do religion and intellect go together?

[cacian]

religion is a worship of a state or a being. the being is put on a pedestal that no worshiper seemingly could ever attain to.
there is no one above the deity. it is a hierarchy of a sort.


the intellect understands and resolves ideas to become real. an intellectual makes opportunities out conflicts.

do you think religion and intellect are intermittent?

[jkim1812]

I think intelligence is something that needs to be properly defined as it isn't something that is exactly quantifiable. And I heard somewhere once of a study that atheists tended to have higher IQs than religious folks. I can't verify the validity of this, but I could see there being something to it. But to say that they CAN'T exist together is not fair though, look at all the religious philosophers who believed in some form of god (Plato, Aristotle, Aquinas, Descartes, and C.S. Lewis just to name a few who wrote a lot about it). I think that part of being an intellect is questioning things and that's part of what religion is.

On a side note, I think certain religions may appeal to the intellectual mind more than others. Buddhism isn't necessarily a worship of a state or being, and I think it is one of these religions that would appeal to intellects more. It was Einstein who said, "The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. It should transcend personal God and avoid dogma and theology. Covering both the natural and the spiritual, it should be based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things natural and spiritual as a meaningful unity. Buddhism answers this description. If there is any religion that could cope with modern scientific needs it would be Buddhism." (Albert Einstein, the Human Side: New Glimpses from His Archives)

[cacian]

I think intelligence is something that needs to be properly defined as it isn't something that is exactly quantifiable.
intelligence is the ability to discern between facts and fiction. the ability to theorise practicality into factual stance. by that I mean palpable visible things.


And I heard somewhere once of a study that atheists tended to have higher IQs than religious folks.
really? how interesting haha :D


I think that part of being an intellect is questioning things and that's part of what religion is.
religion does not question things it induces them.


Buddhism isn't necessarily a worship of a state or being,
no? what is the belief or an buddhist?


It was Einstein who said, "The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. It should transcend personal God and avoid dogma and theology. Covering both the natural and the spiritual, it should be based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things natural and spiritual as a meaningful unity
I have a slight issue with spiritualism. unity is another one. all things natural I am not sure what that means.
I think it best not visualise religion into a future valient because the unknown may clash with it.

[mal4mac]

Why do religious types quote Einstein on religion? No physicist quotes the Pope on physics. I guess it's a ploy to try and convert all those atheist scientists. But Einstein's god is a very ill defined thing. What on earth is a "cosmic religion"? What does he mean by "spiritual"? Einstein is not worth taking seriously as a commenter on religion. Of course, he is worthy of great praise for the advances his made in physics, but that's all!

I mean how can you take a comment like, "The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion." seriously. Did Einstein really believe he could predict the future and see what kind of religion would be in place? He had a wicked sense of humour, I suspect his tongue was firmly in cheek when he said things like this. Hawking is also famous for throwing around vague God comments "for fun", though Dawkins put him on the spot and made him admit he was joking when he made such comments, and that he was (of course) an atheist, so religious types couldn't misuse his words.

[PeterL]

religion is a worship of a state or a being. the being is put on a pedestal that no worshiper seemingly could ever attain to.
there is no one above the deity. it is a hierarchy of a sort.

I disagree with your definition. When one starts with a false premise anything is possible.
religion
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/religion?s=t


the intellect understands and resolves ideas to become real. an intellectual makes opportunities out conflicts.

do you think religion and intellect are intermittent?

Your odd definition of intellect can also allow you to make whatever conclusions you want. Imagination can be considered part of intellect. There is nothing in a thorough definition of intellect that would exclude religion.

in·tel·lect
1. the power or faculty of the mind by which one knows or understands, as distinguished from that by which one feels and that by which one wills; the understanding; the faculty of thinking and acquiring knowledge.
2. capacity for thinking and acquiring knowledge, especially of a high or complex order; mental capacity.
3. a particular mind or intelligence, especially of a high order.
4. a person possessing a great capacity for thought and knowledge.

[jkim1812]

intelligence is the ability to discern between facts and fiction. the ability to theorise practicality into factual stance. by that I mean palpable visible things.
This is taking everything into account as factual, not taking into account the intangibles. To claim to know an intangible thing is certainly not intelligence. Now you may claim that this is what religion is doing but I do not think it is fair to say that this is what ALL religions are doing.

no? what is the belief or an buddhist?

I have a slight issue with spiritualism. unity is another one. all things natural I am not sure what that means.
Well certainly Buddhism deals more with the concept of unity. I am not a Buddhism scholar, nor do I want to front to be but from what I understand it is this acknowledgement of unity of everything. To be fair, Buddhism doesn’t necessarily consider itself to be a religion in the traditional sense in worshiping a god or diety, I believe it was western views that added the –ism to the end of it. Even in Buddhism there are many different branches that believe different things, some (Tibetan Buddhists) worship many different gods. Buddhism is a nontheistic religion by nature though. Buddhists believe in the karmic cycle of rebirth and the idea of enlightenment or awakening. While this could be viewed as a state of being I don’t see there being a worship anything. Enlightenment is simply a form of supreme knowledge that cannot be perceived through our 5 human senses.

