Is Bob Dylan a Poet?

[108 fountains]

I’ve always thought of Bob Dylan as one of America’s greatest poets, but then I’ve wondered if he is even considered a poet at all by the denizens of poetry and literature. There seem to be several people here on LitNet that know an awful lot more about poetry than I do, so I thought I would ask the questions – is Bob Dylan a poet? Or is he a lyricist? And maybe a broader question – can/should any song lyrics be considered poetry?

I could give lots of examples of my favorite Dylan lyrics, but let me just quote one verse from Mr. Tambourine Man.

Then take me disappearin' through the smoke rings of my mind
Down the foggy ruins of time, far past the frozen leaves
The haunted, frightened trees, out to the windy beach
Far from the twisted reach of crazy sorrow
Yes, to dance beneath the diamond sky with one hand waving free
Silhouetted by the sea, circled by the circus sands
With all memory and fate driven deep beneath the waves
Let me forget about today until tomorrow.

To me, this is brilliant poetry, but I wonder if others agree.

[MorpheusSandman]

I thought enough of him to include him on my list here: http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?74912-The-100-Greatest-English-Language-Poets

To answer your question, yes, lyrics are a mode of poetry (as opposed to narrative and dramatic). The real distinction to be made is between lyrics that are written to be read VS those written to be sung. For most of English history lyric poetry was written to be sung. Donne even wrote a poem about this aspect of lyric poetry being sung (http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/173386). For whatever reason, we now live in a culture that seems to consider that poetry only exists to be read, and not usually out loud. We've lost touch with the musical and oral traditions of poetry, and I think it's one thing that's really hurt its popularity.

Bob Dylan is a singer/songwriter, first and foremost. Almost all of his lyrics were written to be sung and with that singing in mind when he wrote them, as opposed to intending them to be read on the page. He worked almost exclusively in the folk lyric tradition, even taking to rewriting classic ballads (Lord Randall My Son becomes A Hard Rain's A-Gonna Fall) a few times. When he takes up trying to imitate the Beats and other visionaries like Blake I think he's less successful, though there are plenty of fine moments. I'm not sure if he has a single lyric that works purely as written poetry, even though they tend to work better than most all other pop/rock/folk music lyrics.

Anyway, Dylan is a truly great, brilliant artist and, in my mind, he doesn't need to be legitimized as a poet or considered one to cement his greatness. His impact on 20th century music and culture is profound and undeniable.

[russellb]

poetry is a performance art and, of course, one can go to poetry readings. The only thing I can think to contribute about Dylan is that the performance includes musical instruments. Actually Jerusalem by William Blake was originally a poem that was subsequently put to music, though to my mind the last night of the proms jingoism does miss the point of the poem a bit

[Lykren]

Words and music have a way of complementing each other in strange and surprising ways in Dylan's work. But I'm not sure I would call poetry performance art; to my mind one of the most distinctive and characteristic qualities of reading is that it is the reader who interprets and 'performs' the text.

Anyways, I really think that the texture of Dylan's voice and his vocal phrasing are what make him stand out. I know a lot of people intensely dislike the quality of his voice, but I suspect that is because it contradicts our conventional ideas of what is beautiful, and not because it's actually sloppy or unskilled. When I listen to "If You See Her, Say Hello" the simplicity of the words is vastly enriched by the agonized twists and turns his voice takes.

I think the same thing of Johnny Cash, and I think it's the fact that Bob Dylan wrote better songs than Cash that makes Dylan the more respected of the two; but it's my opinion that the aural quality of a song takes precedence over the textual quality of its lyrics. We can react to a song before we react to its lyrics.

Bit of a tangent, but essentially I am saying that though I do think Dylan is a pretty good poet, it's not what he'll be most remembered for.

[russellb]

yes i accept that, one may encounter poetry in a 'private' way and 'perform' it for oneself so to speak. Of course one can read Dylan divested of the music and find that to be a valuable aesthetic experience. Perhaps this tells us that poetry is an art form that expresses itself in different 'modes' rather than having a unitary ontology (which is a clumsy way of expressing a point that that is not quite clear to me). I should say, for example I've always preferred to read Hamlet than see it performed

[desiresjab]

Yes. As merely a poet off the page he has extraordinary variety and scope. I believe if he had not been a musician, and was still able to write the way that he did, he would have easily outstripped the likes of Ginsberg on purely poetic turf, and left no lingering question as to whether he should be considered a poet. He is a great love poet.

