Racism

[jajdude]

Do you have no racial attitudes or feeling in you? Don't be so quick. It is not your fault if you do. You have started with the usual idea that you are a separate individual person, responsible for his/her thought. Is that so? Go into it just a little, this is not deep. Your thought was given to you. That's obvious. So, all the racial, national, religious arguments and so forth were given to you. It's interesting to me how we argue over influence. We are well trained to believe we are separate.

This is not really about racism. It's more about thought, in which race and racism is an idea, one which has been thrown around a lot lately. It's almost boring. A person is born and that's what he or she is. Then the influences occupy spaces and the whole thing is meaningless.

It isn't the thought of racism that you need to be afraid of. It's the fact that we divide ourselves into groups. Isn't this a trick of thought? I'm not sure, but the pervading and ongoing attitudes we see are never aware of this somehow, when in fact it quite simple. This dividing we humans enjoy is sad. We think it gives us identity and security, but it does the opposite. We fight and kill over ideas.

[Delta40]

Our Attorney General George Brandis said last week as a defence for the proposed changes to the Racial Discrimination Act that people are allowed to be bigots you know.

I certainly don't disagree with him but to say it is unlawful to villifiy or intimidate another to the point of physical violent harm and then provide exemption laws that give them protection to do this is the act of a racist.

That isn't an Act it's an instruction guide on how to cover your arse when silencing others through whatever means necessary.

Notwithstanding our ethnic community, indigenous people already have a wall of racism to deal with as it is. Now me and my friends can just about start stringing them up on trees because the exemptions laws if passed are so broad, you can drive a truck through them.

They only got the right to vote in 1967 and here we are white reasonable thinking people setting the dogs loose. Jews, Moslems, Asians none of them can rely on our govt since our PM is the instigator of the change.

So of course have your prejudices but society needs laws to keep it civil

[Volya]

I like to think I am not racist, as I imagine all of us do. I certainly try not to be and I can't remember a time where I have ever consciously done something racist. However I think deep within the subconscious of all of us, there is the tendency to favour our own race. It's not really something that can easily be changed. Racism is clearly still a problem in the world too. I remember when I was younger I naively believed that racism and sexism didn't exist any more because we had laws preventing it... Quite a shock when I realized some people still think black people, women, homosexuals, and other minorities are inferior.

[tonywalt]

Minorities in the Caribbean, luckily for us, have never been seen as inferior. So, I'm so thankful for that..

[JBI]

I'm called white everywhere I go, and people all think I'm illiterate, licentious, stupid, and rich. Strangely, before moving to China I had never identified myself as "white", and certainly never as "foreign", or "American", or "Western" given my mixed cultural background, multicultural upbringing, and pluralistic attitudes toward life. But when I go attend a lecture, somehow all eyes give me the "what is the white guy doing here" look, as if white people just cannot understand.

Then again, these petty complaints must be nothing compared to the abuse various minorities feel on a daily basis. I would say the experience has perhaps made me more sensitive to my own racial assumptions.

[JBI]

Minorities in the Caribbean, luckily for us, have never been seen as inferior. So, I'm so thankful for that..

Is this supposed to be ironic?

[Gideonthenomad]

Racism on a personal level is a manifestation of in-group bias and, though problematic, is not the main problem. Institutional racism-- that's the issue.

[Delta40]

Racism on a personal level is a manifestation of in-group bias and, though problematic, is not the main problem. Institutional racism-- that's the issue.

That is certainly the case here in Oz with the new racial discrimination law reforms. In the same week, without even consulting his cabinet our PM introduced Knighthoods & Dames. It makes for a blatant yawning gap in our society. Groups are deprived of legal protection and white middle upper class get titles.

[AuntShecky]

Yep. "Institutionalized racism" so ingrained that most of us don't realize that we are racist. When confronted with verbal lapses, preconceived notions, stereotypical statements, people will always say, "I'm not a racist." Undoubtedly they are sincere--nobody consciously makes the decision to be racist--but unwittingly racism tarnishes nearly everything we say or do. That's a fact, and that's how insidious racism is.

We have to ask ourselves -- where does racism come from?

[Volya]

It's probably a natural instinct to be honest. I would imagine we are predisposed for trust towards people who are similar and hostility to those who are different - be in in race or any other aspect.

[JBI]

Yep. "Institutionalized racism" so ingrained that most of us don't realize that we are racist. When confronted with verbal lapses, preconceived notions, stereotypical statements, people will always say, "I'm not a racist." Undoubtedly they are sincere--nobody consciously makes the decision to be racist--but unwittingly racism tarnishes nearly everything we say or do. That's a fact, and that's how insidious racism is.

We have to ask ourselves -- where does racism come from?

Modern Racism I would think comes from a mix of personal insecurity being transferred onto a collective sense of self-superiority. So the poor Chinese minimum wage worker cannot, in a culture where money is the measure of success, personally outdo the foreign middle class student, so instead they transfer their personal sense of inferiority into a collective of "We Chinese are better than you Westerners."

The same could be said for any other number of Racist Americans, especially the extremists who tend to be lower income earners.

To find a truly vocal, violent, upper class racist in the modern age is more rare. Sure, some people will have the sense of superiority, but generally on the top level income puts people as equals.

