religious characters in Literature

[cacian]

the first one that springs to mind from
Pride and Prejudice
the cousin of Elizabeth Bennett. Mr Collins not the most religious but the most applied one.

[PeterL]

It depends on what you mean by "religious". General King Dick in Lydia Bailey is religious in a way. The first main character in literature, Gilgamesh, was quite religious, andthe tradition of having religious main characters has been common.

Don't forget Miss Lonelyhearts.

[Whosis]

Casey Jones from The Grapes of Wrath--religious. Casey Jones from Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles--not as religious.

[ladderandbucket]

Flannery O'Connor must have written some of the best religious characters in every sense of the word. I nominate Hazel Motes from Wise Blood and Francis Tarwater from The Violent Bear It Away.

[cacian]

Casey Jones from The Grapes of Wrath--religious. Casey Jones from Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles--not as religious.

I did not know there two Caseys. it is irritable when the same name carries over in another story.

[TheFifthElement]

John Ames from Gilead. One of the most beautiful books ever written.

[free]

Goldmund in Hesse's Narcissus and Goldmund; the old man Zosima in Dostoevsky's The Brothers Karamazov. I haven't read these books recently, but the pictures of these two characters from them have ramined in my memory as someones very wise and tender at the same time. They seem to me like embodyment of a pure religiosity.

[Lokasenna]

As a mythologist, most of the characters in the things I read are gods... not that you'd want to worship any of them.

[mal4mac]

There's often a vicar in Victorian novels, usually the upper middle class twit who is too thick for academia, and too cowardly for the army. He's often "a looker", and because he has money, a respected job, and surface charm, he is often set up as the main opposition to the hero in pursuit of the heroine. The vicar in "Under the Greenwood Tree" by Thomas Hardy is a typical example - a modernising, meddling, fool who's more interested in chasing skirt than leading his flock. For instance, he tries to replace the string players in church by an organist (i.e., the heroine) thereby showing he's tone deaf, ignorant of tradition, stomps on parishioners, and is sex obsessed. This really gets us rooting for the hero!

[cacian]

Goldmund in Hesse's Narcissus and Goldmund; the old man Zosima in Dostoevsky's The Brothers Karamazov. I haven't read these books recently, but the pictures of these two characters from them have ramined in my memory as someones very wise and tender at the same time. They seem to me like embodyment of a pure religiosity.

I find the names alone rather fascinating.
in what way have they ramined?

[cacian]

There's often a vicar in Victorian novels, usually the upper middle class twit who is too thick for academia, and too cowardly for the army. He's often "a looker", and because he has money, a respected job, and surface charm, he is often set up as the main opposition to the hero in pursuit of the heroine. The vicar in "Under the Greenwood Tree" by Thomas Hardy is a typical example - a modernising, meddling, fool who's more interested in chasing skirt than leading his flock. For instance, he tries to replace the string players in church by an organist (i.e., the heroine) thereby showing he's tone deaf, ignorant of tradition, stomps on parishioners, and is sex obsessed. This really gets us rooting for the hero!

a vicar under a dress is anything but godly. you would imagine abstinence has an effect and is long wining to the most unthinkable places.

[kev67]

The Tibetan lama in Kim is very religious. Henry James commended Rudyard Kipling on his credibility.

[Paulclem]

Casey Jones from The Grapes of Wrath--religious. Casey Jones from Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles--not as religious.

there's also Casey Jones the train driver. he didn't seem that religious either when he was steamin' and a rollin'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ig3GcDBjQN4

[Poetaster]

Would Dante be a candidate?

[cacian]

Would Dante be a candidate?

absolutely and the best one by far. it is like reading the bible only in reverse.

[Poetaster]

absolutely and the best one by far. it is like reading the bible only in reverse.

How? Why do you say that?

[Jackson Richardson]

George Eliot was an atheist, or at least an agnostic. All her novels include a strong religious element, which is never portrayed negatively. Dinah Morris, the Methodist preacher, in her first success, Adam Bede who ministers to Hetty Sorrel when condemned to death is only the most obvious one. Mr Casaubon in Middlemarch is certainly regarded critically, but Dorothea only marries him in the first place because of her religious ideals.

