Would an omnipotent God need to create a hell?

[Gnostic Bishop]

Would an omnipotent God need to create a hell?


Main Entry:
1 often capitalized : almighty 1
2 : having virtually unlimited authority or influence <an omnipotent ruler>

A loving God, with unlimited influence, at judgment time, would have no trouble influencing a soul to believe and repent.
That would make the following quote true.

2 Peter 3:9 KJ
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

If God is somehow not able to change the attitude or ideas of the soul, the reason for punishment, then to send it to eternal torture or death would serve no purpose and that would mean that punishment would be immoral and no moral God would ever do so.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF6I5VSZVqc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZM3FXlLMug

For those who believe in everlasting punishment or death for souls, I would ask.

What does an omnipotent God need with a hell?

God would cure all afflicted and never lose what could only be perfect as everything has emanated from a perfect God. If the Christian God exists that is.

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect:

Regards
DL

[tonywalt]

Who is the Rock?

[HCabret]

I'm a satanist.

[YesNo]

I'm a panentheist. At least until I find a better word for it.

[HCabret]

I'm a panentheist. At least until I find a better word for it.
I'm a self hating satanist.

[YesNo]

I'm a happy panentheist.

[Lokasenna]

I'm a panentheist. At least until I find a better word for it.

When pressed, I've been known to describe myself as a panendeist,or 'a deist with pantheistic leanings'. I agree, though, that finding a term that exactly expresses something so personal and individual is difficult.

For the record, I don't believe in the concept of Hell.

[YesNo]

As I think about it, I don't believe in Hell either, but if HCabret really is a satanist maybe we'll see a good argument for its existence. There is something to be said for karma, or consequences for one's actions, but hell seems a bit too severe for anything we could do during our lifetimes.

[tonywalt]

Hell is whacking your shins on a low lying fence while photographing a bird. ouch

[HCabret]

As I think about it, I don't believe in Hell either, but if HCabret really is a satanist maybe we'll see a good argument for its existence. There is something to be said for karma, or consequences for one's actions, but hell seems a bit too severe for anything we could do during our lifetimes.im a self-hating satanist. I hate satanism. I'm only a satanist because of the culture I grew up in. My family and friends. My country. The language I'm forced to speak.

Do you know anything about constructivism?

[YesNo]

im a self-hating satanist. I hate satanism. I'm only a satanist because of the culture I grew up in. My family and friends. My country. The language I'm forced to speak.

Do you know anything about constructivism?

Which language are you forced to speak. (Many here don't speak English as their native language, so I can't assume it is English.)

I don't know much about constructivism. In looking it up, I found all kinds of links. Is there a link that describes what you have in mind?

[HCabret]

Which language are you forced to speak. (Many here don't speak English as their native language, so I can't assume it is English.)i was almost banned from site once for not posting in "clear english". Whatever that means.


i don't know much about constructivism. In looking it up, I found all kinds of links. Is there a link that describes what you have in mind?it's the concept that reality is constructed by the mind.

[YesNo]

I think reality is constructed by some Mind or Consciousness. It is not necessarily my own mind. It is a form of idealism. I've been reading George Berkeley recently to see how he interpreted it. My approach to it came from reading about quantum physics.

[Paulclem]

I don't see the need for their to be a God for there to be hell/ hellish conditions. It's not a case of belief or non-belief as hell/ hellish conditions occur on earth- fire, flood, famine, earthquakes etc can all contribute to hellish conditions - temporary or permanent.

Then there are man made hells such as in notorious prisons, concentration camps, war zones etc.

Then there are hellish conditions that originate from oneself such as in the case of people with serious mental health concerns. These might also be temporary or permanent.

The fact that these can occur very easily on earth must pose the possibility that if there are Gods/ A creator God, then the kind of punishment type hell described in some religions may exist.

[YesNo]

I think I agree with that. For there to be hellish conditions there must exist consciousness to be aware of and experience those conditions for hell to exist. There is neither heaven nor hell without consciousness of some sort.

It may seem obvious that we are conscious and so consciousness exists, but there are some who think our consciousness can be reduced to unconscious matter.

Since the universe is not eternal, for there to be an eternal hell (or heaven), one would need a transcendent Consciousness to maintain that timeless hell (or heaven).

[HCabret]

I think I agree with that. For there to be hellish conditions there must exist consciousness to be aware of and experience those conditions for hell to exist. There is neither heaven nor hell without consciousness of some sort.

It may seem obvious that we are conscious and so consciousness exists, but there are some who think our consciousness can be reduced to unconscious matter.

Since the universe is not eternal, for there to be an eternal hell (or heaven), one would need a transcendent Consciousness to maintain that timeless hell (or heaven).panentheism doesn't mean there is a single all powerful consciousness which transcends the universe. That would simply be monotheism. Panetheism states that that the idea of a god, the god or gods, transcends all of existence, including the universe/multiverse. God is created, god creates. God is like Calvin Weir-Fields and God's creations are like Ruby Sparks.

[YesNo]

panentheism doesn't mean there is a single all powerful consciousness which transcends the universe. That would simply be monotheism. Panetheism states that that the idea of a god, the god or gods, transcends all of existence, including the universe/multiverse. God is created, god creates. God is like Calvin Weir-Fields and God's creations are like Ruby Sparks.

I'm not sure what panentheism means. Here's the Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panentheism There are a lot of distinctions involved in these terms that I haven't sorted out.

Panentheism seems to me to be a belief that all is in God and yet Got is more than this all. It could include monotheism.

I saw that movie about Ruby Sparks. Imaginary friends are fine, but I thought his control over her implied solipsism rather than idealism.

[Ecurb]

"Hell" is inconsistent with a benevolent God. I believe only in "heck".

[HCabret]

I think I agree with that. For there to be hellish conditions there must exist consciousness to be aware of and experience those conditions for hell to exist. There is neither heaven nor hell without consciousness of some sort.

It may seem obvious that we are conscious and so consciousness exists, but there are some who think our consciousness can be reduced to unconscious matter.

Since the universe is not eternal, for there to be an eternal hell (or heaven), one would need a transcendent Consciousness to maintain that timeless hell (or heaven).


I'm not sure what panentheism means. Here's the Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panentheism There are a lot of distinctions involved in these terms that I haven't sorted out.

Panentheism seems to me to be a belief that all is in God and yet Got is more than this all. It could include monotheism.

I saw that movie about Ruby Sparks. Imaginary friends are fine, but I thought his control over her implied solipsism rather than idealism.god, for example created, eve, his ideal woman, but she desires freedom from her creator and wants control over her own thoughts and actions, so she rebelled. Free will is not something necessarily given by god, but an inherent part of existence already there prior to the initial creation.

[YesNo]

god, for example created, eve, his ideal woman, but she desires freedom from her creator and wants control over her own thoughts and actions, so she rebelled. Free will is not something necessarily given by god, but an inherent part of existence already there prior to the initial creation.

I assume this is related to the movie Ruby Sparks? If one is conscious, one shares in some free will, and if one can make a choice, one is conscious enough to do so. The movie implied too much control of the writer over Ruby, and even the writer doesn't know what is completely going on.

