I'm Iraq

[Mohammad Ahmad]

I'm Iraq
Here I'm ready
Here I'm in the battle
Here I'm wherever it be.
No surrender, no submission
We are one nation
We are ready to those who threaten
Our desire is above our eyes
In what the destiny could end
how much the earth could extend
We are as a horse to its saddle
We are as a belt to cradle
We are the wind when it comes gently
We are the rose has been steady
Neither windy storm nor savagery
But sometimes it runs without exception
No rule will be inherited at satisfaction
No hill will remain unless it will be flattened
And no creature unless it will be blatted
Hi, to those yearningly flagged the honour
Whether he is Ali or Omar
Yes, we have the right to fight
All those who threaten as a vermiculate blight

[HCabret]

I'm Iraq
Here I'm ready
Here I'm in the battle
Here I'm wherever it be.
No surrender, no submission
We are one nation
We are ready to those who threaten
Our desire is above our eyes
In what the destiny could end
how much the earth could extend
We are as a horse to its saddle
We are as a belt to cradle
We are the wind when it comes gently
We are the rose has been steady
Neither windy storm nor savagery
But sometimes it runs without exception
No rule will be inherited at satisfaction
No hill will remain unless it will be flattened
And no creature unless it will be blatted
Hi, to those yearningly flagged the honour
Whether he is Ali or Omar
Yes, we have the right to fight
All those who threaten as a vermiculate blight
Who is the enemy of Iraq? ISIS? The Americans? The Kurds? The Saudis? The Iranians? Israel? OPEC? Who are the real oppressors in Iraq? Is a one state solution viable?

[Mohammad Ahmad]

Who is the enemy of Iraq? ISIS? The Americans? The Kurds? The Saudis? The Iranians? Israel? OPEC? Who are the real oppressors in Iraq? Is a one state solution viable?

Firstly, for what is this question?
No country in the world has 100% percentage of pure good relations or hasn't any enmity.
Kurdish is one of the main citizens of Iraq I myself have Kurdish neighbors and speak Kurdish language.
Terrorists and the terrorism is the well-defined enemy to all peoples in the world; but why some of the advanced and developed countries helped it and stand closely hand by hand with it or why they declared overtly that they will be going to dry the sources of terrorism but nothing clearly they do?
It is political interests, dear friend, it is ordinary going so, and no one will ask about the poor one how he had been killed or removed.
Life is as film alike and which one is the hero is which one who had dollars.

[HCabret]

Firstly, for what is this question?
No country in the world has 100% percentage of pure good relations or hasn't any enmity.
Kurdish is one of the main citizens of Iraq I myself have Kurdish neighbors and speak Kurdish language.
Terrorists and the terrorism is the well-defined enemy to all peoples in the world; but why some of the advanced and developed countries helped it and stand closely hand by hand with it or why they declared overtly that they will be going to dry the sources of terrorism but nothing clearly they do?
It is political interests, dear friend, it is ordinary going so, and no one will ask about the poor one how he had been killed or removed.
Life is as film alike and which one is the hero is which one who had dollars.do you think the Kurds deserve their own country? Or should they be given the option to become independent? It's no different than Scotland or Catalunya or Venice in Europe. It's not about money or taxes or jobs, it's about freedom!

[Mohammad Ahmad]

do you think the Kurds deserve their own country? Or should they be given the option to become independent? It's no different than Scotland or Catalunya or Venice in Europe. It's not about money or taxes or jobs, it's about freedom!

Again for what is the question? what's your aim to know beyond of that? Kurdish now are in an independent situation, they have their own military, their own government followed or not followed the central government of Baghdad the matter is as they want, but I shall ask one question thinking that they are your friends:
To which extent Kurdish can help Iraq in its problems?
2- about deserve or not deserve I think not!
3- Which freedom you speak about? We are not in Europe, we are still suffering from terrorism.

[HCabret]

Again for what is the question? what's your aim to know beyond of that? Kurdish now are in an independent situation, they have their own military, their own government followed or not followed the central government of Baghdad the matter is as they want, but I shall ask one question thinking that they are your friends:
For how much Kurdish can help Iraq in its problems?i think a lot of the Kurds want nothing to with Iraq in anyway shape or form. Or Turkey. Or Iran. The Kurds want Baghdad to recognize them as a sovereign entity forever separate from Iraq. I'm in favor of the balkinization of sovereignty everywhere. Consolidated empires simply do not work.

[Ragnar711]

I must have stumbled upon the wrong website. I was under the impression that this one was dedicated to the discussion of literature, not politics. Hey I have an idea, find a site that lends itself to such topics or tell us your favorite book or author. Just a thought :)

[HCabret]

I must have stumbled upon the wrong website. I was under the impression that this one was dedicated to the discussion of literature, not politics. Hey I have an idea, find a site that lends itself to such topics or tell us your favorite book or author. Just a thought :)this site is devoted to ideals of the freedom of speech in any and all written forms. If a poem addresses a political topic, then it likely that any critique of said poem would include a discussion of said political themes. Literature is supposed to encourage thought and dialogue. By your estimation the poem in the OP should be out of bounds as it is political in nature. No topic is off limits on a literature site. Only political sites ban users for expressing unpopular opinions.

[Mohammad Ahmad]

I must have stumbled upon the wrong website. I was under the impression that this one was dedicated to the discussion of literature, not politics. Hey I have an idea, find a site that lends itself to such topics or tell us your favorite book or author. Just a thought :)

thank you dear Marshal, I agree with you

[Frédéric Moreau]

do you think the Kurds deserve their own country? Or should they be given the option to become independent? It's no different than Scotland or Catalunya or Venice in Europe. It's not about money or taxes or jobs, it's about freedom!

Cataluña is not a nation, nor its history or situation may be compared to those of Scotland or the Kurds. Cataluña was never an independent kingdom---being part of the Crown of Aragón.

[Frédéric Moreau]

Unless you define being independent like being under French rule or succumbing to the haughty madness of tragically-fated poor Companys.

[Mohammad Ahmad]

i think a lot of the Kurds want nothing to with Iraq in anyway shape or form. Or Turkey. Or Iran. The Kurds want Baghdad to recognize them as a sovereign entity forever separate from Iraq. I'm in favor of the balkinization of sovereignty everywhere. Consolidated empires simply do not work.

I guess that you know nothing about what does happen at Iraq now on one hand and what does exactly happen in the world on the other hand.
I find myself critically to ask you a question! don't you read magazines? Don't you hear TV? Don't you have listened to the radio? However, you have asked me many questions but let me tell you about Kurds: Kurds are people like us and their territory Kurdistan is integral part of Iraq but it is safer than any part of the country because there is only one tribe which it is the kurds but lastly it is exposed for severe danger if not America helped them, therefore we are in one boat and every danger can be seen and can be effected on other parts, and it is too early to speak about federations or on other meaning "divisions" we all take heed against division, and in one word Iraq is not a piece of paper to be divided as west desire or as Bydin desire. That's enough to be understood.

[tailor STATELY]

Mean people suck eggs.

Apex

Epical apex
O, Lawrence...
Who dared to test
The mire of ages

12/22/2004

http://www.cliohistory.org/thomas-lawrence/cairo/

Praying for Iraq; one of the cradles of civilization.

Ta ! (short for tarradiddle),
tailor STATELY

[HCabret]

Cataluña is not a nation, nor its history or situation may be compared to those of Scotland or the Kurds. Cataluña was never an independent kingdom---being part of the Crown of Aragón.Catalunya is an entity which is seeking independence from a larger state. Galicia and Basque are in the same boat. Catalunya has it's own language, it's own culture. Just like Scotland and Kurdistan.