[Iain Sparrow]

Yep. "Institutionalized racism" so ingrained that most of us don't realize that we are racist. When confronted with verbal lapses, preconceived notions, stereotypical statements, people will always say, "I'm not a racist." Undoubtedly they are sincere--nobody consciously makes the decision to be racist--but unwittingly racism tarnishes nearly everything we say or do. That's a fact, and that's how insidious racism is.

We have to ask ourselves -- where does racism come from?


Our parents, friends and acquaintances, and the stereotypes that popular culture propagate.

Though to be fair, there's a reason stereotypes become stereotypes. I live downtown in a mostly white enclave in the historic district, but in a predominately black neighborhood. I like to think of myself as a very liberal person... it turns out not so liberal as I thought I was.:) Sometimes when I'm walking downtown I have to shake myself back to the present day because I could swear I just strolled into an old episode of Starsky & Hutch.

I will say one thing though, black folks are way more interesting than white people. It all comes down to not pretending people are all the same. That's the beauty of it.

[Volya]

Our parents, friends and acquaintances, and the stereotypes that popular culture propagate.

Though to be fair, there's a reason stereotypes become stereotypes. I live downtown in a mostly white enclave in the historic district, but in a predominately black neighborhood. I like to think of myself as a very liberal person... it turns out not so liberal as I thought I was.:) Sometimes when I'm walking downtown I have to shake myself back to the present day because I could swear I just strolled into an old episode of Starsky & Hutch.

I will say one thing though, black folks are way more interesting than white people. It all comes down to not pretending people are all the same. That's the beauty of it.

That right there would be a racist statement...

[Iain Sparrow]

That right there would be a racist statement...


That right there would be a politically correct statement...


Unfortunately these type of conversations usually turn out to be a contest about who can be more hip and politically correct. And it's always interesting, because by being politically correct and wishing more than anything not to offend someone, you help perpetuate the very thing you want to end.

[Volya]

I'm not being politically correct. Saying black people are more interesting than white people IS racist.

[Iain Sparrow]

I'm not being politically correct. Saying black people are more interesting than white people IS racist.

Well then, you're an exceptional person and free of all prejudice.

It must feel good.

[Babyguile]

That right there would be a politically correct statement...


Unfortunately these type of conversations usually turn out to be a contest about who can be more hip and politically correct. And it's always interesting, because by being politically correct and wishing more than anything not to offend someone, you help perpetuate the very thing you want to end.

Indeed. The politically correct left turn racism into a stage show. It's rather embarrassing to watch, as a fellow white person..

[Iain Sparrow]

Indeed. The politically correct left turn racism into a stage show. It's rather embarrassing to watch, as a fellow white person..


And I agree, and being a Liberal myself I find it all the more embarrassing.
People are not all the same, cultures are different, to pretend all things are equal is being less than honest.

But there's plenty of political correctness to go around here in America, Conservatives have their own cross to bear.

[Volya]

Well then, you're and exceptional person and free of all prejudice.

It must feel good.

Please explain how what you said is NOT racist instead of making childish remarks. Race has got nothing to do with how interesting a person is.

[Iain Sparrow]

My statements aren't childish nor do they lack merit. Remember, it was you who started the name calling.

Unlike most white folks who enter these type of discussions, I actually live in close quarters with black people and in a predominately African American neighborhood. I make pretty good wages and if I so choose, I could live in the suburbs where almost everyone is white. I'm a city person; I love the vitality and mix of people, it's full of life.

Black people on average are more interesting to me because they have it tougher than most white people, and they often have life experiences much different than my own. I find that compelling, that though we come from different cultures and backgrounds we still share core needs.

If you believe me a racist for having such feelings, well, that's your problem not mine.

[Volya]

Where the heck was I name calling...? I said you made a racist statement, that isn't name calling. And yes, your post was childish.

You may well have met more interesting black people than you have white people, using those experiences to generalize about the entire race is the racist bit. I've met more interesting white people than black people, I don't go around generalizing and saying 'white people are more interesting' because I've only met a tiny fraction of the entire population of white and black people in the world...

[Aere Perennius]

Our parents, friends and acquaintances, and the stereotypes that popular culture propagate.

Though to be fair, there's a reason stereotypes become stereotypes. I live downtown in a mostly white enclave in the historic district, but in a predominately black neighborhood. I like to think of myself as a very liberal person... it turns out not so liberal as I thought I was.:) Sometimes when I'm walking downtown I have to shake myself back to the present day because I could swear I just strolled into an old episode of Starsky & Hutch.

I will say one thing though, black folks are way more interesting than white people. It all comes down to not pretending people are all the same. That's the beauty of it.

I think the racism from your post comes from some subtle implications that these qualities you are witnessing — and these stereotypes you seem to believe are justified — are inherent within the race of the people upon whom you are observing; however, in fact, it is not the race, but the social and economic status and the relative locality of the group of people that is having a determined influence on their behavior.

Perhaps you did not mean it this way; and, indeed, if you didn't, you still neglected to recognize this important aspect. This leads to the conclusion that your post is racist as generally accurate, in my opinion.

[AuntShecky]

Beyond accusations, politically correct mantras, and self-righteous self-descriptions what are some proactive (rather than reactive) steps we can take to eliminate racism from first ourselves and then from society? I mean practical, rather than facilely rhetorical steps.

[Aere Perennius]

Beyond accusations, politically correct mantras, and self-righteous self-descriptions what are some proactive (rather than reactive) steps we can take to eliminate racism from first ourselves and then from society? I mean practical, rather than facilely rhetorical steps.

