Personal matter

[Frédéric Moreau]

Hello everyone,

I am in love with a gal of my town. I guess that the question may sound quite naive, the childish touts-les-garçons-et-les-filles kind of personal trouble, but I barely have friends and I need comfort. She is rather good-looking and I have the prescience that she shares with me the passion for literature. But not likeing either parties or what ominously is called 'fun' I feel that the chances of approaching her are less than limited, if not none-existing. I don't know what to think or even what to feel, I don't know whether is lonesomeness what I endure or the ghastly burden of an impossible love. I don't know if I am truly in love with her, or if she is only a fathom, a delusion, a token that my mind has created in which all I miss is collected and the horrid gleaming of which seems to be, dreadfully, carefully designed in order to slice off my existence.

Thank you in advance,
Frédéric

[cacian]

Frédéric are you French?
and why do you think getting to know her limited?

[tonywalt]

Hello everyone,

I am in love with a gal of my town. I guess that the question may sound quite naive, the childish touts-les-garçons-et-les-filles kind of personal trouble, but I barely have friends and I need comfort. She is rather good-looking and I have the prescience that she shares with me the passion for literature. But not likeing either parties or what ominously is called 'fun' I feel that the chances of approaching her are less than limited, if not none-existing. I don't know what to think or even what to feel, I don't know whether is lonesomeness what I endure or the ghastly burden of an impossible love. I don't know if I am truly in love with her, or if she is only a fathom, a delusion, a token that my mind has created in which all I miss is collected and the horrid gleaming of which seems to be, dreadfully, carefully designed in order to slice off my existence.

Thank you in advance,
Frédéric

I'd go for it. Beautiful attractive women love guys who are quiet and bookish. You may think that an attractive girl prefers men with a certain social status or popularity, but if you look around that's totally wrong. I once was at a nightclub in London with a few attractive professional football players and the women absolutely shunned them, instead they were interested in me and a my friend (a very bookish guy). That's just they way it is, almost always - or at least alot of the time.

[Frédéric Moreau]

Hello, cacian,

My name is not Frédéric and I am not a Frenchman (a glamourless Spaniard instead), though I love French literature and I wish I knew French to read the novel from which I obtained the name I wield in this Forum: The sentimental education. The French words in my other post come from a song by Françoise Hardy, in which lonesomeness is childishly portrayed, its English equivalent might be Nobody's lonesome for me by Hank Williams Sr. I was only pretending to illustrate the naive side of my infatuation, excuse my pedantic writing, I do not dominate the language of Shakespeare.

My chances are limited on account of my nature: I have always been a shy person, and my stupid sense of chivalry only has brought solitude and introspection to my life. A couple of months ago I had a slight chance of talking to her, but it seemed to have been arranged by God himself: I was strolling around my town when she and a friend of hers asked me to accompany them to their house. A stoned Slav was roaming around town and they were scared. We catch up on our lives (the last time I talked to her was two years ago) and on literature, but not enough to infer whether she actually knows about it or it is only the remainder of what she learnt on High School.

In any case, I might write a novel about my life if I were a talented man. For the moment I read.

Frédéric

[Frédéric Moreau]

I think the same, tonyway, in spite of being a wrecked man concerning love. I highlight that the problem is mainly how to talk to her, though I attended primary school with her I don't dare to approach her, and I don't have even the opportunity of doing it--she only gets out at night: the last time I saw her she was driving a car bound to a night club, and I got to pieces. I beg you again to excuse my English, it may sound pedantic but it is only because I am learning it reading.

[Pumpkin337]

speaking as a woman, we are not so unapproachable as men presume, take your courage in both hands and be open to all possibilities. You already know you can have a conversation with her, it is just now a matter of having another, and then another after that.

[cacian]

Hello, cacian,

My name is not Frédéric and I am not a Frenchman (a glamourless Spaniard instead), though I love French literature and I wish I knew French to read the novel from which I obtained the name I wield in this Forum: The sentimental education. The French words in my other post come from a song by Françoise Hardy, in which lonesomeness is childishly portrayed, its English equivalent might be Nobody's lonesome for me by Hank Williams Sr. I was only pretending to illustrate the naive side of my infatuation, excuse my pedantic writing, I do not dominate the language of Shakespeare.

My chances are limited on account of my nature: I have always been a shy person, and my stupid sense of chivalry only has brought solitude and introspection to my life. A couple of months ago I had a slight chance of talking to her, but it seemed to have been arranged by God himself: I was strolling around my town when she and a friend of hers asked me to accompany them to their house. A stoned Slav was roaming around town and they were scared. We catch up on our lives (the last time I talked to her was two years ago) and on literature, but not enough to infer whether she actually knows about it or it is only the remainder of what she learnt on High School.

In any case, I might write a novel about my life if I were a talented man. For the moment I read.

Frédéric
ah Flaubert of course.
Love is a passion bite the bullet and talk to her.
the worse she could say is no.
I speak from experience. ;)

[Frédéric Moreau]

Yes, but I live in a little village: I fear that my childish crush on her may be source of mockery. The fellows my age loathe me quite much, I never managed to understand why. I know she is a righteous gal, is what most admire of her. However, I don't even know if she is only a crapice created by my lack of love, I don't even know whether I love her or the idea of love itself, of a mutual love I never had.

[Frédéric Moreau]

I am going to sleep. I really thank your annonimous support, it has made me feel a little bit better.

[Pumpkin337]

well I don't think you can fall in love at a distance. You may be in infatuated, certainly attracted, the only way to find out is to venture into the deep waters of relationship - but first you have to find out if she is interested in exploring the possibilities with you, and the only way to do that is to talk to her. For all you know she is wondering why the heck you didn't ask her out after your last meeting.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained, my friend.

or

He who hesitates is lost.

[Ecurb]

He who hesitates is lost.


For every aphorism there is another advocating the opposite. He who hesitates is lost BUT look before you leap. In order to look before you leap, perhaps you should consider stalking this woman for a while. You know where she lives. Set up some cameras and recording equipment. Or, lacking the funds for that, you could wear a disguise and follow her around town. I'd recommend a trench coat and a Graucho Marx nose and mustache.

As far as tony's advice that women like bookish men, I would not advise reciting "To His Coy Mistress". It doesn't work, as I have discovered.

It's a well known fact that Spanish women like bullfighters (as you would know if you liked Hemmingway). Have you considered becoming a torero? True, you might be gored to death, but then she'd be sorry she spurned you (if she found out about it)?

[Pumpkin337]

sheesh lol the guy needs encouragement! Looking is one thing, hesitating is another... you can look WHILE you leap :D keep your eyes wide open and your wits about you, but faint heart won no lady ... ever!

[tonywalt]

As far as tony's advice that women like bookish men, I would not advise reciting "To His Coy Mistress". It doesn't work, as I have discovered.