Jane Austen certainly regards Mr Collins as a fool, but she assumes any decent character will be seriously religious. She said the subject of Mansfield Park was "ordination". Three of her six heroines end up marrying clergymen - in Northanger Abbey, Sense and Sensibility and Mansfield Park.

Actually, the question in the title makes as much sense as asking for characters in literature who are sexual, social or political.

[cacian]

How? Why do you say that?

How?
Dante is about Hell and Paradise.
he starts of with hell and then descent to paradise.

the bible says if you sin you go to hell
and if you don't you got to heaven

in Dante he goes to hell to go to paradise.
that is reversed psychology
hence the bible in reverse
meaning
you have to sin first then you go to heaven.


from my part I call it a quit because I understand the gist.
I do neither is the best policy and Dante's written itself of.
Literature is great 'the hand that rocks the cradle' comes to mind
do you know it?

[Poetaster]

How?
Dante is about Hell and Paradise.
he starts of with hell and then descent to paradise.

the bible says if you sin you go to hell
and if you don't you got to heaven

in Dante he goes to hell to go to paradise.
that is reversed psychology
hence the bible in reverse
meaning
you have to sin first then you go to heaven.

The bible doesn't have the same sort of structure that Dante's poem does. And there is a reason Dante goes to hell, just as there is a reason he is escorted by Virgil up to a certain point, about the end of the second book. It's just before Dante leaves earth. The two in this sense have nothing to do with each other, they are certainly not reflections of the other as you seem to think they are.

[cacian]

The bible doesn't have the same sort of structure that Dante's poem does. And there is a reason Dante goes to hell, just as there is a reason he is escorted by Virgil up to a certain point, about the end of the second book. It's just before Dante leaves earth. The two in this sense have nothing to do with each other, they are certainly not reflections of the other as you seem to think they are.

really?
heaven and hell
good and bad
is a bible concept
the concept of duality starts with the bible.
Dante is conflict duality curse and the bible is too.
I think they are very related.

[Poetaster]

really?
heaven and hell
good and bad
is a bible concept
the concept of duality starts with the bible.
Dante is conflict duality curse and the bible is too.
I think they are very related.

Well, considering in Dante there is a third 'world', Mt. Purgatory, I'd say it sounds like you've never actually read Dante enough to talk about his work. Dante isn't about a conflicting duality, unless you are looking at the political inspiration of The Comedy, and even then I think Dante presents a third political option - but that's getting very technical. In Dante, Hell is a part of the greater system, it's certainly not in conflict with heaven at all; all sin is punished by the good. It's not a conflict when one side is utterly helpless.

[cacian]

Well, considering in Dante there is a third 'world', Mt. Purgatory, I'd say it sounds like you've never actually read Dante enough to talk about his work. Dante isn't about a conflicting duality, unless you are looking at the political inspiration of The Comedy, and even then I think Dante presents a third political option - but that's getting very technical. In Dante, Hell is a part of the greater system, it's certainly not in conflict with heaven at all; all sin is punished by the good. It's not a conflict when one side is utterly helpless.

I am well read of Dante.
here is a question:
would Dante have written itself if the bible was not?
in other words would it have made sense to you or me had it not been for the bible? I think you would find that the answer is no. absolutely not.
the purgatory is a confession booth style. confess and then esk.
how shall i say it? it is very Lancelot and knight Templar ish . they too relate to the bible.
Dante is a like a book of a passage it reminds of the Pharoahs and their afterlives anthologies. they believed in it and so did Dante or the story of it.
nothing gets written for nothing, it all serves a purpose or at least what is thought of it to be.

[Poetaster]

would Dante have written itself if the bible was not?
in other words would it have made sense to you or me had it not been for the bible? I think you would is no. absolutely not.

I'm having a hard time working out what this question even is. Dante was a Christian, but he was inspired by Virgil and Aeneas's journey into the underworld. If I understand your question then I'd say I don't happen to be able to see into other universes where the bible was never compiled.



the purgatory is a confession booth style. confess and then esk.