Despite your distaste, rhetoric is a very powerful tool when it comes to beliefs. 'Tis why many people start to believe their own lies. I have no doubt that, though political correctness can be irritating, it has made significant progressions in racial thinking — though progression it has not induced entirely.

But that's where a scientific understanding of race comes in! Economic equalization is also important, but it should be a result of racial harmony, not a step towards it: else wise it accomplishes even less than political correctness (that is a mere "sweeping under the rug" of certain pernicious attitudes).

This, however, is a topic of which I am totally unqualified to speak on. Still, it would be interesting to here other opinions on it as well.

[Volya]

I think it'll eliminate itself over time. Once all the laws are in place saying you can't discriminate and all that, future generations just tend get more and more accepting. Like how generations before me used to hate homosexuals, I don't know a single person my age who actually thinks there's a problem with being gay. Same with race.

[Delta40]

Since we have a tendecy form into groups and given that outgroups are consequently identified, isn't stereotyping a tough obstacle to overcome? It's not necessarily about race it can be gender, class, age and demographics also. I'm not aware that it's a reqirement to go through life free from any bias or prejudice or even if it's possible since we largely flock together with birds of the same feather.

My issue is when such prejudices result in unreasonable treatment of another group particularly as mentioned earlier through institutional means.

I never have to associate with a group that I doubt I would fit into for any reason but that doesn't mean I think the rules should be different or that my group should receive preferential treatment over other groups.

Being white makes one race neutral in the society I live in. I'm not typed as ethnic or coloured in anyway. Laws are passed based on reasonable thinking persons not groups to behave in such a way that uphold them but a reasonable thinking person is ultimately white and of no race or group which means white people decide what is best for other groups. There lies the danger.

White people who predominantly occupy positions decide what sort of protections other groups should or shouldn't have. The Liberal party has one Indigenous senator and his objections to the proposed changes to the RDA is a lone voice and met with mixed responses from the public as one would expect because bigots are everywhere fighting for their freedom of expression regardless of the impact it has on other people, how it silences them. They have the right to free speech but other groups don't necessarily have the same freedom to protest since those so called reasonable thinking people will not respond well to the applecart being upset. The result is a firmer, entrenched belief than they held before.

This is my concern. Asylum seekers are scum, they're moslem, they're terrorists. The govt just axed their right to legal access based on these beliefs. To me that isnt reasonable at all.

[Iain Sparrow]

Beyond accusations, politically correct mantras, and self-righteous self-descriptions what are some proactive (rather than reactive) steps we can take to eliminate racism from first ourselves and then from society? I mean practical, rather than facilely rhetorical steps.


Oh I think a great place to start would be more white people living in neighborhoods where they don't make up 90% of the population. We have economic and racial segregation in this country and that won't change until white people make a much greater effort to talk with, mix with, and live in close quarters with people of different races.

And I am just betting I'm the only one participating in this thread that lives in a predominately black neighborhood, does it by choice and not economic necessity, and actually rubs shoulders with, has conversations with, and lives side by side with people not of my race. And yet, I'm the racist.

Goodness me.

[Delta40]

Oh I think a great place to start would be more white people living in neighborhoods where they don't make up 90% of the population. We have economic and racial segregation in this country and that won't change until white people make a much greater effort to talk with, mix with, and live in close quarters with people of different races.

And I am just betting I'm the only one participating in this thread that lives in a predominately black neighborhood, does it by choice and not economic necessity, and actually rubs shoulders with, has conversations with, and lives side by side with people not of my race. And yet, I'm the racist.

Goodness me.

I didn't tag you racist but If I want to know about racism do you think I would ask a white person who has rubbed shoulders with blacks or the very people who cannot escape the oppressive racism itself? Your location might bring the mirror closer but that's it. You sir still enjoy white privilege as I do despite the fact that I too live in a similar area.

[Iain Sparrow]

I didn't tag you racist but If I want to know about racism do you think I would ask a white person who has rubbed shoulders with blacks or the very people who cannot escape the oppressive racism itself? Your location might bring the mirror closer but that's it. You sir still enjoy white privilege as I do despite the fact that I too live in a similar area.

Oh believe me I know, nor do I think for one minute that walking a mile in someone else's shoes makes a hill of beans.
Racism and poverty are fast friends, you can't hope to end the one without ending the other.

[Delta40]

Racism and poverty are fast friends, you can't hope to end the one without ending the other.

Would you mind clarifying this statement for my benefit?

[Volya]

I never called you racist. You probably aren't racist, you just happened to make a racist statement. Some of my closest friends are black. Just because you live around minorities doesn't mean you can't be racist (if anything it just proves my point about your statement being racist if only due to ignorance - if you associate predominantly with black people then of course you are going to know more interesting black people than white people).

[Gideonthenomad]

Purely out of curiosity, how many of the posters on this thread are nonwhite? I'll go first, I'm black.

[Iain Sparrow]

Purely out of curiosity, how many of the posters on this thread are nonwhite? I'll go first, I'm black.


oh-oh, seems this lively thread suddenly went quiet just when the discussion could get *real*.:)

I'd be very curious as to your response to this thread, basically mostly well insulated white people talking about black people and race relations?.. I'd be even more curious as to know what your parents went through when they were young, what kind of world did they grow up in?