:skep: Hhmmm, tonywalt is often tongue and cheek. (did anyone buy the football story? - really?!) I was looking at Ronaldo's girlfriend during the world cup. She's very well mannered.

[Calidore]

A couple bits of what seems to me to be common sense:

You will certainly get nowhere if you say nothing. However, you will also get nowhere if you say something but then have nothing to back it up. Lighting a match is meaningless without wood for a fire. The tortured soul who sits home alone pondering his unrequited love may sound romantic to himself, but it's tedious as hell to everyone else.

I will offer the opinion that you are more in love with the ideal than the woman, because you've only spoken to her once in the past two years plus. I will also point out that while she may be willing or able to talk literature, she also goes out clubbing while you sit at home in a club of one. She is active; you are passive.

You say you don't like "what is ominously called 'fun'", but there is no one thing called "fun" that people either like or don't as if it were broccoli. Doing things, and thus finding things that you consider fun, will both get you out of the house and meeting people and also give you something to talk about, with her and with those other people.

[Iain Sparrow]

Hello, cacian,

My chances are limited on account of my nature: I have always been a shy person, and my stupid sense of chivalry only has brought solitude and introspection to my life. A couple of months ago I had a slight chance of talking to her, but it seemed to have been arranged by God himself: I was strolling around my town when she and a friend of hers asked me to accompany them to their house. A stoned Slav was roaming around town and they were scared. We catch up on our lives (the last time I talked to her was two years ago) and on literature, but not enough to infer whether she actually knows about it or it is only the remainder of what she learnt on High School.

In any case, I might write a novel about my life if I were a talented man. For the moment I read.

Frédéric

First off, my advice is to drop the chivalry part of your nature. If chivalry isn't dead it should be; it's old world, condescending, and subtly enforces gender roles. Women do not require our protection, or a hyper-awareness for their virtue, or even need us to open doors for them. Try treating women as real people, you'll be amazed at the results.
The girl asked you to accompany her and a friend to their house... what else do you want, an engraved invitation to ask her out for coffee? If you really dig this woman then next time you bump into her, just talk to her. If it seems like you might have something going, just ask for her phone number and if it'd be okay to give her a call. No matter how confident some of us are, we still get butterflies before asking someone out for a date. Big deal, are you afraid of butterflies?

Don't get so worked up about things... and books are nice, but a poor substitute for living life and getting out and having some fun.

[cacian]

:skep: Hhmmm, tonywalt is often tongue and cheek. (did anyone buy the football story? - really?!) I was looking at Ronaldo's girlfriend during the world cup. She's very well mannered.

very well mannered as in polite?

[free]

Be brave, F. Tell her anything that comes to your mind when you are with her. Be yourself. If she refuses you, it means that she doesn't deserve you. The sooner you find it out the better for you. If you suffer afterwards think why. Would it be your hurt vanity or because there would be no more hope in you to be with her? Get rid of vanity, it is not good for love. If it is the other thing, then ask yourself why do you prefer only to hope than to make your wishes come true. There are lots of nice girls around, I am sure (at least) one of them is waiting for you.

Good luck.

[Frédéric Moreau]

Thank you quite much for your advices, I will try to answer all of them.

First of all, I would suggest to avoid clichés given that they are mostly wrong: you would laugh a great deal if you hear the clichés about Englishmen or Americans that go around Spain. The Spaniards don't wear torero's suits every Sunday, nor they dance flamenco or are all of them a bunch of slackers. In the same way as all of Americans are not fat or dumb, nor the Englishwomen ugly and glamourless. Actually, Spanish society emerges from Civil War through hard-working (the generation of my grandfathers had to work without going on vacation, twelve hours per day), hunger and mourning. Without the help of those that during the war came here to spread the fire of violence like an amusement.

I think that what I called 'my sense of chivalry' does not necessarily entail a condescend feeling towards womanhood, just the contrary: I try not to harass women by treating them like if they were stupid, like most of Casanovas do. They are old enough to decide whether they want me or no. I loathe the game of seduction, I never understood it.

I will try to approach her, I think I can only hope a casual encounter. And, since I don't know anything about her habits, I find it difficult to force that encounter: I stroll aimless around my town, yearning for her presence, but all my efforts are worthless.

Excuses again for my stiff English.

Frédéric

[Pumpkin337]

no idea how old you are but yearning for unrequited love might sound romantic but is honestly just a load of old bollocks - be a man, gird your loins and go where no man err you have not gone before.

[Frédéric Moreau]

no idea how old you are but yearning for unrequited love might sound romantic but is honestly just a load of old bollocks - be a man, gird your loins and go where no man err you have not gone before.

I am nineteen years old. And the problem is that my life is ridiculous enough as to be source of mockery again, a close friend of hers is the most gossip girl around town and I am sure that if I say something to her all the town would know it immediately.

[Ecurb]

Cliches, Frederic, are the essence of humor. According to Henri Begson, humor is the embodyment of something mechanical in something human. That's why it's funny when Charlie Chaplin walks like a wind-up toy -- or when standard aphorisms are contradicted by other aphorisms.

Excuse my ignorance of Spanish culture. It has been gleaned mainly from waching Carlos Saura movies, like El Amor Brujo, Bodas de Sangre, and (of course) Carmen. So, naturally, I believed that Sapnish women like flamenco dancing and bullfighters.

I'm afraid your case might be hopeless, Frederic. You don't like "fun", you don't like parties, and you despise the "game" of seduction. Also, everyone your age in your village hates you. That's according to your own reports! Perhaps you should try to have fun, and people (including women) would enjoy your company more. Most people -- even, probably, beautiful, workaholic Spanish women -- like having fun.

According to old Mr. Emerson ("Room with a View"), "Life is a public performance on the violin, in which you must learn the instrument as you go along." If you don't enjoy learning the instrument, you won't learn to play it well.

[Pumpkin337]

I am nineteen years old. And the problem is that my life is ridiculous enough as to be source of mockery again, a close friend of hers is the most gossip girl around town and I am sure that if I say something to her all the town would know it immediately.

Much becomes clearer - first life lesson - despite what we think when we are self-conscious angst ridden teenagers most of the time most people don't pay that much attention and the thing about gossip is that it only lasts 2 seconds while in some one's mouth and then they are on to the next topic.

So ... ya knows whats to do ....

[Frédéric Moreau]

Cliches, Frederic, are the essence of humor. According to Henri Begson, humor is the embodyment of something mechanical in something human. That's why it's funny when Charlie Chaplin walks like a wind-up toy -- or when standard aphorisms are contradicted by other aphorisms.

Excuse my ignorance of Spanish culture. It has been gleaned mainly from waching Carlos Saura movies, like El Amor Brujo, Bodas de Sangre, and (of course) Carmen. So, naturally, I believed that Sapnish women like flamenco dancing and bullfighters.