[HCabret]

I guess that you know nothing about what does happen at Iraq now on one hand and what does exactly happen in the world on the other hand.
I find myself critically to ask you a question! don't you read magazines? Don't you hear TV? Don't you have listened to the radio? However, you have asked me many questions but let me tell you about Kurds: Kurds are people like us and their territory Kurdistan is integral part of Iraq but it is safer than any part of the country because there is only one tribe which it is the kurds but lastly it is exposed for severe danger if not America helped them, therefore we are in one boat and every danger can be seen and can be effected on other parts, and it is too early to speak about federations or on other meaning "divisions" we all take heed against division, and in one word Iraq is not a piece of paper to be divided as west desire or as Bydin desire. That's enough to be understood.the Kurds have a long history of being oppressed the Iraqi state especially under Ba'ath party rule. Iraq is not a nation state, it is an artificial post-colonial state. Iraq and Syria are 20th colonial inventions. Iraq should seek partition in a similar manner to Sudan or the British Raj. The US, the EU and the government Baghdad should all recognize Kurdistan (at least the Iraqi portion) an sovereign state independent of Syria, ISIS and Iraq and affirm a thing which already exists in fact.

[HCabret]

tell us your favorite book or author. Just a thought :)and nothing else?
My favorite book is Walden and my favorite author is Thoreau. Or is that too "political" for this site?

[Frédéric Moreau]

Catalunya is an entity which is seeking independence from a larger state. Galicia and Basque are in the same boat. Catalunya has it's own language, it's own culture. Just like Scotland and Kurdistan.

Catalonia is not seeking anything because it doesn't own a capacity of seeking; although, sadly, there are still nationalist people who keep on regarding societies as thick pieces of conscience. That conception of societies brought twice an apocalypse to Europe. "This is an attack to Catalonia" is somehow linked to "This is an attack to Germany". How dare you speak on behalf of more than 7 million human beings? You'd rather say that a certain indoctrinated portion of Catalan society is looking forward to independence. Spain is a democratic state. A regional referendum would be an unfair solution because, apart from being illegal, it would deprive 40 million citizens from its due right to vote. The region of Catalonia doesn't belong uniquely to her habitants---just as Castilla or Navarra aren't solely owned by their citizens, but also by Catalans. I mean, you can settle in Seville just as a citizen from Seville can settle in Barcelona. It is also remarkable that Catalonia and Basque Region are over-represented in our national Parliament.

Catalans are not an ethnic group with particular religious or racial differences (I mean serious differences, not a regional language) like Kurds or Scotsmen . Moreover, Scotland was an independent kingdom that joined a union---owning a legitimate right to separate from that union. The ancestry and race of Catalans are strictly Spanish: an enriching mixture of Phoenicians, Celts, Romans, Jews, Visigoths and Arabs.

It is also shameful that you mention Basque region as something different from Spain. Basque nationalism is a dire product of Carlism: an ideology built upon the craziness of a fundamentalist. The Basque flag, known as 'Ikurriña', was designed by Sabino Arana in the late 19th century; Catalan flag was in fact the royal flag of the King of Aragon.

Francesc Cambó wrote:

"En su conjunto, el catalanismo era una cosa mísera cuando, en la primavera de 1893, inicié en él mi actuación".

"As a whole, the sense of differentness in Catalonia was a very little thing when, in the spring of 1893, I started upholding it."

[HCabret]

Catalonia is not seeking anything because it doesn't own a capacity of seeking; although, sadly, there are still nationalist people who keep on regarding societies as thick pieces of conscience. That conception of societies brought twice an apocalypse to Europe. "This is an attack to Catalonia" is somehow linked to "This is an attack to Germany". How dare you speak on behalf of more than 7 million human beings?i am not speaking on anyone's behalf but my own. Polls show that about half of Catalunya would favor complete seperation from Spain.


You'd rather say that a certain indoctrinated portion of Catalan society is looking forward to independence. Spain is a democratic state. A regional referendum would be an unfair solution because, apart from being illegal, it would deprive 40 million citizens from its due right to vote. The region of Catalonia doesn't belong uniquely to her habitants---just as Castilla or Navarra aren't solely owned by their citizens, but also by Catalans. I mean, you can settle in Seville just as a citizen from Seville can settle in Barcelona.should english people living England be able to vote for Scottish independence? Since people from London can settle in Scotland. Unjust laws are meant to be broken. Aiding in escape of a slave was once illegal in the United States.



It is also remarkable that Catalonia and Basque Region are over-represented in our national Parliament.
why should either have any representation in a foreign parliament?



Catalans are not an ethnic group with particular religious or racial differences (I mean serious differences, not a regional language) like Kurds or Scotsmen .ethnicity and race are two different things. There are no racial difference between Austrians and Germans, should they be one state?


Moreover, Scotland was an independent kingdom that joined a union---owning a legitimate right to separate from that union. The ancestry and race of Catalans are strictly Spanish: an enriching mixture of Phoenicians, Celts, Romans, Jews, Visigoths and Arabs. is a state previous independence a requirement for independence? By that estimation Tibet should be independent, while the USA should not be. Iberia doesn't not equal Spain.


It is also shameful that you mention Basque region as something different from Spain. Basque nationalism is a dire product of Carlism, an ideology built upon the craziness of a fundamentalist. The Basque flag, known as 'Ikurriña', was designed by Sabino Arana in the late 19th century; Catalan flag was in fact the royal flag of the King of Aragon. the Basque people would claim something different. The basque language is older than Spanish or Catalan or Occitan or Portugese or French.


Francesc Cambó wrote in 1897:

"En su conjunto, el catalanismo era una cosa mísera cuando, en la primavera de 1893, inicié en él mi actuación".

"As a whole, the sense of differentness in Catalonia was a very little thing when, in the spring of 1893, I started upholding it."fascism nearly killed catalan culture. For many years it was against Spanish law to speak using the catalan language. Catalans have good reason to seek seperation. Nazism was so 80 years ago.

[Frédéric Moreau]

i am not speaking on anyone's behalf but my own. Polls show that about half of Catalunya would favor complete seperation from Spain.

That's not the question. You said that the whole region of Catalonia 'sought' independence, which isn't true.


should english people living England be able to vote for Scottish independence? Since people from London can settle in Scotland. Unjust laws are meant to be broken. Aiding in escape of a slave was once illegal in the United States.

As I said before, you can't compare Catalonia with Scotland. I was trying to explain what the concept of sovereignty means. It is repulsive to compare slavery to holding a referendum. You are not deprived of any right since you may ask for a referendum in the national Parliament.


ethnicity and race are two different things. There are no racial difference between Austrians and Germans, should they be one state?

I know that race and ethnicity are different concepts. I wrote "Catalans are not an ethnic group with particular religious or racial differences (I mean serious differences, not a regional language) like Kurds or Scotsmen." I didn't mistake race for ethnicity, I added one concept to the other.



is a state previous independence a requirement for independence? By that estimation Tibet should be independent, while the USA should not be. Iberia doesn't not equal Spain.

You are misunderstanding my arguments. I meant that Scotland and Catalonia are completely different realities and impossible to compare. You are mixing too different realities. The independence of United States has nothing to do with the situation in Catalonia.



the Basque people would claim something different. The basque language is older than Spanish or Catalan or Occitan or Portugese or French.