So perhaps I am agreeing with you. It is not free will that is given, but consciousness.

[Gnostic Bishop]

"Hell" is inconsistent with a benevolent God. I believe only in "heck".

Is life not inconsistent with a benevolent God?

Such a God would create all for the best possible end and most do not see all living to their best possible end.

Regards
DL

[Ecurb]

"As flies to wanton boys are we to the Gods, They kill us for their sport." -- Gloucester, King Lear.

[Poetaster]

Read Milton. Trust me.

[Pike Bishop]

There is no such thing as Karma. If there was, there wouldn't have been a Holocaust; all those Jews certainly didn't have that coming. And there wouldn't be plane crashes either. There's no way 250 people deserve the exact same fate.

[Gnostic Bishop]

There is no such thing as Karma. If there was, there wouldn't have been a Holocaust; all those Jews certainly didn't have that coming. And there wouldn't be plane crashes either. There's no way 250 people deserve the exact same fate.

Yet we all die.

I would not use the word deserve though.

How we die is all the luck of the draw.

Regards
DL

[Pike Bishop]

Death doesn't signify karma, type of death and "time" of death within one's lifespan does. The fact we all die, in itself, couldn't denote karma, since equality of fate negates the difference of fate required for karma to exist. So, thanks for supporting my argument.

Regards
PB


P.s. If how we die is the "luck of the draw," there is no karma either. So, thanks again.

[Pike Bishop]

Is life not inconsistent with a benevolent God?

Such a God would create all for the best possible end and most do not see all living to their best possible end

No, it is not. If God just gave us all the best possible end, there would be no need for us to work or better ourselves to achieve that end. That would truly be a terrible world. And since we all have to die, God couldn't erase unwanted death either. So, no, life does tot prove a benevolent a God doesn't exist.

Regards
PB

[Gnostic Bishop]

I consider work a good way to better ourselves and recommend it highly.

As a Gnostic Christian, I think that the lack of any evidence or proof of a God is proof in itself.

If those who cry wolf cannot show the tracks or **** then they are likely lying.

All religious who claim to have a literal and historic God are idol worshiping liars. Or just sheeple who have yet to start thinking.

Regards
DL

[Melanie]

Firstly, there is "no end" according to God. There is only an end for our physical body but that's just flesh and bones that ends up "dust to dust and ashes to ashes". Our spiritual body (or soul as some put it) lives on for eternity.

Secondly, the "best possible end" (as you say it) or rather the "best possible destination for eternity" (as God says it) is a choice God has left up to us. If we hadn't been given the choice then we would have been created as robots (which wasn't God's desire). And that choice is a choice of just believing. It has nothing to do with "WORKING to better ourselves"…but it has everything to do with the fact that, when we believe with all our heart mind and soul, the the RESULT is a better us. There are 101 scriptures where God says; It's not of works but rather a gift through faith. See all 101 below.

Thirdly, regarding the Jews in the Holocaust or the 250 airplane crash victims, it's not about "not deserving" how we die. It's about what we deserve in eternity. Persecution and suffering will be replaced with rewards in our eternal life. Compared to our time in eternity, our time here on earth is but a speck. While we are here on earth, it's about how faithful we remain to God despite our persecution and suffering. Not everyone is getting what they deserve on earth but everyone will get what they deserve in eternity.

Regarding "Secondly" above:
Eph. 2:8-9 - "For BY GRACE are ye SAVED THROUGH FAITH; and that NOT OF
YOURSELVES: it is the GIFT of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast."
Here's 100 more scriptures that say it's not by works. We can't earn our way to heaven so to speak:
http://gochristianhelps.com/tracts/stl/notworks.htm

If you're going to respond to this post, please don't take anything I've said out of context, nor reword anything, nor twist my words for a different meaning. Thanks :)

[Gnostic Bishop]

Firstly, there is "no end" according to God. There is only an end for our physical body but that's just flesh and bones that ends up "dust to dust and ashes to ashes". Our spiritual body (or soul as some put it) lives on for eternity.

Secondly, the "best possible end" (as you say it) or rather the "best possible destination for eternity" (as God says it) is a choice God has left up to us. If we hadn't been given the choice then we would have been created as robots (which wasn't God's desire). And that choice is a choice of just believing. It has nothing to do with "WORKING to better ourselves"…but it has everything to do with the fact that, when we believe with all our heart mind and soul, the the RESULT is a better us. There are 101 scriptures where God says; It's not of works but rather a gift through faith. See all 101 below.

Thirdly, regarding the Jews in the Holocaust or the 250 airplane crash victims, it's not about "not deserving" how we die. It's about what we deserve in eternity. Persecution and suffering will be replaced with rewards in our eternal life. Compared to our time in eternity, our time here on earth is but a speck. While we are here on earth, it's about how faithful we remain to God despite our persecution and suffering. Not everyone is getting what they deserve on earth but everyone will get what they deserve in eternity.

Regarding "Secondly" above:
Eph. 2:8-9 - "For BY GRACE are ye SAVED THROUGH FAITH; and that NOT OF
YOURSELVES: it is the GIFT of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast."
Here's 100 more scriptures that say it's not by works. We can't earn our way to heaven so to speak:
http://gochristianhelps.com/tracts/stl/notworks.htm

If you're going to respond to this post, please don't take anything I've said out of context, nor reword anything, nor twist my words for a different meaning. Thanks :)

So what you are saying is that you will accept the immoral notion of substitutionary atonement from Jesus just to make sure you keep your go to heaven free card.

IOW. You sold your soul to Satan in the hopes of gaining heaven.

Care to debate the morality of what you are doing?

Imagine you have two children. One of your children does something wrong – say it curses, or throws a temper tantrum, or something like that. In fact, say it does this on a regular basis, and you continually forgive your child, but it never seems to change.

Now suppose one day you’ve had enough, you need to do something different. You still wish to forgive your child, but nothing has worked. Do you go to your second child, your good child, and punish it to atone for the sins of the first?

In fact, if you ever saw a parent on the street punish one of their children for the actions of their other child, how would you react? Would you support their decision, or would you be offended? Because God punished Jesus -- his good child -- for the sins of his other children.

Interestingly, some historical royal families would beat their slaves when their own children did wrong – you should not, after all, ever beat a prince. The question is: what kind of lesson does that teach the child who actually did the harm? Does it teach them to be a better person, to stop doing harm, or does it teach them both that they won't themselves be punished, and also that punishing other people is normal? I know that's not a lesson I would want to teach my children, and I suspect it's not a lesson most Christians would want to teach theirs. So why does God?

For me, that’s at least one significant reason I find Jesus’ atonement of our sin to be morally repugnant – of course, that’s assuming Jesus ever existed; that original sin actually exists; that God actually exists; etc.

Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

Do you agree?

Regards
DL

[Melanie]

GnosticBishop, the last line of my post said, "If you're going to respond to this post, please don't take anything I've said out of context, nor reword anything, nor twist my words for a different meaning."
The first line of your post says "So what you are saying is that you will…"
Oh dear, you immediately violated my request by putting words in my mouth that weren't there. No, I didn't say any of what you accused me of.