And oh yeah... I voted for Obama.;)

[Gideonthenomad]

oh-oh, seems this lively thread suddenly went quiet just when the discussion could get *real*.:)

I'd be very curious as to your response to this thread, basically mostly well insulated white people talking about black people and race relations?.. I'd be even more curious as to know what your parents went through when they were young, what kind of world did they grow up in?


And oh yeah... I voted for Obama.;)

Well I should have elaborated... I'm black, but not American, I live in America now but I'm actually African, Ethiopian to be exact. So my experiences of race/racism in America are pretty much limited to the 3 years I've been here (you probably know more about race in America than I do). My parent's are both middle class, professionals, they grew up in Ethiopia. It did sound as if most of the posters were white (several actually said they were). I just wondered if there were any black people discussing the topic. Or any people of color, really.

If I could vote, I'dve voted for Obama. (Can't cause I'm a foreigner) :(

[Paulclem]

My personal experience of racism - I'm white - is of living and growing up in a racist community with racist parents of the annoying "I'm not racist but..." kind. I wasn't personally actively racist, and was hardly aware of the issue until I was much older. That doesn't mean I wasn't purely because we had racist terms embedded in the language we used. One term I remembered using as a kid was jewed - a verb derived from the word jew and denoting being conned. I remembered this a couple of years ago and was a bit shocked that I had used the term at school with all the other kids completely unaware of its racist origins. I'm from Yorkshire and the jewish population of York were notoriously murdered in 1190 by a mob led by a noble who was indebted to one of the jewish families at Clifford's Tower. I think it will be the moneylending which led to the conning aspect.

I think the point is that you have to be actively educated and made aware of racism and racist issues, and that a simple assumption that you are not racist is not enough. I would quite happily have used the word jewed to a jewish person because I would not have made that racist connection until I was made aware. I hear people say - a bit disappointingly really - that they can't understand why we don't have golliwogs in Enid Blyton's books, as soft toys or advertising a brand of jam here in the UK whilst claiming they are not racist. That they don't realise it is racist is besides the point. I what then makes you an active racist is when you know and then continue to think, use and believe it.

[Gideonthenomad]

One funny thing I've noticed. In all the countries I've lived in, there tends to be a group of people who you can't really find good jokes about (good offensive jokes that is). That group tends to be the dominant group in that particular society. So in Ethiopia, for instance, you have racist jokes that follow the "so an X, a Y and a Z walk into a bar" template (X, Y and Z being various ethnic groups). But its always the Y and the Z that make fools of themselves, the X (X generally being Amhara) comes out looking good. In Ethiopia the Amhara have been historically dominant, which I think explains it. In the USA, I've found, there is a dearth of jokes about white people. I don't know if this is significant... o_0

[tonywalt]

One funny thing I've noticed. In all the countries I've lived in, there tends to be a group of people who you can't really find good jokes about (good offensive jokes that is). That group tends to be the dominant group in that particular society. So in Ethiopia, for instance, you have racist jokes that follow the "so an X, a Y and a Z walk into a bar" template (X, Y and Z being various ethnic groups). But its always the Y and the Z that make fools of themselves, the X (X generally being Amhara) comes out looking good. In Ethiopia the Amhara have been historically dominant, which I think explains it. In the USA, I've found, there is a dearth of jokes about white people. I don't know if this is significant... o_0

A dearth of jokes about white people. LOL - I am laughing now.

[Aere Perennius]

And I am just betting I'm the only one participating in this thread that lives in a predominately black neighborhood, does it by choice and not economic necessity, and actually rubs shoulders with, has conversations with, and lives side by side with people not of my race. And yet, I'm the racist.

Goodness me.

Much like the old tale of the white man who, by choice, lived among the savages of Africa: this does not make you anti-racist.

By the way, I am of color (Black and Mexican; I live in the USA). Though, to be truthful, I do not want to harp on you as you are, indeed, probably very accepting compared to the standard American. I just wished to clarify for you that your locality and societal situations do not make you, by default, racist or not; it's views and attitude entirely.

[Iain Sparrow]

Much like the old tale of the white man who, by choice, lived among the savages of Africa: this does not make you anti-racist.

But it does potentially make him less of a hypocrite.
Certainly he becomes more worldly for the experience. Perhaps he doesn't grow as a person like we'd have him grow, but I'd say better that than the person who reckons himself or herself pure where prejudice and racism are concerned and yet live lives apart from people who are not of the same race.


By the way, I am of color (Black and Mexican; I live in the USA). Though, to be truthful, I do not want to harp on you as you are, indeed, probably very accepting compared to the standard American. I just wished to clarify for you that your locality and societal situations do not make you, by default, racist or not; it's views and attitude entirely.

My point is, or one of my points is that there are many white folks who believe they're free of prejudice, but aside from one or two coworkers, or classmates, or the black family that live down the street... they have almost no real day-to-day contact with blacks or black culture. Sort of like the person who believes they can swim really well, but they've never been to the ocean... some of you need to be thrown into the sea. Then we'll see how well you can swim.:)

[qimissung]

One funny thing I've noticed. In all the countries I've lived in, there tends to be a group of people who you can't really find good jokes about (good offensive jokes that is). That group tends to be the dominant group in that particular society. So in Ethiopia, for instance, you have racist jokes that follow the "so an X, a Y and a Z walk into a bar" template (X, Y and Z being various ethnic groups). But its always the Y and the Z that make fools of themselves, the X (X generally being Amhara) comes out looking good. In Ethiopia the Amhara have been historically dominant, which I think explains it. In the USA, I've found, there is a dearth of jokes about white people. I don't know if this is significant... o_0

White person here. This is so true. We're going to be stuck with just lawyer jokes, soon. Not that there's anything wrong with that. :D There is a book-it's been out a while-called "The History of White People in America" by Martin Mull. Does it count if we're making fun of ourselves?

