Psalm 137

[kev67]

Interesting Psalm, 137. It has inspired two pop songs. Boney M (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ybv4DOj-N0)'s version was number 1 for weeks. Don McLean (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTnspbSjKVc)'s version was probably more famous for the Mad Men (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0voSWdX4jo) cover.

I thought the Boney M lyric "Let the words of our mouths and the meditations of our hearts be acceptable in thy sight here tonight." was rather more Godly than the last two lines of the psalm. I wondered whether it was a direct criticism.

I once hear a choir sing this song on the radio, including the blood-curdling last two lines. It sounded brilliant. The preacher said something like the last lines were intended to bring you up short and make you think, but I don't buy it.

Psalm 137
By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
2 We hanged our harps upon the willows in the midst thereof.
3 For there they that carried us away captive required of us a song:
and they that wasted us required of us mirth, saying, Sing us one of the songs of Zion.
4 How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
5 If I forget thee O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning.
6 If I do not remember thee, let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth; if I prefer not Jerusalem above my chief joy.
7 Remember, O Lord, the children of Edom in the day of Jerusalem; who said Rase it, rase it, even to the foundation thereof.
8 O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou has served us.
9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

[cacian]

psqlm 137 is interesting but I am still not sure what it is actually trying to say.
zion is an interesting word etymologically. I have always thought zion is an African reference because of zaire/Zimbabwe/Zulus and so all words beginning with zi seems to refer to an African state/city.
now I found out it is in Jerusalem. and then it was sang but the Boney M when I first heard I thought also they were referring to a place in Africa.
anyway what is the actual Psalm trying to say?



I thought the Boney M lyric "Let the words of our mouths and the meditations of our hearts be acceptable in thy sight here tonight." was rather more Godly than the last two lines of the psalm. I wondered whether it was a direct criticism.
I thought it more of a statement/fact rather then a criticism.
what made you think that?
and
why do you describe the last two lines as blood curdling If I may ask? :)

[mal4mac]

The people of Jerusalem are looking forward to the day when their captors, the people of Babylon, will be destroyed, and hope to experience the happiness that God will feel as he dashes Babylonian children against stones. Indeed blood curdling! It brings me up short, and makes me glad I'm an atheist.

[cacian]

The people of Jerusalem are looking forward to the day when their captors, the people of Babylon, will be destroyed, and hope to experience the happiness that God will feel as he dashes Babylonian children against stones. Indeed blood curdling! It brings me up short, and makes me glad I'm an atheist.
I agree there is that element of destruction and hate even from those who have been destroyed to seek it on other is not religious.
there is no god for that.
religious myths are too bloody to be holy.

what does this mean?

8 O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed;

[Drkshadow03]

It's definitely a powerful poem in the way that it captures the anguish of being held captive/enslaved in a foreign land after the destruction of your homeland in war.

Cacian, the line in question is stating that one day Babylon (their captors) are destined to be destroyed.

[kev67]

I agree there is that element of destruction and hate even from those who have been destroyed to seek it on other is not religious.
there is no god for that.
religious myths are too bloody to be holy.

what does this mean?

I took the 'daughter of Babylon' to be some ordinary female citizen of Babylon. I think the writers of the psalm were hoping an army from Israel would come and free them and take their revenge on Babylon by razing it to the ground and slaughtering its citizens. The 'he' in the last line I took to mean a representative soldier in this Jewish army, who would murder the Babylonian woman's children.

I thought Zion was another name for Jerusalem, but I think it means Israel.

[Melanie]

Verses 8 and 9 only seem to contradict God’s holy and good character. This is not so. These verses are actually concerned with the opposite. God loves and blesses children.
Verses 8 & 9 are not saying God levied some horrific judgement on the Babylonians and and will be happy to see them massacre their own children, fulfilling God's revenge. No. These particular scripture verses are about Babylon’s future destruction…it's a a prediction. Old Hebrew texts are often prophetic. It's about how the results of the Babylonians horrific behavior would come back to bite them. "Life pays back", that is the law of life but that's not the law of the OT. When man disobeys God there are natural consequences brought on by man not by God.

[mal4mac]

Robert Alter, American professor of Hebrew language and comparative literature at the University of California, Berkeley says, “No moral justification can be offered for this notorious concluding line...”

[mal4mac]

"Life pays back", that is the law of life but that's not the law of the OT. When man disobeys God there are natural consequences brought on by man not by God.

So you repay child murder by child murder? That's not the law of life, it's the law of psychopaths.