Next, I believe you are talking about God the Father, manifested as man, as God the Son (Jesus), so that he could pay our punishment for man's sins…so that by his grace we are forgiven. It's not exactly a "free card" because we have to do our part…believe. Keep in mind here that if we don't sincerely believe then we aren't freely forgiven. Read The Parable of the Sower in Matthew 13. And also keep in mind, that if we truly believe then the result will be a desire to do God's will, obey him, seek him first in all things, and follow him. Since we are human we can't be perfect with this but God knows our hearts. If we continually sin the same sin and aren't sorry nor repent then that will indicate that we never really believed in the first place.

Lastly, there is no escaping natural consequences for any of us. We all suffer natural consequences for our wrongs, including believers. That punishment is not from God. It's from man.
Non-believers will suffer an eternal punishment as well. Believers won't suffer any eternal punishment according to God but when they sin on earth they will naturally suffer a loss of having a close relationship with God and a loss of his blessings…and other natural consequences.

All of what I've said is directly from God's Word.

[cacian]

omnipotent??
god?
normally logically someone with super powers does not need hell otherwise the power is pointless.

[Melanie]

Yes, God is Omnipotent and, yes, hell is part of God's intricate plan of good and evil so that he could create man with a choice. Yes, God knows ahead of time what our choices are, but that doesn't make those choices between good and evil pointless.

God made man so he could have a relationship with him. It's more intricate than our minds can fathom. He's given us all a purpose here on earth to love one another, to love Him, to reach out and help those in need, to take care of his creation, to study his Word to make us approved, he wants us to carry out the prophesies, to carry out his plan, etc. We've each been given a talent and a purpose. It's our job to find what it is and use it.

It's his plan for us to fellowship with one another. Wouldn't it be a bore if we were all the same like robots? Whether he knows how we're going to turn out it doesn't matter in his plan because his plan is for us to play it out as best as we can with the ability to choose between the options we've been given so we can grow into a closer relationship with our Creator and with our fellow man.

[Pike Bishop]

I consider work a good way to better ourselves and recommend it highly.

As a Gnostic Christian, I think that the lack of any evidence or proof of a God is proof in itself.

If those who cry wolf cannot show the tracks or **** then they are likely lying.

All religious who claim to have a literal and historic God are idol worshiping liars. Or just sheeple who have yet to start thinking.

Regards
DL

Yet you said a good God would make it so we wouldn't even have to work; He would just give us the best of possible ends. So, your arguments are again countering each other.

Also, there are two significant problems with your evidence statement:

1. Aquinas has made a very compelling argument that the order of nature and the existence of free will do necessitate an "unmoved mover" and are evidence of God. So, you're just saying there is no evidence of God without supporting that statement does not make it true.

2. There are many scientific theories in theoretical physics--such as String Theory and Black Holes--that are considered legitimate without actual physical evidence. So, the absence of existing evidence proving God exists does not, in itself, prove God doesn't exist either. There is no actual proof "Love" exists either, but many people seem to believe in that as well.

Finally, you claim to be a Gnostic Christian who rudely calls those who believe in a literal God "sheepies"...are those the manners taught to Gnostic Christians? So, my question to you is why, exactly, are you a Christian? Did some mystical message come to you and tell you Christ is the savior? Because, if it did, you have no evidence you weren't just hallucinating, and that would be poor evidence to base your religious beliefs on.

[Pike Bishop]

Look below.

[Pike Bishop]

Believers won't suffer any eternal punishment according to God but when they sin on earth they will naturally suffer a loss of having a close relationship with God and a loss of his blessings…and other natural consequences.

So, you're saying non-believers will go to hell, but all of the Nazis will go straight to heaven because they believed in Christ. No, that would not be the metaphysical justice system of a Good, Rational God. That's just what believing Christians tell themselves so they can do anything they want and believe they will get off scott free. There are many things in the Bible that are ridiculous. Saying all evil believers go straight to Heaven just because they "found" Christ is one of them.

[Melanie]

So, you're saying non-believers will go to hell, but most of the Nazis will go straight to heaven because they believed in Christ. No, that would not be the metaphysical justice system of a Good, Rational God. That's just what believing Christians tell themselves so they can do anything they want and get off scott free. There are many things in the Bible that are ridiculous. Saying all evil believers go straight to Heaven just because they "found" Christ is one of them.
How do you know the Nazi's truly and sincerely believed in Christ?? Only God knows the answer to that. Only God knows their hearts. Anything short of God's answer to that is purely judgement and guessing on our part. In the Bible, God says "you say Lord Lord but you know me not". In other words, someone can say they believe in God but their heart proves they don't. And only God knows their heart.

And I didn't say all "evil" believers will go straight to heaven. If they are truly believers in their heart then I might say they were disobedient believers who will confess and repent of their sin...but not "evil".

[Pike Bishop]

How do you know the Nazi's truly and sincerely believed in Christ?? Only God knows the answer to that. Only God knows their hearts. Anything short of God's answer to that is purely judgement and guessing on our part. In the Bible, God says "you say Lord Lord but you know me not". In other words, someone can say they believe in God but their heart proves they don't. And only God knows their heart.

How do you know they didn't? Many Nazis went to church and claimed to honestly believe; who are you to say otherwise? Millions of Christians claimed to believe in Christ and participated in slavery, murder, and rape and still believed in Christ; who are you to say otherwise? Just because people did those horrible things doesn't mean they didn't believe in Christ and God; it is very possible to believe in something and act against those beliefs. People do it everyday, and it's not your place to say they didn't. As you said, only God knows their heart; you don't.

And yet you would give all believers a free pass to Heaven just because they believe in Christ and God. As I said, before, that's just another ridiculous theory that no Good God would support, and it shows there are many things in the Bible that are wrong.

[Melanie]

How do you know they didn't? Many Nazis went to church and claimed to honestly believe; who are you to say otherwise? Millions of Christians claimed to believe in Christ and participated in slavery, murder, and rape and still believed in Christ; who are you to say otherwise? Just because people did those horrible things doesn't mean they didn't believe in Christ and God; it is very possible to believe in something and act against those beliefs. People do it everyday, and it's not your place to say they didn't. As you said, only God knows their heart; you don't. And yet you would give all believers a free pass to Heaven just because they believe in Christ and God. As I said, before, that's just another ridiculous theory that no Good God would support, and it shows there are many things in the Bible that are wrong.
Lots of people go to church but don't truly believe in their hearts. I didn't say "Nazis didn't know Christ" and I didn't say "they knew Christ". I said just the opposite. I said, "Only God knows the answer to that. Only God knows their hearts".

I agreed with you regarding "it is very possible to believe in something and act against those beliefs" when I clearly stated in post #31, "if we don't sincerely believe then we aren't freely forgiven. Read The Parable of the Sower in Matthew 13. And also keep in mind, that if we truly believe then the result will be a desire to do God's will, obey him, seek him first in all things, and follow him. Since we are human we can't be perfect with this but God knows our hearts. If we continually sin the same sin and aren't sorry nor repent then that will indicate that we never really believed in the first place."

