The "F" Word.

[MANICHAEAN]

The “F” Word.

Lately on Lit Net Forums we are experiencing an increasing number of shared stories, in which the “F” word constitutes part of the contents. Not that any innocent eyes can discern the actual content, due to the incumbent Iron Dome software that reduces each incoming gros mot to ****.

I thought therefore at this juncture, that it might be useful to share with other members, some personal thoughts on the usage of this very flexible, controversial yet important word.

Firstly let me say up front, that using words in the English language invariably starting with the earlier letters of the alphabet, continues to be part of my everyday working life. But that is the spoken word, which gives ample allowance for effective delivery. A short curt “**** off” is highly instructive in clearing up any misconceptions regarding ones feelings, and although politically incorrect, leaves the recipient with a sensible indication of your current state of/ lack of, gravitas.

Using the “F” word in literature though is a different ball game. It starts off as being, ( like drugs and sex outside of marriage) something that must be tried, or at least indulged in. Its frowned upon by polite society, and therefore being independent minded, I must try it. Fine, but then to what extent?

To swear continuously in writing is to my mind quite simply boring, but to use it in a more subtle manner, actually takes quite a bit of talent. Some of you might be familiar with the British comedy series “Only Fools & Horses,” where Dereck Trotter is accosted by a tart under a London station clock. He thinks mistakenly that it is his blind date, and then when reality dawns, proceeds to tell her in a narrative that is perhaps not completely true to the series;

“Why don’t you ******* take your ******* **** and stick them sideways up your ******* ****”

She responds in a demenour of professional certitude,

“That will be an extra.”

I’m sure by now that the reader appreciates that I use this example as an illustration only, regards the potential of using the “F” word in conditions of humour. Over the years I have found that some of the most effective swear words are those that are original, or encompassed within a twilight zone of gentle incomprehension.

“Naff off,” from Her Royal Highness Princess Anne to a photographer who snapped her being unseated from her horse comes to mind. Another that I was once gratified to hear was from an old Etonian who when upset by a particularly irritating person, commented that “He did not give a fishes tit for Major Hayes Allen.”

Finally in conclusion, you must excuse me if I have rambled on a bit. In fact a few of you might be wishing me to have gone forth and multiplied, but I thought it excusable anyway to get this off my chest.

Regards
M.

[cacian]

MANICHAEAN I am not a fan of the F word and never will.
I feel swearing does not belong in a story or a book.
I don't see the point of it when there are so many other grander words to be had.
so no F word for me I am afraid. ;)

[YesNo]

I don't use it either. I suppose it could be used as part of dialog or comedy, but one wants the characters to be saying something more interesting and use of these types of words by a character might get too much importance.

In literature, I agree, it is likely to bore the reader or even make the reader hostile to the writer.

[Ecurb]

When Harold Ross was editor of the New Yorker, Dorothy Parker promised to complete an article for the magazine by a certain deadline, despite the fact that she had just gotten married and was on her honeymoon.

A day or two before the deadline, Ross wired her, reminding her of the due-date for the story.

Parker wired back (from memory): "Can't make deadline. Too f---ing busy, and vice versa."

Surely nobody would want to expunge that literary anecdote just because it involves a taboo word!

[Mohammad Ahmad]

Using F word is sometimes to support a hallucinant pleasure especially in short stories and some of greedy poets for sex but not all of them.
These motives sometimes will find its way through poetry to amuse the very exhausted irritating souls in love or that cannot know how to use the bright and honest literary words, it is also has been found in the Arabic popular poetry which it is always written in a slang language.

[AuntShecky]

When Harold Ross was editor of the New Yorker, Dorothy Parker promised to complete an article for the magazine by a certain deadline, despite the fact that she had just gotten married and was on her honeymoon.

A day or two before the deadline, Ross wired her, reminding her of the due-date for the story.

Parker wired back (from memory): "Can't make deadline. Too f---ing busy, and vice versa."