I'm afraid your case might be hopeless, Frederic. You don't like "fun", you don't like parties, and you despise the "game" of seduction. Also, everyone your age in your village hates you. That's according to your own reports! Perhaps you should try to have fun, and people (including women) would enjoy your company more. Most people -- even, probably, beautiful, workaholic Spanish women -- like having fun.

According to old Mr. Emerson ("Room with a View"), "Life is a public performance on the violin, in which you must learn the instrument as you go along." If you don't enjoy learning the instrument, you won't learn to play it well.


I wasn't upset by your comment at all. I only wanted to correct the vision of Spanish society that rules abroad. I do like bullfighting -though I never have attended a 'corrida'-, but the reality is that most of youngs don't show interest about it if not directly despise it. Moreover, the south of Spain is completely different to the north, the east or the west. The flamenco is a tradition only in the south, in other regions of the country are more popular the 'Jotas', the 'Sardana' or the 'Aurresku'. But that folklore is something that only exists for the tourists, a business. The youngs here only drink, it is horrible.

I know that I have few chances, I am a weird and ridiculous man. When I was sixteen I decided to try to be another young, but I couldn't bear it.

[Frédéric Moreau]

The condition of Spanish youth is perfectly explained in this short:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1v-bCyeIR4

[tonywalt]

very well mannered as in polite?

She is very polite. When Ronaldo asks her to do something - she politely says YES. (otherwise he's on to the next supermodel and the next one, unless Leonardo di Caprio is dating the supermodel in his scopes.

In summary: She's polite. She has to be. When you are dating a world class professional football player there is too much on the line to lose (being dumped by said football player) to not be polite.

[Iain Sparrow]

I am nineteen years old. And the problem is that my life is ridiculous enough as to be source of mockery again, a close friend of hers is the most gossip girl around town and I am sure that if I say something to her all the town would know it immediately.

Well then that explains a lot.
We all go through these things at nineteen and sometimes well into our twenties. To be honest with you, at nineteen this isn't a time for you to get so serious about women. Play the field and experiment, at such a tender age you really have no idea what you really want, and that's alright. I'm probably going to sound like your parents right now, but you should be way more concerned about completing your education and securing a rewarding job. A confident man whose making his way in life is far more attractive to a woman than one who is worried about gossipmongers.

[Frédéric Moreau]

Well then that explains a lot.
We all go through these things at nineteen and sometimes well into our twenties. To be honest with you, at nineteen this isn't a time for you to get so serious about women. Play the field and experiment, at such a tender age you really have no idea what you really want, and that's alright. I'm probably going to sound like your parents right now, but you should be way more concerned about completing your education and securing a rewarding job. A confident man whose making his way in life is far more attractive to a woman than one who is worried about gossipmongers.


Je, je. That's another problem, I dropped out of High School when I was sixteen, I reckon now that it was a mistake, but it's a little bit late to solve it. Believe me when I tell you that I have experimented quite much, and sex without deeper feelings seems horrible to me. I want a girl with whom I may talk about interesting subjects. But that's the only thing I miss in my life, it would be somehow so perfect to be real. I am sure that when I finally get an appropriate girlfriend I will be touched by disgrace.

[cacian]

She is very polite. When Ronaldo asks her to do something - she politely says YES. (otherwise he's on to the next supermodel and the next one, unless Leonardo di Caprio is dating the supermodel in his scopes.

In summary: She's polite. She has to be. When you are dating a world class professional football player there is too much on the line to lose (being dumped by said football player) to not be polite.

not before I dumped him though.
there is always that possibility.
I am polite if he is.
If he is not then I could not be.
to date a professional footballer just means you have to be willing to go with the life style and from where I am standing there is not much of it
a relationship with such is a risk factor but then there is money and so that compensates for when things go tits up because conventions and football do not sit together well.
of course there is always one or two who will stand out from the crowd but apart from that the rest I imagine is a nightmare to be had.
I think you would find she is more then polite.

[chevalierdelame]

The condition of Spanish youth is perfectly explained in this short:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1v-bCyeIR4

This is terrible. I have the same problem, because people of my age seem to do nothing but go shopping and partying.

I am only nineteen too, and I suppose not exactly old enough to give you advice. But just my experience.
At sixteen I met a guy who was rather good looking but just average.I mean he was pretty decent, but I don't think he'd read anything in his life except the textbooks. I was flattered by his interest, (vanity. like free says, is not good for love) and we had a kind of relationship. But after a couple of months I realized that I absolutely detested him, and there was no reason because he was very good to me. I'm afraid I behaved rather shabbily by him.

Then about a year ago, there was someone who was grave, quiet and just about perfect. I was infatuated and I don't know what he thought, because I didn't have the courage to do anything about it. And the gossips got hold of it, I can't imagine how they did unless they could read my thoughts, and they made it look like some horrible running after, I mean in a vulgar sort of way. And I was pretty much ostracized for a while (I don't mind it, I don't talk with the silly fools anyway, but it was unpleasant). And of course I kept miles away from him.
I don't think gossips have a right to decide what we do with our life, so if you have more courage than I did, go ahead and talk to her.

P.S. - By the way, I'm a girl, so my apologies if my username has misled the forum members so far.

[Frédéric Moreau]

This is terrible. I have the same problem, because people of my age seem to do nothing but go shopping and partying.

I am only nineteen too, and I suppose not exactly old enough to give you advice. But just my experience.
At sixteen I met a guy who was rather good looking but just average.I mean he was pretty decent, but I don't think he'd read anything in his life except the textbooks. I was flattered by his interest, (vanity. like free says, is not good for love) and we had a kind of relationship. But after a couple of months I realized that I absolutely detested him, and there was no reason because he was very good to me. I'm afraid I behaved rather shabbily by him.

Then about a year ago, there was someone who was grave, quiet and just about perfect. I was infatuated and I don't know what he thought, because I didn't have the courage to do anything about it. And the gossips got hold of it, I can't imagine how they did unless they could read my thoughts, and they made it look like some horrible running after, I mean in a vulgar sort of way. And I was pretty much ostracized for a while (I don't mind it, I don't talk with the silly fools anyway, but it was unpleasant). And of course I kept miles away from him.
I don't think gossips have a right to decide what we do with our life, so if you have more courage than I did, go ahead and talk to her.

P.S. - By the way, I'm a girl, so my apologies if my username has misled the forum members so far.

It seems that you are my alter ego. When I was sixteen I had a rather similar experience, I met a girl of my High School who was, as you have said, “just average”. I begun to take her out but, though I thought that she was a well-meaning girl, I felt quite lonely when I was with her, as Moustaki would say “I am never lonely with my solitude”. I mean that the only way for me to end with lonesomeness is being with a person who shares equal interests, apprehensions and wishes. If not, it only turns worse.