Why do religious types quote Einstein on religion? No physicist quotes the Pope on physics. I guess it's a ploy to try and convert all those atheist scientists. But Einstein's god is a very ill defined thing. What on earth is a "cosmic religion"? What does he mean by "spiritual"? Einstein is not worth taking seriously as a commenter on religion. Of course, he is worthy of great praise for the advances his made in physics, but that's all!
I mean how can you take a comment like, "The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion." seriously. Did Einstein really believe he could predict the future and see what kind of religion would be in place?
This is discrediting automatically that science and theology oppose each other. I certainly that Einstein often gets overquoted in this sense I don’t believe this to be him joking. Certainly Einstein’s god was not a very well defined thing either, does this make it any less real to him? Einstein was studying the very nature of life, what things are made of. You don’t see the scientists quoting the pope because science deals with certainty and facts, religion is something else entirely. Perhaps blind faith opposes intellect. I agree with you and cacain on “predicting the future” though.

[cacian]

I disagree with your definition. When one starts with a false premise anything is possible.
religion
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/religion?s=t
I gather I have my personal feeling about religion and how worship to it attach such a superiority of belief it is impossible not to notice.
how about relics? people worship them too?
the catholic church is one big relic covered in gold. the more the better. the Pope is sat on a chair which is lifted up to the skies.
normal worshiper adorn the look. the pope is another normal person and yet we treat him like he was god personified.
is that no putting someone on a pedestal and not reaching out to it?


Your odd definition of intellect can also allow you to make whatever conclusions you want. Imagination can be considered part of intellect. There is nothing in a thorough definition of intellect that would exclude religion.

in·tel·lect
1. the power or faculty of the mind by which one knows or understands, as distinguished from that by which one feels and that by which one wills; the understanding; the faculty of thinking and acquiring knowledge.
2. capacity for thinking and acquiring knowledge, especially of a high or complex order; mental capacity.
3. a particular mind or intelligence, especially of a high order.
4. a person possessing a great capacity for thought and knowledge.
my definition does not conform to the dictionary it is born out of my own observation uncoformed springs to mind. :)

[PeterL]

I gather I have my personal feeling about religion and how worship to it attach such a superiority of belief it is impossible not to notice.
how about relics? people worship them too?
the catholic church is one big relic covered in gold. the more the better. the Pope is sat on a chair which is lifted up to the skies.
normal worshiper adorn the look. the pope is another normal person and yet we treat him like he was god personified.
is that no putting someone on a pedestal and not reaching out to it?

I don't completely disagree with your thoughts of what religion is, but there's a lot more to religion than big symbols. The underlying beliefs are more important to many people, and that's why there are people who are spiritual but non-religious.


my definition does not conform to the dictionary it is born out of my own observation uncoformed springs to mind. :)

Your definition is just a small part of what intelligence is. Intelligence is the ability to acquire, analyze, understand information, and the ability to apply information acquired to new and different situations.

[MorpheusSandman]

If you want to equate intelligence with IQ (and we currently have no better measurement, however many caveats one wants to include regarding IQ), atheists have a slightly higher average IQ, and atheism is much more common amongst high-IQ institutions and professions (MENSA, science, etc.). Atheism also becomes more prominent as education and income levels increase.

[mortalterror]

religion is a worship of a state or a being. the being is put on a pedestal that no worshiper seemingly could ever attain to.
there is no one above the deity. it is a hierarchy of a sort.


the intellect understands and resolves ideas to become real. an intellectual makes opportunities out conflicts.

do you think religion and intellect are intermittent?
Rizzle razzle jibba jabba hooza jigga what now? Outgrabe flows the tum tum tree and a uffing for the majesty. Speak English, mother****er! I can't tell what the **** you're saying.

[mortalterror]

If you want to equate intelligence with IQ (and we currently have no better measurement, however many caveats one wants to include regarding IQ), atheists have a slightly higher average IQ, and atheism is much more common amongst high-IQ institutions and professions (MENSA, science, etc.). Atheism also becomes more prominent as education and income levels increase.