Did Western Union allow profanity at the time?

I remember reading this incident in John Lahr's biography, "You Might as Well Live." My memory's not what it used to be,
but I recall it as a "live" exchange btwn Benchely and Dorothy with Ross on the phone. Her reply-- if I'm not mistaken--
was "Tell him I'm too ****ing busy. Or the other way around."

And here's my comment on the original post:

On extremely rare occasions, the word in question is the only one that will do. Please note that I said "extremely rare."

All too often a long string of verboten terms displays only a limited vocabulary and imagination on the part of the speaker. I do enjoy watching dramatic and comedy series on the cable channels exempt from the regulations imposed by the FCC on broadcast channels, but I sometimes think that HBO and others depend entirely too much on explicit sex and language simply because they can.

There have been a number of university studies on the use of profane language. Some research has shown that swearing acts as a "buffer" preventing the initial incident from escalating into physical violence.

Other studies seem to indicate that if a young person uses such language consistently he or --let's face it--she is likely to succumb to violence, the stepping stone, or slippery slope, whatever you want to call it. Look at it this way, if you use the "f" word to describe everything from the weather to the salt shaker, the word itself is going to lose its power. If you swear a proverbial blue streak --and the pressure valve is still ready to blow--what are you going to do? POW--right in the effing kisser! So a word to the wise--use foul language only when absolutely necessary.

Despite all that (note I didn't say "Having said that. . .") -- every bit of me is against censorship. Once the authorities start censoring material for its explicit language, they open the door for all kinds of suppression of political speech and the like.

[Ecurb]

I did a quick internet search:

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:Dorothy_Parker

http://listverse.com/2008/02/05/top-20-quotes-of-dorothy-parker/

http://thinkexist.com/quotation/too_****ing_busy-and_vice_versa--reply_to_her/262678.html


The story is funny whether it's 100% true or not (and I like "or vice versa" better than "or the other way around"). I always hope that when my friends tell funny stories about me they make me seem as witty as possible, even if that involves some judicious editing.

[AuntShecky]

Well,Ecurb, if it's on the Internet, it must be true.

[Ecurb]

When the legend becomes fact, print the legend. -- The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (I think).

[Dark Muse]

Depending upon the story, I think that using swear words in general can bring realism into the story because the truth is that such words are a part of our vocabulary and a lot of people use those words, so it is only natural to me that such language would appear within the dialogue of a story. It doesn't have to be used excessively, but I think there are some situations in which it is certainly understandable why a character would use a swear word. Particularly in moments of anger, frustration, fear, such situations in which a real person in that place would likely use those very same words.

Also sometimes authors use those words to make a particular point about the personality of the character. Sometimes using swear words is just part of who that character is, and the kind of person they are, their background, lifestyle etc.

I am not really bothered by the use of curse words in books.

[Emil Miller]

Also sometimes authors use those words to make a particular point about the personality of the character. Sometimes using swear words is just part of who that character is, and the kind of person they are, their background, lifestyle etc.



The gratuitous use of swearwords is a sign of inadequacy but I agree that as an indication of a fictitious character's personality they can be used sparingly: overuse deadens their effect. Even here, there is no requirement to actually write the word, as asterisks will give a heightened impact to their use. Here's a passage from my novel A Tangled Web in which a duplicitous publicity agent ( aren't they all? ) is talking to a promoter about pop music.

“But you couldn't make the same kind of money that you can now. These days the mugs simply queue up to give you their cash. Get some kids with a stupid name and an electric guitar apiece and start the publicity machine rolling. It’s made both our fortunes but sometimes I feel as if I could scream when another group comes to Inyaface Publicity. If only once, just once, it was someone of real talent and not another ******* pop group.”