[cacian]

The people of Jerusalem are looking forward to the day when their captors, the people of Babylon, will be destroyed, and hope to experience the happiness that God will feel as he dashes Babylonian children against stones. Indeed blood curdling! It brings me up short, and makes me glad I'm an atheist.
I missed this bit and I agree it makes one feel godless against such arrogance ill witted sense of being.

[cacian]

I took the 'daughter of Babylon' to be some ordinary female citizen of Babylon. I think the writers of the psalm were hoping an army from Israel would come and free them and take their revenge on Babylon by razing it to the ground and slaughtering its citizens. The 'he' in the last line I took to mean a representative soldier in this Jewish army, who would murder the Babylonian woman's children.
well why use daughter and not woman as a point of reference?
he I think refers to god. because is referred to in the masculine form.
the other thing is that it is controversial to include children in a destruction plot. this psalm is more then horrific.
to put it in a song even more so.


I thought Zion was another name for Jerusalem, but I think it means Israel.
zion sounds black African origin to me because the other words name I listed above. they seem to be similar but there you go.

[cacian]

Verses 8 and 9 only seem to contradict God’s holy and good character. This is not so. These verses are actually concerned with the opposite. God loves and blesses children.
Verses 8 & 9 are not saying God levied some horrific judgement on the Babylonians and and will be happy to see them massacre their own children, fulfilling God's revenge. No. These particular scripture verses are about Babylon’s future destruction…it's a a prediction. Old Hebrew texts are often prophetic. It's about how the results of the Babylonians horrific behavior would come back to bite them. "Life pays back", that is the law of life but that's not the law of the OT. When man disobeys God there are natural consequences brought on by man not by God.

but 4 seems to contradict what you have just said


4 How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land
and then

8 happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou has served us.

the lord is therein implied as the he is it not?
this psalm is more then blood shed thirsty if women and children massacre is at the center of such reward.

[Drkshadow03]

the lord is therein implied as the he is it not?
this psalm is more then blood shed thirsty if women and children massacre is at the center of such reward.

Not necessarily. Some translations don't use "he," but rather they use "those" or "the ones." It could mean a general "he" standing-in for any person. Consider the phrase "all men are mortal" in which "men" are a stand-in for all humans. It depends what the actual Hebrew says.

[PeterL]

Interesting Psalm, 137. It has inspired two pop songs. Boney M (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ybv4DOj-N0)'s version was number 1 for weeks. Don McLean (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTnspbSjKVc)'s version was probably more famous for the Mad Men (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0voSWdX4jo) cover.

I thought the Boney M lyric "Let the words of our mouths and the meditations of our hearts be acceptable in thy sight here tonight." was rather more Godly than the last two lines of the psalm. I wondered whether it was a direct criticism.

I once hear a choir sing this song on the radio, including the blood-curdling last two lines. It sounded brilliant. The preacher said something like the last lines were intended to bring you up short and make you think, but I don't buy it.

Psalm 137
By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
2 We hanged our harps upon the willows in the midst thereof.
3 For there they that carried us away captive required of us a song:
and they that wasted us required of us mirth, saying, Sing us one of the songs of Zion.
4 How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
5 If I forget thee O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning.
6 If I do not remember thee, let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth; if I prefer not Jerusalem above my chief joy.
7 Remember, O Lord, the children of Edom in the day of Jerusalem; who said Rase it, rase it, even to the foundation thereof.
8 O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou has served us.
9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth they little ones against the stones.


The version by the Melodians is vastly superior. It is the version that was in "Ther Harder They Come".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-5E6_qtXAw

[kev67]

The version by the Melodians is vastly superior. It is the version that was in "Ther Harder They Come".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-5E6_qtXAw

That is very interesting. I did not know the Boney M version was a cover. The wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rivers_of_Babylon) is interesting too.

The line, "Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in thy sight..." comes from Psalm 19:14.

Maybe the reason cacian associates Zion with Africa is because both Zion and Babylon are terms associated with Rastafarianism.

Brent Dowe, the lead singer of the Melodians, told Kenneth Bilby that he had adapted Psalm 137 to the new reggae style because he wanted to increase the public's consciousness of the growing Rastafarian movement and its calls for black liberation and social justice. Like the Afro-Protestant Revival services, traditional Rastafarian worship often included psalm singing and hymn singing, and Rastas typically modified the words to fit their own spiritual conceptions; Psalm 137 was among their sacred chants.