I don't know deeply the girl I am talking about and I am quite sure that if, at length, I realise that she is just another “average girl” I will not like her. My infatuation (in Spanish I would say “enamoramiento”, but that word does not exist in English) is build upon a hope that she may be the girl I need. There is an extraordinary novel by Ernesto Sabato, 'The tunnel', that reflects perfectly this anxiety. The main character is a painter. The story begins when, in one of his exhibitions, he notices a girl becoming aware of a subtle detail in one of his paintings that everybody has ignored. He gently develops an obsession that will end tragically when he realises, after all, of the ordinary girl she really is, I fear and feel the same. I quote him:

“I was even convinced that during those moments her face changed, that her lips curled with scorn and she was perhaps laughing with some other man, and that the whole story of the passageways was my own ridiculous invention,*and that after all there was only one tunnel, dark and solitary: mine, the tunnel in which I had spent my childhood, my youth, my entire life. And in one of those transparent sections of the stone wall I had seen this girl and had naïvely believed that she was moving in a tunnel parallel to mine, when in fact she belonged to the wide world, the unbounded world of those who did not live in tunnels; and perhaps out of curiosity she had approached one of my strange windows, and had glimpsed the spectacle of my unredeemable solitude, or had been intrigued by the mute message, the key, of my painting. And then, while I kept moving through my passageway, she lived her normal life outside, the exciting life of people who live outside, that curious and absurd life in which there are dances and parties and gaiety, and frivolity. And sometimes it happened that when I passed by one of my windows she was waiting for me, silent and anxious (why waiting for me? why silent and anxious?); but at other times she did not come in time, or she forgot that poor caged being, and then I, my face pressed against the wall of glass, watched her in the distance laughing or dancing without a care in the world or, which was worse, I did not see her at all, and imagined her in obscene places I could not reach. At those times I felt that my destiny was infinitely more lonely than I had ever imagined.”

Frédéric

[Pumpkin337]

yes it does - the word is remarkably similar too - inamorata (female) · inamorato (male)

[Iain Sparrow]

I don't think gossips have a right to decide what we do with our life, so if you have more courage than I did, go ahead and talk to her.

P.S. - By the way, I'm a girl, so my apologies if my username has misled the forum members so far.


You should never be worried about what the gossiper says about you... the worry is when people stop talking behind your back. It means you aren't doing anything all that interesting.;)

[Frédéric Moreau]

yes it does - the word is remarkably similar too - inamorata (female) · inamorato (male)

I mean a noun, not an adjective. 'Enamoramiento' -according to the Royal Spanish Academy- is the action and effect of falling in love. Infatuation seems to me something different, with a shade of obsession, and 'crush' the same.

[Frédéric Moreau]

You should never be worried about what the gossiper says about you... the worry is when people stop talking behind your back. It means you aren't doing anything all that interesting.;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_TB_r5-cf4

[Pumpkin337]

I don't know which dictionary you used but it is - (male/female) sweetheart or lover

[Frédéric Moreau]

I don't know which dictionary you used but it is - (male/female) sweetheart or lover

Yes, I know, but I was referring to a different concept. Enamoramiento means the action and effect of falling in love, and that word -as a noun- does not exist in English with the same meaning.

[Pumpkin337]

you just used the verb then yourself :P ... I fall in love ... Let's fall in love ... She fell in love ....

[Frédéric Moreau]

you just used the verb then yourself :P ... I fall in love ... Let's fall in love ... She fell in love ....

I wrote:

"My infatuation (in Spanish I would say “enamoramiento”, but that word does not exist in English) is build upon a hope that she may be the girl I need."

'Infatuation' is a noun, the most similar in English to 'enamoramiento', though not equal. That was what I wanted to explain.

[illiterati]

I say, if you really want to demonstrate your passion, go for broke with a gesture of idiosyncratic zeal--something she can't ignore, like cutting off an ear and mailing it or sending links to creepy video recordings of moments she thought were private--something to set you apart from the crowd.

[Frédéric Moreau]

I say, if you really want to demonstrate your passion, go for broke with a gesture of idiosyncratic zeal--something she can't ignore, like cutting off an ear and mailing it or sending links to creepy video recordings of moments she thought were private--something to set you apart from the crowd.

Though there was a time when I painted, I am not Van Gogh. And it is not passion what I feel, it is an interest for a girl I hope could understand me and, if it is like that, an 'enamoramiento'.

[saralynn]

Listen Frederic, you need to get yourself a book on Cognitive Therapy. When I was your age, I was helped considerably by an approach used to help people overcome self-consciousness and shyness. The author/psychologist, Albert Ellis, would give his patients assignments. He would ask you to do something completely ludicrous, so people would stare at you. For obvious reasons, I would advise completing this assignment somewhere other than in your home town. Anyway, his theory was that when you were stared at often enough by people with critical eyes, you would develop a degree of mental toughness.

I fulfilled this assignment by going into a subway, and standing up and calling out the names of the stations in which we stopped. "Times Square!" "Madison Square Garden!" Yes, people looked at me. Yes, people thought I was crazy. But, you know....it worked...at least to some degree. At first, I felt such dread that it was physically painful. Then....after many repetitions, I really ceased caring.

Another alternative is to read the Existentialists. They have a way of putting things in perspective. Obsessing about death, nonbeing, existential insecurity and inauthenticity will have an effect on your consciousness. If you decide not to slit your throat, you won't fret about social matters to such a large degree.

Whatever..... I will be rooting for you. Keep us informed.
Shall I give you an assignment?

[chevalierdelame]

You should never be worried about what the gossiper says about you.;)

Yes, I suppose so. :)
But the thing is, it's not so much behind your back as right in front of your face.

[chevalierdelame]

I don't know deeply the girl I am talking about and I am quite sure that if, at length, I realise that she is just another “average girl” I will not like her.

Yes, but the best thing to do is find out, and for that you need to talk to her. I know it's easier said than done, but... well there it is...


The story begins when, in one of his exhibitions, he notices a girl becoming aware of a subtle detail in one of his paintings that everybody has ignored. He gently develops an obsession that will end tragically when he realises, after all, of the ordinary girl she really is, I fear and feel the same. I quote him:

I read some reviews of this book and an Amazon preview. Most people have interpreted the story in a different way, that is, that Castel "consistently misreads, overinterprets or simply imagines events in a vicious circle in which his own madness feeds on itself to the point that he destroys the very person who most profoundly understands him."

But in the passage you quoted, it says that he "had naïvely believed that she was moving in a tunnel parallel to mine, when in fact she belonged to the wide world, the unbounded world of those who did not live in tunnels; "
" And then, while I kept moving through my passageway, she lived her normal life outside, the exciting life of people who live outside, that curious and absurd life in which there are dances and parties and gaiety, and frivolity. "

So I don't think you can say that she actually understood him.
It is written in a beautiful style. Rather reminds me of the "I am a desert talking to myself" style of Violette Leduc.