Not in Dante. In Dante Purgatory is something else entirely.


how shall i say it? it is very Lancelot and knight Templar ish . they too relate to the bible.

Again, Dante was a Christian. Relating to and taking direct influence from are two completely different things. It was Dante who invented the idea of a leveled, ordered Hell.


Dante is a like a book of a passage it reminds of the Pharoahs and their afterlives anthologies. they believed in it and so did Dante or the story of it.
nothing gets written for nothing, it all serves a purpose or at least what is thought of it to be.

I don't think Dante thought the afterlife was literally what he wrote in his Commedia.

[cacian]

QUOTE=Poetaster;1259605]I'm having a hard time working out what this question even is. Dante was a Christian, but he was inspired by Virgil and Aeneas's journey into the underworld. If I understand your question then I'd say I don't happen to be able to see into other universes where the bible was never compiled.

the question is simply asking
which came first the bible or Dante?
the answer is obvious. Dante came second and therefore what is told in this epic is reliant on the bible.
Hell Paradise Purgatory Comedy are all symptomatic or relevant the bible.
take the bible out and Dante is out too.
and yes there is no other universe but the one the bible was compiled for. this is the onlyuniverse as we know it and therefore Dante latches on the opportunity to extend on it like hell on earth.
so you are right there.



Again, Dante was a Christian. Relating to and taking direct influence from are two completely different things. It was Dante who invented the idea of a leveled, ordered Hell.
Christianity is neither here or there.
there is no ordered hell what there is ordered ideologies using hell to suspend them is what Dante is about.
what Dante is suggesting is to go through hell to realise Paradise.
Purgatory would be the matrimony of the two. ideally you sin then purge then enter paradise.
crazy stuff.

I don't think Dante thought the afterlife was literally what he wrote in his Commedia.
I think you would find he did hence the word comedy meaning.

comme means like
dia means said/told
like it was told referring to the bible.
or
comme /hear
dia means say
hearsay
like it was told or said with reference to the bible.

Shakespearean in style but doomed for miles.

[Poetaster]

the question is simply asking
which came first the bible or Dante?
the answer is obvious. Dante came second and therefore what is told in this epic is reliant on the bible.
Hell Paradise Purgatory Comedy are all symptomatic or relevant the bible.
take the bible out and Dante is out too.
and yes there is no other universe but the one the bible was compiled for. this is the onlyuniverse as we know it and therefore Dante latches on the opportunity to extend on it like hell on earth.
so you are right there.

As I said, Dante was a Christian, but relating to and taking direct influence from are not the same thing.


Christianity is neither here or there.
there is no ordered hell what there is ordered ideologies using hell to suspend them is what Dante is about.
what Dante is suggesting is to go through hell to realise Paradise.
Purgatory would be the matrimony of the two. ideally you sin then purge then enter paradise.
crazy stuff.

The second half is right, the first is just words.


I think you would find he did hence the word comedy meaning.

comme means like
dia means said/told
like it was told referring to the bible.
or
comme /hear
dia means say
hearsay
like it was told or said with reference to the bible.

Shakespearean in style but doomed for miles.

I think you'll find he didn't, because the word 'comedy' for Dante comes from the Greek drama genre, a play that ends in celebration. Knowledge of the solar system at Dante's time was more accurate than what's found in Dante, that bit is for poetry.

It is clear you have not read the poem very extensively.

[mona amon]

The Archbishop in Les Miserables and Alyosha in The Brothers Karamazov are two genuinely religious and appealing characters. Quite difficult to carry off without making the character unbearably annoying, I should imagine.

[free]

I find the names alone rather fascinating.
in what way have they ramined?

Excuse me, it was a typing mistake. Should be: 'have remained'. :)

[Lokasenna]

Poetaster, I salute your stamina and rigour - it greatly does you credit. But let an old-hand tell you that, like Sisyphus, you ain't never gonna push that particular stone to the top of the hill and make it stick.

[cacian]

Excuse me, it was a typing mistake. Should be: 'have remained'. :)

I rather like ramined. :D

[cacian]

As I said, Dante was a Christian, but relating to and taking direct influence from are not the same thing.