[108 fountains]

Agree with all that's been said. Depending on the context, profanity has its place. Jerrybaldy's poem, Us., uses the word "bastard" (admittedly a pretty tame word as an example of profanity) where no other word would have done quite as well. But overuse of swearwords, especially when there is no real need for it, is just annoying, and (to me anyway) comes across as coarse and vulgar. We may speak that way, but there is a difference between speaking and writing, and excessive use even in speaking comes across to me as coarse and vulgar.
I disagree with Emil about the use of asterisks - to me, they are more annoying than the word(s) they replace. But then that's just a matter of taste, as is all of this.

[Ecurb]

I agree (in general) that using asterisks to represent swear words is a bit twee (actually, I just wanted to use the word "twee"). Let's face it, nobody of normal sensitivities is offended by swear words any more, and in Emil's example, the asterisks could represent several words, each of which helps the reader depict a slightly different speaker. Asterisks remind me of regency novels in which someone lives in *****Shire. Does anyone know why 19th century fictional characters' addresses must remain a secret? I've never figured it out.

[108 fountains]

Although it's a bit off-topic, I've wondered the same thing. And also names. Why do so many 19th century fictional characters have no names, or only initials, like Mr. _____ or Dr. S____ V____ ?

[Dark Muse]

I agree (in general) that using asterisks to represent swear words is a bit twee (actually, I just wanted to use the word "twee"). Let's face it, nobody of normal sensitivities is offended by swear words any more, and in Emil's example, the asterisks could represent several words, each of which helps the reader depict a slightly different speaker. Asterisks remind me of regency novels in which someone lives in *****Shire. Does anyone know why 19th century fictional characters' addresses must remain a secret? I've never figured it out.


I agree with you about the use of asterisks. While in some cases it might be obvious what they are saying, in other cases it could be more vague and many different words could be used to fill in the blank,

And even if I know what is meant to be there in place of the asterisks I do not think that seeing a bunch of asterisks there has the same impact as reading the actual word.

Also the use of asterisks in place of swear words is censorship, and I do not like censorship.

[AuntShecky]

I agree (in general) that using asterisks to represent swear words is a bit twee (actually, I just wanted to use the word "twee"). Let's face it, nobody of normal sensitivities is offended by swear words any more, and in Emil's example, the asterisks could represent several words, each of which helps the reader depict a slightly different speaker. Asterisks remind me of regency novels in which someone lives in *****Shire. Does anyone know why 19th century fictional characters' addresses must remain a secret? I've never figured it out.

Anybody who isn't impressed by your vibrant mind and irrepressible sense of humor must have a screw loose. Your posts are terrific in my book.

[WyattGwyon]

Realistic dialogue requires writing the way people speak. Lots of interesting people use profanity. Is there anything more that needs to be said on this topic? Seriously?

[108 fountains]

Realistic dialogue requires writing the way people speak. Lots of interesting people use profanity. Is there anything more that needs to be said on this topic? Seriously?

Well, that’s true. It really is just a matter of taste for the reader. For myself, if I see a ridiculous amount of needless ****’s in the first few paragraphs or pages, I generally say to myself, “F*ck this Sh*t! I can read something else instead.”

[MANICHAEAN]

My personal initiation into the inclusion of swearing in English Literature started when I read Lady Chatterley’s Lover by D.H.Lawrence in 1960. There are no doubt, those of greater knowledge than mine that can go back much further and I would be interested to hear of such instances. The nearest I can get is with Rabelais with his generous treatment of wine and sex, plus his predilection for excretment. But then he was after all a Frenchman.

If one is prepared to accept this as a rough starting date for the use of profanities in English Literature, is not the next question one of present day and future discrimination on the subject by both writers and readers?

Indulge me when I put forward an extract from “Suspended Judgements” by John Cowper Powys published in 1916, which I think is relevant.

“The world divides itself into people who can discriminate and people who cannot discriminate. This is the ultimate test of sensitiveness; and sensitiveness alone separates us and unites us. The art of discrimination is the art of letting oneself go. The difference between interesting and uninteresting critics, is just the difference between those who have refused to let themselves be thus carried away, and those who have not refused. That is why in all the really arresting writers there is something equivocal and disturbing when we come to know them.

