, Greene went to Mexico, where the story is set, to escape a libel suit following a review in his capacity
as a film critic, of a Shirley Temple film in which the studio accused him of suggesting they were exploiting the girl for
immoral purposes.
Personally, I didn't like the book which has at least two major inconsistencies in it and unlike many of Greene's
other novels, it doesn't appear to have been filmed.

[Pompey Bum]

I was thinking something similar, although since the Vatican banned the book, it might be better to call it the Catholic Greene's most overtly religious novel. (The pope who banned it is supposed to have told Greene that it was just business--personally he thought it was a pretty good book). I suppose I feel the same way (although I'm not a Catholic). I could see things in the book that I don't accept, but I still found it a moving and intelligent novel. For those who don't know the premise it's about an alcoholic priest with a common law wife who chooses to remain at large during a short-lived persecution of Catholic priests in the Mexican state of Tabasco during the 1930s; even though most of the other priests have already surrendered to the government. I would recommend it (I voted for it), but only if we can discuss matters of faith (and atheism) without going on the warpath. Otherwise, we should read something else.

The movie version (I guess I'm talking to Emil now) was called The Fugitive. It was directed by John Ford and starred Henry Fonda as the whiskey priest. There was also a television version in the early 60s with Sir Laurence Olivier as the priest.

[Emil Miller]

The movie version (I guess I'm talking to Emil now) was called The Fugitive. It was directed by John Ford and starred Henry Fonda as the whiskey priest. There was also a television version in the early 60s with Sir Laurence Olivier as the priest.

Thanks for the info. I imagine that the title was changed because there is an earlier film called The Power and the Glory starring Spencer Tracy but it has nothing to do with Greene's story. I always suspect, perhaps wrongly, that the Vatican doesn't entirely trust converted Catholics because they feel the need to prove themselves and are something of a loose canon. Greene's flirtation with the left wing is unlikely to have impressed the Holy See.

[easy75]

It's not that long a read, EZ. What's this about points and reading? Doesn't sound very democratic to me.
Okay. But I'm right in the middle of an Arkady Renko story that I need to see through to completion. Regarding voting, I tried to vote and it said I was not allowed. Maybe I'm too new. Or maybe it's because I'm black. But how would the computer know? :sosp:


For those who haven't read The Power and the Glory, it's worth pointing out that it's Greene's most overtly Catholic novel
and might come as a surprise to readers of The Third Man or Our Man in Havana for example.
Oddly enough, Greene went to Mexico, where the story is set, to escape a libel suit following a review in his capacity
as a film critic, of a Shirley Temple film in which the studio accused him of suggesting they were exploiting the girl for
immoral purposes.
Personally, I didn't like the book which has at least two major inconsistencies in it and unlike many of Greene's
other novels, it doesn't appear to have been filmed.

Graham Greene was an interesting character, wasn't he? Maybe we should read his biography instead. lol


I would recommend it (I voted for it), but only if we can discuss matters of faith (and atheism) without going on the warpath. Otherwise, we should read something else.

I'm good with that. But I can only vouch for me

[Emil Miller]

Okay. But I'm right in the middle of an Arkady Renko story that I need to see through to completion. Regarding voting, I tried to vote and it said I was not allowed. Maybe I'm too new. Or maybe it's because I'm black. But how would the computer know? :sosp:



Graham Greene was an interesting character, wasn't he? Maybe we should read his biography instead. lol



I'm good with that. But I can only vouch for me


It's nothing to do with being black, yellow, white or any other colour but I believe it's based on the number of posts
a member has submitted.

Yes, Greene certainly was an interesting character and his authorised biographer Norman Sherry is as good a
read as any of Greene's novels

[Pompey Bum]

Thanks for the info. I imagine that the title was changed because there is an earlier film called The Power and the Glory starring Spencer Tracy but it has nothing to do with Greene's story.

It probably had something to do with that, but the studio was surely also trying to downplay the Catholic aspect. There was still a lot of anti-Catholic bigotry in America in 1947, and from a pecuniary point of view, a "Catholic movie" called The Power and the Glory would have been seen as having a much smaller customer base than a John Ford western called The Fugitive. Then as now, the mighty buck ruled.