Perhaps as saralynn says psychology could help you. It is a comfort to know that all your trouble can be condensed into a long word that can be further condensed into an acronym that means as little as ABC. I know this is not what you mean, saralynn, and this is a rather ridiculous thing to say. But I speak from experience. I even wanted to become a psychologist at one point, but dropped it midway through.

[Iain Sparrow]

Listen Frederic, you need to get yourself a book on Cognitive Therapy. When I was your age, I was helped considerably by an approach used to help people overcome self-consciousness and shyness. The author/psychologist, Albert Ellis, would give his patients assignments. He would ask you to do something completely ludicrous, so people would stare at you. For obvious reasons, I would advise completing this assignment somewhere other than in your home town. Anyway, his theory was that when you were stared at often enough by people with critical eyes, you would develop a degree of mental toughness.

I fulfilled this assignment by going into a subway, and standing up and calling out the names of the stations in which we stopped. "Times Square!" "Madison Square Garden!" Yes, people looked at me. Yes, people thought I was crazy. But, you know....it worked...at least to some degree. At first, I felt such dread that it was physically painful. Then....after many repetitions, I really ceased caring.

Another alternative is to read the Existentialists. They have a way of putting things in perspective. Obsessing about death, nonbeing, existential insecurity and inauthenticity will have an effect on your consciousness. If you decide not to slit your throat, you won't fret about social matters to such a large degree.

Whatever..... I will be rooting for you. Keep us informed.
Shall I give you an assignment?

I think this is very good advice.

Most of our anxieties and fears become rather silly when finally confronted.
When I'm scared of something and in need of perspective, I simply ask myself, "will any of this matter when I'm dead".

[Iain Sparrow]

Perhaps as saralynn says psychology could help you. It is a comfort to know that all your trouble can be condensed into a long word that can be further condensed into an acronym that means as little as ABC. I know this is not what you mean, saralynn, and this is a rather ridiculous thing to say. But I speak from experience. I even wanted to become a psychologist at one point, but dropped it midway through.

It's not silly at all... the human mind is both complex, and sometimes rather crude and simple.
Most times we don't even know why or how we've developed our individual fears. Simplifying them is a good way to at least reach a point where they can be managed.

[chevalierdelame]

Of course it's not silly. I didn't say it was. I meant, what I'm saying was maybe ridiculous. And psychology's helped me in a way.

[YesNo]

The condition of Spanish youth is perfectly explained in this short:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1v-bCyeIR4

Unfortunately, I'm no better with the ladies than you are. So I won't bother giving advice. However, that video was funny! The heavier one reminded me of my niece.

[Iain Sparrow]

Of course it's not silly. I didn't say it was. I meant, what I'm saying was maybe ridiculous. And psychology's helped me in a way.

I was agreeing with you, and that what you said was neither silly or ridiculous; that understanding psychology is a great place to start when dealing with our own problems.:) I'd also add that reading books on philosophy is another way in which to deal with such things. It's certainly helped me at various times in my life.

[Frédéric Moreau]

First of all, thank you for your help.

[/QUOTE]Listen Frederic, you need to get yourself a book on Cognitive Therapy. When I was your age, I was helped considerably by an approach used to help people overcome self-consciousness and shyness. The author/psychologist, Albert Ellis, would give his patients assignments. He would ask you to do something completely ludicrous, so people would stare at you. For obvious reasons, I would advise completing this assignment somewhere other than in your home town. Anyway, his theory was that when you were stared at often enough by people with critical eyes, you would develop a degree of mental toughness.[/QUOTE]

I am not very fond of psychologists. When I was younger I went to several of them and I didn't receive much help: I was being bullied at school then and all I needed was a little bit of care and understanding. Instead, I had to spent hours playing chess with the psychologist, who only wanted to earn her living. Moreover, she didn't give me back a book I lent her.

The other experience with psychology was when I took a test of intelligence at school. According to its results, I was a dumb child and my reading comprehension and vocabulary were poor.

In spite of the aforesaid, I did somehow your assignment. During my adolescence, a very tough adolescence, I tried to do every sort of eccentricities in order to draw the attention of everybody. I found funny, for instance, to talk to myself aloud when I was in the bus, or to invent rare languages and feign to be a foreigner. Sometimes I even spoke Spanish with English accent -I didn't know anything of English then- to seem sophisticated. But I never did such things before people I know.

[/QUOTE]Another alternative is to read the Existentialists. They have a way of putting things in perspective. Obsessing about death, nonbeing, existential insecurity and inauthenticity will have an effect on your consciousness. If you decide not to slit your throat, you won't fret about social matters to such a large degree.[/QUOTE]

I like existentialists quite much, though when I read them I always end up feeling a sort of dizziness.

[/QUOTE]Yes, but the best thing to do is find out, and for that you need to talk to her. I know it's easier said than done, but... well there it is.[/QUOTE]

I agree with you. But I never see her, and when I do it she is always with friends, a horrible kind of friends. And there is another problem, since I don't use social media it seems difficult to me to keep in touch with her.

[/QUOTE]I read some reviews of this book and an Amazon preview. Most people have interpreted the story in a different way, that is, that Castel "consistently misreads, overinterprets or simply imagines events in a vicious circle in which his own madness feeds on itself to the point that he destroys the very person who most profoundly understands him."
But in the passage you quoted, it says that he "had naïvely believed that she was moving in a tunnel parallel to mine, when in fact she belonged to the wide world, the unbounded world of those who did not live in tunnels; "
" And then, while I kept moving through my passageway, she lived her normal life outside, the exciting life of people who live outside, that curious and absurd life in which there are dances and parties and gaiety, and frivolity. "
So I don't think you can say that she actually understood him. [/QUOTE]

I don't have said that.

[/QUOTE]It is written in a beautiful style. Rather reminds me of the "I am a desert talking to myself" style of Violette Leduc.[/QUOTE]

Sabato seems to me one of the best writers of the South American boom, and sadly one of the worst rated. He lived almost a hundred years and only wrote three novels, given that everything he wrote ended up burned in the trash can. I suggest that you read also Alejo Carpentier, Borges, Vargas Llosa, Javier Marías, Antonio Muñoz Molina, Martín Santos and Juan Benet -this last was the Spanish Faulkner-. They are among the greatest writers of contemporary Spanish literature.

[chevalierdelame]

I agree with you. But I never see her, and when I do it she is always with friends, a horrible kind of friends. And there is another problem, since I don't use social media it seems difficult to me to keep in touch with her.
I know. I used to fantasize about, what if he (the perfect guy I met last year) and I were alone in this world. I suppose this is immature and naively romantic.