Genius itself, in the last analysis, is not so much the possession of unusual vision—as the possession of a certain driving-force, which pushes them on to be themselves.

More and more does it become necessary, as the fashion of new things presses upon us, to clear up in a largely generous manner, the difficult question of the relation of experiment to tradition.

Some claim as a mark of higher aesthetic taste their inability to appreciate traditional beauty. They make their ignorance their virtue; and because they are dull to the delicate things that have charmed the centuries, they clamorously acclaim the latest sensational novelty, as though it had altered the very nature of our human senses.

True discrimination does not ride rough-shod over the past like this. It has felt the past too deeply. It has too much of the past in its own blood. What it does, allowing for a thousand differences of temperament, is to move slowly and warily forward, appropriating the new and assimilating, in an organic manner, the material it offers.”

[Dark Muse]

My personal initiation into the inclusion of swearing in English Literature started when I read Lady Chatterley’s Lover by D.H.Lawrence in 1960. There are no doubt, those of greater knowledge than mine that can go back much further and I would be interested to hear of such instances. The nearest I can get is with Rabelais with his generous treatment of wine and sex, plus his predilection for excretment. But then he was after all a Frenchman.”

I cannot recall if the F word specifically is used, but there is a plethora of obscene language in The Farce of Sodom or the Quintessence of Debauchery by John Wilmot published in 1689, that is as far back as I can go (off the top of my head) in the English language in regards of the use of fowl language.

[MANICHAEAN]

Oh no Dark Muse, lets not get into the "C" word.

[Dreamwoven]

I can never see the point of littering any text with dozens of meaningless expletives, or for that matter any word or phrase, whether it'sbutter or pomegranates.

[Whifflingpin]

From Jaroslav Hašek, in The Good Soldier Švejk: "Life is not a finishing school for young ladies. Everyone speaks the way he is made.... This novel is neither a handbook of drawing-room refinement nor a teaching manual of expression to be used in polite society. It is a historical picture of a certain period in time. Where it is necessary to use a strong expression which was actually said, I am not ashamed of reproducing it exactly as it was. I regard the use of polite circumlocution or asterisks as the stupidest form of sham.... Those who boggle at strong language are cowards, because it is real life which is shocking them, and weaklings like that are the very people who cause most harm to culture and character...."

[Emil Miller]

From Jaroslav , in The Good Soldier Švejk: "Life is not a finishing school for young ladies. Everyone speaks the way he is made.... This novel is neither a handbook of drawing-room refinement nor a teaching manual of expression to be used in polite society. It is a historical picture of a certain period in time. Where it is necessary to use a strong expression which was actually said, I am not ashamed of reproducing it exactly as it was. I regard the use of polite circumlocution or asterisks as the stupidest form of sham.... Those who boggle at strong language are cowards, because it is real life which is shocking them, and weaklings like that are the very people who cause most harm to culture and character...."

Hašek is showing arrogance here. I have used asterisks both for effect and out of respect for my readers who may take offence at foul language. This doesn't mean that I don't use it myself: the air is blue when some irritating computer malfunction annoys me, although I would never use such language in the the company of others. He is very cocksure about his fearlessness in using swearwords and, given his belief in anarchy and vandalism, it's hardly surprising that he had little respect for the feelings of others. It's amusing to surmise whether, were he still alive, he would use the 'N' word: I very much doubt it.

[Manninu88]

It all depends on the frame of reference.

[Ecurb]

The "F" word hardly qualifies as "strong language" anymore. In a way, it's unfortunate that it's been debased. Both its literal meaning and its ability to shock or insult have been lost. In Northanger Abbey, Henry Tilney lectures Catherine about similar dangers involving the word "nice" -- which have since been realized.


“I am sure,” cried Catherine, “I did not mean to say anything wrong; but it is a nice book, and why should not I call it so?”