Of course he does not read as well as he is heard, for full impact. Sometimes the hurry-up phrasing seems a little undisciplined to the mere reader unacquainted with the tunes, and much is lost by the absence of his dissonant howls on the sharped fourth. I think the machine gun rhymes come off much better in the musical environment, too. It can also be noted that sometimes Dylan's own musical version is not the one that brings out a piece's full power. All Dylan's version of Delia makes me want to do anymore is listen to Martin Simpson's version. Well, that song belongs to neither one of them. I guess Dylan was covering it too. My apologies.

But I do not mind denying him half his power if it helps thin the field of every simple songwriter calling themselves poets and being referred to that way. Let's face it, even the simple musical choice of major or minor key already casts its aura over a piece. Without a key signature, Dylan still beats out many recognized poets.

I said Dylan had extraordinary scope, and he did, for a love poet, for he was a few other things as well. He was a poet in the way that Irving Berlin was not, but only a brilliant lyricist. The border may not ever be clearly defined where one starts and the other stops. But the fact is, Berlin will often sound like a greeting card when digested straight off the page. Only the music justifies it. He did not investigate characters and peer at human behavior the way Dylan did.

Somewhere in the middle is a character like Johnny Cash who was barely a decent musician and barely a poet, but a lyricist who succeeded partly because of his unusual voice and the aortal backup guitar of Luther Perkins. Much of his fame as a "poet" comes from his latter day association with the likes of Dylan, Christopherson and some hip producers, not to mention Jimmy Webb. All three slap Cash senseless as a poet without key signature, and with a key signature, too, I might add.

[MorpheusSandman]

I'm not sure I would call poetry performance art;It was for the vast majority of its existence until literacy and the means for writing were generalized enough that most everyone could do it.


Anyways, I really think that the texture of Dylan's voice and his vocal phrasing are what make him stand out. I know a lot of people intensely dislike the quality of his voice, but I suspect that is because it contradicts our conventional ideas of what is beautiful, and not because it's actually sloppy or unskilled. Yes. Bono wrote a good piece on Dylan when Rolling Stone placed him 7th on their 100 Greatest Singers List (http://www.rollingstone.com/music/lists/100-greatest-singers-of-all-time-19691231/bob-dylan-20101202) when he tells the anecdote where: "Sam Cooke played Dylan for the young Bobby Womack, Womack said he didn't understand it. Cooke explained that from now on, it's not going to be about how pretty the voice is. It's going to be about believing that the voice is telling the truth." Dylan sold the truth of what he sang better than any singer in history to the point that he could sing classic folk ballads and people felt him a contemporary prophet. Although if I was to pick one song that best demonstrates this it would be his version of Moonshiner.

Funnily enough, I think several of Dylan's best lyrics are on songs he never released on official albums. Try this:
'Cross the Green Mountain

I cross the Green Mountain, I sit by the stream
Heaven blazing in my head, I dreamt a monstrous dream
Something came up out of the sea
Swept through the land of the rich and the free

I look into the eyes of my merciful friend
And then I ask myself is this the end?
Memories linger, sad yet sweet
And I think of the souls in heaven who we'll meet

Altars are burning, the flames far and wide
The foe has crossed over from the other side
They tip their caps from the top of the hill
You can feel them come, more brave blood to spill

Along the dim Atlantic line
The rapier's land lies for miles behind
The lights coming forward and the streets are broad
All must yield to the avenging God

The world is old, the world is gray
Lessons of life can't be learned in a day
I watch and I wait and I listen while I stand
To the music that comes from a far better land

Close the eyes of our Captain, peace may he know
His long night is done, the great leader is laid low
He was ready to fall, he was quick to defend
Killed outright, he was, by his own men

It's the last day's last hour of the last happy year
I feel that the unknown world is so near
Pride will vanish and glory will rot
But virtue lives and cannot be forgot