We're all sinners…including Christians…but true believers will be sorry for what they did and try not to repeat the offense. God will forgive a believer if their confession and change of behavior is sincere…he knows their heart. He also knows the heart of someone who "talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk" repeatedly.

[Pike Bishop]

Lots of people go to church but don't truly believe in their hearts. I didn't say "Nazis didn't know Christ" and I didn't say "they knew Christ". I said just the opposite. I said, "Only God knows the answer to that. Only God knows their hearts".

I agreed with you regarding "it is very possible to believe in something and act against those beliefs" when I clearly stated in post #31, "if we don't sincerely believe then we aren't freely forgiven. Read The Parable of the Sower in Matthew 13. And also keep in mind, that if we truly believe then the result will be a desire to do God's will, obey him, seek him first in all things, and follow him. Since we are human we can't be perfect with this but God knows our hearts. If we continually sin the same sin and aren't sorry nor repent then that will indicate that we never really believed in the first place."

We're all sinners…including Christians…but true believers will be sorry for what they did and try not to repeat the offense. God will forgive a believer if their confession and change of behavior is sincere…he knows their heart. He also knows the heart of someone who "talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk".

You did ask the rhetorical question, "How do you know the Nazi's truly and sincerely believed in Christ??," which did suggest your believing they didn't sincerely believe in Christ. So, you didn't say "just the opposite." However, we now agree the Nazis very well could have believed in Christ, and you believe that would earn them a ticket to Heaven despite their evils...and that is both terrible and nonsensical.

And your "we can't be perfect with this but God knows our hearts" is also a cop-out that lets people who do terrible things but have "good hearts" go to heaven while good believers of other religions go to Hell. A good God wouldn't do that. He also wouldn't accept the confessions of believers who did horrible things like Nazis while sending non-believers who did much less to Hell. I'm sorry, what you envision is not the metaphysical universe of a good God, it is an exclusionary private "club" only exclusionary humans would dream up.

[Melanie]

You did ask the rhetorical question, "How do you know the Nazi's truly and sincerely believed in Christ??," which did suggest your believing they didn't sincerely believe in Christ. So, you didn't say "just the opposite." However, we now agree the Nazis very well could have believed in Christ, and you believe that would earn them a ticket to Heaven despite their evils...and that is both terrible and nonsensical.

And your "we can't be perfect with this but God knows our hearts" is also a cop-out that lets people who do terrible things but have "good hearts" go to heaven while good believers of other religions go to Hell. A good God wouldn't do that. He also wouldn't accept the confessions of believers who did horrible things like Nazis while sending non-believers who did much less to Hell. I'm sorry, what you envision is not the metaphysical universe of a good God, it is an exclusionary private "club" only exclusionary humans would dream up.
Please stop telling me I've said things or believe things I haven't. Please don't manipulate and twist my words. I repeat, I did not say nor suggest I "believe the Nazis didn't sincerely believe in Christ". I asked you how YOU know and clearly said ONLY God knows man's heart! And no I didn't say they could VERY well be anything nor EARN them anything….that's GODs call…please reread if you're not getting this message correctly.

You're last paragraph…i will repeat…it's God's call. I won't waste any more time on repeating myself. But I will say this; God says, "By their fruits you shall know them". Fruits are things that we do in serving God that are pleasing to God.

[Pike Bishop]

Please stop telling me I've said things or believe things I haven't! Please don't manipulate and twist my words! I did not say nor suggest I "believe the Nazis didn't sincerely believe in Christ". I asked you how YOU know and clearly said ONLY God knows man's heart! And no I didn't say they could VERY well be anything nor EARN them anything….that's GODs call…please reread if you're not getting this message correctly. You're last paragraph…i will repeat…it's God's call. I won't waste any more time on repeating myself. But I will say this; God says, "By their fruits you shall know them". Fruits are things that we do in serving God that are pleasing to God.

I never said you directly said the "Nazis didn't sincerely believe in Christ." Now, you're telling me I've said things I haven't. I correctly said: "You did ask the rhetorical question, 'How do you know the Nazi's truly and sincerely believed in Christ??,' which did suggest your believing they didn't sincerely believe in Christ." You did ask that rhetorical question, and it did suggest what I said it did. And try to avoid all those exclamation points and all-caps; Christians should be calm when discussing their religious beliefs and not try to shout out their interlocutor.

And you also specifically said this:

"We're all sinners…including Christians…but true believers will be sorry for what they did and try not to repeat the offense. God will forgive a believer if their confession and change of behavior is sincere…he knows their heart."

So, you did say any Christian, including a Nazi, who is sorry for what s/he did and tried not to repeat the offense would be forgiven to God and given their ticket to Heaven. So, you were saying their being Christian would earn them a ticket to heaven. You didn't say the same thing about Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, or Atheists; so it is clear you see God's Heaven (and universe) as a private club for those who believe in his human self. No Good God would create or tolerate such a universe.

[Melanie]

…which did suggest your believing...You did ask that rhetorical question, and it did suggest what I said it did.
My editing out out of 2 exclamation points at 2:24 happened before your post at 2:29 where you told me how to act as a Christian by "avoiding all those exclamations" lol.
I don't care if you agree with me but please don't tell me my posts "suggest" things that are in your head, not mine nor God's. I'm not trying to win "discussions" nor win souls. I'm just being a voice here for God. When I enter the discussion, and make some intelligent sense by just stating what God says about a particular subject, then some others start pulling out all stops with a need to tell me that I'm "suggesting" this or that. Or they manipulate my posts in their favor to "win". I don't need to win. You win, okay? Handshake.

[Pike Bishop]

My editing out out of 2 exclamation points at 2:24 happened before your post at 2:29 where you told me how to act as a Christian by "avoiding all those exclamations" lol.
I don't care if you agree with me but please don't tell me my posts "suggest" things that are in your head, not mine nor God's. I'm not trying to win "discussions" nor win souls. I'm just being a voice here for God. When I enter the discussion, and make some intelligent sense by just stating what God says about a particular subject, then some others start pulling out all stops with a need to tell me that I'm "suggesting" this or that. Or they manipulate my posts in their favor to "win". I don't need to win. You win, okay? Handshake.

I didn't tell you your posts suggested things that are "in my head;" that false suggestion comes solely from your head. I correctly said what your question and statements suggested because they did suggest it. So, the only one "trying to win" is you. And don't play such the victim; it shows the erroneous pride Christians should avoid. As I showed in my posts above, the only one making incorrect suggestions and manipulating posts has been you. I, myself, don't need to win. However, since you claim you don't either, I don't expect another post from you. Handshake.

[Gnostic Bishop]

GnosticBishop, the last line of my post said, "If you're going to respond to this post, please don't take anything I've said out of context, nor reword anything, nor twist my words for a different meaning."
The first line of your post says "So what you are saying is that you will…"
Oh dear, you immediately violated my request by putting words in my mouth that weren't there. No, I didn't say any of what you accused me of. Please use good discussion skills so as to have a productive discussion.