[Lykren]

There's also the blog "Stuff White People Like."

[Iain Sparrow]

White person here. This is so true. We're going to be stuck with just lawyer jokes, soon. Not that there's anything wrong with that. :D There is a book-it's been out a while-called "The History of White People in America" by Martin Mull. Does it count if we're making fun of ourselves?



Yeah... and don't for a second think us white folks living here in Dixie don't know it.:)
Y'all make all kinds of unkind jokes about us Southerners!:)

Things you will never hear a person in the Deep South say...

- Duct tape won't fix that.

- Come to think of it, I'll have a Heineken.

- We don't keep firearms in the house.

- You can't feed that to the dog.

- The kids can't ride in the back of the pickup -- it's just not safe.

- Honey, did you mail that donation to Greenpeace?

- We're vegetarians.

- Honey, we don't need another dog.

- Who's Richard Petty?

- I just couldn't find a thing at Wal-Mart today

- Is there anything in this restaurant that's NOT fried?

- The tires on that truck are too big.

- There's too much sugar in this tea.

- Where did I leave my library card?

- Checkmate.

[Delta40]

At the moment in Oz we're calling our PM a white pommy c unt or bastard because of the repeal. He reckons it's ok so his race came up for question as a result and people have informally stripped him of his citizenship through social media. Now the PM has set guidelines that forbids any public servant from saying anti govt things even anonymously through social media otherwise they could lose their job. So you can be racist here but you can't criticise the government!

[Lokasenna]

One funny thing I've noticed. In all the countries I've lived in, there tends to be a group of people who you can't really find good jokes about (good offensive jokes that is). That group tends to be the dominant group in that particular society. So in Ethiopia, for instance, you have racist jokes that follow the "so an X, a Y and a Z walk into a bar" template (X, Y and Z being various ethnic groups). But its always the Y and the Z that make fools of themselves, the X (X generally being Amhara) comes out looking good. In Ethiopia the Amhara have been historically dominant, which I think explains it. In the USA, I've found, there is a dearth of jokes about white people. I don't know if this is significant... o_0

White person here to.

In the UK, variations of this joke are usually based on an Englishman, a Scotsman, and a Welshman or Irishman walking into a bar... guess who always comes off best, and who worst.

As a Welshman living in the far north of England, I quite often get a fair bit of good-natured abuse for being Welsh from my friends - though never from strangers, perhaps because I don't have an accent.

[Scout85]

My statements aren't childish nor do they lack merit. Remember, it was you who started the name calling.

Unlike most white folks who enter these type of discussions, I actually live in close quarters with black people and in a predominately African American neighborhood. I make pretty good wages and if I so choose, I could live in the suburbs where almost everyone is white. I'm a city person; I love the vitality and mix of people, it's full of life.

Black people on average are more interesting to me because they have it tougher than most white people, and they often have life experiences much different than my own. I find that compelling, that though we come from different cultures and backgrounds we still share core needs.

If you believe me a racist for having such feelings, well, that's your problem not mine.

I'm sorry, but you seem to be making a huge point about how you are SO unracist you even live amongst the black people. Any statement that involves the words 'lots of my friends are black...' usually ends up with some kind of awkward racism.
I'm white, I have no idea what kind of community I live in, we just all live here.

[Iain Sparrow]

I'm sorry, but you seem to be making a huge point about how you are SO unracist you even live amongst the black people. Any statement that involves the words 'lots of my friends are black...' usually ends up with some kind of awkward racism.
I'm white, I have no idea what kind of community I live in, we just all live here.


Oh gawd... if that isn't the most politically correct statement of this thread, I don't know what is.

Of course you know full well "what kind of community" you live in, and I'm guessing it's almost entirely white. It's really, really neat that you've learned to live so harmoniously... with other white people.:D



Yesterday when I was outside doing the gardening... a butterfly landed on my nose.
It was just then that I realized; that within the butterfly's wings, I could see all the colors of the rainbow... like all the beautiful people of the world living together in peace.

There we go, that is now the most politically correct comment you're bound to hear on this thread, but perhaps not.:)

[Jackson Richardson]

And it's always interesting, because by being politically correct and wishing more than anything not to offend someone, you help perpetuate the very thing you want to end.

That is a very interesting point. I'm always wary of people (I'm thinking of the Daily Mail over here in the UK) rubbishing political correctness because it really means they think racism etc is not a problem.

But there are times when someone who is not the minority in question uses pc concepts to show their own self righteousness.

[Gideonthenomad]

White person here to.

In the UK, variations of this joke are usually based on an Englishman, a Scotsman, and a Welshman or Irishman walking into a bar... guess who always comes off best, and who worst.

As a Welshman living in the far north of England, I quite often get a fair bit of good-natured abuse for being Welsh from my friends - though never from strangers, perhaps because I don't have an accent.

Ha, I used to live in England. The Welsh do seem to get made fun of, although England never produced anyone as cool as Tom Jones (in my opinion).

