Posh Writing?!

[cacian]

what do you consider or which book would you call posh as oppose to perhaps trendy or common?

[Poetaster]

To be honest, none.

[Marbles]

We should categorise writing into good, ordinary or pop, and bad.

[kev67]

Evelyn Waugh's books, or Anthony Powell's. Both of them were great writers, nevertheless.

[cacian]

Evelyn Waugh's books, or Anthony Powell's. Both of them were great writers, nevertheless.

were these writers upper class ie posh?

[cacian]

To be honest, none.

I see. I am surprised at that. maybe categorise who reads what according to class.


We should categorise writing into good, ordinary or pop, and bad.

pop? that is new term to me.

[Poetaster]

I see. I am surprised at that. maybe categorise who reads what according to class.

How could you categorize people by class going off of what they read?

[Marbles]

pop? that is new term to me.

Think of EL James, Sidney Sheldon, Sophie Kinsella et al, or soap opera-like cheap romances full of kitsch - which supposedly stand for 'light reading' and which are designed as commercial products to be displayed on shelves at Wal-Mart and Asda.

[kev67]

were these writers upper class ie posh?

I am not sure if they were quite upper class. Upper class is only one down from aristocracy. If they were not upper class, they were upper middle class. According to Wikipedia, Waugh's forebears included judges and scientists. Anthony Powell was married to the sister of Lord Longford. Both went to Oxford University, which was very posh at the time.

[Jackson Richardson]

The Honourable Nancy Mitford was undoubtedly upper class, It is interesting to compare her with her friends Evelyn Waugh and John Betjeman, when it comes to the post-WW2 decline of the aristocracy. Waugh in Brideshead Revistied shows it as tragic and with religious overtones. Mitford herself in the wonderful Love in a Cold Climate regards the aristocratic position pre-WW2 as a bit of a hoot, but there is nothing tragic at all about the great aristocratic house of Montdore dying out as it is inherited by an American gay man picking up handsome lorry drivers.

Nancy herself voted Labour in the 1945 election.

I understand the last of the Mitford sisters (Deborah, Dowager Duchess of Devonshire, has just died. The end of an era.)

[Jackson Richardson]

The point I was making above was that Nancy, born aristocrat, didn't mind the decline of the culture into which she was born and whose shortcomings she could see. Waugh was a middle class romantic and regarded that decline as tragic, because he was projecting values on to it.

[cacian]

How could you categorize people by class going off of what they read?

hi Poetaster I meant one can find out what class read what book.
for example what the common person read as oppose to the upper class.
I mean take the Sun newspaper for example or what it used to be called I am guessing it is mainly read by the common working class
??! or may be not. I don't know.
it is just an idea that way one could categorise a common book from a posh one.

[cacian]

The point I was making above was that Nancy, born aristocrat, didn't mind the decline of the culture into which she was born and whose shortcomings she could see. Waugh was a middle class romantic and regarded that decline as tragic, because he was projecting values on to it.

I assume an aristocrat would write in a style that an aristocrat reads and write and also live and behave.
literature reflect the environment.
Charles Dickens is a good example of both working and upper class writer he combined the two to reflect the environment he was perceiving or he was experiencing.

[Jackson Richardson]

Charles Dickens is a good example of both working and upper class writer he combined the two to reflect the environment he was perceiving or he was experiencing.

Utter drivel, if you don't mind my saying so. Dickens was born bottom of the middle class and he was sent out to work as a child in a bottle factory sticking on labels - undeniably a working class occupation. How on earth is he upper class?

The only aristocrats in his books I can think of are the Honourable Mrs Skewton in Dombey and Son, Sir Lester Dedlock and his relations in Bleak House and Sir Mulberry Hawk in Nicholas Niickleby. All of them are mocked.

Surely a writer's class or ethnic background is transcended in their writing?