Next, I believe you are talking about God the Father, manifested as man, as God the Son (Jesus), so that he could pay our punishment for man's sins…so that by his grace we are forgiven. It's not exactly a "free card" because we have to do our part…believe. Keep in mind here that if we don't sincerely believe then we aren't freely forgiven. Read The Parable of the Sower in Matthew 13. And also keep in mind, that if we truly believe then the result will be a desire to do God's will, obey him, seek him first in all things, and follow him. Since we are human we can't be perfect with this but God knows our hearts. If we continually sin the same sin and aren't sorry nor repent then that will indicate that we never really believed in the first place.

Lastly, there is no escaping natural consequences for any of us. We all suffer natural consequences for our wrongs, including believers. That punishment is not from God. It's from man.
Non-believers will suffer an eternal punishment as well. Believers won't suffer any eternal punishment according to God but when they sin on earth they will naturally suffer a loss of having a close relationship with God and a loss of his blessings…and other natural consequences.

All of what I've said is directly from God's Word.

Yes but only fools believe it is the words of a God.

Nice that you have embraced human sacrifice and the punishment of the innocent over the guilty, --- thus showing how your religion has corrupted your morality. Satan loves your works.

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Bishop]

omnipotent??
god?
normally logically someone with super powers does not need hell otherwise the power is pointless.

Exactly why I set the O.P.

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Bishop]

Yes, God is Omnipotent and, yes, hell is part of God's intricate plan of good and evil so that he could create man with a choice. Yes, God knows ahead of time what our choices are, but that doesn't make those choices between good and evil pointless.

God made man so he could have a relationship with him. It's more intricate than our minds can fathom. He's given us all a purpose here on earth to love one another, to love Him, to reach out and help those in need, to take care of his creation, to study his Word to make us approved, he wants us to carry out the prophesies, to carry out his plan, etc. We've each been given a talent and a purpose. It's our job to find what it is and use it.

It's his plan for us to fellowship with one another. Wouldn't it be a bore if we were all the same like robots? Whether he knows how we're going to turn out it doesn't matter in his plan because his plan is for us to play it out as best as we can with the ability to choose between the options we've been given so we can grow into a closer relationship with our Creator and with our fellow man.

Fellowship?

From a religion that is homophobic and misogynous?

Your kidding. Right?

Have you not noted how you are a second class citizen according to your own religion, woman?

He shall rule over you.

Regards
DL

[Clopin]

This thread was a chore to read, can everyone just stop replying to Pike Bishop?

[Gnostic Bishop]

Yet you said a good God would make it so we wouldn't even have to work; He would just give us the best of possible ends. So, your arguments are again countering each other.

I did not say that we would not have to work. You are the one putting words in my mouth.


Also, there are two significant problems with your evidence statement:

1. Aquinas has made a very compelling argument that the order of nature and the existence of free will do necessitate an "unmoved mover" and are evidence of God. So, you're just saying there is no evidence of God without supporting that statement does not make it true.

He was wrong. You cannot prove him right.


2. There are many scientific theories in theoretical physics--such as String Theory and Black Holes--that are considered legitimate without actual physical evidence. So, the absence of existing evidence proving God exists does not, in itself, prove God doesn't exist either. There is no actual proof "Love" exists either, but many people seem to believe in that as well.

Yes but the argument is over God's existence not over the existence of all thinks that we have yet to prove.


Finally, you claim to be a Gnostic Christian who rudely calls those who believe in a literal God "sheepies"...are those the manners taught to Gnostic Christians? So, my question to you is why, exactly, are you a Christian? Did some mystical message come to you and tell you Christ is the savior? Because, if it did, you have no evidence you weren't just hallucinating, and that would be poor evidence to base your religious beliefs on.

No. My apotheosis showed the moral opposite of Jesus' vicarious atonement and that shows that Christians are immoral as they have accepted a scapegoat as their savior.

Regards
DL

[Pike Bishop]

Look below

[Pike Bishop]

This thread was a chore to read, can everyone just stop replying to Pike Bishop?

What a wonderfully mature and salient comment, Clopin. If you actually have anything of value to say, and want to address my post like a grown-up, please do. Otherwise, it's best you stop your trolling.

Yes, you're still on ignore, but I figured you would make a rude troll post, and you didn't disappoint...;)

[Pike Bishop]

No. My apotheosis showed the moral opposite of Jesus' vicarious atonement and that shows that Christians are immoral as they have accepted a scapegoat as their savior.

Regards
DL

You have no more proof of your apotheosis than literal Christians do of the proof of God. So, your expecting people to believe it is as irrational as the beliefs of those you judge and criticize. And if you claim to be a Christian, you are as immoral as those whom you--again--judge and criticize. If you want to prove your apotheosis wasn't just a hallucination however, please feel free to do so.

Regards
PB

[Pike Bishop]

No. My apotheosis showed the moral opposite of Jesus' vicarious atonement and that shows that Christians are immoral as they have accepted a scapegoat as their savior.

1. I did not say that we would not have to work. You are the one putting words in my mouth.
2. He was wrong. You cannot prove him right.
3. Yes but the argument is over God's existence not over the existence of all thinks that we have yet to prove.

Regards
DL



As to your responses to my posts:

1. You did say a perfect world would be one where everyone would meet perfect ends. So, if God guaranteed that, then we wouldn't have to work for it. So, you did say a perfect world would be one where we wouldn't have to work...nobody put words in your mouth but you.

2. You say Aquinas was wrong, but you can't prove him wrong. I never said Aquinas could be proven right; that's a strawman on your part. I said he made a compelling argument, and like other compelling theories without clear evidence, it still had logic to it. You however can't prove your apotheosis at all.

3. The argument we are having is whether the theory of God's existence is legitimate. So, similar theories that can't be proven but are still accepted or believed in are absolutely relevant. So, the fact we--and perhaps you--believe in Love, String Theory, and Black Holes without physical evidence of them does show belief in God without evidence can be legitimate.

Regards,
PB

[kiki1982]

According to common Christian theology, Hell was created because Satan, who was an angel, rebelled against God and God cast him and his friends into hell. Where else did He have to put them? He couldn't keep them in Heaven now, could He?

So the duality between Heaven and Hell was created because Satan tempts people, whom God has given free will to choose what they want. So essentially God created evil as well as good, because He created Satan who turned out to be a selfish nasty piece of work. Of course He didn't have to give man free will, but then He thought that was a good idea. Until Eve made a bad job of it and decided to believe the serpent instead of follow God's counsel. You find that duality between good and evil pretty much everywhere.

Personally I don't see what the discussion is about really. Hell does not necessarily exist. Pope John Paul II said it 'was a place', whereas Benedict XVI toned that down to a state and this one, I'm not sure; He would maybe be inclined to say it didn't exist at all for some people. Personally I don't believe in it as a place, as this Christian God is a God of love, so why does He need Hell? Maybe to punish the really really bad? Worse than the murderer, because he can be forgiven. When it suits me, I'd say it's a state of mind,even in life, but personally I don't think any person is beyond forgiveness by an infinitely good and wise being.

