NEW USER HERE!! Please help me understand these lines from "The Odyssey"!!

[Bikal Nepal]

I didn't do my fair share of research and ended up buying George Chapman's translated version of The Odyssey which, apparently, is quite tough to grasp in the beginning. I can't return it, so, I'll have to make the best out of it. I'm not familiar with his writing style and that's why I'm having trouble understanding it, so, if you guys will help me make sense of the lines then may be after few pages I'll understand it at a faster pace as I'll grow accustomed to understanding his writing style. I really love poetry and want to read this epic and I'm not a rookie in poetry (I'm new to this forum however)...I've actually written few poems too. So, if you guys will help me understand these lines then it would be really appreciated. Thanks... :)


Though much he thirsted it. O men unwise,
They perish'd by their own impieties,
That in their hunger's rapine would not shun
The oxen of the lofty-going Sun,
Who therefore from their eyes the day bereft 15
Of safe return. These acts, in some part left,
Tell us, as others, deified Seed of Jove.
Now all the rest that austere death outstrove
At Troy's long siege at home safe anchor'd are,
Free from the malice both of sea and war; 20
Only Ulysses is denied access
To wife and home. The grace of Goddesses,
The reverend nymph Calypso, did detain
Him in her caves, past all the race of men
Enflam'd to make him her lov'd lord and spouse. 25
And when the Gods had destin'd that his house,
Which Ithaca on her rough bosom bears,
(The point of time wrought out by ambient years)
Should be his haven, Contention still extends
Her envy to him, even amongst his friends.

I guess this much will give me a good head start. I read the Fagles' version over the internet and found that it is quite easy to understand...and perhaps it was for the good that I unknowingly bought Chapman's version...because it seems like this one will provide more mental stimulation. :)

[Ecurb]

Keats liked Chapman's translation.


24. On first looking into Chapman’s Homer


MUCH have I travell’d in the realms of gold,
And many goodly states and kingdoms seen;
Round many western islands have I been
Which bards in fealty to Apollo hold.
Oft of one wide expanse had I been told 5
That deep-brow’d Homer ruled as his demesne;
Yet did I never breathe its pure serene
Till I heard Chapman speak out loud and bold:
Then felt I like some watcher of the skies
When a new planet swims into his ken; 10
Or like stout Cortez when with eagle eyes
He star’d at the Pacific—and all his men
Look’d at each other with a wild surmise—
Silent, upon a peak in Darien.

Perhaps Keats was a better literary critic than historian, however, since he is doubtless referring to Balboa's eagle eyes staring at the Pacific, not Cortez's.

[Pompey Bum]

I didn't do my fair share of research and ended up buying George Chapman's translated version of The Odyssey which, apparently, is quite tough to grasp in the beginning. I can't return it, so, I'll have to make the best out of it. I'm not familiar with his writing style and that's why I'm having trouble understanding it, so, if you guys will help me make sense of the lines then may be after few pages I'll understand it at a faster pace as I'll grow accustomed to understanding his writing style. I really love poetry and want to read this epic and I'm not a rookie in poetry (I'm new to this forum however)...I've actually written few poems too. So, if you guys will help me understand these lines then it would be really appreciated. Thanks... :)


Though much he thirsted it. O men unwise,
They perish'd by their own impieties,
That in their hunger's rapine would not shun
The oxen of the lofty-going Sun,
Who therefore from their eyes the day bereft 15
Of safe return. These acts, in some part left,
Tell us, as others, deified Seed of Jove.
Now all the rest that austere death outstrove
At Troy's long siege at home safe anchor'd are,
Free from the malice both of sea and war; 20
Only Ulysses is denied access
To wife and home. The grace of Goddesses,
The reverend nymph Calypso, did detain
Him in her caves, past all the race of men
Enflam'd to make him her lov'd lord and spouse. 25
And when the Gods had destin'd that his house,
Which Ithaca on her rough bosom bears,
(The point of time wrought out by ambient years)
Should be his haven, Contention still extends
Her envy to him, even amongst his friends.

I guess this much will give me a good head start. I read the Fagles' version over the internet and found that it is quite easy to understand...and perhaps it was for the good that I unknowingly bought Chapman's version...because it seems like this one will provide more mental stimulation. :)

I'm not entirely sure what you don't understand, but I'll do what I can to help. You are reading a rather clipped off passage from The Odyssey (was there some reason that you didn't start at the first line of the epic, only a bit above?) In any case, the verses you have are from very near the beginning of the work, during the poet's invocation of Calliope, the muse of epic poetry (if you don't know who the muses were, look it up). The invocation of the muse was formulaic: it was the standard way for an epic poet to begin the task of reciting the poem.