The bells of leavening have rung
There's blasphemy on every tongue
Let 'em say that I walked in fair nature's light
And that I was loyal to truth and to right

Serve God and be cheerful, look upward beyond
Beyond the darkness that masks the surprises of dawn
In the deep green grasses and the bloodstained wood
They never dreamed of surrendering, they fell where they stood

Stars fell over Alabama and I saw each star
You're walking in dreams whoever you are
Chilled are the skies, keen is the frost
The grounds froze hard and the morning is lost

A letter to mother came today
Gunshot wound to the breast is what it did say
But he'll be better soon, he's in a hospital bed
But he'll never be better, he's already dead

I'm ten miles outside the city and I'm lifted away
In an ancient light that is not of day
They were calm, they were gloomed, we knew 'em all too well
We loved each other more than we ever dared to tell

[108 fountains]

These are all great postings. I've learned a lot and appreciate the various insights and points of view. I agree that Dylan wrote some great love songs - Boots of Spanish Leather and Girl from the North Country come to mind (which, by the way, are musically very similar). But I have always liked best his more political songs - Hollis Brown, With God on Our Side (with some minor revisions to reflect the present geopolitics), and Masters of War, along with many others from his earlier years, are as fresh and relevant today as they were 50 years ago.

[Dreamwoven]

That particular extract from Mr Tambourine Man is one of my favourites, too. I also like the bitter lyrics of Positively 4th Street. And of his protest songs Masters of War. I also like the lyrics of "Every Grain of Sand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Every_Grain_of_Sand)", one of his spiritual songs: beautiful words!

[Jack of Hearts]

Nah.

For this reader's money , Dylan's best moment is on the bootlegged BoT recording of "You're a Big Girl Now". It is a shining example of how poetic force is not attached to words, is something greater than verbatim-- how can you not believe him as he croons out:

"I'm going out of my mind
with a pain that stops and starts;
like a corkscrew to my heart,
ever since we've been apart."

And looking at it out of context, you just shrug. But hearing it. Yikes. Some lines are bought and paid for. These are some of them. This is a man hurting, and he's not telling us about it, he's just doing it.




J

[Lykren]

I agree completely with Jack of Hearts. I don't mind reading Dylan's lyrics, some of which are decent, but the reason I consider him a great artist is what he can do with his voice.

"Say for me that I’m all right though things get kind of slow
She might think that I’ve forgotten her, don’t tell her it isn’t so"

is unremarkable as poetry, remarkable as he sings it.

EDIT: Didn't realize this post was a rehash of something I already said. Sorry.

And oh, Morpheus, I hadn't read or heard that song before. I'm not sure I've been missing out on anything special though... though it's well paced and the phrasings are occasionally interesting, it also feels conceptually vague and sometimes is outright trite:
"Pride will vanish and glory will rot
But virtue lives and cannot be forgot" ?

I think there are some good lines on Blood on the Tracks, but for outright reading material I prefer Ain't Talkin':

As I walked out tonight in the mystic garden
The wounded flowers were dangling from the vines
I was passing by yon cool and crystal fountain
Someone hit me from behind

Ain't talkin', just walkin'
Through this weary world of woe
Heart burnin', still yearnin'
No one on earth would ever know

They say prayer has the power to help
So pray from the mother
In the human heart an evil spirit can dwell
I'm trying to love my neighbor and do good unto others
But oh, mother, things ain't going well

Ain't talkin', just walkin'
I'll burn that bridge before you can cross
Heart burnin', still yearnin'
They'll be no mercy for you once you've lost

Now I'm all worn down by weepin'
My eyes are filled with tears, my lips are dry
If I catch my opponents ever sleepin'
I'll just slaughter them where they lie

Ain't talkin', just walkin'
Through the world mysterious and vague
Heart burnin', still yearnin'
Walking through the cities of the plague

The whole world is filled with speculation
The whole wide world which people say is round
They will tear your mind away from contemplation
They will jump on your misfortune when you're down

Ain't talkin', just walkin'
Eatin' hog-eyed grease in hog-eyed town
Heart burnin' – still yearnin'
Someday you'll be glad to have me around

They will crush you with wealth and power
Every waking moment you could crack
I'll make the most of one last extra hour
I'll avenge my father's death then I'll step back

Ain't talkin', just walkin'
Hand me down my walkin' cane
Heart burnin', still yearnin'
Got to get you out of my miserable brain

All my loyal and much-loved companions
They approve of me and share my code
I practice a faith that's been long abandoned
Ain't no altars on this long and lonesome road

Ain't talkin', just walkin'
My mule is sick, my horse is blind
Heart burnin', still yearnin'
Thinkin' ‘bout that gal I left behind

It's bright in the heavens and the wheels are flying
Fame and honor never seem to fade
The fire's gone out but the light is never dying
Who says I can't get heavenly aid?