Anyway, who decided Jesus was punished for anything by His Father? a) Jesus was God and the Son and part of the holy trinity, so God cannot punish Himself because He's perfect and b) it was always clear that Jesus' crucifixion wasn't a punishment. What would it have been a punishment for? His sins, which He didn't have? He did not even have the birth sin which we absolve babies from when we baptise them, because Jesus wasn't made by sex, but just created in His mother's womb by the Holy Ghost. Or so is the axiom the Church wishes us to believe. I have difficulties with that, but anyway, Jesus can't have been punished because He was perfect. Jesus was a sacrifice to wipe away the sins of humanity. Or that's what's taught.

The Nazis set out to abolish Christianity and create a weird Germanic cult. I know, scary. Hitler actually persecuted the church and devout Christians, despite the deal the Vatican had reached with him and which they had set out to reach since the 1920s. So much for 'did the Nazis believe in Jesus or not'? I'm sure that those who did go to church and those who did slavery and what have you genuinely believed that they were doing nothing wrong or that it was a divine order or something.

The point is not 'does God exist or not', we'll never be able to prove anything because it's not a scientific fact, and even if it is, it's probably too big for our imperfect and mortal minds to fathom. The point is 'do I believe He is there'and if you don't, then what's the problem? If you do then what's the problem? I'm sure there are lots of articles that debate karma in terms of plane crashes and the Holocaust. In fact there is a whole school of Jewish thought about the inherent philosophical conflict of karma and the Holocaust. It definitely hasn't ruled out the existence of karma purely because the Holocaust happened.That's a simplistic conclusion.

At any rate, I think there's a huge pot who's calling a very clean and shiny kettle black and it's not Clopin.

[YesNo]

At any rate, I think there's a huge pot whose calling a very clean and shiny kettle black and it's not Clopin.

I agree.

[PeterL]

To get back to the initial question:
Would an omnipotent God need to create a hell?

To the best of my knowledge no omnipotent God created Hell. Hell as we generally understand it was created by some theologians around 1500 years ago. they started with the Greek and Roman concept of Hades, as it was expressed by Virgil in the Aeneid and expressed by other sources that I am not as familiar with. Hades was a facility for the recycling of souls into new incarnations, but there was Tartarus in one corner. I don't believe that Tartarus was described in any great detail, but it was where some particular enemies of the Ancient Greek Gods were put. It was implied that hose who went to Tartarus were punished, but some of those who went there were not in line for any punishment; they simply had to be kept out of the way.

Then there is the mater of which God we are discussing. DyeusPater is truly infinite and omnipotent, but the others are not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartarus

[Pike Bishop]

I looked at your post as well, YesNo, and your coming on a thread just to make derogatory comments is also trolling like Clopin. He came on this thread only to make a derogatory comment without contributing to the thread at all. That's trolling. If you can actually show one of my posts that ever did that, please do. If you can't, you've just trolled, yourself...;)

[Pike Bishop]

Then there is the mater of which God we are discussing. DyeusPater is truly infinite and omnipotent, but the others are not. I'd say we've been discussing a theoretical benevolent, omniscient, and infinite God...as most commonly represented by Yahweh. Other non-omnipotent gods are just members of a pantheon.

[YesNo]

To get back to the initial question:

To the best of my knowledge no omnipotent God created Hell. Hell as we generally understand it was created by some theologians around 1500 years ago. they started with the Greek and Roman concept of Hades, as it was expressed by Virgil in the Aeneid and expressed by other sources that I am not as familiar with. Hades was a facility for the recycling of souls into new incarnations, but there was Tartarus in one corner. I don't believe that Tartarus was described in any great detail, but it was where some particular enemies of the Ancient Greek Gods were put. It was implied that hose who went to Tartarus were punished, but some of those who went there were not in line for any punishment; they simply had to be kept out of the way.

Then there is the mater of which God we are discussing. DyeusPater is truly infinite and omnipotent, but the others are not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartarus

I suspect there are also Zoroastrian sources for hell. I like the idea of Hades being a recycling facility and Tartarus fulfilling the need for a place to keep the bad guys out of the way.

[Gnostic Bishop]

You have no more proof of your apotheosis than literal Christians do of the proof of God. So, your expecting people to believe it is as irrational as the beliefs of those you judge and criticize. And if you claim to be a Christian, you are as immoral as those whom you--again--judge and criticize. If you want to prove your apotheosis wasn't just a hallucination however, please feel free to do so.

Regards
PB

Apotheosis does not provide proof except to the one suffering it.

That is why I offer it as an anecdotal rendering and did not ask anyone for belief.

I do not call myself Christian. I call myself a Gnostic Christian. If you know your history, you will know that my ancient predecessors were decimated by Christians and there is no love between us.

That is also why I focus on morals as their poor ones are what helped them usher in the Dark Ages and Inquisition.

Here is a bit of history and then a way of thinking that I push.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02ciandvg&feature=BFa&list=PLCBF574D

The thinking shown below is the Gnostic Christian’s goal as taught by Jesus but know that any belief can be internalized to activate your higher mind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbesfXXw&feature=player_embedded

This method and mind set is how you become I am and brethren to Jesus, in the esoteric sense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdSVl_HOo8Y

When you can name your God, I am, and mean yourself, you will begin to know the only God you will ever find. Becoming a God is to become more fully human and a brethren to Jesus.

Regards
DL

[kiki1982]

uhm, benevolent, the Jewish God? Particularly the old Jewish Yahweh was clearly a vengeful one. It is exactly that that was done away with in the Gospel and God transitioned towards a more benevolent God of love who wasn't going to punish anyone for anything, provided that they show genuine remorse.

As to the creation of Hell, PeterL, I suppose theologians around 1500 created Hell out of exegesis of the bible and other texts. From that point of view, probably people already believed in a kind of Hell before they wrote the bible, as you explained about the Romans and Greeks. And even if they didn't believe it, but there was religious 'evidence' for something like Satan in the bible (in Genesis), there was an inherent problem with its existence, because who created it? God created everything, so evil too then? Apparently Judiasm already had that belief of the fallen angels (which it later rejected).
It's very interesting, I'll have to read on tomorrow.

[Gnostic Bishop]

As to your responses to my posts:

1. You did say a perfect world would be one where everyone would meet perfect ends. So, if God guaranteed that, then we wouldn't have to work for it. So, you did say a perfect world would be one where we wouldn't have to work...nobody put words in your mouth but you.

I said best possible end. You put in the idea that work was not a part of that best end.


2. You say Aquinas was wrong, but you can't prove him wrong. I never said Aquinas could be proven right; that's a strawman on your part. I said he made a compelling argument, and like other compelling theories without clear evidence, it still had logic to it. You however can't prove your apotheosis at all.

Correct. But to me it is fact and not argument or an unproven theory.


3. The argument we are having is whether the theory of God's existence is legitimate. So, similar theories that can't be proven but are still accepted or believed in are absolutely relevant. So, the fact we--and perhaps you--believe in Love, String Theory, and Black Holes without physical evidence of them does show belief in God without evidence can be legitimate.