In invoking the muse, the poet is in effect asking her to possess him (or to water it down a little, to inspire him) to sing the story of the poem. As part this request, the poet reminds Calliope which epic in her (the muse's) repertoire he or she (the poet) would like to sing. This includes mentioning little bits of the story that is about to be told at greater length. At the point your passage begins, the poet is telling the muse that he wants to recite the poem that contains the part in which Odysseus' men steal the cattle of Helios (Odysseus and Ulysses are the same guy, right?), a sacrilegious crime for which they eventually paid with their lives. The poet reminds the muse that he also wants to hear about Odysseus' fate after his men died, when he was beguiled by (or with? :) ) the sea nymph Calypso and could not journey home.

At that point your passage breaks off. Immediately after it, the poet mentions that he wants to hear the rest of the story, too--and voila! Between the two of them they manage to sing the entire Odyssey.

I'm still not sure what you didn't understand, but I hope my response helped. If you find Chapman too hard, use a modern translator. If you have Fagles, try taking the time to read his (extensive) introduction, which will provide more information on epic structure and formula.

The Odyssey is challenging at first, but more than worth the effort. Good luck.

[Bikal Nepal]

I'm not entirely sure what you don't understand, but I'll do what I can to help. You are reading a rather clipped off passage from The Odyssey (was there some reason that you didn't start at the first line of the epic, only a bit above?) In any case, the verses you have are from very near the beginning of the work, during the poet's invocation of Calliope, the muse of epic poetry (if you don't know who the muses were, look it up). The invocation of the muse was formulaic: it was the standard way for an epic poet to begin the task of reciting the poem.

In invoking the muse, the poet is in effect asking her to possess him (or to water it down a little, to inspire him) to sing the story of the poem. As part this request, the poet reminds Calliope which epic in her (the muse's) repertoire he or she (the poet) would like to sing. This includes mentioning little bits of the story that is about to be told at greater length. At the point your passage begins, the poet is telling the muse that he wants to recite the poem that contains the part in which Odysseus' men steal the cattle of Helios (Odysseus and Ulysses are the same guy, right?), a sacrilegious crime for which they eventually paid with their lives. The poet reminds the muse that he also wants to hear about Odysseus' fate after his men died, when he was beguiled by (or with? :) ) the sea nymph Calypso and could not journey home.

At that point your passage breaks off. Immediately after it, the poet mentions that he wants to hear the rest of the story, too--and voila! Between the two of them they manage to sing the entire Odyssey.

I'm still not sure what you didn't understand, but I hope my response helped. If you find Chapman too hard, use a modern translator. If you have Fagles, try taking the time to read his (extensive) introduction, which will provide more information on epic structure and formula.

The Odyssey is challenging at first, but more than worth the effort. Good luck.


Thank you for replying. Chapman's version uses funny word order, perhaps to keep the accuracy of translation and so it becomes really difficult to understand. Like:


These acts, in some part left,
Tell us, as others, deified Seed of Jove.

What kind of writing is this? What does that "in some part left" and "as others" in that middle mean? and doesn't deified mean "made divine" as in made Seed of Jove (Seed of Jove=Son of Zeus, is it?) i.e. Apollo a god? But Apollo was already a God. Correct? And why would "those" acts suggest that Apollo was deified?

ALSO,


And when the Gods had destin'd that his house,
Which Ithaca on her rough bosom bears,
(The point of time wrought out by ambient years)
Should be his haven, Contention still extends
Her envy to him, even amongst his friends.

Why is "The point of time wrought out by ambient years" written inside brackets and what does that mean? And who is he referring to by "Her"? Is it Calypso? Is it Penelope? But that wouldn't make sense why would his wife envy him?? So, it must be Calypso. But why is she envying him? Is it because he got a chance to leave her and return to his home, Ithaca? "Her envy to him, even amongst his friends" would mean that...she is jealous of Odysseus as well as his friends...No??

Thanks for your suggestion...I will read the introduction by Fagles over the internet!! :)

[ennison]

Are you Nepalese? How good is your everyday conversational English? English is my second language but I heard it from an early age and was never taught in my mother tongue. I might be able to help a little if I know where you are starting from.