I hear you, and I read somewhere that atheists are supposed to be like one or two IQ points higher than most religious people. I suppose that makes sense. Atheism tends to be an elitist ideology of affluent white males, with one of it's core values being intellectualism. Christianity is more big tent, with that "give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free" type attitude. Christianity is explicitly anti-elitist with that whole "the last shall be first and the first shall be last" bit and "it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven." It's always talking about the meek inheriting the earth, praising the innocence of children, and challenging the mighty to humble themselves. It's probably not fair to call Christianity anti-intellectual, but it's at the very least neutral on the subject, whereas atheism is decidedly intellectual in ideology and culture. So on the one hand atheism promotes intellectuality, skepticism, and rationality and on the other Christianity promotes charity, kindness, and intuitive thinking.

Right now, the face of New Atheism, that brand of militant atheism that sprang up in the wake of 9/11 largely in reaction to perceived Muslim extremists is old rich white male intellectuals: Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens, Daniel Dennett. But if we go back just to the 80s and 90s, the face of atheism in America was Madalyn Murray O'Hair. You don't get more diametrically opposed. She's a blue collar woman with a Bachelors degree from a nowhere university and a law degree from some lucky charms unaccredited law school. I see the change largely as a result, one of 9/11 and the anti-Muslim backlash, and two as the result of the fall of the Soviet Union in 1989. Now, in the East, meaning Russia, China, etc. where atheism was imposed by the state on it's citizens as a byproduct of communism it was anti-intellectual and proletariat. But meanwhile in the West it was bohemian, liberal, and thrived in academic circles among influential intellectuals alongside communism. Raymond Aron referred to Marxism as the opium of the intellectuals, and somehow it got institutionalized in the liberal education system, and then into liberal politics. The right largely purged itself of atheists in several stages. First, the McCarthy era when being an atheist was synonymous with being a communist. Second, the Regan years when the right tried to ally itself with Christianity. Thus 73 percent of American atheists vote democrat to this day. It's true as you say that atheism goes up as education levels rise, but you are misattributing the causes and effects. You attribute atheism's increase with an increase in education, whereas it's probably more do to an increase in liberalism and other societal factors of academic institutions.

When we look at the data, atheism does not rise evenly with education. Different subjects show different relationships to atheism. I think you will agree with me that for obvious reasons people who have advanced degrees in Theology and Comparative Religion will likely skew more religious than cultural average. Likewise, certain sciences skew more atheist than the cultural average. But why is that? And why don't we see the same atheist bump in every science? Why are there more atheists in biology than in math? Is it a matter of the scientific culture, and the pressures to conform to the ideologies of their peers? Or is it the methodology of their training? A number of atheists I have corresponded with have raised the opinion that science teaches men to think rationally, critically, skeptically, to look at all of their opinions through the prism of the scientific method. Now, assuming that is true, although many scientists hold beliefs not arrived at by this logical process, we might assume that their results would be uniform. But they aren't. For instance, medical doctors skew more religious than the average. We can probably attribute this to how much social contact with people they have and the need to deal with stress which religion often helps with, versus the often anti-social, or more independent attitudes of many atheists. Teachers and businessmen, religion is up too. It seems that all careers that require high degrees of empathy show marked levels of religious involvement, and the one's that require more clinical robotic number crunching draw atheists to them. Thus, we can see that the urge to believe or disbelieve is largely self-serving and where a religious attitude would help one rise through the ranks religious belief flourishes, and in careers where it would be a hindrance, it withers.

In fact, I believe a University recently did a survey of it's students tracking religious beliefs from entry to graduation and noted that it was the humanities which showed the largest swing toward atheism, contrary to the common wisdom. The result was found to be a product of students being exposed to post-modern philosophy, all that existentialism, relativism, and new age angst. Which begs the question, could we get the religious numbers up if we just piped more classical philosophy into the curriculum? Is atheism largely a byproduct of the new philosophies and is it being socially engineered in our nation's colleges? Food for thought.

Going back to my original thought, religious institutions don't seem to have intellect and education as one of their clear main goals, except for sects like the Jesuits. But they do routinely outperform atheists in other areas like charitable giving, volunteerism, social capital, group cohesion, happiness; so it's not like there aren't trade offs or benefits either way. Of course, there are some religions that are probably more intellectual friendly than Christianity. Judaism probably fosters more intellectuals than atheism; so I guess you get the best of both worlds.

[cacian]

Going back to my original thought, religious institutions don't seem to have intellect and education as one of their clear main goals, except for sects like the Jesuits. But they do routinely outperform atheists in other areas like charitable giving, volunteerism, social capital, group cohesion, happiness; so it's not like there aren't trade offs or benefits either way. Of course, there are some religions that are probably more intellectual friendly than Christianity. Judaism probably fosters more intellectuals than atheism; so I guess you get the best of both worlds.
why do you think that is?
if one is to describe religion physically or if one to describe the appearance of religion from an exterior point of view to it does offer rather a poor look.
the other extreme is gold embedded.
the appearance is extremist.