[Melanie]

Verses 8 and 9 only seem to contradict God’s holy and good character. This is not so. These verses are actually concerned with the opposite. God loves and blesses children.
Verses 8 & 9 are not saying God levied some horrific judgement on the Babylonians and and will be happy to see them massacre their own children, fulfilling God's revenge. No. These particular scripture verses are about Babylon’s future destruction…it's a a prediction. Old Hebrew texts are often prophetic. It's about how the results of the Babylonians horrific behavior would come back to bite them. "Life pays back", that is the law of life but that's not the law of the OT. When man disobeys God there are natural consequences brought on by man not by God.
Cacian…regarding verse 4…another word for "Lord's songs" is "hymn". The captive Jews in a foreign land did not want to sing their sacred hymns for fear of being ridiculed by the gentiles.
regarding verse 8…as horrible as the atrocities of ancient Babylonian warfare were, this prophecy (which history says was fulfilled) is referring to the many who would be happy for the world's welfare that Babylon, who has for years slaughtered many nations without mercy, had not omitted their own offspring in it's massacres and therefore did not spare themselves…leaving the world a safer place. A safer place is what made God happy, not the sins of Babylon.
mal4mac…God agrees that there is "no moral justification" for the Babylonians barbarous behavior of killing their own children as mentioned in the concluding line. The Babylonians felt they needed to make their provisions last longer in battle so they cut off all unnecessary mouths among them including the children they deemed useless for war. It was their own choice, that of the Babylonians themselves, not something God asked them to do.

[cacian]

Cacian…regarding verse 4…another word for "Lord's songs" is "hymn". The captive Jews in a foreign land did not want to sing their sacred hymns for fear of being ridiculed by the gentiles.
regarding verse 8…as horrible as the atrocities of ancient Babylonian warfare were, this prophecy (which history says was fulfilled) is referring to the many who would be happy for the world's welfare that Babylon, who has for years slaughtered many nations without mercy, had not omitted their own offspring in it's massacres and therefore did not spare themselves…leaving the world a safer place. A safer place is what made God happy, not the sins of Babylon.
mal4mac…God agrees that there is "no moral justification" for the Babylonians barbarous behavior of killing their own children as mentioned in the concluding line. The Babylonians felt they needed to make their provisions last longer in battle so they cut off all necessary mouths among them including the children they deemed useless for war.
what a dim group of people they were. you would have thought they would have gotten riden of themselves first adults take/consumes more then a child.
the other thing to kill a child to protect oneself is to leave yourself open to no generation to follow.
either way the decision is senseless and extremely short for brain. not a very bright lot to be chanting about.

[Melanie]

Correction: my last sentence in post #16 says "they cut off all necessary mouths"…it should say all UNnecessary mouths".

[cacian]

Not necessarily. Some translations don't use "he," but rather they use "those" or "the ones." It could mean a general "he" standing-in for any person. Consider the phrase "all men are mortal" in which "men" are a stand-in for all humans. It depends what the actual Hebrew says.

I am not sure because normally in any psalm/prayer a he is usually a reference to god.
I find the details lacking because on a one hand it is specific with words such Babylon/zion/daughter/edom and then suddenly there is this sudden use of he??
either that or the he is a culprit a menaced figure that thinks power and hence created this psalm. in other words the voice author behind it who else?

who says ''all men are mortal''?

[Drkshadow03]

I am not sure because normally in any psalm/prayer a he is usually a reference to god.
I find the details lacking because on a one hand it is specific with words such Babylon/zion/daughter/edom and then suddenly there is this sudden use of he??
either that or he is a culprit a menaced figure that thinks power and hence created this psalm. in other words the voice author.
voice behind it who else?

who says ''all men are mortal''?

Usually if G-d is meant, the "he" will be capitalized. I'm not really following what you're trying to say after that . . .

[cacian]

Usually if G-d is meant, the "he" will be capitalized. I'm not really following what you're trying to say after that . . .
sorry what I meant is perhaps the he refers to the author who wrote this psalm.
there is a responsibility towards literary materials they belong to the person who wrote them. there is subjectivity inferred with them. one writes because one believes.
there reason I say this is that Bewolf comes to mind. I think he is also used there. or is a they??

[cacian]

Correction: my last sentence in post #16 says "they cut off all necessary mouths"…it should say all UNnecessary mouths".

necessary mouth sounds better.

[Melanie]

Barne's Notes, a well known unbiased commentary, says that "he" mentioned in verse 9 is anyone who would be instrumental in stopping Babylon, who had for years slaughtered many nations without mercy. He would be happy because it would make the world a safer place. "He" was not God.

[PeterL]

That is very interesting. I did not know the Boney M version was a cover. The wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rivers_of_Babylon) is interesting too.

The line, "Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in thy sight..." comes from Psalm 19:14.