Regards,
PB

Believe is not what I would use for unproven theories.

I do not believe in string theory any more than I believe in the brane theory.

The math works in both theories and both cannot be right.

Physics have way too many theories on the go at present.

But we stray.

I suggest that the lack of evidence after all of these years of seeking and not finding shows that the bible God does not exist as any God who wanted to be relevant to mankind would show up.

Regards
DL

[Pike Bishop]

Apotheosis does not provide proof except to the one suffering it. That is why I offer it as an anecdotal rendering and did not ask anyone for belief.

I do not call myself Christian. I call myself a Gnostic Christian. If you know your history, you will know that my ancient predecessors were decimated by Christians and there is no love between us.

When you can name your God, I am, and mean yourself, you will begin to know the only God you will ever find. Becoming a God is to become more fully human and a brethren to Jesus.


If you want someone else to believe your apotheosis, you do need to prove it happened...you haven't done so, so far. So, I hope you don't get offended I don't believe God talked to you. There are a lot of people locked up right now who claim the same thing; I don't believe them either. And I am well aware of the history of Gnostics; I wrote part of my dissertation on it. One thing you definitely have in common with your fellow Christians is you each believe in things you can't prove; so you're no better than they.

And, I'm not going to lie, your last line honestly spooked me. Are you just trolling?...because it would be re-assuring to me if you were.

Regards
PB

[YesNo]

Thirdly, regarding the Jews in the Holocaust or the 250 airplane crash victims, it's not about "not deserving" how we die. It's about what we deserve in eternity. Persecution and suffering will be replaced with rewards in our eternal life. Compared to our time in eternity, our time here on earth is but a speck. While we are here on earth, it's about how faithful we remain to God despite our persecution and suffering. Not everyone is getting what they deserve on earth but everyone will get what they deserve in eternity.


That makes sense.

Those who would disagree probably come from a position that there isn't any eternity and so they feel they need to get their reward now or never.

However, our universe had a beginning. It contains creatures who are conscious. The space-time universe is constrained by the speed of light and yet non-local quantum influences are detectable. As I see it, if there were no eternity that also contained conscious reality, then our universe would need to be eternal and unconscious which it isn't.

[Gnostic Bishop]

According to common Christian theology, Hell was created because Satan, who was an angel, rebelled against God and God cast him and his friends into hell. Where else did He have to put them? He couldn't keep them in Heaven now, could He?

So the duality between Heaven and Hell was created because Satan tempts people, whom God has given free will to choose what they want. So essentially God created evil as well as good, because He created Satan who turned out to be a selfish nasty piece of work. Of course He didn't have to give man free will, but then He thought that was a good idea. Until Eve made a bad job of it and decided to believe the serpent instead of follow God's counsel. You find that duality between good and evil pretty much everywhere.

Personally I don't see what the discussion is about really. Hell does not necessarily exist. Pope John Paul II said it 'was a place', whereas Benedict XVI toned that down to a state and this one, I'm not sure; He would maybe be inclined to say it didn't exist at all for some people. Personally I don't believe in it as a place, as this Christian God is a God of love, so why does He need Hell? Maybe to punish the really really bad? Worse than the murderer, because he can be forgiven. When it suits me, I'd say it's a state of mind,even in life, but personally I don't think any person is beyond forgiveness by an infinitely good and wise being.

Anyway, who decided Jesus was punished for anything by His Father? a) Jesus was God and the Son and part of the holy trinity, so God cannot punish Himself because He's perfect and b) it was always clear that Jesus' crucifixion wasn't a punishment. What would it have been a punishment for? His sins, which He didn't have? He did not even have the birth sin which we absolve babies from when we baptise them, because Jesus wasn't made by sex, but just created in His mother's womb by the Holy Ghost. Or so is the axiom the Church wishes us to believe. I have difficulties with that, but anyway, Jesus can't have been punished because He was perfect. Jesus was a sacrifice to wipe away the sins of humanity. Or that's what's taught.

The Nazis set out to abolish Christianity and create a weird Germanic cult. I know, scary. Hitler actually persecuted the church and devout Christians, despite the deal the Vatican had reached with him and which they had set out to reach since the 1920s. So much for 'did the Nazis believe in Jesus or not'? I'm sure that those who did go to church and those who did slavery and what have you genuinely believed that they were doing nothing wrong or that it was a divine order or something.

The point is not 'does God exist or not', we'll never be able to prove anything because it's not a scientific fact, and even if it is, it's probably too big for our imperfect and mortal minds to fathom. The point is 'do I believe He is there'and if you don't, then what's the problem? If you do then what's the problem? I'm sure there are lots of articles that debate karma in terms of plane crashes and the Holocaust. In fact there is a whole school of Jewish thought about the inherent philosophical conflict of karma and the Holocaust. It definitely hasn't ruled out the existence of karma purely because the Holocaust happened.That's a simplistic conclusion.

At any rate, I think there's a huge pot who's calling a very clean and shiny kettle black and it's not Clopin.

The problem is that fools who believe in the bible God as literal do evil in his name.

For the evils of religion to grow, read any scripture literally.

Any and all harmless beliefs are allowed by Gnostic Christians. We know that any myth can be internalized for good results and as esoteric ecumenists, we enjoy knowledge of all the myths that man has created about Gods.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02ciandvg&feature=BFa&list=PLCBF574D

When there is a victim is when that view changes. Then you see why Christianity annihilated Gnostic Christianity. We do not let the evils of forced literalism go unopposed. To a tyrant like Constantine, we were poison. One of his first commands to his new Church was to kill off the free thinkers and of course, his new tool, his Church, did as bid. It was quite a ride for free thought for the next 1,000 years.

How can a Gnostic Christian, --- and any other free thinking moral person, --- not judge other's morals when seeing someone hurt other because of the same Church's teachings today?

Can you ignore such things if you have decent morals? Impossible. Especially with Islam pulling the same murderous, freedom stifling ****.

We must discriminate and judge constantly. Every law is a compulsion on all of us to judge.

It is my view that all right wing literalists and fundamentals hurt all of us who are moral religionists, --- as well as those who do not believe. Literalists hurt their parent religions --- and everyone else, be he a believer or not. Literalists and the right wing of religions make us all into laughing stocks. Their God of talking animals, genocidal floods and retribution has got to go. So must beliefs in fantasy, miracles and magic. These are all evil.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2zhlDbMfDg

They also do much harm to their own fellow adherents.

African witches and Jesus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlRG9gXriVI

Jesus Camp 1of 3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LACyLTsH4ac

Death to Gays.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyuKLyGUHNE

For evil to grow my friend, all good people need do is nothing. Fight literalism when you can. It is your duty to our fellow man.

Regards
DL

[PeterL]

I suspect there are also Zoroastrian sources for hell. I like the idea of Hades being a recycling facility and Tartarus fulfilling the need for a place to keep the bad guys out of the way.

I believe that you are right, but I don't know the details; although I believe that the Zoroastrian hell was also a recycling facility quite like Hades. That isn't surprising, because both are from the same tradition.