The origin of Basque language is deeply discussed. The current Basque is altogether a different language from the original one. Most of current Basque's vocabulary is related to Latin. Many words like 'makila' or 'polita' come from Latin. Actually, Basque had a great influence in the development of Spanish language: we inherited its phonemes and very basic words as 'izquierda' ('left'), which comes from the Basque word 'ezkerra'. Therefore, it is tightly joined to the birth and concept of Spanish nation.


fascism nearly killed catalan culture. For many years it was against Spanish law to speak using the catalan language. Catalans have good reason to seek seperation. Nazism was so 80 years ago.

That's simply false. We had to endure almost forty years of a terrible dictatorship, many people were shot and tortured; but neither Catalan nor Basque languages were prohibited. I have seen books in Basque and Catalan printed in Madrid in the late fifties, with the approval of censorship.

PS: I began to learn English a year ago, so excuse me if I cannot argument as accurately as if writing in Spanish.

[HCabret]

That's not the question. You said that the whole region of Catalonia 'sought' independence, which isn't true.democracy is majority rules. Whatever the majority decides should be official policy in a proper democracy.



As I said before, you can't compare Catalonia with Scotland. I was trying to explain what the concept of sovereignty means. It is repulsive to compare slavery to holding a referendum. You are not deprived of any right since you may ask for a referendum in the national Parliament. catalunya is being held captive by a colonial power. Catalan independence would not nullify the schengen area and would not make Spanish people living in the new country second class citizens as all would remain EU citizens.




I know that race and ethnicity are different concepts. I wrote "Catalans are not an ethnic group with particular religious or racial differences (I mean serious differences, not a regional language) like Kurds or Scotsmen." I didn't mistake race for ethnicity, I added one concept to the other.
catalan is no more a "regional language" than Italian or Ligurian or Dutch.




You are misunderstanding my arguments. I meant that Scotland and Catalonia are completely different realities and impossible to compare. You are mixing too different realities. The independence of United States has nothing to do with the situation in Catalonia. independence is based on self determination. If Catalunya doesn't want to be part of the Spanish empire any longer, then it should not be held captive. Same with Scotland, Kurdistan, and every other state-less nation.





The origin of Basque language is deeply discussed. The current Basque is altogether a different language from the original one. Most of current Basque's vocabulary is related to Latin. Many words like 'makila' or 'polita' come from Latin. Actually, Basque had a great influence in the development of Spanish language: we inherited its phonemes and very basic words as 'izquierda' ('left'), which comes from the Basque word 'ezkerra'. Therefore, it is tightly joined to the birth and concept of Spanish nation.basque is a language isolate. A few loan words doesn't mean Basque is all of a sudden a romantic language. English has many French loan words, but is neither considered a romantic language.



That's simply false. We had to endure almost forty years of a terrible dictatorship, many people were shot and tortured; but neither Catalan nor Basque languages were prohibited. I have seen books in Basque and Catalan printed in Madrid in the late fifties, with the approval of censorship.
Right!! And Fascism was such a great thing! http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_policies_of_Francoist_Spain



PS: I began to learn English a year ago, so excuse me if I cannot argument as accurately as if writing in Spanish.are you learning catalan? Or Gaelic? Or Basque? Or Galician? Or Occitan?

[Mohammad Ahmad]

the Kurds have a long history of being oppressed the Iraqi state especially under Ba'ath party rule. Iraq is not a nation state, it is an artificial post-colonial state. Iraq and Syria are 20th colonial inventions. Iraq should seek partition in a similar manner to Sudan or the British Raj. The US, the EU and the government Baghdad should all recognize Kurdistan (at least the Iraqi portion) an sovereign state independent of Syria, ISIS and Iraq and affirm a thing which already exists in fact.

Are you Kurd?
Please truly tell me if you are Kurd or not.
From which time they were oppressed!
I myself have served in many places of Kurdistan in 1970s, a period when there was no dispensary at Arabic villages and the number of primary schools is too limited while in Kurdistan the government of that time sent us to serve there.
A time when there is no graduated or few graduated numbers and the reason is not beyond they haven’t the chance to study but themselves are undeveloped illiterate people accustomed to live inside caves and the tip of mountains and valleys.
We the prior expedition have taught them many things especially in villages and distant places, the time when they didn't know the lowest prerequisite of healthy- conditions and let me don't mention an example.

2- In the time of Saddam all Kurds are exempt from military services and we the youths in that time have been served for many years especially in the war time with Iran in 1980s.
3- Since that earlier time above I have mentioned, they were called as people of two rights one is from Baghdad and the other is in their original place.
That's the truth and don't blame me if I said that.
Now what do they need?
4- 17% of Iraq budget is for them. What promise do they need more?
5- They have their own military, their own ministries and their own parliament in Kurdistan in addition they share into Baghdad government and have permanent members in Iraqi parliament into each session i.e. they have full representation.
6- They govern themselves autonomy.
7- They have selfish greed in Kirkuk because it has a good source of petrol and if not petrol, they don't ask about it while Kirkuk for a long time is considered an Iraqi city includes people from different sects Arab, Kurds, and Turkmen.
8- Lastly, I think they can't endure to be separated from their mother country "Iraq" and no one shall give them the recognition, moreover I think the answer clearly has been detected.
9- Again what about the Palestinians why does no one ask about them or about their rights and everyday many of them have been killed?
10- For me either I say the truth or keeping silent or I shall choose to move myself away from discussion.

[mal4mac]

Are you Kurd?
Please truly tell me if you are Kurd or not.
From which time they were oppressed!
I myself have served in many places of Kurdistan in 1970s, a period when there was no dispensary at Arabic villages and the number of primary schools is too limited while in Kurdistan the government of that time sent us to serve there.

You might have been kind to the Kurdish people, in a lenient period, but how can you use this argument against the well reported atrocities committed by Sadam?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Anfal_Campaign

This looks like oppression to me!

[Mohammad Ahmad]

If the matter is about Saddam, no one was rescued from his oppression even the very close to his regime and generally every tyrant behavior is the same.
Isn't Bashar, the tyrant of Syria is always so? isn't there anyone alike in our region?
Dear friend the matter of self-determination is a sacred and a honorable case, but now as you see Iraq is in a real danger then I am one of the Iraqis and have the right to share my opinion Kurds need Kirkuk to be for them alone and this is not justice at all because this city since the dawn of history it is a city not belonged to any but it is like any other city of Iraqis cities i.e. like Basra or Mosul and this is the main problem to discuss.
In addition, after occupation of 2003 Kurds have expanded to many areas formerly aren't for them such as the dam of Mosul and the adjacent areas and after the last event of the dam releasing many and many Arabs tribes escaped away from the region coming toward Mosul city. I myself thousands people have seen by my naked eyes and everything going to be worst.
If you don't know the borders of Mosul with its Kurds cities neighbor, I myself have a good experience about the matter and can tell you precisely where is the borders before the occupation of 2003, generally thousand of hectares had been gone to Kurdistan from the Arabic regions that are stretched alongside Kurdistan border even they installed and established for themselves locations for their parties into Arabic cities which are situated at the north part of the country. What do they want more?
yet no one is in the place of objection against all of what they had done and no one yet hate them or exposed for them something has the sense of oppression neither in acting nor in saying so in word we are real brothers.
Yet I want to add that many places which its majority population is from Arab is governed by them such as Zumar district and others and others and none of us has objected or just has said "why that" because we are in satisfaction that we are one nation and there is no difference between the one who is from the Arab nationality and the one who is from the Kurdish nationality, and I see that's enough to put others in satisfaction.