Maybe the reason cacian associates Zion with Africa is because both Zion and Babylon are terms associated with Rastafarianism.

Brent Dowe, the lead singer of the Melodians, told Kenneth Bilby that he had adapted Psalm 137 to the new reggae style because he wanted to increase the public's consciousness of the growing Rastafarian movement and its calls for black liberation and social justice. Like the Afro-Protestant Revival services, traditional Rastafarian worship often included psalm singing and hymn singing, and Rastas typically modified the words to fit their own spiritual conceptions; Psalm 137 was among their sacred chants.

The song was put together from those two psalms. I think the Melodians did a much better job.

The Rastafarians are also from Africa. One of my Ethiopian acquaintances says that there are many Rastafarians wandering around there. Don't forget that Ras Tafari (Tafari Makonnen Woldemikae) certainly was an Ethiopian; he took the name Haile Selassie when he became emperor.

[mortalterror]

This plaintive ode is one of the most charming compositions in the whole Book of Psalms for its poetic power. If it were not inspired it would nevertheless occupy a high place in poesy, especially the former portion of it, which is tender and patriotic to the highest degree. In the later verses ( Psalms 137:7-9 ), we have utterances of burning indignation against the chief adversaries of Israel, -- an indignation as righteous as it was fervent. Let those find fault with it who have never seen their temple burned, their city ruined, their wives ravished, and after children slain; they might not, perhaps, be quite so velvet mouthed if they had suffered after this fashion. It is one thing to talk of the bitter feeling which moved captive Israelites in Babylon, and quite another thing to be captives ourselves under a savage and remorseless power, which knew not how to show mercy, but delighted in barbarities to the defenceless. The song is such as might fitly be sung in the Jews' wailing place. It is a fruit of the Captivity in Babylon, and often has it furnished expression for sorrows which else had been unutterable. It is an opalesque Psalm within whose mild radiance there glows afire which strikes the beholder with wonder. - Bible Study Tools http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/treasury-of-david/psalms-137-1.html

There is no use in stringing out the details. The earl put us up and sold us at auction. This same infernal law had existed in our own South in my own time, more than thirteen hundred years later, and under it hundreds of freemen who could not prove that they were freemen had been sold into lifelong slavery without the circumstance making any particular impression upon me; but the minute law and the auction block came into my personal experience, a thing which had been merely improper before became suddenly hellish.
-A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court http://www.gutenberg.org/files/86/86-h/86-h.htm#c34

[mal4mac]

Here's Alter’s translation of the last few lines:

Daughter of Babylon the despoiler,
happy who pays you back in kind,
for what you did to us.
Happy who seizes and smashes
your infants against the rock.

Alter comments that the psalm ‘ends with this bloodcurdling curse pronounced on their captors'. So it's not a prediction, it is a curse, according to Alter. It certainly looks like a curse!

[kev67]

The song was put together from those two psalms. I think the Melodians did a much better job.

The Rastafarians are also from Africa. One of my Ethiopian acquaintances says that there are many Rastafarians wandering around there. Don't forget that Ras Tafari (Tafari Makonnen Woldemikae) certainly was an Ethiopian; he took the name Haile Selassie when he became emperor.


The fact that the Boney M version was a cover answers a few other questions. I had thought when I was younger that it was some sort of slave spiritual song. That was before I knew Boney M was a fabricated band run by a German producer cum song writer. Rivers of Babylon was by far Boney M's greatest hit, but it seened rather different to all their other hits like Ma Baker, Rasputin and Daddy Cool. I was crediting Boney M and their producer with too much intelligence in substituting the "Let the words of our mouths and the meditation of our hearts be acceptable in your sight..." lyric for the indefensible last two verses. I suppose I have to credit The Melodians for knowing the psalms well enough to do that.

[Fantods1]

This may not have much bearing on the conversation but TS Eliot quoted this psalm in the Waste Land and wrote about it extensively in his journals during the writing of the Waste Land.

[mona amon]

regarding verse 8…as horrible as the atrocities of ancient Babylonian warfare were, this prophecy (which history says was fulfilled) is referring to the many who would be happy for the world's welfare that Babylon, who has for years slaughtered many nations without mercy, had not omitted their own offspring in it's massacres and therefore did not spare themselves…leaving the world a safer place. A safer place is what made God happy, not the sins of Babylon.
mal4mac…God agrees that there is "no moral justification" for the Babylonians barbarous behavior of killing their own children as mentioned in the concluding line. The Babylonians felt they needed to make their provisions last longer in battle so they cut off all unnecessary mouths among them including the children they deemed useless for war. It was their own choice, that of the Babylonians themselves, not something God asked them to do.