Tartarus doesn't just keep the bad guys out of the way because some good Titans were also sent there just because they are Titans. Almost all of the Titans were sent there.

[Gnostic Bishop]

To get back to the initial question:

To the best of my knowledge no omnipotent God created Hell. Hell as we generally understand it was created by some theologians around 1500 years ago. they started with the Greek and Roman concept of Hades, as it was expressed by Virgil in the Aeneid and expressed by other sources that I am not as familiar with. Hades was a facility for the recycling of souls into new incarnations, but there was Tartarus in one corner. I don't believe that Tartarus was described in any great detail, but it was where some particular enemies of the Ancient Greek Gods were put. It was implied that hose who went to Tartarus were punished, but some of those who went there were not in line for any punishment; they simply had to be kept out of the way.

Then there is the mater of which God we are discussing. DyeusPater is truly infinite and omnipotent, but the others are not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartarus

No argument from me on this.

Regards
DL

[Pike Bishop]

"I said best possible end. You put in the idea that work was not a part of that best end."

Believe is not what I would use for unproven theories.

I do not believe in string theory any more than I believe in the brane theory.

The math works in both theories and both cannot be right.

Physics have way too many theories on the go at present.

But we stray.

I suggest that the lack of evidence after all of these years of seeking and not finding shows that the bible God does not exist as any God who wanted to be relevant to mankind would show up.

Regards
DL

I'm sorry, but your last responses to my responses completely ignored them and repeated your previous erroneous statements. God can't guarantee a perfect end and then expect people to work for that end to achieve it. That makes no sense. I finally realize you truly don't grasp that.

And what you wrote above is just nonsense. You are either actually trolling or you have become so confused you've even lost track of your own argument. So, good luck with your talking to God, and good luck telling people about that without spooking them. I sincerely wish you well.

[PeterL]

As to the creation of Hell, PeterL, I suppose theologians around 1500 created Hell out of exegesis of the bible and other texts. From that point of view, probably people already believed in a kind of Hell before they wrote the bible, as you explained about the Romans and Greeks. And even if they didn't believe it, but there was religious 'evidence' for something like Satan in the bible (in Genesis), there was an inherent problem with its existence, because who created it? God created everything, so evil too then? Apparently Judiasm already had that belief of the fallen angels (which it later rejected).
It's very interesting, I'll have to read on tomorrow.


Shoel was in some slight way like Hell, but the idea as it is generally understood now was derived from the idea of Hades, and it was dreamed up long before 1500, more like a thousand years before that, but the concept was further developed to the point where The Inferno is widely taken as being a reasonable model for Hell. But his concept was lifted almost directly from Virgil in Chapter 6 of the Aeneid, and Virgil didn't make it up either.

The idea of Hell of a place of punishment was quite Christian. There was no punishment inthe Jewish Shoel or the Zoroastrian Hell, and punishment was limited to some of the inmates of Tartarus in the Ancient Greek Hades.

[Gnostic Bishop]

uhm, benevolent, the Jewish God? Particularly the old Jewish Yahweh was clearly a vengeful one. It is exactly that that was done away with in the Gospel and God transitioned towards a more benevolent God of love who wasn't going to punish anyone for anything, provided that they show genuine remorse.

As to the creation of Hell, PeterL, I suppose theologians around 1500 created Hell out of exegesis of the bible and other texts. From that point of view, probably people already believed in a kind of Hell before they wrote the bible, as you explained about the Romans and Greeks. And even if they didn't believe it, but there was religious 'evidence' for something like Satan in the bible (in Genesis), there was an inherent problem with its existence, because who created it? God created everything, so evil too then? Apparently Judiasm already had that belief of the fallen angels (which it later rejected).
It's very interesting, I'll have to read on tomorrow.

The Jews had what some see as a problem because Christianity reversed much of the Jewish morals to the story.

For instance, the fall of Eden that Christians saw, the Jews saw as man's elevation and respected the serpent that Christianity vilified.

Christianity, being misogynistic, also saw Satan as female. Check Michelangelo's depictions for the Vatican and note that Satan is definitely female.

Regards
DL

[YesNo]

When you can name your God, I am, and mean yourself, you will begin to know the only God you will ever find. Becoming a God is to become more fully human and a brethren to Jesus.


I sympathize with this, but there appear to be others out there whose behavior suggests they are as much God as I am and none of us are powerful enough to create the communal reality that I experience when I open my eyes.

Then I suspect there are others out there who don't have bodies, which makes them harder to see, but can influence me as well, such as muses. Now I am getting closer to agents whom one might more realistically label "God". I can see how one can carry that further to a monotheistic God.

[Gnostic Bishop]

If you want someone else to believe your apotheosis, you do need to prove it happened...you haven't done so, so far. So, I hope you don't get offended I don't believe God talked to you. There are a lot of people locked up right now who claim the same thing; I don't believe them either. And I am well aware of the history of Gnostics; I wrote part of my dissertation on it. One thing you definitely have in common with your fellow Christians is you each believe in things you can't prove; so you're no better than they.

And, I'm not going to lie, your last line honestly spooked me. Are you just trolling?...because it would be re-assuring to me if you were.

Regards
PB

My apotheosis was not to the bible God or any other creator God. They are all myths.

What I found was more down to earth.

https://vimeo.com/26318064

Nothing I believe requires the suspension of my critical thinking.

If you cannot believe what this science is showing and which I believe to be real, then nothing I can say will likely touch your curiosity.

As to my view of Jesus. It is not the common one either. mine is to the more Eastern Jesus than the Rome created pacifist looser.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Bishop]

I'm sorry, but your last responses to my responses completely ignored them and repeated your previous erroneous statements. God can't guarantee a perfect end and then expect people to work for that end to achieve it. That makes no sense. I finally realize you truly don't grasp that.

And what you wrote above is just nonsense. You are either actually trolling or you have become so confused you've even lost track of your own argument. So, good luck with your talking to God, and good luck telling people about that without spooking them. I sincerely wish you well.

There is confusion, yes. Work I took to be work as in a job and not work as in you need do nothing to gain the best possible end.

I did explain that your idea of God and mine are not the same.

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Bishop]

I sympathize with this, but there appear to be others out there whose behavior suggests they are as much God as I am and none of us are powerful enough to create the communal reality that I experience when I open my eyes.

Correct. Remember that this is a Jewish myth we are discussing and they did not think the way Christians do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Father_complex

Jews were never really monotheistic and just used that concept to create their own Holy Hierarchy.

You should know that in the Jewish tradition, the Rabbi could overrule God's written word.

The Jewish tradition was one that is more about Jews striving both for and against God.



Then I suspect there are others out there who don't have bodies, which makes them harder to see, but can influence me as well, such as muses.

I have no need for supernatural entities and if any exist they should be destroyed.

Trust nothing you cannot control.


Now I am getting closer to agents whom one might more realistically label "God". I can see how one can carry that further to a monotheistic God.

For mankind, a monotheistic head to a Divine Council is good but to actually believe in a monotheistic regime is folly.

None of us can know all sciences and knowledge and must all depend on others.

Regards
DL

[papayahed]

This thread is now closed.