[Mohammad Ahmad]

look to my another poem I mentioned Kurds as a main nationality component and don't forget them:
I wrote it in Arabic then I translated it into English language and many poems yet I have written about the same purpose:


Iraq is unable to be divided

Poem is written and translated by

Mohammad Ahmad

أنتَ العراقُ لبيّكَ لا تنقسم ُ كحلة ُ عين ٍلا تنفكُ أو تنفصِم ْ
لا تنقسم أبدا أنت َ لا تنقسم رغم َ الجراح ِ لا تنقسم ْ
رغم َ مرارة ِ الدهرِ وألوانِها أحاديُ الرقم ِ عالي الهِمم ْ
شمس ٌ ساطعة ٌ بين َ الروابي قاماتُها عالية ٌ بين القممْ
والريح ُ تشدو بصفيرها لكنكَ ساكن ٌ تحذوك الشَّيم ْ
رغم َ المحن ِ ورغم َ أنوفِهم عراق ٌرابط ُ الجأش ِ والقيم ْ
تاريخ ٌ وحضارة ٌ ومجدُ أمة ٍ خُطّتْ محاسِنُهُ بين يراع ٍ وعَلم ْ
سنحاريبُ وآشورُ وكلكامشُ بنو الفرات ِ لم يأتوا من العدم ْ
والرافدان ِ خَصرُك َ الناهي نشيد ٌ وأنغام ٌ منذ ُ القدم ْ
يا عِراقاً يا عينا ً أكابرُها شُدّت ذراعُك من طورِ الرَحَمْ
عينُ الله تحميكَ ورعايتُه من كُلِّ غاشم ٍ غادرٍ أثِم
كمال ُالدُنيا وزخرُفُها حُروفُكَ تَشفي الجراح َ من كلِّ سَقمْ
وللأعادي نيرانُكَ يَشبُّ حريقُها كالبراكين ِ تقذفُ بالحِممْ
نبئتُ أني في وصْلِكَ عاشقٌ فأي ُ مُغْرم ٍ من وجْدِك سَلِمْ!
أنتَ مزارٌ وقبلة ُ عاشق ٍ رِداء ٌ وكِفاءٌ مَقدِسيٌ وحَرم ْ
جمالٌ وثراء ٌ ورخاء ٌ محاسنُ شتى تَوَّشى بالنِعمْ
قِبلة ُ الأنظارِ أمسيتَ شامخا ً طرفُك َ النِدىُّ يَعلوهُ الكرم ْ
مدنٌ وأمصارٌ جَنبَ نَهريكَ كنجوم ٍ فوق روض ٍ تبتَسِم ْ
حُييّت ما حيي الحيَا والندَى وطنا ً زاهيا ً بين الأمم
أهلوك سُنّة ٌ وشِيعة ٌ ما اختلفوا أخوة ٌ صحاح ٌبين دين ٍ ودم
نصارى وأيزيديون وتركمان ٌ باقة ُ وردٍ لا تُجتزءُ ولا تُقتَسَم ْ
كردٌ وأطياف ٌ أُخرُ من وشِي النرجس ِ روضٌ بهي ٌ مُزدَحِمْ
الحسين ُ والعسكرياّن ِ وموسى نعمَ الجدودُ في وثبة ِ الحَزَم
سَبرتَ أغوارَ المجدِ في أصيلها حفِظتَ الوعود َ وخَفَرتَ الذِمم ْ
أنت يا عراق ُ لحن ٌ أزليٌ سليل ُ المجد ِ من حاضرِ النَغَم
أنت عيونُ الماءِ في وشيها وحِليهّا زاخرات ٌ يَشفينَ الألم ْ
أنت طيورُ الهوى ما حلَّ رحيلُها شاديات ٌ لا يعرِفْنَّ الندم ْ

O, Iraq you are stubborn cannot be divided
You seem as if kohl to eye is integrated
In spite of many wounds you had had exposed,
Forever and ever, you shall be undivided
In spite of the bitterness of days and its variant colours
You are lofty, undivided, as if a single number.
Like sun lightens over hillocks proudly
Hillocks have high peaks raised loftily
Even though winds whistle violently,
You resist, this is thy custom of generosity.
Despite of all ordeals and despite of their noses,
You are self-possessed at thy noblest values
History, civilization, and superior glory of nation,
Between pen and flag, its charms indeed were written.
Sennacherib, Ashur, and Gilgamesh are ancient Iraq leaders
Mesopotamians yet have bridges to those precedent battlers
Euphrates and Tigris Rivers is thy succulent waist.
They chanted their melody cheerfully from the past.
O, Iraq the eye on which yet I am proud
Your arm was tightened to the uterus you grew up inside.
Allah may protect thee to be included by his custody.
From each treacherous unjust offends to be far away.
You are the perfect adornment of the world entirely
Your letters cure all wounds from each malady
Against enemies thy fires blaze fiercely
Fire as if volcanoes cast their lavas suddenly.
In thy love, I am accused as a passionate lover.
Which fond into thy love is not surrender?
You are the shrine and the kiss of bewitched adorer.
As garment, as sacred gown, the safety place forever.
Beauty, luxury, and comfortable extending welfare,
Including different charms embroider with grace nature.
The center of attraction you became lofty
Your dewed eyelid is overtopped with generosity
Cities and villages around thy two rivers display
As stars smile over meadows sparkling gently.
Live long as long as rain and dew quench the ground
A country looks splendid between countries around.
Your habitants Sunna and Shiite live on a fellowship.
True brothers at both religion and blood relationship
Christians, Yazidis, and Turkman nearby inhabited
They are as if one bouquet cannot be divided
Kurdish and other sects with jonquil embroider.
Charming gardens contain all type of flowers.
Al-Hussein, Two imams al-Askerian, and Moussa-al- Kathim
The best ancestors' imams when the matter is serious and grim
You Iraq had crossed the unfathomable of glory mission
You had kept the promises and guarded the protection
You are eternal tune perfectly knowing how to dance
Son of glory borrows its pattern from all presented tones.
You are the springs of water adorned from all decorations
Replete with welfare they can heal all sources of inflictions.
You are the lovely birds all times they fly
Don’t regret at all always they chant with joy

[gagan deep]

nice vey nice

[Frédéric Moreau]

democracy is majority rules. Whatever the majority decides should be official policy in a proper democracy.

Again, that's not the question---you are mixing wrongly too many concepts. The debate is about who is sovereign: the whole Spanish nation or the region of Catalonia. The concept of 'democracy' may be subject of many interpretations. Sheer majority rule is as tyrannical and awful as a dictatorship. In the current meaning of democracy, majority rule should be restricted by some fundamental individual rights. If the 90% of a society decide to kill people wearing pink shirts, should majority rule be applied?


catalunya is being held captive by a colonial power. Catalan independence would not nullify the schengen area and would not make Spanish people living in the new country second class citizens as all would remain EU citizens.

The colonial power of Spain ended in 1975, when we left Sahara. It is just the contrary, the region of Catalonia has always been highly protected by national authorities. During the 19th century and part of the 20th, many imported goods were highly taxed in order not to harm Catalan and Basque industries. This protectionism crucially favoured the development of such regions---and the general impoverishment of the rest of Spain. I dare not forecast the future, though what you say is slightly possible---it's funny your wishful-thinking.



catalan is no more a "regional language" than Italian or Ligurian or Dutch.

A regional language is that which is spoken in a particular area of a sovereign state. According to the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages (which considers Catalan one of them) they are defined as:

"a) "regional or minority languages" means languages that are:
i. traditionally used within a given territory of a State by nationals of that State who form a group numerically smaller than the rest of the State's population; and
ii. different from the official language(s) of that State;"


independence is based on self determination. If Catalunya doesn't want to be part of the Spanish empire any longer, then it should not be held captive. Same with Scotland, Kurdistan, and every other state-less nation.

