Profanity in Literature

[108 fountains]

An ongoing thread discussing obscenity in literature got me to thinking about the proliferation of profanity in literature that I’ve noticed in recent years, and thought it might be a worthwhile topic for Forum discussion.

Personally, I see little need or use to fill novels or stories with four-letter words, whether they are spelled out in letters or asterisks. I can understand, perhaps, if a writer uses profanity in dialogue that is meant to be gritty and realistic, or if a writer intends to portray the same attributes when writing in the first person, although it is my own opinion that a good writer can convey the same ideas without resorting to profanity. Moreover, it seems to me that I come across more and more profanity in literature that serves no particular purpose whatsoever. To me, that demeans both the reader and the writer.

I’ll admit that I am old and that I am old-fashioned. I still remember the first time I heard the song “Working Class Hero” by John Lennon. I was shocked by the line, “You’re still f***g peasants as far as I can see.” Of course, he intended to shock his listeners, and it worked – I am referring to it here more than 30 years since the release of the Plastic Ono Band album. But long gone are the days when profanity in literature (including song lyrics) induced any sort of shock in readers or listeners. So if it is not intended as shock value, what then is its purpose? Personally, I don’t see any purpose or value in it. I don’t like Hip-Hop, in part, because the song lyrics are so laced with profanity. And profanity in literature has become so common these days that it doesn’t shock me either. I am not at all advocating censorship. I believe artists and writers should be able to express themselves freely in whatever form they feel best expresses themselves. But this glut of profanity in modern literature makes me feel disappointed – no, dismayed – that modern writers are unable to express themselves without resorting to profanity. To me, it is a matter of taste. I find unnecessary profanity to be tasteless. I wonder what other Forum participants think.

[YesNo]

I agree that profanity is best used within quotes from a character. The narrator should not use it unless the narrator can be viewed as a sort of character, but perhaps all narrators are charactors. If the narrator starts using profanity, I assume the narrator is a character and I start doubting the narrator's authority at portraying the story accurately.

[mal4mac]

Why be so upset about a word that refers to a normal act that, mostly, doesn't hurt anyone? People throw around phrases like, "the traffic was murder", and "I could kill for a pint of beer". Why aren't words like "murder" and "kill" profane? I'm old, but the f-word doesn't bother me at all. I heard Lennon's wonderful song when it first came out and I didn't even blink. Maybe it's looked upon as "not done" in the bible belt of America. But this really is a fuss over nothing, in my opinion.

[AuntShecky]

I don't mind the occasional profanity if it fits the context, but when it's used excessively, it's a signal that the writer has a limited vocabulary. Sometimes writers and artists let the lack of external censorship go to their heads and overdo it. For instance, I really enjoy watching some of the miniseries on HBO, but I do believe the screenwriters put an abundance of f-bombs and the like in there because "they can."

[glennr25]

As AuntShecky mentioned, profanity in literature is best used in moderation, rather, as a way to describe the characters' thought process with emphasis. If used too much it runs the risk of undermining the whole point the author is trying to make.

[kev67]

If it a portrayal of realistic speech or even thought processes then it is justified. If it is realistic then I would rather the swear words were printed then asterisks or a word 'obscenity', as was used by Hemmingway in For Whom the Bell Tolls. Irvine Welsh's Trainspotting was packed with obscenities, but that was the way those characters would speak. The characters swear a lot in Paddy Doyle's Barrytown trilogy, but that is realistic. When it is not necessary then I would rather not have it. I have watched rom-coms before that I thought were spolit a bit by unnecessary profanity.

[Gabriel Esteves]

I think the great problem about "obscenity" in literature is it's own triviality. There's no "shock" in doing what is completely normal in an everyday dialogue, and repetition just produces mass literature, that is entertainment, and that's ok, but nothing that will persist for centuries (it will never be a classic). The less an author utilizes explicit sexual scenes, for exemple, the most he will seek for a way-out to show what is the scene about. Surely that's only applicable in literature of our time, it was very new talking about sex in the XIX century! Looking that way, obscenity can be very productive and can estimulate great discussions about sentiments, writing styles, techiniques, etc. I don't want to be the guy labeling literature, anyway; I mean, it's all about style. Which one your prefer, that's the best for you.

[glennr25]

I think the great problem about "obscenity" in literature is it's own triviality. There's no "shock" in doing what is completely normal in an everyday dialogue, and repetition just produces mass literature, that is entertainment, and that's ok, but nothing that will persist for centuries (it will never be a classic). The less an author utilizes explicit sexual scenes, for exemple, the most he will seek for a way-out to show what is the scene about. Surely that's only applicable in literature of our time, it was very new talking about sex in the XIX century! Looking that way, obscenity can be very productive and can estimulate great discussions about sentiments, writing styles, techiniques, etc. I don't want to be the guy labeling literature, anyway; I mean, it's all about style. Which one your prefer, that's the best for you.