Melanie, I think you are bending over backwards trying to give a (as it turns out, perfectly idiotic) justification for something that needs no justification in the first place. This is the Robert Alter quote - “No moral justification can be offered for this notorious concluding line. All one can do is to recall the background of outraged feeling that triggers the conclusion: The Babylonians have laid waste to Jerusalem, exiled much of its population, looted and massacred; the powerless captives, ordered – perhaps mockingly – to sing their Zion songs, respond instead with a lament that is not really a song and ends with this bloodcurdling curse pronounced on their captors, who, fortunately, do not understand the Hebrew in which it is pronounced.” It is useless to try and justify (or condemn) elemental emotions and instincts. They are there whether we like it or not.

[mona amon]

Interesting Psalm, 137. It has inspired two pop songs. Boney M (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ybv4DOj-N0)'s version was number 1 for weeks. Don McLean (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTnspbSjKVc)'s version was probably more famous for the Mad Men (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0voSWdX4jo) cover.

I thought the Boney M lyric "Let the words of our mouths and the meditations of our hearts be acceptable in thy sight here tonight." was rather more Godly than the last two lines of the psalm. I wondered whether it was a direct criticism.

I once hear a choir sing this song on the radio, including the blood-curdling last two lines. It sounded brilliant. The preacher said something like the last lines were intended to bring you up short and make you think, but I don't buy it.

I don't buy it either. The psalmist is obviously trying to express his feelings here, not trying to manipulate the audience with shock and awe, though that may be the effect it has on us. It brings us up short, and does make us think, even if that was not the psalmist's intent. His feelings are strong, the lines are raw and emotional. It goes from being a mournful lament to a cry for vengeance of a most appalling kind in one shocking leap, and all the elements add up in making the psalm so powerful and beautiful.

[cacian]

I don't buy it either. The psalmist is obviously trying to express his feelings here, not trying to manipulate the audience with shock and awe, though that may be the effect it has on us. It brings us up short, and does make us think, even if that was not the psalmist's intent. His feelings are strong, the lines are raw and emotional. It goes from being a mournful lament to a cry for vengeance of a most appalling kind in one shocking leap, and all the elements add up in making the psalm so powerful and beautiful.
I can't say I can see beauty in this psalm. it is irreversibly ill meant in its content there is no feeling but despair.
but that is view on it:)

[Melanie]

Melanie, I think you are bending over backwards trying to give a (as it turns out, perfectly idiotic) justification
Thank you.

[mona amon]

Thank you.

OK that was rude. I'm really sorry! :blush:

[Melanie]

*handshake*…you can tell we're women. Guys would just say "stuff it" and head off to the pub for a couple of beers.

[Jackson Richardson]

The most famous musical use of this psalm is in Verdi's early opera Nabucco. The chorus of the Hebrew slaves Va pensiero was one of his earliest hits and the crowds sung it spontaneously when his coffin was carried to it final resting place.

The last verse is not saying what God wants. It expresses the hatred of the enslaved Israelites for the political power that had destroyed their country. It is highly embarrassing to have it the Bible, but I'm afraid victims often feel that way. In the context of the Christian Bible as a whole, it is clearly not the attitude of God.

[cacian]

The most famous musical use of this psalm is in Verdi's early opera Nabucco. The chorus of the Hebrew slaves Va pensiero was one of his earliest hits and the crowds sung it spontaneously when his coffin was carried to it final resting place.

The last verse is not saying what God wants. It expresses the hatred of the enslaved Israelites for the political power that had destroyed their country. It is highly embarrassing to have it the Bible, but I'm afraid victims often feel that way. In the context of the Christian Bible as a whole, it is clearly not the attitude of God.

victims my feel the anguish but do not often wish to terminate their own flesh ad blood especially children.
the only other time I am aware of this kind od lunacy are the incas.

[Jackson Richardson]

victims my feel the anguish but do not often wish to terminate their own flesh ad blood especially children.
the only other time I am aware of this kind od lunacy are the incas.


It is not their own flesh and blood they wish to see killed but the children of their oppressors.

Tabloid newspapers often have the relations of murder victims calling for a return of the death penalty, I am very sorry to say.

[cacian]

It is not their own flesh and blood they wish to see killed but the children of their oppressors.

children are children it is still abominable.


Tabloid newspapers often have the relations of murder victims calling for a return of the death penalty, I am very sorry to say.
I am sure they do which means more stuff for them to fill in and get a tabloid hit.
the media in the spot hugging news at the xpense of victims again is not something new. money money money is what it is all about.