Ain't talkin', just walkin'
Carrying a dead man's shield
Heart burnin', still yearnin'
Walkin' with a toothache in my heel

The suffering is unending
Every nook and cranny has its tears
I'm not playing, I'm not pretending
I'm not nursing any superfluous fears

Ain't talkin', just walkin'
Walkin' ever since the other night
Heart burnin', still yearnin'
Walkin' ‘til I'm clean out of sight

As I walked out in the mystic garden
On a hot summer day, hot summer lawn
Excuse me, ma'am I beg your pardon
There's no one here, the gardener is gone

Ain't talkin', just walkin'
Up the road around the bend
Heart burnin', still yearnin'
In the last outback, at the world's end

I love the blending of the archaic feel with sentiments both cruel and rude.

[Dreamwoven]

The thread-starter - 108 Following - chose this part of Dylan as his all-time favourite.

Then take me disappearin' through the smoke rings of my mind
Down the foggy ruins of time, far past the frozen leaves
The haunted, frightened trees, out to the windy beach
Far from the twisted reach of crazy sorrow
Yes, to dance beneath the diamond sky with one hand waving free
Silhouetted by the sea, circled by the circus sands
With all memory and fate driven deep beneath the waves
Let me forget about today until tomorrow.

This is also my all-time favourite, the exact same lines.

The other examples I gave were just other Dylan lyrics I like, ranked in descending order, well below the first, above.

[YesNo]

What makes this particular lyric by Dylan attractive, at least to me, is its sound. There is a general underlying iambic meter with rhyme and alliteration to add secondary patterns along with unexpected adjectives that keep the meter intact. The meaning seems to be: let the tambourine give me a little distance from the sorrows of today, however, I'm so attentive to the sound I just need to know that the meaning doesn't spoil it.

[Ecurb]

The profundity of Dylan's poetic questioning can be questioned. Let's try out one of Dylan's questions, just to test ourselves:

"How many times must a man look up before he can see the sky?"

"Uhhhh... one. Depending on the cloud cover."

Of course Dylan is not alone in asking poetic questions that wouldn't stump a first grader. He's in good company.

James Lowell asks, “What is so rare as a day in June?”

Another easy one. "A day in April, September or November. Days in February are rarer."


Thomas Gray inquires, “Can honour’s voice provoke the silent dust, Or flattery soothe the dull cold ear of Death?”

"No, they can’t."


Emily Dickinson asks, “I’m nobody. Who are you? Are you nobody, too?”

"No. I’m Ecurb (although it's a fake name)."

[YesNo]

There's a lot of nonsense in song lyrics even when the songwriter isn't asking a question. The nonsense gets covered up by the music.

Probably the only place where one can find people routinely getting away with even more nonsense is in poetry.

[Pope of Eruke]

If you accept that songwriters can be poets, then absolutely. I love Dylan, as you might be able to tell by my name.

[Dreamwoven]

I would add Leonard Cohen, especially Hey, thats no way to say goodbye. For me some of the best songs are poetry set to music.

[Dreamwoven]

That particular extract from Mr Tambourine Man is one of my favourites, too. I also like the bitter lyrics of Positively 4th Street. And of his protest songs Masters of War. I also like the lyrics of "Every Grain of Sand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Every_Grain_of_Sand)", one of his spiritual songs: beautiful words!

These Dylan songs show the great versatility of both the songs and the different emotions expressed in them.

For decades I thought Positively 4th Street (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positively_4th_Street) referred to Dinkytown in Minneapolis where Dylan once lived as a student. Now I am much less sure, in many ways New York would make more sense, as I read somewhere that he had a girlfriend there and so the lyrics express his anger and disappointment at the breakup.