I don't have said that.
Actually, when I said 'you' I was referring to the people who wrote the reviews. Silly way to speak, I suppose. I'm sorry and English isn't my first language either.


Sabato seems to me one of the best writers of the South American boom, and sadly one of the worst rated. He lived almost a hundred years and only wrote three novels, given that everything he wrote ended up burned in the trash can. I suggest that you read also Alejo Carpentier, Borges, Vargas Llosa, Javier Marías, Antonio Muñoz Molina, Martín Santos and Juan Benet -this last was the Spanish Faulkner-. They are among the greatest writers of contemporary Spanish literature.
Thanks, I'll try to find and read them.

I have this idea about psychology which may be prejudiced or just plain wrong. If psychology is like Newtonian physics, literature is like Einsteinian physics. The first is all very well to build a bridge or a road. But to differentiate between time and space, the finite and the infinite it's no use. So maybe psychology can help people with claustrophobia or OCD, but there are times when it is not sufficient. (I don't know a lot about physics, so sorry if this analogy is wrong.)
Lord Wotton wonders in 'Dorian Gray' "whether we could ever make psychology so absolute a science that each little spring of life would be revealed to us." Psychology does not take into account the fact that people are as irrational and illogical as they can be without being actually insane.

No offense anyone please, it's just an idea.

[Iain Sparrow]

Thanks, I'll try to find and read them.

I have this idea about psychology which may be prejudiced or just plain wrong. If psychology is like Newtonian physics, literature is like Einsteinian physics. The first is all very well to build a bridge or a road. But to differentiate between time and space, the finite and the infinite it's no use. So maybe psychology can help people with claustrophobia or OCD, but there are times when it is not sufficient. (I don't know a lot about physics, so sorry if this analogy is wrong.)
Lord Wotton wonders in 'Dorian Gray' "whether we could ever make psychology so absolute a science that each little spring of life would be revealed to us." Psychology does not take into account the fact that people are as irrational and illogical as they can be without being actually insane.

No offense anyone please, it's just an idea.

Psychology is a more exact science than you give it credit for, and it does indeed take into account irrational thought. We're hardwired to think irrationally, it's a product of evolution. We are by far the most emotional creature in the Animal Kingdom, and emotions often lead to irrational thought and actions. In fact no other animal can lay claim to irrational thought, it's purely human.

[Frédéric Moreau]

Hello everyone,

Unfortunately, until April 14th I am not very much available: I am on vacation, mainly in order to please my family, and I am now in the south of Spain, surrounded just by the kind of people I loathe: tourists. Here I don't even have an appropriate WIFI connection; the place is lousy -though I fear that most of people would like it-: the classic southern Spanish coast town. The heat is unbearable; I need cold to be fine, I can't do anything because of this torrid evil heat. Moreover, there is no bookstore around and I can't read due to my outrage. I should have stayed at home.

I hate that sort of dreams. Once I dreamed that I was strolling across a beach –a rare dream, given that I don’t like beaches- with a girl on whom I had a crush then. When I woke up I wanted to kill myself, it made me realize of how much love I lacked. I am a romantic man, and that is my disgrace.

Months ago I watched all the movies about Antoine Doinel, by Truffaut, and I realized that he was almost like me, even physically –I am a short man either, quite pale and black haired-. But what finally torn me down was seeing how his sentimental life was being gently developed, I don’t know how to explain it, but that made me hope, for a while, that also mine could eventually heighten. When the movie finished, I was altogether shattered.

Excuses for my English, I am writing hastily and thank you for your help, I will try to answer you.

Frédéric

[Calidore]

Good grief. How exactly do you expect to find this love you lack when you seem to despise and complain about everybody and everything around you:


I am on vacation, mainly in order to please my family, and I am now in the south of Spain, surrounded just by the kind of people I loathe: tourists. Here I don't even have an appropriate WIFI connection; the place is lousy -though I fear that most of people would like it-: the classic southern Spanish coast town. The heat is unbearable; I need cold to be fine, I can't do anything because of this torrid evil heat. Moreover, there is no bookstore around and I can't read due to my outrage. I should have stayed at home.


not likeing either parties or what ominously is called 'fun'


I loathe the game of seduction,


The youngs here only drink, it is horrible.


I know that I have few chances, I am a weird and ridiculous man. When I was sixteen I decided to try to be another young, but I couldn't bear it.


But that's the only thing I miss in my life, it would be somehow so perfect to be real. I am sure that when I finally get an appropriate girlfriend I will be touched by disgrace.


But I never see her, and when I do it she is always with friends, a horrible kind of friends.

You say "I am a romantic man, and that is my disgrace", but how is anyone supposed to see a romantic man through all this bile and venom you throw about, including on yourself?

Important rule: If you want people to like you, you have to show them someone likable. This will require actual effort on your part to see others as different-but-equal rather than different-thus-"horrible".


but that made me hope, for a while, that also mine could eventually heighten.

It certainly can, but just as your current situation didn't just happen to you without any effort on your part, improvement won't either. For example:


That's another problem, I dropped out of High School when I was sixteen, I reckon now that it was a mistake, but it's a little bit late to solve it.

It's never too late. What keeps you from getting a high school equivalency certification?


And there is another problem, since I don't use social media it seems difficult to me to keep in touch with her.

Easy solution: Learn to use social media. You don't need to live on Facebook or Twitter, but you can at least understand them and have a presence.


since I don't know anything about her habits, I find it difficult to force that encounter

You do know something about her habits, namely that she likes clubbing.


I mean that the only way for me to end with lonesomeness is being with a person who shares equal interests, apprehensions and wishes.

This is true. However, you also need to be able to meet their needs. What do you offer?


I want a girl with whom I may talk about interesting subjects.

Again, what are interesting subjects to you? More to the point, how many interesting subjects do you actually have to talk about?

Reality check: You seem to do much less than most people, so you probably have much less interesting to talk about. Do more things, expand your horizons, and you'll have both more to talk about and more people to talk about those things with.


I don't know deeply the girl I am talking about and I am quite sure that if, at length, I realise that she is just another “average girl” I will not like her. My infatuation (in Spanish I would say “enamoramiento”, but that word does not exist in English) is build upon a hope that she may be the girl I need. There is an extraordinary novel by Ernesto Sabato, 'The tunnel', that reflects perfectly this anxiety. The main character is a painter. The story begins when, in one of his exhibitions, he notices a girl becoming aware of a subtle detail in one of his paintings that everybody has ignored. He gently develops an obsession that will end tragically when he realises, after all, of the ordinary girl she really is, I fear and feel the same.

Another reality check: This is some stupendous arrogance. The people around you are not less than you, and looking at them that way is not helping you at all.