TI always suspect, perhaps wrongly, that the Vatican doesn't entirely trust converted Catholics because they feel the need to prove themselves and are something of a loose canon. Greene's flirtation with the left wing is unlikely to have impressed the Holy See.

I think you're right, especially when the convert wants to tell his newly chosen orthodoxy how to do things. If you've read Sherry (which I have not), you may know that there was a story that went around that Greene's conversion was never sincere, but cynically calculated--as part of his alleged work for British intelligence? I never quite got the story. And while I don't think that it's generally accepted, neither is it considered a looney conspiracy theory--more of an ugly rumor no one wants to talk about.

But the reason that the Vatican didn't like The Power and the Glory was the bad light in which it put priests and (in their view) the Church itself. The whiskey priest is no hero: he is weak, drunken, promiscuous, and a coward; and the other priests in the novel are bigger cowards. But I think what really bothered them was that the book's resolution could be taken to imply that the Catholic Church lies as a matter of course (I don't want to say more, since not everyone has read it). And since lying is a mortal sin according to Catholic dogma, the book could be rejected on theological grounds. Or maybe that was just a pretext to make Greene persona non grata in Rome--to keep him from spying on them? I don't really know. I'm going to have to break down and read Sherry one of these days.

[Pompey Bum]

Regarding voting, I tried to vote and it said I was not allowed. Maybe I'm too new. Or maybe it's because I'm black. But how would the computer know? :sosp:

I don't know, EZ. We had a religious propaganda bot the other day that somehow knew Ecurb was weak and didn't use evidence. It's getting to be like I, Robot in here these days. :sosp:

As far as the voting goes, I think it sucks, but I guess them's the rules. :-(


Graham Greene was an interesting character, wasn't he? Maybe we should read his biography instead. lol

Well, since his biography (by Norman Sherry) weighs in at just over 1300 pages, we're probably safe in saying that 1) he was an interesting character; and 2) we won't be reading his biography on LitNet.

[easy75]

It's nothing to do with being black, yellow, white or any other colour but I believe it's based on the number of posts
a member has submitted.



I was only joking! I like to joke. I am not to be taken seriously.
:)

[Pompey Bum]

I was only joking! I like to joke. I am not to be taken seriously.
:)

Aw, I knew you weren't really black! :)

Actually I still think it's rotten you can't vote. Next time we have one of these, PM me your choice and I'll vote it for you. We can alternate that way until you have enough posts to vote for yourself. Until then, at least we'll both have .5 votes. Seriously. We noobs have to stick together, right?

[Emil Miller]

I think you're right, especially when the convert wants to tell his newly chosen orthodoxy how to get things right. If you've read Sherry (which I have not), you may know that there is was a story that went around that Greene's conversion was never sincere, but cynically calculated--as part of his alleged work for British intelligence? I never quite got the story. And while I don't think that it's generally accepted, neither is it considered a looney conspiracy theory--more of an ugly rumor no one wants to talk about.



I have just been re-reading the chapter Sherry wrote about Greene's spying activities in MI6 under Kim Philby. Interestingly, he used actual events within the organisation as the basis for Our Man in Havana, and Wormold is based on a real man who was using the service to extract money for imaginary agents. Philby, of course, was a Soviet double agent eventually unmasked when he defected to the former USSR.
Sherry suggests that Greene's resignation from MI6 was because he had come to suspect that his friend was a traitor but didn't want to be a part of any activity that might have exposed him.
You may be right about the Vatican being concerned over the possibility that Greene might have been used to spy on them. After all, the British suspected them of being in sympathy with Germany and they probably had one of the best secret services in the world
.

[easy75]

Aw, I knew you weren't really black! :)

Actually I still think it's rotten you can't vote. Next time we have one of these, PM me your choice and I'll vote it for you. We can alternate that way until you have enough posts to vote for yourself. Until then, at least we'll both have .5 votes. Seriously. We noobs have to stick together, right?

Heehee.
Thanks Pompey! That is a nice gesture. I will have to get posting. Also I got a copy of The Power & The Glory and plan to start this weekend.

[byquist]

One of my top 3-4 films of all times. Could watch it once a week and always find new stuff. Favorite line: "I cannot form an opinion" in Viennese accent of course -- Dr. Vinkle.