Speaking of accents, when I first read Lord of the Rings as a kid, I imagined the elves, Gandalf and most of the Race of men speaking in BBC, the Dwarves sounded vaguely northern (some sort of mancunian/liverpool thing) and the hobbits sounded... wait for it... Welsh. I'm sure now I got all those accents off of TV shows, though why I associated them the way I did-- God knows.

[R.F. Schiller]

A lot of you probably live in other countries, but as a Chinese-Canadian, I can proudly say that I've suffered very little racism in my life, partially because Canada is the most multicultural country in the world. I feel like a lot of "Racism" nowadays, especially in America, is overcompensation for the atrocities committed by the Caucasian population towards the African-American population throughout their history. Any type of generalization, even if supported by statistics, if considered racist nowadays, which I find somewhat annoying. Society is also trying to put out the fact that there are no differences between races, which in my opinion, is untrue. Besides obvious genetic factors, different races tend to also be indoctrinated by a certain culture, which creates more differences. I personally rarely get offended by any supposedly "racist" statements made towards Asians. If I was denied from a job, or a school because of my race, that would be another question.

[Gideonthenomad]

A lot of you probably live in other countries, but as a Chinese-Canadian, I can proudly say that I've suffered very little racism in my life, partially because Canada is the most multicultural country in the world. I feel like a lot of "Racism" nowadays, especially in America, is overcompensation for the atrocities committed by the Caucasian population towards the African-American population throughout their history. Any type of generalization, even if supported by statistics, if considered racist nowadays, which I find somewhat annoying. Society is also trying to put out the fact that there are no differences between races, which in my opinion, is untrue. Besides obvious genetic factors, different races tend to also be indoctrinated by a certain culture, which creates more differences. I personally rarely get offended by any supposedly "racist" statements made towards Asians. If I was denied from a job, or a school because of my race, that would be another question.

Why are you proud of not having suffered racism? That's not an accomplishment. Not being racist might be something to be proud of. What do you mean by racism as overcompensation? Are white people over compensating? Or is it black people who are overcompensating? If so, are you saying the main purveyors of racism in America are black people?

Generalizations supported by statistics? Obvious genetic factors? Indoctrination? Please don't beat around the bush. Be specific, this is an open forum, you are anonymous. What are you trying to say?

[Clopin]

I'm called white everywhere I go, and people all think I'm illiterate, licentious, stupid, and rich. Strangely, before moving to China I had never identified myself as "white", and certainly never as "foreign", or "American", or "Western" given my mixed cultural background, multicultural upbringing, and pluralistic attitudes toward life. But when I go attend a lecture, somehow all eyes give me the "what is the white guy doing here" look, as if white people just cannot understand.

Then again, these petty complaints must be nothing compared to the abuse various minorities feel on a daily basis. I would say the experience has perhaps made me more sensitive to my own racial assumptions.

Right! Because an Asian person studying in Canada is such an oddity to everyone and faces so much abuse right? I think not.

[Clopin]

Anyway as far as racism goes I believe there are real differences between different racial groups and that even a cursory glance reveals this. To me people who believe that men, women and all races are "equal" (meaning, identical, and not 'equal in value' or 'equally deserving of respect') are reminiscent of creationists; they believe something because they don't like the alternative, and not because the evidence supports what they believe. As to what these differences entail I give little thought and I do not consciously treat people differently who belong to different racial groups. I would also violently oppose any racially motivated poltical platforms or any attempt - by a group of individuals or the state - to reduce the status of people who make up a minority ethnic group. I suppose that makes me some sort of a racist but I believe in equal rights and treatment for everyone.

Now... when we come to culture I am very pro Western Europe in a way many ignoramuses like to claim is racist. Whatever. Go to India, Vietnam, Africa and the Middle East or China and tell me if interacting with the people there changes your mind. I have found that Asians in China and Vietnam are pitiless and culturally alien to me (I do not notice this in the least in Chinese peole who live or grew up in Canada). I have no tolerance for 'dead white male' bashing ultra liberal twenty somethings who will cheer people like Achmadinejad when they speak in American universities and I believe that the modern west is the most racially accepting, pro equality, pro feminist and the most prosperous, free and greatest society in the history of the world to date bar none.

Would any of this be conceivable today in England, America, Canada or France?

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HLIYMUN_vvY

Repulsive.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HLIYMUN_vvY

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HLIYMUN_vvY

[Delta40]

I was robbed by an Indigenous person last week. My feelings about this are quite simply this. There are many good people in this world regardless of races and there are some *******s too. Regarding this woman I know she has put her people to shame. If caught by the Police she will face white justice, if caught by her people she will face spiritual shaming - a terrifying prospect, maybe a beating with sticks and finally permanent outcast from her clan. This is justice as far as I am concerned and it is it the one thing we people have in common. No wrongdoing should go unpunished. In this country Indigenous people suffer ongoing deprivation of liberties and rights with a shoe string budget. It simply isn't going to help the community at large if I launch a hate campaign based on the actions of one person. I would do an enire race of people a gross disservice and I couldn't live with myself.

[mal4mac]

Oh gawd... if that isn't the most politically correct statement of this thread...

Please stop calling people 'politically correct' when they are just 'correct'.

[mal4mac]

A lot of you probably live in other countries, but as a Chinese-Canadian, I can proudly say that I've suffered very little racism in my life, partially because Canada is the most multicultural country in the world.

That's Canadist.