[Pumpkin337]

@Calidor Well said!!!

[saralynn]

Calidor....well, someone had to say it.

The approach may be therapy, religion, philosophy, or pharmaceuticals, but a radical shift must somehow occur in his perceptions or he can anticipate a lifetime of misery. The first step is recognizing that our problems and their solution lie within us. Great suffering....and I do believe our friend Frederick is in pain....can either polish or corrode our character. Whether it is a gift or a curse depends solely on us.

[chevalierdelame]

Great suffering....and I do believe our friend Frederick is in pain....can either polish or corrode our character. Whether it is a gift or a curse depends solely on us.

Maybe he should read the 'De Profundis'
Oscar Wilde believed that it could only polish, and well, I don't know which it is. Perhaps it polishes and corrodes at the same time.


I am a romantic man, and that is my disgrace.
Read the romantics, starting with Keats' odes. Their Romanticism is not solely about love, but the aery things like perfection and idealism. What Mathew Arnold called 'an ineffectual angel beating his wings in a void' or something like that. It might be ineffectual but if poets like Keats and Shelley believed in them, it couldn't be very wrong to believe in them yourself. I find them very consoling, specially after I've read something by the existentialists.

P.S. Don't worry so much about the heat and the tourists :)

[saralynn]

Maybe he should read the 'De Profundis'
Oscar Wilde believed that it could only polish, and well, I don't know which it is. Perhaps it polishes and corrodes at the same time.


Read the romantics, starting with Keats' odes. Their Romanticism is not solely about love, but the aery things like perfection and idealism. What Mathew Arnold called 'an ineffectual angel beating his wings in a void' or something like that. It might be ineffectual but if poets like Keats and Shelley believed in them, it couldn't be very wrong to believe in them yourself. I find them very consoling, specially after I've read something by the existentialists.

P.S. Don't worry so much about the heat and the tourists :)

All good ideas. Keats letters are especially wonderful. One thing I know with certainty....Frederick should NEVER NEVER read "The Sorrows of Young Werther"!!!!

Then there's Buddhism. He would understand that heat and tourists and all the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune are simply "manure for enlightenment"

[Iain Sparrow]

All good ideas. Keats letters are especially wonderful. One thing I know with certainty....Frederick should NEVER NEVER read "The Sorrows of Young Werther"!!!!

Then there's Buddhism. He would understand that heat and tourists and all the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune are simply "manure for enlightenment"

This has now gone off the deep end.
Our dear Frédéric should finish his education, and find a rewarding job!.. he most definitely does not need to be reading outdated, dreamy poetry by Keats and Shelley; both of whom should be blotted out as overrated, whimsical, silly men who produced overwrought prose that need be read once in school... and then soon forgotten.

Do you really think a woman of substance is ever going to be interested in a guy who dropped out of school, doesn't have a job, and complains about the heat?

It's time for some tough love around here.

[Pumpkin337]

I think the problem is already an excess of literature and what he needs is a dose of reality. There is a place for wafting around like a romantic poet all tragic like and there is a place for pulling yourself together and just getting on with it.

It's all fine and well to model all the angst ridden tragics of yesterday but they weren't the best friends to have around and were pretty messed up, not to mention booze soaked, rum ridden or chasers of the magic dragon - ie they were not people you want to look to for advice, either in their books, or personal lives in how to be happy, win friends and influence people.

One of the essential parts of growing up is realising that the world and every one in it aren't bit players in your own personal tragedy. Most of the time they are too self-absorbed in their own drama to care about yours. Most of the time when you think they are staring and talking about you, what they are actually saying is "Don't look at me! Dear God, please don't look at me!"


So get your nose out of the books and into real life. Look up, look around you instead of morosely contemplating the tragedy you think your life is, get involved, be the kind of friend to others that you would like them to be, for heaven's sake try to find something positive say! About anything! It will transform your life.

[Iain Sparrow]

I think the problem is already an excess of literature and what he needs is a dose of reality. There is a place for wafting around like a romantic poet all tragic like and there is a place for pulling yourself together and just getting on with it.

It's all fine and well to model all the angst ridden tragics of yesterday but they weren't the best friends to have around and were pretty messed up, not to mention booze soaked, rum ridden or chasers of the magic dragon - ie they were not people you want to look to for advice, either in their books, or personal lives in how to be happy, win friends and influence people.

One of the essential parts of growing up is realising that the world and every one in it aren't bit players in your own personal tragedy. Most of the time they are too self-absorbed in their own drama to care about yours. Most of the time when you think they are staring and talking about you, what they are actually saying is "Don't look at me! Dear God, please don't look at me!"


So get your nose out of the books and into real life. Look up, look around you instead of morosely contemplating the tragedy you think your life is, get involved, be the kind of friend to others that you would like them to be, for heaven's sake try to find something positive say! About anything! It will transform your life.


That is so true, so very true.

Life owes us nothing. We will take from it what we put into it.
I find myself thinking back when I was Frédéric's age... my energy was boundless, as was my naiveté, I was always broke and in and out of relationships. But I rarely complained, enjoying the troubled times as much as the good times.

[saralynn]

That is so true, so very true.

Life owes us nothing. We will take from it what we put into it.
I find myself thinking back when I was Frédéric's age... my energy was boundless, as was my naiveté, I was always broke and in and out of relationships. But I rarely complained, enjoying the troubled times as much as the good times.

You enjoyed the troubled times as much as the good times? Are you sure you are not making that assumption in retrospect?

Me... I found pleasure in Keats and Shelley, despite your assessment of the quality of their work. A bit presumptive of you, no?

[Iain Sparrow]

You enjoyed the troubled times as much as the good times? Are you sure you are not making that assumption in retrospect?

Me... I found pleasure in Keats and Shelley, despite your assessment of the quality of their work. A bit presumptive of you, no?

Yeah, some of it is perhaps sentimentality and a wistful forgetfulness of the bad times... but I never complained about the weather, and I've at least understood that it's the troubled times in our lives that give us appreciation for the good times.

And sorry, I really am not a fan of poetry.:)
To me poetry is like a shark circling a wounded seal... circling, circling, endlessly circling, and never going in for the kill. Poetry touches on real emotions, but never anything more than that. In my opinion.:)

[Frédéric Moreau]

Hello,

First of all excuse my previous rage, I was quite outraged and I couldn’t help to give vent to my chagrin. Now I am a little bit calmer. But yes, I am a square, I always have found it tiresome to be with people my age, at school I couldn’t mingle with anyone, given that all of them only liked to play football or other sports. I sat on a corner and devoted myself to read or to draw. I grew up thus without skills or interest on social relations. When the adolescence came everything turned worse: I felt quite lonesome and the necessity of a non-fraternal love became unbearable. I began High School blissfully though, I was quite thrilled, having just begun to earn money painting. I thought that at that High School I would find excellence and rigor, that every student would be devoted to learn and enjoy art; whereas, it seemed just the contrary, my class mates where mainly slackers that preferred painting to avoid math, and those who liked art where hatefully foppish and frivolous. Among them, a girl attracted my attention. She was rather sweet and well-mannered –though it couldn’t be said that she was quite good-looking, not objectively at all- , being her interest in art what made me fell in love with her. It may sound stupid, but thus it was. She was the only girl I met until then who liked art.