The second half is right, the first is just words.



I think you'll find he didn't, because the word 'comedy' for Dante comes from the Greek drama genre, a play that ends in celebration. Knowledge of the solar system at Dante's time was more accurate than what's found in Dante, that bit is for poetry.

It is clear you have not read the poem very extensively.

in all literature that we read or come cross must we all see it the same way? is this the point of reading literature?
different variations and understanding account for something. it is not a black and white affair. after all Dante does not give a prior explanation to why the comedy is written the way it is.
when I second read it I saw things different from what you are suggesting.
If I am wrong then so be it but that is how I interpret it.

let me ask you this:
where do you think the influence of writing The Comedy came from?

[PeterL]

the question is simply asking
which came first the bible or Dante?
the answer is obvious. Dante came second and therefore what is told in this epic is reliant on the bible.
Hell Paradise Purgatory Comedy are all symptomatic or relevant the bible.
take the bible out and Dante is out too.
and yes there is no other universe but the one the bible was compiled for. this is the onlyuniverse as we know it and therefore Dante latches on the opportunity to extend on it like hell on earth.
so you are right there.



Christianity is neither here or there.
there is no ordered hell what there is ordered ideologies using hell to suspend them is what Dante is about.
what Dante is suggesting is to go through hell to realise Paradise.
Purgatory would be the matrimony of the two. ideally you sin then purge then enter paradise.
crazy stuff.

I think you would find he did hence the word comedy meaning.

comme means like
dia means said/told
like it was told referring to the bible.
or
comme /hear
dia means say
hearsay
like it was told or said with reference to the bible.

Shakespearean in style but doomed for miles.


I like your thought, and I would like to add that Dante took a substantial part of his material from Virgil's Aeneid. Dante's descrption og Hell was largely copied from Book 6 of the Aeneid. Dante added details to make it Christian and to make the points that he wanted to make.

Without the Bible The Divine Comedy would not have been written, but Dante probably would have written something based on a different religion.

[Poetaster]

Poetaster, I salute your stamina and rigour - it greatly does you credit. But let an old-hand tell you that, like Sisyphus, you ain't never gonna push that particular stone to the top of the hill and make it stick.

Good idea, makes sense.

[cacian]

I like your thought, and I would like to add that Dante took a substantial part of his material from Virgil's Aeneid. Dante's descrption og Hell was largely copied from Book 6 of the Aeneid. Dante added details to make it Christian and to make the points that he wanted to make.

that is interesting. I did not realise that copying at this scale was acceptable.


Without the Bible The Divine Comedy would not have been written, but Dante probably would have written something based on a different religion.
agreed the word Divine is an indication in itself.

[PeterL]

that is interesting. I did not realise that copying at scale was acceptable.



By "copy" I didnb't mean word for word, but many of the characters in Hell were in Hades before, Minos, Charon, and Geryon for examples. The different sections for different sorts of souls was also from the Ancients. Dante added a lot of Christian mythology, and Hades had been a temporary place for most souls, because they would drink fromthe Lethe, and then they would be ready to be born into another person. The Aeneid is worth reading.

[Jackson Richardson]

I find it really odd to compare the Bible to Dante’s Commedia.

Dante was one man writing a single work in a consistent metric pattern with a unified narrative and consistent, if complex, view of the nature of existence. He wrote it within the period of a few years.

The Bible is a library of books in a large variety of genres, written over a couple of thousand years in at least two languages by a large number of people with different approaches to their understanding of God. Even when you have three works using common material and with the same basic narrative (ie Matthew, Mark and Luke) commentators notice that each has an individual slant – (Matthew – Jewish, Luke – Greek, Mark – existential).

Matthew and Revelation are the only two books of the New Testament to make extensive references to Hell. In the Old Testament, Hell is Sheol, which is not a place specifically of punishment, rather a metaphor for the state of being dead.

[cacian]

I find it really odd to compare the Bible to Dante’s Commedia.

Dante was one man writing a single work in a consistent metric pattern with a unified narrative and consistent, if complex, view of the nature of existence. He wrote it within the period of a few years.