It is not being held captive more than Andalusia, Castilla or any other Spanish region. Again, you cannot compare Scotland or Kurdistan to Catalonia. They are different realities, differing both in their nature and history. Catalonia is not a nation.


basque is a language isolate. A few loan words doesn't mean Basque is all of a sudden a romantic language. English has many French loan words, but is neither considered a romantic language.

I didn't say that Basque was a Romance language---only that most of the current Basque vocabulary is related to Latin---not a few 'loan' words. I paste what I have found opening my Basque dictionary randomly (I highlight those words with a clearly Latin/Spanish origin).

"Errelebu, erremata(tu), erremate, errematxaketa, errematxa(tu), errematxe, erremedia(tu), erremedio, errementaldegi, errementari, errementaritza, errementeria, erremin, erreminta, erremolatxa, erremonte, erremontista, erremusina, erremuskada, errenazentista, Errenazimentu, errenda(tu), errendimendu, errendi(tu), errendizio, errenka, errenkada, errenta, errentagarri, errentagarritasun, errentamendu, errentari, errentatzaile, erreostato, errepara(tu), erreparo, errepasa(tu), errepaso, errepertorio, errepide".

31 words out of 40. A great rate, isn't it? Though I insist that it is not a Romance language, it is undeniable it has been highly influenced by Latin and Spanish, not being an 'isolated language'. Moreover, Basque was almost reinvented during the second half of 20th century. An ad hoc alphabet was created, and very different dialects were joined together in a standard version of the language. It is important to note that many dialects differ much from this standard version---for instance, the names of the days of the week aren't those of the standard version in the dialect of Biscay .



Right!! And Fascism was such a great thing! http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langu...rancoist_Spain

I would thank you not to call me a fascist. Several members of my family were tortured by Franco's regime. What I tried to mean is exposed in the link you posted:

"The situation evolved from the harshest years of the immediate afterwar (especially the 1940s, also the 1950s) to the relative tolerance of the last years (late 1960s and early 1970s".

[Mohammad Ahmad]

Again I would like to remind you and others who don't know the fact and just hear from here or there an arbitrary news, the Victims of Iraq nations which are caused by terrorism or on the hands of American after the Bush's occupation to Iraq in 2003 are thousand thousand times more than the victims of Al-Anfal Campaign which it was leaded by Saddam on Kurdistan region, the Halabcha region when he used the chemical gases and 5000 person was killed on the operation, however, in that time we were in war with the Persian and that above-mentioned region helped the Iranian and many of those Iranian entered the certain place as the intelligence transmitted the news.
Before several days only in one region the Spikier military base 1700 students of Air Force college were killed there and no day will end unless dozen of victims either by car bombing or explosion or by the militia hand have been murdered or injured but Kurdistan is clearly saved from this violence

[HCabret]

Are you Kurd?
Please truly tell me if you are Kurd or not.that is none of your business. As I have stated before: I am a self-hating satanist. That is it. ;)

From which time they were oppressed!really? Do you live in a hole? Or are you a Ba'ath loyalist?


I myself have served in many places of Kurdistan in 1970s, a period when there was no dispensary at Arabic villages and the number of primary schools is too limited while in Kurdistan the government of that time sent us to serve there.
A time when there is no graduated or few graduated numbers and the reason is not beyond they haven’t the chance to study but themselves are undeveloped illiterate people accustomed to live inside caves and the tip of mountains and valleys.
We the prior expedition have taught them many things especially in villages and distant places, the time when they didn't know the lowest prerequisite of healthy- conditions and let me don't mention an example.
so is it the duty of Arab Iraqis to educate the barbarians?


2- In the time of Saddam all Kurds are exempt from military services and we the youths in that time have been served for many years especially in the war time with Iran in 1980s.why would the Kurds fight fight for a foreign country in an unjust war? Violence is cowardly.


3- Since that earlier time above I have mentioned, they were called as people of two rights one is from Baghdad and the other is in their original place.
That's the truth and don't blame me if I said that.
Now what do they need?a country of their own.



4- 17% of Iraq budget is for them. What promise do they need more?freedom. This isn't about money.


5- They have their own military, their own ministries and their own parliament in Kurdistan in addition they share into Baghdad government and have permanent members in Iraqi parliament into each session i.e. they have full representation. yet it isn't legal for them to have their own policies concerning their land without interference by Iraq.


6- They govern themselves autonomy.yet Iraq refuses to implement article 140 of the constitution.



7- They have selfish greed in Kirkuk because it has a good source of petrol and if not petrol, they don't ask about it while Kirkuk for a long time is considered an Iraqi city includes people from different sects Arab, Kurds, and Turkmen.it's Kurdish oil! Not Iraqi oil! Iraq has no more right to it than they have to Jordanian oil or Saudi oil.



8- Lastly, I think they can't endure to be separated from their mother country "Iraq" and no one shall give them the recognition, moreover I think the answer clearly has been detected.the US is likely to recognize independence in the near future, regardless of what Iraq says. The Iraqi government is an ally of Bashir in Syria and is hardly capable of governing a federal state in the region. The Iraqi government has lost what little legitimacy it had when ISIS invaded.



9- Again what about the Palestinians why does no one ask about them or about their rights and everyday many of them have been killed?they deserve a state too! Why are they different than the Kurds!?!?! Come on!


10- For me either I say the truth or keeping silent or I shall choose to move myself away from discussion.me too brotha. I only speak truth. I don't speak neo-ba'athist drivel and hope something sticks.

[HCabret]

If the matter is about Saddam, no one was rescued from his oppression even the very close to his regime and generally every tyrant behavior is the same.that's not an argument against independence. Saddam is a big reason the Kurds want independence.



Isn't Bashar, the tyrant of Syria is always so? isn't there anyone alike in our region? Assad is an ally of the current Iraqi government. They are one in the same.



Dear friend the matter of self-determination is a sacred and a honorable case, but now as you see Iraq is in a real danger then I am one of the Iraqis and have the right to share my opinion Kurds need Kirkuk to be for them alone and this is not justice at all because this city since the dawn of history it is a city not belonged to any but it is like any other city of Iraqis cities i.e. like Basra or Mosul and this is the main problem to discuss.the Iraqi government denied the people of Kirkuk their referendum in 2007. Let the people of Kirkuk decide!



In addition, after occupation of 2003 Kurds have expanded to many areas formerly aren't for them such as the dam of Mosul and the adjacent areas and after the last event of the dam releasing many and many Arabs tribes escaped away from the region coming toward Mosul city. I myself thousands people have seen by my naked eyes and everything going to be worst.
If you don't know the borders of Mosul with its Kurds cities neighbor, I myself have a good experience about the matter and can tell you precisely where is the borders before the occupation of 2003, generally thousand of hectares had been gone to Kurdistan from the Arabic regions that are stretched alongside Kurdistan border even they installed and established for themselves locations for their parties into Arabic cities which are situated at the north part of the country. What do they want more?
yet no one is in the place of objection against all of what they had done and no one yet hate them or exposed for them something has the sense of oppression neither in acting nor in saying so in word we are real brothers.if it's on the internet it must be true. Anecdotes are not evidence.


Yet I want to add that many places which its majority population is from Arab is governed by them such as Zumar district and others and others and none of us has objected or just has said "why that" because we are in satisfaction that we are one nation and there is no difference between the one who is from the Arab nationality and the one who is from the Kurdish nationality, and I see that's enough to put others in satisfaction.Iraqi colonialism will die!