[PeterL]

why do you think that is?
if one is to describe religion physically or if one to describe the appearance of religion from an exterior point of view to it does offer rather a poor look.
the other extreme is gold embedded.
the appearance is extremist.

While there are some religious sects that prefer their followers remain uneducated, Mormonism for example, some religions explicitly require their adherents to become educated, Islam has the strongest statement along these lines, but Christianity was also that way at some times. The problem develops there when strong groups develop within the religion that operate by claiming religious authority; the Imams and some orders or priests are examples.

Personally, I would prefer if many people accepted me as the true prophet of the Gods and sent me all their money, but I wouldn't expect them to accept everything I said anyway.

[mortalterror]

why do you think that is?
Because you don't have to be a smart person to be a good person, and that's what they are most concerned with.

[YALASH]

religion is a worship of a state or a being. the being is put on a pedestal that no worshiper seemingly could ever attain to.

there is no one above the deity. it is a hierarchy of a sort.

the intellect understands and resolves ideas to become real. an intellectual makes opportunities out conflicts.

do you think religion and intellect are intermittent?


Peace be on you.
Knowledge and Mercy originates from God.

"Your God is only Allah, beside Whom there is no God. He embraces all things in his knowledge." [ch 20 : v 99]


God ask to pray to get increase in knowledge.

"Exalted then is Allah, the True King! And be not impatient for the Qur’an ere its revelation is completed unto thee, but only say, ‘O my Lord, increase me in knowledge." [ch 20 : v 115]



Knowledge and Mercy are together

"...... Our Lord, Thou dost comprehend all things in Thy mercy and knowledge......" [ch 40 : v 8]



Good works needed alongwith faith

"And We have enjoined on man to be good to his parents. His mother bears him with pain, and brings him forth with pain. And the bearing of him and his weaning takes thirty months, till, when he attains his full maturity and reaches (the age of) forty years, he says, ‘My Lord, grant me (the power) that I may be grateful for Thy favour which Thou hast bestowed upon me and upon my parents, and that I may do such good works as may please Thee. And make my seed righteous for me. I do turn to Thee; and, truly, I am of those who submit (to Thee).’ " [ch 46 : v 16]



Reflection is essential

"And He has subjected to you whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth: all this is from Him. In that surely are Signs for a people who reflect." [ch 45 : v 14]

Verses translations from alislam.org/quran




From Ahmadiyya-Muslim Physicist's (Prof. Abdus Salam 1926-1996) , The founder of International Center for Theoretical Physics, Trieste, Italy, Speech at Nobel Prize Banquet

"The Nobel Prize in Physics 1979
Banquet Speech
Abdus Salam's speech at the Nobel Banquet, December 10, 1979
....
The creation of Physics is the shared heritage of all mankind. East and West, North and South have equally participated in it. In the Holy Book of Islam, Allah says:

"Thou seest not, in the creation of the All-merciful any imperfection, Return thy gaze, seest thou any fissure. Then Return thy gaze, again and again. Thy gaze, Comes back to thee dazzled, aweary."

This in effect is, the faith of all physicists; the deeper we seek, the more is our wonder excited, the more is the dazzlement for our gaze.

I am saying this, not only to remind those here tonight of this, but also for those in the Third World, who feel they have lost out in the pursuit of scientific knowledge, for lack of opportunity and resource............................."

Source: http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/1979/salam-speech.html

More
http://salam.ictp.it/salam/bibliography/speeches

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True Religion gives true direction to intellect and other human faculties.

[cacian]

YALASH do you trust god or you?

[YALASH]

YALASH do you trust god or you?

Peace be on you.
I trust God Who made us for a purpose. I trust in God’s bounties, permissions and prohibitions. This trust increases when I see resulting benefits and losses.

I trust myself within my limits; limits made by my Maker.



"And why should we not put our trust in Allah when He has showed us our ways?..............." (Holy Quran ch 14 : from v 13)



Special Rule
"So her Lord accepted her with a gracious acceptance and caused her to grow an excellent growth and made Zachariah her guardian. Whenever Zachariah visited her in the chamber, he found with her provisions. He said, ‘O Mary, whence hast thou this?’ She replied, ‘It is from Allah.’ Surely, Allah gives to whomsoever He pleases without measure." (ch 3 : v 38)

General Rule
"And that man will have nothing but what he strives for. " (ch 53 : v 40)

================================================

"..........And he who puts his trust in Allah — He is sufficient for him. Verily, Allah will accomplish His purpose. For everything has Allah appointed a measure." (ch 65 : from v 4)

[ddrosdick97]

I definitely think religion and intellect are compatible! So much of science proves religion, such as the big bang. God said "let their be light" which proves the very idea of the big bang. Evolution could very well be God's speeding through the process of developing all the animals. And historically, there is proof in the soil far enough down that the flood did, in fact happen. I could go on an on but these are just a few examples!