“Very true,” said Henry, “and this is a very nice day, and we are taking a very nice walk, and you are two very nice young ladies. Oh! It is a very nice word indeed! It does for everything. Originally perhaps it was applied only to express neatness, propriety, delicacy, or refinement — people were nice in their dress, in their sentiments, or their choice. But now every commendation on every subject is comprised in that one word.”

“While, in fact,” cried his sister, “it ought only to be applied to you, without any commendation at all. You are more nice than wise. Come, Miss Morland, let us leave him to meditate over our faults in the utmost propriety of diction, while we praise Udolpho in whatever terms we like best. It is a most interesting work. You are fond of that kind of reading?”

We can be thankful for the sensibilities of those Austen fans who (despite evidence to the contrary) think of Austen as having "nice" manners, that Miss Austen never indulged in a similar diatribe about the "F" word.

p.s. Thanks Auntshecky. I keep meaning to get more involved in the creative boards here, but I've been lazy. I do read and enjoy your posts there.

[Dark Muse]

From Jaroslav Hašek, in The Good Soldier Švejk: "Life is not a finishing school for young ladies. Everyone speaks the way he is made.... This novel is neither a handbook of drawing-room refinement nor a teaching manual of expression to be used in polite society. It is a historical picture of a certain period in time. Where it is necessary to use a strong expression which was actually said, I am not ashamed of reproducing it exactly as it was. I regard the use of polite circumlocution or asterisks as the stupidest form of sham.... Those who boggle at strong language are cowards, because it is real life which is shocking them, and weaklings like that are the very people who cause most harm to culture and character...."

Well stated

[108 fountains]

My personal initiation into the inclusion of swearing in English Literature started when I read Lady Chatterley’s Lover by D.H.Lawrence in 1960. There are no doubt, those of greater knowledge than mine that can go back much further and I would be interested to hear of such instances.

I don’t know if it would qualify as profanity, but one of the bawdiest examples I can think of in early English literature is Chaucer’s The Miller’s Tale (from The Canterbury Tales). One small excerpt will be enough.

The scene is rather complicated, and there’s much more to it than the excerpt below, but in its simplest terms, Absalon has come to Alison’s bedroom window at night hoping to get a kiss from her and not realizing that she is already sleeping with another lover Nicholas. Absalon comes to the window and whispers,

“It's Absalon. My darling little thing,
I've brought for you," said he, "a golden ring.
So help me God, my mother gave it to me. 3795
It's well engraved, it is a fine thing truly.
I'll let you have it for [a] kiss."

Now Nicholas was up to take a piss,
And thought he would improve upon the jape
And have him [Absalon] kiss his arse ere he escape. 3800
He hastened to the window, turned around,
And stuck his bottom out without a sound,
Both buttocks and beyond, right to the thighs.

Then Absalon, who had to strain his eyes,
Said, "Speak, sweet bird, I know not where thou art." 3805
And Nicholas at this let fly a fart
So great it sounded like a thunderclap--
It nearly blinded Absalon, poor chap.*

*Old English modernized in a version available online from Florida State University, http://english.fsu.edu/canterbury/miller.html

In this case, the shock value is pretty high - at least I did not expect to find such ribaldry the first time I ever opened The Canterbury Tales. And I guess this shows that there are indeed contexts where coarseness and vulgarity and words like piss and arse and fart do have their place. But I still personally prefer it in modest amounts.

[Dreamwoven]

The "F" word hardly qualifies as "strong language" anymore. In a way, it's unfortunate that it's been debased. Both its literal meaning and its ability to shock or insult have been lost. In Northanger Abbey, Henry Tilney lectures Catherine about similar dangers involving the word "nice" -- which have since been realized.

We can be thankful for the sensibilities of those Austen fans who (despite evidence to the contrary) think of Austen as having "nice" manners, that Miss Austen never indulged in a similar diatribe about the "F" word.

p.s. Thanks Auntshecky. I keep meaning to get more involved in the creative boards here, but I've been lazy. I do read and enjoy your posts there.