[HCabret]

Again I would like to remind you and others who don't know the fact and just hear from here or there an arbitrary news, the Victims of Iraq nations which are caused by terrorism or on the hands of American after the Bush's occupation to Iraq in 2003 are thousand thousand times more than the victims of Al-Anfal Campaign which it was leaded by Saddam on Kurdistan region, the Halabcha region when he used the chemical gases and 5000 person was killed on the operation, however, in that time we were in war with the Persian and that above-mentioned region helped the Iranian and many of those Iranian entered the certain place as the intelligence transmitted the news.
Before several days only in one region the Spikier military base 1700 students of Air Force college were killed there and no day will end unless dozen of victims either by car bombing or explosion or by the militia hand have been murdered or injured but Kurdistan is clearly saved from this violenceyou state that the Kurds were oppressed by Saddam, then you ***** that they refused to aid him in war. The Kurds were more than justified in siding with Iran against Saddam. The Iraqi military was a force of evil and destruction under saddam. It is the duty of every freedom loving person to resist such evil.

[Mohammad Ahmad]

that is none of your business. As I have stated before: I am a self-hating satanist. That is it. ;)
really? Do you live in a hole? Or are you a Ba'ath loyalist?

so is it the duty of Arab Iraqis to educate the barbarians?

why would the Kurds fight fight for a foreign country in an unjust war? Violence is cowardly.

a country of their own.


freedom. This isn't about money.

yet it isn't legal for them to have their own policies concerning their land without interference by Iraq.

yet Iraq refuses to implement article 140 of the constitution.


it's Kurdish oil! Not Iraqi oil! Iraq has no more right to it than they have to Jordanian oil or Saudi oil.


the US is likely to recognize independence in the near future, regardless of what Iraq says. The Iraqi government is an ally of Bashir in Syria and is hardly capable of governing a federal state in the region. The Iraqi government has lost what little legitimacy it had when ISIS invaded.


they deserve a state too! Why are they different than the Kurds!?!?! Come on!

me too brotha. I only speak truth. I don't speak neo-ba'athist drivel and hope something sticks.
I am very sad to the all time I spent with you; you are the worst one yet I have met with in conversation.
Really you are nuts! You yourself came and knocked my door and I warned you politely with a private message, then all my answers are acceptable containing nothing is disapproval or mistake even I produced my last poem reminding you that I generously have mentioned your nationality on it.
Moreover, still we consider Kurds as brothers, still we giving them our stretched hand in generosity, but alas, one like you the conversation with him is futile because he has not the low limit of conversation behavior. I am sure from the first second that the conversation will not end peacefully
Stop any conversation with me and I warned you from now not to come to my topic putting provocative question and I shall tell the administration about any abuse or violation, I am in this forum about one year but I didn't commit any mistake against others or doing annoyance to others.
And that's some of your comments the shameful comments:

really? Do you live in a hole? Or are you a Ba'ath loyalist?
Am I live in a hole? Now I am master in an educational institution, No I am not Ba'ath!
so is it the duty of Arab Iraqis to educate the barbarians?

It is enough that we teach you the Islam!
why would the Kurds fight fight for a foreign country in an unjust war? Violence is cowardly..
Because they are Iraqi people but alas they are nation only in the ID! We know there is no benefit from each one his tongue isn’t Arabic, Look! The Iraqi army helped your army to return the Dam of Mosul.
freedom. This isn't about money.
For what then?
yet Iraq refuses to implement article 140 of the constitution.
It should be not seen the light because its time is expired!
it's Kurdish oil! Not Iraqi oil! Iraq has no more right to it than they have to Jordanian oil or Saudi oil.
You shall see the Blood then instead of petrol!!
Kirkuk is not for Kurd and not for Arab alone it is for all people of Iraq.

[HCabret]

I am very sad to the all time I spent with you; you are the worst one yet I have met with in conversation.
Really you are nuts! You yourself came and knocked my door and I warned you politely with a private message, then all my answers are acceptable containing nothing is disapproval or mistake even I produced my last poem reminding you that I generously have mentioned your nationality on it.
Moreover, still we consider Kurds as brothers, still we giving them our stretched hand in generosity, but alas, one like you the conversation with him is futile because he has not the low limit of conversation behavior. I am sure from the first second that the conversation will not end peacefully
Stop any conversation with me and I warned you from now not to come to my topic putting provocative question and I shall tell the administration about any abuse or violation, I am in this forum about one year but I didn't commit any mistake against others or doing annoyance to others.there is no rule against being annoying on this forum. I have free speech and I will respond to whatever threads I choose. BTW, I find your pro-colonialist positions to very annoying. Also, I reported this post as it is the second time I have "warned"/threatened by you. We are all allowed to be here.


And that's some of your comments the shameful comments:shame is relative.



It is enough that we teach you the Islam!you called the Kurds illiterate, not irreligious. Islam doesn't equal literacy.



Because they are Iraqi people but alas they are nation only in the ID! We know there is no benefit from each one his tongue isn’t Arabic, Look! The Iraqi army helped your army to return the Dam of Mosul.by that notion, the German Jews should have fought for Hitler because they were Germans.



For what then? FREEDOM! Gandhi didn't seek an independent India to pad his bank account.


It should be not seen the light because its time is expired!time does not nullify the original violation.


You shall see the Blood then instead of petrol!!
Kirkuk is not for Kurd and not for Arab alone it is for all people of Iraq.it that what you do when you don't get something you want? It sounds like Iraq is a little butt
hurt.

[Mohammad Ahmad]

you state that the Kurds were oppressed by Saddam, then you ***** that they refused to aid him in war. The Kurds were more than justified in siding with Iran against Saddam. The Iraqi military was a force of evil and destruction under saddam. It is the duty of every freedom loving person to resist such evil.
Then what is my answer, I challenge you if I brought something is wrong as in other post you said " if it is written in internet" about the matter of Kirkuk city I myself Internet then in ancient history where is Internet? You can read the history, the books of large volumes, since I born and since my father born we know that Kirkuk is a city like other cities of Iraq, and since the first republic and since monarchical regime no one has said or mentioned that kirkuk is for Kurd.
Now you have army and tanks and weapons and finding support from abroad you become brave tying to take the opportunity of Iraq after occupation and threatening of terrorists, continue on your suborning and the terrorists no longer will reach your territory Kurdistan, it is the bad opportunism if you do that and history will nor forgive for you.
I just make myself as a brother and answer your provocative questions and the answer isn't from my pocket. I have many close-friends in a midst of Kurd and many neighbors, then I myself learning your language when I served in the distant areas of Kurdistan as a medical assist when the people there didn't know how to brush their teeth.
Really you annoyed me and you who comes on his feet to my blog and my post and many times I asked you for what your question, if you are too wise you may listen and satisfy and don't say to your fellow in conversation " really you live in a hole!" .
That is enough for me to receive this insult against nothing I commit, don't repeat this mistake again then the answer should clear of any diplomatic speech.

[Mohammad Ahmad]

there is no rule against being annoying on this forum. I have free speech and I will respond to whatever threads I choose. BTW, I find your pro-colonialist positions to very annoying. Also, I reported this post as it is the second time I have "warned"/threatened by you. We are all allowed to be here.

shame is relative.


you called the Kurds illiterate, not irreligious. Islam doesn't equal literacy.


by that notion, the German Jews should have fought for Hitler because they were Germans.


FREEDOM! Gandhi didn't seek an independent India to pad his bank account.

time does not nullify the original violation.

it that what you do when you don't get something you want? It sounds like Iraq is a little butt
hurt.