[Pompey Bum]

Thank you for replying. Chapman's version uses funny word order, perhaps to keep the accuracy of translation and so it becomes really difficult to understand.

You're welcome. Ancient Greek has very little word order, much of the syntax being governed by case endings of nouns and other complicated but fun weirdness. And "Homer" (or whoever is/are responsible for these works) is especially complicated because the written versions of epics stand at the beginning of the Greek literary tradition, centuries old even in the Classical Age, and representing an oral tradition that went back to the end of the Greek Bronze Age. All of that makes Homer really really really hard to translate. Chapman tries to retain as much of Homer's poetic sense possible though differing word order, and of course he was working with an archaic English that had more flexibility than English writers and translators get today. That's why he "uses funny word order."


What kind of writing is this?

Sublime? Genius? Poetry that can still touch souls after almost three millennia; and that lets us hear the living voices of human beings whose bones were long dust by Jesus' time? Okay, I won't get huffy. Here's what the parts you don't understand mean:


What does that "in some part left" and "as others" in that middle mean? and doesn't deified mean "made divine" as in made Seed of Jove (Seed of Jove=Son of Zeus, is it?) i.e. Apollo a god? But Apollo was already a God. Correct? And why would "those" acts suggest that Apollo was deified?

"Tell us, as others, deified Seed of Jove": "Tell me and my audience, O Calliope" (the muses were the daughters of Zeus, thus "deified seed of Jove"). It had nothing to do with Apollo. The poet is merely invoking the muse, as discussed above.

So what exactly should the goddess tell the poet? "These acts," that is, the theft of the cattle of the sun and the things mentioned before your passage starts. I'm inclined to take "in some parts left" to mean "including all the details I left out when I asked you," although I admit it's a little obscure. I notice that Fagles glosses whatever Chapman took as "and others" as "sing for our times, too."


Why is "The point of time wrought out by ambient years" written inside brackets and what does that mean?

Ancient Greek had a number of ways to show emphasis or its lack. I don't have Homer's text in front of me (and it's been a quarter century since I've even looked at Greek that hard, so it likely wouldn't matter if I did). But probable that Chapman put "The point of time wrought out by ambient years" in parentheses to reflect some device Homer used to "drop his voice" for poetic purposes. For your purposes, it doesn't really matter. It means although the gods had destined Odysseus to return to Ithaca, the actual point in time of his homecoming was drawn out over years.


And who is he referring to by "Her"? Is it Calypso? Is it Penelope? But that wouldn't make sense why would his wife envy him?? So, it must be Calypso. But why is she envying him? Is it because he got a chance to leave her and return to his home, Ithaca? "Her envy to him, even amongst his friends" would mean that...she is jealous of Odysseus as well as his friends...No??

No. As I read it, the subject is the goddess Contention/Strife (Greek: Eris; Latin: Discordia), who put the events of the Trojan War into motion when, envious that she had not been invited to the divine wedding banquet of Peleus and Thetis, she crashed the party and rolled inscribed a golden apple inscribed with the words "To the fairest down the dinner table. The resulting squabbling between goddesses about who should claim the prize led to events that eventually caused the war.

So I read "Contention still extends Her envy to him, even amongst his friends." to mean that, even after all the years, the effects of Eris' envy are still being visited upon Odysseus. "Among his friends" may refer to those still in Ithaca who are trying to steal his wife and kingdom from him, but I'm not quite sure. I suppose it could also be summing up the death of all of Odysseus' shipmates as well. I'm inclined to go with the former.


Thanks for your suggestion...I will read the introduction by Fagles over the internet!! :)

You are welcome. I will have to reread Fagles' Odyssey sometime. I remember that it was an often moving translation. Chapman's, by the way, doesn't have an especially good reputation. It is mainly remembered because it made John Keats feel like "stout Cortez"--discovering, in a particularly egregious fit of poetic license by Keats, the Pacific Ocean.

One footnote before I (finally) shut up. I identified the muse Homer invokes in the passage you read as Calliope, and it is true that, as the muse of a epic poetry, Calliope is usually identified as Homer's muse. But is also true that Homer never identifies her by name, and that many of the traditions about the muses (their number, for example) are not attested until "Homer's" (early) time. It may have been that Homeric tradition doesn't think of her as having a name that matters.

[Pompey Bum]

Thanks for your suggestion...I will read the introduction by Fagles over the internet!! :)

I did get out my copy of Fagles and noticed that the introduction to it that I mentioned is actually by Bernard Knox. Good luck!