I started trying to take her out but all my efforts were in vain, therefore, I decided to declare my deep love. I said “I love you”, she replied “I am a lesbian”. And that was all, she, I don’t know why, refused to talk to me again. I began to drink and to skip class. I also stopped painting, I only drank. And in that way my adolescence developed, a period of awful pain and stupidity.

Fortunately, I finally decided to stop drinking and to start reading. I read with all of my might, I spent all the money I had buying books, they were –and are- my unique shelter. I think that even being on the bum I could be happy reading.

The problem is that girl, when I see her I cannot read for a couple of days.

Thank all of you for your care. Calidore says that I should change my character in order to enjoy real chances of taking her out. That is likely true, but I am not capable of changing my character. For me –despite the fact that I am not a religious person- clubbing is unmoral and horrid. I like to drink my café con leche peacefully seated in a terrace while reading the newspaper, sometimes talking with a friend about politics or literature.

He also mentions that I should widen my range of interests, but I want a girl to talk about something like literature or history, to discuss with her, for instance, the French Revolution.

About the Romantics, I like them quite much, Chateaubriand, Victor Hugo, Dumas, Poe, Goethe –oh, I read Werther-; but, like Conrad and Ian Sparrow, I only enjoy novels and theatre (with the exception of Jorge Manrique, John Milton and somebody else). But there is a book that helped me a lot, ‘The magic mountain’. I am almost equal to Hans Castorp, and I found its reflections about time –a topic that matters me a lot- , politics and love among the greatest ones in the history of literature.

I think that Ian Sparrow is right. That is what I am trying to do now (I took the exams of High School few months ago, but I failed Latin and Economy because I didn’t study and now I have to wait a year until the next exams), I hope to take the Certificate in Advance English in December and to do some course oriented towards translation, that would be the perfect job. But college seems horrible to me.

I have written quite much, thank you for your help and excuse my foolishness.

Frédéric

[YesNo]

Your signature containing Jorge Manrique's poem has got me interested in his poetry.

I hope the Mediterranean beaches don't depress you too much, but at your age you probably want to be away from your parents following your own dreams.

[Frédéric Moreau]

Your signature containing Jorge Manrique's poem has got me interested in his poetry.

It is the beginning of a masterpiece. Here it is the poem, 'Coplas a la muerte de su padre', translated into English (it is not the same as in Spanish, its beauty is partially lost because of the translation).

http://users.ipfw.edu/jehle/POESIA/COPLASEN.HTM

PS: It is a different translation than the one I have as sign.

[Frédéric Moreau]

There is also a sung version in Spanish, you may like it, in spite of the language.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWtSdFzaFTM

[YesNo]

I liked the way Paco Ibañez put that to music. An English translation should sound as good and use that melody as a test.

How were the Mediterranean beaches?

[Frédéric Moreau]

How were the Mediterranean beaches?

They weren't Mediterranean, Atlantic instead. I don't like beaches, though I understand that many people may love them. They are uncomfortable for me, I don't like to step on sand because it is very weary to walk.

[Frédéric Moreau]

I liked the way Paco Ibañez put that to music. An English translation should sound as good and use that melody as a test.

By the way, there is a song by Kris Kristofferson that you may like, I think that its lyrics are particularly extraordinary for a country tune (is it country?).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbqGWTxwZEA

[YesNo]

By the way, there is a song by Kris Kristofferson that you may like, I think that its lyrics are particularly extraordinary for a country tune (is it country?).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbqGWTxwZEA

That was a nice song. I'm not that familiar with Kris Kristofferson, but I do remember "Me and Bobby McGee" especially as Janis Joplin sang it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7CtqwyxHM0 I suppose this could be considered "country music", but I hadn't thought of it like that so much.

I don't know much about Spanish music, but I picked up a Melna Leon CD once and thought it was quite good. I realize this is probably music more from the Caribbean than Spain. Here's one song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRt5BaPHhMo

You're right about beaches. I don't see the point either, but I do like walking the trails in the woods above a beach and getting a better view.

[Frédéric Moreau]

That was a nice song. I'm not that familiar with Kris Kristofferson, but I do remember "Me and Bobby McGee" especially as Janis Joplin sang it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7CtqwyxHM0 I suppose this could be considered "country music", but I hadn't thought of it like that so much.

I don't know much about Spanish music, but I picked up a Melna Leon CD once and thought it was quite good. I realize this is probably music more from the Caribbean than Spain. Here's one song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRt5BaPHhMo

You're right about beaches. I don't see the point either, but I do like walking the trails in the woods above a beach and getting a better view.

Thank you very much for the song by Janis Joplin, her voice is amazing and the song superb. I agree with you regarding country music, there are so many current country songs that fit more pop. Recently I discovered Hank Williams Sr. and I like his songs a great deal.
This one is particularly brilliant:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19vApPwWqh8

You are right, that's more Caribbean than Spanish. Spain isn't a country famous for its musicians, though the architecture, paintings and literature are of a great quality. However, I like some Spanish contemporary singers:

Plácido Domingo and José Carreras: famous for being the Spanish part of 'The three tenors'. They have a lot of magnificent songs, but I would chose 'Granada' for being the more representative of Spain: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w608dT79BDE

Rocío Jurado: she was a legend. Her most known song is 'Como una ola' ('Like a wave'):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOb-DEZDY1Y

Ana Belén and Victor Manuel: 'La puerta the Alcalá'. The song is a light tour throughout the history of Spain since the building of the Gate of Alcalá: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tqvQEFmFSE

There are more singers, but I don't want to be tiresome.

Regards from Spain.

PS: As a funny note I add this song by Príncipe Gitano. It is said in Spain that it is a revenge against Elvis for singing 'Guadalajara' in a horrible Spanish. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1WMoPAALMQ

[YesNo]

Hank Williams Sr is a bit before my time. My sister's family likes country music although I don't listen to it that much. Jason Aldean's "When She Says Baby" might be worth listening to and is what I think country music should sound like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a89hagSQtRg There's also Luke Bryan, who's not as famous, but I've enjoyed the humor in "Drinkin Beer and Wastin Bullets": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axw3YwhZGfs

I liked Rocío Jurado's very powerful voice and the one song by Ana Belén and Victor Manuel. Principe Gitano did seem to butcher "In the Ghetto".