Masters of War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masters_of_War) also has very powerful lyrics, though as a protest song. Every grain of sand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Every_Grain_of_Sand) is in part taken from William Blake Auguries of Innocence., but put to music has an extra quality: this is from Blake, according to the Wikipedia page on the song:

To see a world in a grain of sand
And a heaven in a wild flower,
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand
And eternity in an hour.

Other songs by Dylan have been influenced by Scottish folk songs from the time of the Stuarts, as well as Irish. Does anyone know which, and how the lyrics were changed, if at all?

[Pope of Eruke]

These Dylan songs show the great versatility of both the songs and the different emotions expressed in them.

For decades I thought Positively 4th Street (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positively_4th_Street) referred to Dinkytown in Minneapolis where Dylan once lived as a student. Now I am much less sure, in many ways New York would make more sense, as I read somewhere that he had a girlfriend there and so the lyrics express his anger and disappointment at the breakup.

Masters of War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masters_of_War) also has very powerful lyrics, though as a protest song. Every grain of sand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Every_Grain_of_Sand) is in part taken from William Blake Auguries of Innocence., but put to music has an extra quality: this is from Blake, according to the Wikipedia page on the song:

To see a world in a grain of sand
And a heaven in a wild flower,
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand
And eternity in an hour.

Other songs by Dylan have been influenced by Scottish folk songs from the time of the Stuarts, as well as Irish. Does anyone know which, and how the lyrics were changed, if at all?

Masters of War was adapted from Nottamun town. However, that is strictly the tune.

A-Hard Rains A Gonna Fall is adapted from Lord Randall,

Oh where ha’e ye been, Lord Randall my son?
O where ha’e ye been, my handsome young man?”

That's the first two lines.

[Dreamwoven]

Thats interesting, Thanks! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Randall

[Pope of Eruke]

Thats interesting, Thanks! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Randall

There are lots of examples.

[Dreamwoven]

Pope of Eruke, you are clearly an expert on Dylan's music, which is a great resource to have on this thread. It would be neat if you could list the others that you know Dylan got from Scottish and Irish ballads.

[Pope of Eruke]

Pope of Eruke, you are clearly an expert on Dylan's music, which is a great resource to have on this thread. It would be neat if you could list the others that you know Dylan got from Scottish and Irish ballads.

No expert! Just a Dylan nutjob who knows a little bit about his music, trust me what I know would pale in comparison to the real experts haha

The most well known is Girl From North Country, and Boots of Spanish Leather (And the Donovan song The Ballad of Geraldine too) come from the song Scarborough Fair, Simon and Garfunkel did a version and the versions are all best on a recent (at the time) interpretation but it's an old ballad.

[Pope of Eruke]

Has anyone here read Tarantula?

[Dreamwoven]

Never even heard of it before. I had no idea Dylan had written a book, and quite some time ago, too. Found it in Wikipedia and a selection of pages on google books. Creepy subject...

[mortalterror]

He wrote in verses and his lyrics are published in numerous places. That makes him a poet. Whether he is a good, bad, or great poet is another matter entirely.

[Dreamwoven]

Pope of Eruke - have you read it?

[Pope of Eruke]

Pope of Eruke - have you read it?

Yes I have it on Kindle. If you have read the liner notes to Bringing it All Back Home and Highway 61 Revisited it is similar in style to that.

[Dreamwoven]

I don't have kindle or any other e-book reader, and not those two specific LPs you mention. But I will read the google book truncated version soon.

[Pope of Eruke]

I don't have kindle or any other e-book reader, and not those two specific LPs you mention. But I will read the google book truncated version soon.

:yikes:

Anyhow here is a more recent take on it http://www.bobdylan.com/us/news/new-take-tarantula

When it was published it was dismissed by critics, music ones at that, as a bunch of nonsense. Who knows, I am no expert and it might well be, but I found it interesting if nothing else.

[Dreamwoven]

I didn't realise the Watchtower referred to a place in Minneapolis. We spent a year there in 1971/2 and lived on 4th Street in Dinkytown. The tarantula website is completely new to me, I must explore it as well...