Again, you shall stay reply and my ear is deaf to hear you, be polite please, you come by your feet and there is saying in Arabic" who knocks the door may politely listen to the answer." yes I said illiterate people but not now, I mentioned the period which it is 1970s when I went there to work as a medical assistance for more than five years and there I was obliged to learn your language and I apologized to mention an example. do you want me now to mention more than one example?
I haven't any enmity against anyone.
You yourself who seek the troubles it is obvious, go to your Kurdistan and do as you want, Iraq isn't for me alone, but in conversation you must stick on the rule of conversation , for what you said to me that i lived in a hole! from now my ear is deaf to hear you, search the internet and you can find my name is the friend of all societies, but alas what to say is useless.
Another friend who I forget his name, said for you and advised you in the beginning that this forum is devoted to literature, but you don't hear him and still ask a question after question, I am not your trouble go anywhere and don't ask at my door, I came here only for literature purpose and when I post any piece of poetry i dedicated for enthusiasm or for any purpose, the matter is of my personality.

[Frédéric Moreau]

Again, you shall stay reply and my ear is deaf to hear you, be polite please, you come by your feet and there is saying in Arabic" who knocks the door may politely listen to the answer."

You shouldn't waste your time with him, it's like talking to a wall. The situation in Irak is too complex as to be poorly simplified in a couple of idealistic diatribes.

[HCabret]

Again, you shall stay reply and my ear is deaf to hear you, be polite please, you come by your feet and there is saying in Arabic" who knocks the door may politely listen to the answer." yes I said illiterate people but not now, I mentioned the period it is 1970s when I went there to work as a medical assistance for more than five years and there I was obliged to learn your language, I haven't any enmity against anyone.
You yourself who seek the troubles it is obvious, go to your Kurdistan and do as you want, Iraq isn't for me alone, but in conversation you must stick on the rule of conversation , for what you said to me that i lived in a hole! from now my ear is deaf to hear you, search the internet and you can find my name is the friend of all societies, but alas what to say is useless.

This reminds me of an old Klingon proverb: "It must say something that god gave us mouths that close and ears that don't."

[HCabret]

You shouldn't waste your time with him, it's like talking to a wall. The situation in Irak is too complex as to be poorly simplified in a couple of idealistic diatribes.would you prefer I just acquiesce to your every whim? You do understand, don't you? that your opinion is not universally shared by the whole of humanity and that it is well within my rights as an individual human being to disagree with you.

[Mohammad Ahmad]

[QUOTE=Frédéric Moreau;1268965]You shouldn't waste your time with him, it's like talking to a wall. The situation in Irak is too complex as to be poorly simplified in a couple of idealistic diatribes.[/QUOTE

Good, I thank you, haven't you a hammer to hit him in the middle of his head! Where he lives, I don't know.
a real nuts!
2- You said the truth. in Iraq we are accustomed to hear more but not in a forum like this forum which is devoted to literature, I proved that i am very tolerant to hear a question followed by a question under my poem which it is not related to any questions I received, and I think its suitable place is the chat forum.
For what he comes to ask me let him goes to the Iraqi parliament and negotiate about his trouble to see most of them quarrel by hands at each session

[HCabret]

You shouldn't waste your time with him, it's like talking to a wall. The situation in Irak is too complex as to be poorly simplified in a couple of idealistic diatribes.
Good, I thank you, haven't you hammer to hit him in the middle of his head! Where he lives, I don't . you said the truth. in Iraq we are accustomed to here more but not in the forum of literature, I proved that i am very tolerant to hear a question followed by a question under my poem which it is not related to his questions at all.
For what he comes to ask me let him goes to the Iraqi parliament and negotiate about his trouble to see most of them quarrel by hands at each sessionhttp://cdn01.dailycaller.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Ak47-e1363724603451.pngis this hammer big enough for to hit my head with? Is that what civilized people do when they encounter dissent?

[Frédéric Moreau]

I want to say clearly that I have never meant to be insulting or violent. Mohammad, you shouldn't say such things. I advocate a peaceful debate.

[Frédéric Moreau]

HCabret, I only want you to know that I totally disagree with the violent comments of Muhammad. I don't uphold his remarks either. I only say that the situation is too complicated as to be discussed that way. I am sorry if I have offended you or anyone, I never meant it.

[Mohammad Ahmad]

For the sake of a civilized word I am going to answer you the last answer, now it is obvious for me that you are Kurdish and have lived abroad, there is a proverb "whose hand is in the fire isn't alike whose hand is in the ice". I myself is in the middle of the fire, and if we sleep we don't know tomorrow how it will be, because the situation is fire over fire beside fire from each direction, the time now is very serious and you can't recognize who is your friend and who is your enemy, if you have a loaf of bread to eat this day don't bother yourself for another one, what shall I tell then, generally whole world is in danger and not only Iraq, you have wife and you have house and you have salary and you have petrol and you have gun to fight, others find nothing to eat. Now I am in Iraq and one question if I ask I shall not find the answer like if say: how many opinion is there in one O'clock?
Can I find the satisfied answer? I think not, but everyone of us he himself has his own problem and there is no one is clear out of any problem.
lastly let bygone goes bygone and it is better to read magazine or drinking a cup of tea than to be engaged in things haven't solution.For me there is no right in the entire world. Are all people now living in peace? aren't homeless people? aren't here or there hungry people? aren't in the world people everyday killed without sin? ask yourself question like these question I stated to you then you will be satisfied.

Good by

[HCabret]

HCabret, I only want you to know that I totally disagree with the violent comments of Muhammad. I don't uphold his remarks either. I only say that the situation is too complicated as to be discussed that way. I am sorry if I have offended you or anyone, I never meant it.this is a forum of discussion. If you can't handle an opinion contrary to your own then you're probably in the wrong place. I appreciate our debate and appreciate that you hold your opinions sincerely and honestly; I disagree obviously, but people need to hear an opinion different from their own, to either re-affirm or alter their own opinion. Debate is just as much about convincing yourself as it is about changing someone else's mind. I respect any mind capable of making things up for itself.

I, however, do not respect people who attempt to coerce me in to behaving in a way that I do not want to behave and I do not take kindly to threats of violence against anyone. Frederic, you have made no such threats.

[Frédéric Moreau]

this is a forum of discussion. If you can't handle an opinion contrary to your own then you're probably in the wrong place. I appreciate our debate and appreciate that you hold your opinions sincerely and honestly; I disagree obviously, but people need to hear an opinion different from their own, to either re-affirm or alter their own opinion. Debate is just as much about convincing yourself as it is about changing someone else's mind. I respect any mind capable of making things up for itself.

I, however, do not respect people who attempt to coerce me in to behaving in a way that I do not want to behave and I do not take kindly to threats of violence against anyone. Frederic, you have made no such threats.

I agree with you.

Regards

[free]

Every country has its ethnic minority which tends to be free and independent, therefore they fight for it. The problem is that in this fight they involve people who are not bored if there are no wars around them, people who want to live in peace. If I had some power, I would separate the world into two groups - the ones who want to fight and the ones who want to live in peace and put an unbreakable border between them.

[mal4mac]

Every country has its ethnic minority which tends to be free and independent, therefore they fight for it. The problem is that in this fight they involve people who are not bored if there are no wars around them...

Like the collaborators in France during the second world war? Sometimes you have to fight for freedom.

There is no power that could have placed those who did not want to fight beyond the fascists and the armed resistance. The fascists would force the peaceful to build weapons for them, and the resistance would hide amongst the peaceful. So the peaceful would be involved in the fighting, through building weapons, or hiding the resistance, or giving up the resistance. There is no escape from the fighting. If you decide to just sit there, instead of working for the fascists, then the fascists will kill you. But by giving up so easily you make it easy for the fascists, in effect you are still working for them! So you must join the armed resistance as a moral duty, not play at pacifism.