[cacian]

Utter drivel, if you don't mind my saying so.
I don't mind :D

Dickens was born bottom of the middle class and he was sent out to work as a child in a bottle factory sticking on labels - undeniably a working class occupation. How on earth is he upper class?
I did not say he was upper class. I said he experienced the upper class otherwise he would not have been able to write out upper class socieities in his books.
for him to write with such a style he must have had experiences/education/time spent amongst aristocracy at some stages.
he must have had dealings with them on a daily basis. his education is certainly not bottom class if he were able to write such impressive literature. I mean again I don't know for sure.
this is just a speculation from my part after all aristocracy upper class are not entirely removed from society they are part of everyday living too. I am sure can be friends with them. they are not the big bad wolf as they are made to appear or portrayed in many books.
may be you do not agree.



The only aristocrats in his books I can think of are the Honourable Mrs Skewton in Dombey and Son, Sir Lester Dedlock and his relations in Bleak House and Sir Mulberry Hawk in Nicholas Niickleby. All of them are mocked.

in order to mock someone you have to have an understanding of them otherwise mocking them without prior knowledge would just come across as ignorant.


Surely a writer's class or ethnic background is transcended in their writing?
of course it has everything to do with it. one cannot separate words with mannerism ie environment. I thought that was the whole point of literature in that it gives you a window on the environment one is bestowed upon or throw into as in some cases.
I thought that was obvious.
I mean on the other hand is there literature written by average bottom class people take a minor for example who worked in the mines day in day out.
where is the literature of the common person?

[Jackson Richardson]

In which case what do you mean by "posh writing" if it only means describing "posh" characters who knows people of that class and includes them in their books?

[Poetaster]

P.G Wodehouse then, would be posh writing, but I don't think only 'posh' people read him.

[cacian]

In which case what do you mean by "posh writing" if it only means describing "posh" characters who knows people of that class and includes them in their books?
posh writing as in slightly higher in style then say an average writing style.

[cacian]

P.G Wodehouse then, would be posh writing, but I don't think only 'posh' people read him.

wow there is someone who left England and became A US citizen. it must be strange to renounce one's culture for another.
I wonder how much of that has affected his style of writing.

I like his poetry. very distinctive
I like this opening stanza from Missed

THE sun in the heavens was beaming,
The breeze bore an odour of hay,
My flannels were spotless and gleaming,
My heart was unclouded and gay;
The ladies, all gaily apparelled,
Sat round looking on at the match,
In the tree-tops the dicky-birds carolled,
All was peace -- till I bungled that catch.

[Poetaster]

wow there is someone who left England and became A US citizen. it must be strange to renounce one's culture for another.
I wonder how much of that has affected his style of writing.


It didn't. He hated his first time in America, and then settled in Long Island when he was a very old man. Nabokov or Ayn Rand would be easily more affected by their exchanging of living quarters.

[Jackson Richardson]

And he continued in the US writing about England and English aristocrats. I don't think you'd ever guess that he was living in America and most of his works were first published in an American magazine.

Which rather puts paid to cacian's theory that the context of the author always tells. There is such a thing as imagination.

[cacian]

And he continued in the US writing about England and English aristocrats. I don't think you'd ever guess that he was living in America and most of his works were first published in an American magazine.

Which rather puts paid to cacian's theory that the context of the author always tells. There is such a thing as imagination.

well I am not so sure.
how does one know his style was not altered by the fact that he became a us citizen?
in fact I suspected when reading his poems that they came across to me as half English and half American in style a combo of style if you life but that is me.
I believe the environment plays the biggest if not the most important role in the way we end up writing. experiences come second,

[Jackson Richardson]

how does one know his style was not altered by the fact that he became a us citizen?,

Because I've read works by him before and after he moved to America.



in fact I suspected when reading his poems that they came across to me as half English and half American,

What poems?



I believe the environment plays the biggest if not the most important role in the way we end up writing. experiences come second,

What's the difference between experience and environment? How can the environment effect someone if they don't experience it?