Yes, this is a very good - or perhaps that should be a "nice" - example of cultural differences in a historical perspective.

[Varenne Rodin]

I love well placed swear words. What I hate is censorship.

[mona amon]

I agree (in general) that using asterisks to represent swear words is a bit twee (actually, I just wanted to use the word "twee"). Let's face it, nobody of normal sensitivities is offended by swear words any more, and in Emil's example, the asterisks could represent several words, each of which helps the reader depict a slightly different speaker. Asterisks remind me of regency novels in which someone lives in *****Shire. Does anyone know why 19th century fictional characters' addresses must remain a secret? I've never figured it out.

Not being sure what the asterisks stand for and the 19th century novels reference remind me of this passage in Wuthering Heights -

‘And you, you worthless—’ he broke out as I entered, turning to his daughter-in-law, and employing an epithet as harmless as duck, or sheep, but generally represented by a dash. ‘There you are, at your idle tricks again! The rest of them do earn their bread—you live on my charity! Put your trash away, and find something to do. You shall pay me for the plague of having you eternally in my sight—do you hear, damnable jade?’
What on earth does the dash stand for, I wonder. Surely even Heathcliff wouldn't be calling his own daughter-in-law a bitc h? :skep:

[Frostball]

Not being sure what the asterisks stand for and the 19th century novels reference remind me of this passage in Wuthering Heights -

What on earth does the dash stand for, I wonder. Surely even Heathcliff wouldn't be calling his own daughter-in-law a bitc h? :skep:

That's the word I thought it was.

[Pompey Bum]

Cleland is supposed to have claimed to have written Fanny Hill to show that the story of a prostitute could be told without resorting to vulgar language Nevertheless, I note the following indiscretion:

“This being over, she bid the coachman drive to a shop in St. Paul's Churchyard, where she bought a pair of gloves, which she gave me, and thence renewed her directions to the coachman to drive to her house in *** street..."

Admittedly it was a naughty address.

[BlamePuck]

I feel that an author should only use swear words exclusively in speech or things like an inner monologue. For 1st Person writing I could forgive any number of swear words, because it is undeniably part of human nature to swear or do something similar in situations that warrant it. Stubbing your toe on a coffee table, while cliché, is a perfect example where even the most mild mannered of person may, which watering eyes exclaim "F***!". In regards to 3rd Person prose, I think that swearing should remain purely in speech, monologues, dialogue, conversation etc. The point being that the best writers of our time know what it takes to be a keen observer of the human condition, and they know to make a character that people can empathise with, they have to make the character believable. Modern literature would never have progressed without this and we'd be stuck in world of robotic stock characters that bore us because they don't have the ability to represent human spontaneity. I'm not saying that every other word in a conversation between two characters need to be a swear word, but I think a keen observer of people would shy away from including a couple of "F***s" and maybe even a "C***", provided that it was strictly vital to how the author wants the reader to perceive his creation. I don't agree that the inclusion of taboo language will make the reader hostile towards the author, well not if the writer is actually good at incorporating it into realist speech. However, I think it comes down to personal opinion on taboo language, before hand. If you have a natural dislike of swearing that I think you will naturally dislike swearing in literature.

And when it comes to swearing in the real world, nobody did it better than Churchill:
“Churchill was in the lavatory in the House of Commons and his secretary knocked on the door and said: Excuse me Prime Minister, but the Lord Privy Seal wishes to speak to you. After a pause Churchill replied: Tell His Lordship: I'm sealed on The Privy and can only deal with one s**t at a time”

[MANICHAEAN]

My favourite regards Churchill too, although the version, (not the punch line) that I read in William Manchester's book differs from yours.
If I remember correctly, it was a Labour member in Attlee's post war administration who had used unparliamentary language to Churchill in the House, and was instructed by the PM to go down to Chartwell and apologise.