[cacian]

racism facism they are one and the same. here is how:
the facist dictates
and the
racist does.
I wonder if they would ever outdo each other and end up getting rid of each other. it is bound to happen. it happened before and it will happen again.

[Clopin]

Why are you proud of not having suffered racism? That's not an accomplishment. Not being racist might be something to be proud of. What do you mean by racism as overcompensation? Are white people over compensating? Or is it black people who are overcompensating? If so, are you saying the main purveyors of racism in America are black people?

Generalizations supported by statistics? Obvious genetic factors? Indoctrination? Please don't beat around the bush. Be specific, this is an open forum, you are anonymous. What are you trying to say?

Well maybe I can answer for him on a few of his points.

"Generalizations supported by statistics?"

This brings to mind one of the many unfortunate statements Rick Santorum made during the GOP cycle a few years back. He said that Michelle and Barrack Obamas relationship could serve as a role model for African American families where a full 75% consist of a single mother and absentee father in America. Commenting on this was seen as somehow racist, but it was just a statistic.

"Obvious genetic factors?"

Yes, or does Kenya just have really good national running programs?

[OrphanPip]

The problem with generalizing on the basis of race is that race is an unscientific and poorly defined concept that arises from a conveniently oversimplified notion of human diversity. One, the idea of race relies on a fundamental misunderstanding of population genetics and the relationship between different human genetic groups. Two, it obscures ingroup difference. And three, it often groups people based on arbitrary visible phenotypes which are only marginally effective markers of genetic relatedness.

[Clopin]

You realise that all generalizations obscure ingroup differences right? Obviously there is a problem in making any generalization but I can still say with confidence that 'The Dutch are taller than Indonesians' and 'Kenyans are better distance runners than Chinese'

[Ecurb]

Kenya is a nation, not a race. Kenya's neighbors Uganda, Tanzania, Rwanda and Burundi haven't had nearly the gold medal haul that Kenya (and Ethiopia) have had. So, yes, it might seem that there's something about the NATION of Kenya that produces good distance runners, at least compared to some of their neighbors (who probably have similar genetic maekups).

When I was a child, anthropologists still used the concept of "race" to describe human genetic diversity. The four basic races were "caucasoid, mongoloid, negroid and aboriginal". Modern DNA testing has proved beyond any doubt that this is a lousy way to describe human genetic diversity. Two "caucasoids" (based on phenotype) are very likely to be more genetically dissimilar than many caucasoids are from mongoloids or negroids. Once we could actually look at DNA, it became obvious that our old theories about race were incorrect, from a genetic perspective. Modern anthropologists talk about "gene clines" and other complicated models to more accurately describe human genetic diversity.

Of course this is not to say that "race" (based on phenotype rather than genotype) is meaningless from a cultural perspective.

[Clopin]

*Yawn* and God created the world in six days and on the seventh day he rested. Believing crazy things because the facts make you uncomfortable or disagree with what you want to be true is pretty stupid.

[OrphanPip]

*Yawn* and God created the world in six days and on the seventh day he rested. Believing crazy things because the facts make you uncomfortable or disagree with what you want to be true is pretty stupid.

When did a contemporary understanding of the nuances of population genetics become a "crazy thing"? Race is not a coherent standard, evident by your confusion of ethnicity with race in previous posts.

[Clopin]

I didn't confuse anything. Kenya is a region in Africa and due to their genetics the people who inhabit that region are specially suited to be runners. I guess the fact that they largely have the same body type, skeletal density and limb lengths are all "social constructs" right?

[OrphanPip]

I didn't confuse anything. Kenya is a region in Africa and due to their genetics the people who inhabit that region are specially suited to be runners. I guess the fact that they largely have the same body type, skeletal density and limb lengths are all "social constructs" right?

The borders of Kenya were determined by European diplomats at the Berlin Conference in 1884 and bisect regions inhabited by multiple ethnic groups. Secondly, I have not once denied biological difference, only that race is not a useful or scientifically tenable term when it comes to biology. Saying Kenyans are good runners is practically a useless generalization. Does this trend hold across all Kenyans regardless of various ethnic differences?

You are committing to the most basic weakness of race as a concept. You have identified one phenotype, running ability, and used it as a marker of a genetic group with complete disregard for distribution of other genetic factors, not to mention cultural and linguistic factors (which you are probably as ignorant of in the case of Kenya as I am). We learned over the course of the 20th century that the basic concept of skin colour as a racial marker lead to deep misunderstandings of the genetic relatedness between groups. There is a greater genetic diversity within Africa than all of Europe, yet the traditional racial conception of Black and White obscures the fact that some haplogroups in Africa are more closely related to large portions of the European population than they are to other groups in Africa.

Why is running ability a more important marker of a racial group than, say, some distribution of a blood factor which might result in a completely different cross-section of East African populations? Why does that running ability make Kenyan a race?

[Clopin]

From what I've read the Kenyans who are successul marathon runners are largely members of one specific tribe, which could account for certain insular genetic proclivities which manifest in very good charateristics for endurance running.

"There is a greater genetic diversity within Africa than all of Europe, yet the traditional racial conception of Black and White obscures the fact that some haplogroups in Africa are more closely related to large portions of the European population than they are to other groups in Africa.*'

Okay, but that miscoception is a separate issue. I only want to convince you that genetic differences between peoples of different ehnic groups (or races) are factual.

[Clopin]

And the running was just an example of people who are genetically better adapted for a specific task.