[WICKES]

I think I know what you mean- books with a sort of refined, aristocratic polish that contain 'upper class' or aristocratic characters, yes? If that is what you mean then start with Evelyn Waugh, especially 'Brideshead Revisited'. Anthony Powell's 'Dance to the Music of Time' is another good example. I'd also recommend Aldous Huxley's Chrome Yellow and anything by P G Wodehouse. All are superb, though Waugh's novels are marred by an ugly streak of snobbery.

Edward St Aubyn's Melrose novels are also excellent.

[cacian]

Because I've read works by him before and after he moved to America.

do you have a sample of both before and after?


What poems?
here is a link
http://www.theotherpages.org/poems/wodeh01.html



What's the difference between experience and environment? How can the environment effect someone if they don't experience it?
I don't think there is a difference, an experience is based on the environment one finds themselves in.
I don't understand your second part of the question.

[Poetaster]

do you have a sample of both before and after?


Look at a Jeeves and Wooster classic like Very Good, Jeeves, compared to the last Jeeves novel he wrote: Aunts Aren't Gentlemen.

[cacian]

Look at a Jeeves and Wooster classic like Very Good, Jeeves, compared to the last Jeeves novel he wrote: Aunts Aren't Gentlemen.

hey thanks I shall :)

[Jackson Richardson]

I don't think there is a difference, an experience is based on the environment one finds themselves in.
I don't understand your second part of the question.

You contrasted environment and experience. I pointed out that unless a person experiences their environment, it will make no difference to them at all.

[Eiseabhal]

Any writer who does not use the word "posh" (and who'd never use abbreviations)

[Pompey Bum]

The only aristocrats in his books I can think of are the Honourable Mrs Skewton in Dombey and Son, Sir Lester Dedlock and his relations in Bleak House and Sir Mulberry Hawk in Nicholas Niickleby. All of them are mocked.

I gave this some thought and came up with Lord Decius of the Circumlocution Office in Little Dorrit, who was also mocked; the supremely good Charles Darnay in A of Two Cities; his utterly despicable uncle, the Marquis St. Evremonde; and a few less reified French aristocrats from the same novel (Monsieur et al.) It is striking how few aristocrats Dickens concerns himself with. I suspect that is because he is ultimately a liberal moralist rather than an agent of class struggle. For him, misery is caused by "wicked men" rather than class oppression. It is only the law of averages that places some of the wicked among the aristocrats.

[MANICHAEAN]

A lot of the characters in Stendhal's " Le Rough et le Noir."

Oscar Wilde's "Lady Windermere's Fan."

[cacian]

A lot of the characters in Stendhal's " Le Rough et le Noir."

Oscar Wilde's "Lady Windermere's Fan."

is fan a play on words?

[Lokasenna]

I did not say he was upper class. I said he experienced the upper class otherwise he would not have been able to write out upper class socieities in his books.
for him to write with such a style he must have had experiences/education/time spent amongst aristocracy at some stages.
he must have had dealings with them on a daily basis. his education is certainly not bottom class if he were able to write such impressive literature. I mean again I don't know for sure.
this is just a speculation from my part after all aristocracy upper class are not entirely removed from society they are part of everyday living too. I am sure can be friends with them. they are not the big bad wolf as they are made to appear or portrayed in many books.
may be you do not agree.

So... people can only write proficiently about the things they have themselves had significant dealings with? A working class author cannot write meaningfully or authentically on aristocratic society without actually having rubbed shoulders with the toffs and nobs?

Well, in that case I'm screwed... I've never met a Viking, nor am I likely to meet one.

Anyway, one's social background need not dictate the nature of one's art. Take John Wilmot, for example: an absolute aristocrat who enjoyed the heady and hedonistic lifestyle of one at the forefront of society, who occupied a prominent and respected position in the royal court, and yet much of his poetry is filled with smut, vileness, and graphic un-romantic sex. It's wonderful stuff - but it isn't in the nature of P. G. Wodehouse or Evelyn Waugh by any means.