The Bible is a library of books in a large variety of genres, written over a couple of thousand years in at least two languages by a large number of people with different approaches to their understanding of God. Even when you have three works using common material and with the same basic narrative (ie Matthew, Mark and Luke) commentators notice that each has an individual slant – (Matthew – Jewish, Luke – Greek, Mark – existential).

Matthew and Revelation are the only two books of the New Testament to make extensive references to Hell. In the Old Testament, Hell is Sheol, which is not a place specifically of punishment, rather a metaphor for the state of being dead.

and what do you say about the book of revelation?

[Jackson Richardson]

I said it was the only book other than Matthew to make any extensive reference to hell. The Hebrew Scriptures (ie the Old Testament) doesn't envisage any life after death, except in a few passages in Daniel and Isaiah were it is not a punishment.

The doctrine of Purgatory is not explicit in the Bible. Indeed many protestants would claim it is denied.

[luhsun]

Salvor hardin during the second seldon crisis

[luhsun]

Re: the dante controversy... do remember before sisyphus was eternally punished, he had tricked many a gods, including his way out of hell (how coincidental!). Poetaster gonna make it!

[ennison]

Orpheus did it "almost" so why not him? Do you mistrust his trickery? Strange the questions folk ask here!

[luhsun]

Orpheus played moving music, not trickery. He was instead tricked to turn his head and lost his lover forever(even though he was warned not to, the cards were stacked against him..hades, like most lawyers always win via the small prints)

[luhsun]

Odysseus walked in and out of hell, and heck, heracles even dragged away hell's guard dog

[Gilliatt Gurgle]

How about the Friar from Chaucer's The Canterbury Tales among a few others.
Father Pirrone in Lampedusa's The Leopard

[cacian]

Re: the dante controversy... do remember before sisyphus was eternally punished, he had tricked many a gods, including his way out of hell (how coincidental!). Poetaster gonna make it!
the thing with sisyphus is this:
here is the myth

In Greek mythology Sisyphus was a king of Ephyra (now known as Corinth) punished for chronic deceitfulness by being compelled to roll an immense boulder up a hill, only to watch it roll back down, and to repeat this action forever.I personally would have kicked it down the other side of the hill and got done with it.

[luhsun]

But if you delve deeper, the chronic deceitfulness was not the major issue, definitely not resulting in his unusual punishment. Rather it was the impiety against the gods..including cheating death, and imprisoning thanatos until no one could die, making ares upset because the god of war could no longer have the fun to kill anyone etc. The story was Sisyphus was punished to roll up the boulder forever..but that is the version of the victors... my belief is that the gods could not make him do so forever. The gods could only sabotage him by making the boulder always roll down. It is the determination and willpower of sisyphus to doggedly persist with the hope one day, the gods would make a mistake and let him triumph yet again.

[cacian]

But if you delve deeper, the chronic deceitfulness was not the major issue, definitely not resulting in his unusual punishment. Rather it was the impiety against the gods..including cheating death, and imprisoning thanatos until no one could die, making ares upset because the god of war could no longer have the fun to kill anyone etc. The story was Sisyphus was punished to roll up the boulder forever..but that is the version of the victors... my belief is that the gods could not make him do so forever. The gods could only sabotage him by making the boulder always roll down. It is the determination and willpower of sisyphus to doggedly persist with the hope one day, the gods would make a mistake and let him triumph yet again.

it is the word triumph that I do not get. why does sisyphus needs triumph?

[luhsun]

Psychologically his driving force is hubris. To cheat his fellow men, the gods, even death, even believing he was cleverer than zeus. I believe he would not give up even with the boulder, because that is his whole raison d'etre, even when dead. To defeat the boulder punishment set by zeus would show he was cleverer than zeus. And id you believe that human traits like hubris breeds true, his grandson was bellerophon who tried to ride pegasus to mt olympus and was also punished by zeus.

[sandy14]

Confessions of a Justified Sinner springs to mind. Here you have a Calvinist family exploited by a wandering satan. Hogg critiques predestination and provides a sinister, spooky story to boot.

[Whifflingpin]

Giles Goat Boy is a religious character