[Ecurb]

From what I've read the Kenyans who are successul marathon runners are largely members of one specific tribe, which could account for certain insular genetic proclivities which manifest in very good charateristics for endurance running.

"There is a greater genetic diversity within Africa than all of Europe, yet the traditional racial conception of Black and White obscures the fact that some haplogroups in Africa are more closely related to large portions of the European population than they are to other groups in Africa.*'

Okay, but that miscoception is a separate issue. I only want to convince you that genetic differences between peoples of different ehnic groups (or races) are factual.

Nobody doubts that there are genetic differences between (and among) human groups. What is unclear is that these genetic differences make Kenyans superior distance runners. We know that Kenyans ARE superior distance runners. However, there are dozens of hypotheses that could explain their superiority -- all of them equally as untested as your hypthesis of genetic superiority. Here are a couple:

1) Kenyans emphasize distance running as a popular sport, so a high percentage of those Kenyans with a genetic predisposition for excellence on the track take up the sport at an early age. In many countries, nobody wants to be a distance runner except a few masochistic whackos.

2) Most Kenyans live at high altitudes, which improves training and conditions efficient oxygen use from an early age.

3) Kenyans have a highly developed distance running program, which uses the best training techniques (including, perhaps, performance enhancing drugs, which also seems a more likely reason for Jamaicans' sprinting superiority than genoptype).

There are a dozen more hypotheses that are all equally credible. Your hypothesis ("It must be genetic") is simply an unconfirmed guess; it might be correct, it might not be correct. After all, the anthropologists who went around the world measuring skull shapes, nose shapes, ratios of various bones, etc. to come up with their "four races" description of human genetic diversity were not morons -- they were smart, successful scientists. They were also wrong. You are making similar mistakes in assuming that phenotype ("bone density") is necessarily the result of genotype.

Are we to believe that Americans have a genetic predisposition for baseball and football playing? Are the genes in Brazil particularly suited to soccer? Perhaps Chinese have developed their excellence in ping pong due to some genetic predisposition for hand-eye coordination. There is little evidence that "running (is) an example of people who are genetically better adapted." Why would genetics be the only reasonable explanation?

[Clopin]

"Nobody doubts that there are genetic differences between (and among) human groups."

Haha oh well a lot of people certainly do doubt that, but okay if you don't then we agree.

As to the sports at the end, Americans are not a race (like I said earlier the Kenyans who do well in international sports are largely members of one tribe not just passport holders) most NBA players especially are African in origin while most NHL players are of European descent. Ping Pong is a niche sport the rest of the world largely does not care about or participate in. Soccer is rather the opposite and since Brazil does not win or make top threeish in every iternational soccer event in the world they certainly don't hold the same dominance as Kenya does over endurance running.

You're right that there are other explanations but to me theories like "kenyans run a lot because there's nothing to do there" are pretty unconvincing. All Olympic athletes train a lot...

[Pumpkin337]

Has any one ever considered the possibility that people of all skin colours / ethnic groups / cultures can be racist towards other people of a different skin colours / ethnic group / culture? Considering some one else not you as less than you is something that all groups do. It helps with group bonding to have an outsider the group bonds against and it helps the group feel better about themselves as well as providing a convenient scapegoat for all that is wrong in the world. This is universal human behaviour. It's not right, on whatever scale it occurs, but it is universal and no-one is exempt.

[Iain Sparrow]

Has any one ever considered the possibility that people of all skin colours / ethnic groups / cultures can be racist towards other people of a different skin colours / ethnic group / culture? Considering some one else not you as less than you is something that all groups do. It helps with group bonding to have an outsider the group bonds against and it helps the group feel better about themselves as well as providing a convenient scapegoat for all that is wrong in the world. This is universal human behaviour. It's not right, on whatever scale it occurs, but it is universal and no-one is exempt.


Very true, and as old as history itself.
A while back I was reading a history of the Silk Road; they've unearthed manuscripts where the writer is describing first contact with northern europeans... and describe these odd people in very unflattering terms, comparing them to monkeys.

[Whosis]

It is impossible, especially when young, not to notice the differences between the different races and possibly to make judgments. That being said, I know that skin tone in particular is made up in the DNA of only a small part (I forget the figure) so that we cannot all be that different. I try not to pass obscenities on other people based on race, although just like with rednecks, for example, it is hard for me not to make some judgments internally about them. It can still be fun to criticize the differences of other, such as Russell Peters and Lisa Lampanelli do. Variety is the spice of life.

[Iain Sparrow]

It is impossible, especially when young, not to notice the differences between the different races and possibly to make judgments. That being said, I know that skin tone in particular is made up in the DNA of only a small part (I forget the figure) so that we cannot all be that different. I try not to pass obscenities on other people based on race, although just like with rednecks, for example, it is hard for me not to make some judgments internally about them. It can still be fun to criticize the differences of other, such as Russell Peters and Lisa Lampanelli do. Variety is the spice of life.

The important differences are cultural... and I think fair game for prejudice and judgments.
Heck, there's some enormous differences in culture and behavior even between white people. Some people think the Amish are these quaint, charming folks who should be left alone to live and worship as they wish. I think the Amish people are obscene, and their religious beliefs inherently damaging to girls and women. If the Amish people were mostly dark skinned, that statement would probably come off as racist.
I don't think any of us are immune to feeling superior to other people.:)

[tonywalt]

...............and