[Mohammad Ahmad]

Being obvious to me there is still who comes and debates let me post this a new article I write it now about the object itself " Separation of Kurds" or the independence of Kurds of Iraq.
Before the first attempt to post my thread "the article" I have one question: why the black men in US or Australia do not ask for Independence?



The Kurds Independence

This openly discussion over internet pages by people haven’t the minimum level of experience about the matter we consider it intrusion and interference in our sovereignty and we consider it something is odd
Whether it is majority or minority the case is beyond Iraq nation only, it is their decision.
Another time Iraq is composed of many sects and not only the Kurds: the Arab Sauna and Shiite, the Kurd, the Turkmen, the Christian of both Chaldeans and Assyrian, and the Shabak etc…
If only anyone of those seeks about his self-determination right as what Kurd wants, we need to part Iraq for many small pieces then no Iraq will remain, no history, no Mesopotamia shall remain and neither trail nor name.
In one word Kurds find support from west therefore their voices nowadays turn higher and higher.
Why don't they ask about this request, as it is a principal request at the time of Saddam?
The answer is easy to be understood; it is because they find their opportunity now so as Iraq becomes weak after the occupation by America in 2003 on one hand, and the reinforcement they got to their military as well as the occasion, which helped to develop themselves on the other hand. That's the fact always Kurds across history try to seize the opportunity and always ask only about their interests wherever it will be or under any circumstance it will be disregarding to their partners' interests even to put him inside a hell or under a debt of death.
Iraq isn't weak, it will recover, and even if the government is still weak, we the nation shall not agree and shall stop against this project the "division" because it is our heritage especially for Kirkuk because it is the main request of them and without Kirkuk they will not ask about the separated sovereignty i.e. the independence.
Just look, now the country is threatened by the terrorists and the campaigns of Saudi Arabia and other countries, which try to extinguish the lamp of the recently settled government after the occupation of 2003.
Time now is very critical and Kurds strongly everywhere rise up their voices neglecting all great values of nationality and the patriotism, they were always so from the beginning in their thoughts but now as you see they try to well seize the opportunity not to leave behind any paint of nail.
Their main cities since I was born in 1951 are Dohoch, which was district followed to Nineveh until 1970s, Arbil, and al- Sulaymaniyah, that’s all.
Let them by those three provinces and build their new country we shall not refuse and let them build a large strong wall between their new country and Iraq.
Now they decide to seize on Kirkuk, which its people is composed of Arab, Kurds and Turkmen, and if not it contains petrol they will not ask about it.
Now which factor is the first factor in threatening Iraq?
Is it the terrorism only?
Is it the always-probable threat of Iraq neigbours?
Is it the dissent between the politicians?
Is it the Kurds themselves or their decision after separation?
Iraq will not see the peace unless an iron fist of a sternest control fixing the country, and the democracy is just a line written over a book its paper are covered with dusts, so we must remove away the dusts.
If not the peace comes down, let it a hurricane of Tsunami or a nuclear bomb of Hiroshima then will no bird remain no skies, no stone, no any feature of life.
Justice is always the key of solution but when you haven’t confidence or when you presciently know that your partner tends to be untruthful as he behaves without telling you though his actions behind your back, how the confidence should enter force then?
Kurdistan from two years ago exports the petrol without informing the government of Baghdad, in addition from the stolen petrol it exports by the knowing of US administration.
I myself is just small writer or small clerk but as any citizen when sees the danger surrounding its country he will leap up.
Let the peace comes again and we need not to struggle together again as the long passed years from 1960s- 1991.
The IsIs is the most danger now, which can blow up and swallow Kurdistan in two nights.
The "Separation" is not arbitrary process never easy process at all, it needs to be well guided and formed according with the country needs and interests.
We need not to hear others who are abroad out of our country, we need not their consultations; we need any because we are a true nation and can decide.
Any interference we refuse and consider it an aggressive aspect of a new invasion to our country whether it comes from US or from Russia or from the neighbor Arab countries.
For when and we really perceive our interests and our relation with others as well as the peace and safety to our people.
Kurdistan is an important part of Iraq and we need it as we need the capital Baghdad, and I hope our government will work to satisfy them by answering their needs.
Although we are in a bad condition of life beginning from the electricity, which Kurdistan is a better than other parts of Iraq; but let the consequences going well without return to fight again.

[mal4mac]

Iraq is composed of many sects and not only the Kurds: the Arab Sauna and Shiite, the Kurd, the Turkmen, the Christian of both Chaldeans and Assyrian, and the Shabak etc…
If only anyone of those seeks about his self-determination right as what Kurd wants, we need to part Iraq for many small pieces then no Iraq will remain

Would that be so bad? There are some very small countries in Europe that seem to do very well (Monaco, Luxembourg...) The UK is quite small, but Scotland may go independent soon, and most people don't seem bothered either way, certainly not enough to fight about it! There is talk about Cornwall and Wales becoming independent. If people want it, why not? There might be some minorities (English in Wales!) who would not be too happy - but they can move to England. I guess it's a bigger problem where you don't have set borders; where are the borders of Kurdistan? Why not just have a vote?! If more people in Kirkuk want it to be in Kurdistan, then it should be in Kurdistan. Any Arabs who might be too upset to stay can move to Iraq. Why not? OK maybe that's too simple, I just looked at the demographics of Kirkuk:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirkuk#Demographics

That's a difficult three way split! Turkmen and Arabs could outvote Kurds. Why not split Kirkuk, as with Jerusalem? Or could Arabs and Turkmen have control of other cities, if they give away Kirkuk?

[Mohammad Ahmad]

Would that be so bad? There are some very small countries in Europe that seem to do very well (Monaco, Luxembourg...) The UK is quite small, but Scotland may go independent soon, and most people don't seem bothered either way, certainly not enough to fight about it! There is talk about Cornwall and Wales becoming independent. If people want it, why not? There might be some minorities (English in Wales!) who would not be too happy - but they can move to England. I guess it's a bigger problem where you don't have set borders; where are the borders of Kurdistan? Why not just have a vote?! If more people in Kirkuk want it to be in Kurdistan, then it should be in Kurdistan. Any Arabs who might be too upset to stay can move to Iraq. Why not? OK maybe that's too simple, I just looked at the demographics of Kirkuk:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirkuk#Demographics

That's a difficult three way split! Turkmen and Arabs could outvote Kurds. Why not split Kirkuk, as with Jerusalem? Or could Arabs and Turkamen have control of other cities, if they give away Kirkuk?

I need nothing to read, it seems they find a good support between you and a warmth bosom and you the west people in general and the American who incite them pushing them for division.
I think as many times I explained there is no need for more explanation and clarification, the matter is obvious firstly this is considered interference in our sovereignty but it is likely that you want to inflame the country for another time as it is your nature, Iraq is one nation and who hears you is the mad one, 2- Iraq still in trouble and widely is threatened by terrorists not like your countries there is peace and safety and the citizen is totally restful, in one word our security and our general condition yet are too bad and no answer you shall see from me again

[free]

Like the collaborators in France during the second world war? Sometimes you have to fight for freedom.

There is no power that could have placed those who did not want to fight beyond the fascists and the armed resistance. The fascists would force the peaceful to build weapons for them, and the resistance would hide amongst the peaceful. So the peaceful would be involved in the fighting, through building weapons, or hiding the resistance, or giving up the resistance. There is no escape from the fighting. If you decide to just sit there, instead of working for the fascists, then the fascists will kill you. But by giving up so easily you make it easy for the fascists, in effect you are still working for them! So you must join the armed resistance as a moral duty, not play at pacifism.

I said: "If I had some power", meaning that I don't have it now. It is the Second Conditional.