I agree completely. It all depends on the situation the character(s) finds himself in. If you find yourself on the wrong end of a shootout, there's a good chance you're not going to be thinking very nice words in your head to describe the situation. On the other hand if you're sitting down in the living room enjoying a cup of tea with dear old mom, there's also a good chance you won't be talking to her in an obscene way. It's all a matter of context, and if the situation calls for the use of profanity or obscene acts. This is what any writer/director should strive towards to make their stories as believable as possible.

[stlukesguild]

We should remember that what we speak of as "profanity" is not something new to literature. Greek, Roman, Medieval (Chaucer?) and later (Lawrence Sterne, Jonathan Swift, John Wilmot...) was laden with profanity and vulgarity. Some was intended to shock... but a great deal was intended to convey a greater degree of realism. If the characters in a work speak a certain way, one way of capturing or conveying this character is to employ his or her manner of speech. We see this in Chaucer where different characters speak in a different manner and employ different vocabulary. If I were portraying one of my tough, inner-city, urban, teen-aged students, it would be as absurd to clean up their speech and have them exclaim, "Well golly gee wizz, Mr. K.!" as it would to have them intone, "Thou naughty varlet!" or "By Gis and by Saint Charity, Alack, and fie for shame!"

[mortalterror]

Profanity in the Old Testament:

Interestingly, the Bible contains different words and phrases that can be equated to today's profanity without using the same words. For example, an angry King Saul called his son, "You son of a perverse and rebellious woman," which sounds an awful lot like "SOB" (I Samuel 20:30). "Two smoldering stubs of firewood" (Isaiah 7:4) is used similarly to calling someone a piece of s@#$. "Am I a dog's head?" sounds very much like asking, "Am I a jack@$$?" (II Samuel 3:8). Asking "What are those feeble Jews doing?" sounds very much like a racial slur (Nehemiah 4:2). http://www.ehow.com/about_4599931_profanity-used-bible.html

Profanity in Catullus:
Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo. -Carmen 16

Archilochus uses profanity when he loses his shield on the battlefield and elsewhere describes graphic sex acts and bodily fluids. I don't feel like hunting for it now, but I'd be surprised if two soldiers didn't insult each other somewhere in Homer's Iliad. StLukesGuild is right, profanity in literature is not a new thing.

[Lykren]

But this glut of profanity in modern literature makes me feel disappointed – no, dismayed – that modern writers are unable to express themselves without resorting to profanity. To me, it is a matter of taste. I find unnecessary profanity to be tasteless. I wonder what other Forum participants think.

I myself am disappointed that English Romantic poets were unable to express themselves without resorting to descriptions of the natural world.

No, seriously, how is one mode of expression superior to the other? The last chapter of Ulysses is divine, and includes a wonderful usage of the phrase "lick my sh*t". In fact I'll quote from that same chapter here:

"...I heard those cornerboys saying passing the corner of Marrowbone lane my aunt Mary has a thing hairy because it was dark and they knew a girl was passing it didnt make me blush why should it either its only nature..."

Indeed. There is nothing preventing one from swearing creatively and well. As for unnecessary profanity being tasteless, that seems like a tautology to me. Unnecessary words of any kind in a text indicate a lack of taste, not just profanity.

[WICKES]

.

Personally, I see little need or use to fill novels or stories with four-letter words, whether they are spelled out in letters or asterisks. I can understand, perhaps, if a writer uses profanity in dialogue that is meant to be gritty and realistic, or if a writer intends to portray the same attributes when writing in the first person, although it is my own opinion that a good writer can convey the same ideas without resorting to profanity. .

Context is everything. Personally I don't have a problem with it. If an author (or musician or artist) is simply trying to shock, well, then it can be irritating and even a little pathetic (like an adolescent showing off to his friends). Here in the UK there are loads of hip young artists centred on London who are always in the news because they have produced some (yawn) 'outrageous' work of art that they seem to think 'is gonna shock the squares'. In fact, this particular square is always just bored. But I have read books that disturbed me and that I felt were an evil influence, books that I wish weren't out there in the world- but never because they used 4 letter words. What is the worst that can happen? Someone starts swearing a bit more?! It is when a work of art glorifies and encourages violence, cruelty, rape etc that I feel uneasy. Take a novel like Lady Chatterley's Lover. There were attempts to have this banned because Lawrence used sexually explicit language. The male lover talks about the woman '****ting' and uses the words '****' and '****'. But this is within a loving, tender, mutually respectful relationship. I doubt anyone has ever been influenced to behave worse after reading the novel. Whereas there is a Bukowski novel in which he boasts about rape. He doesn't use any explicit language, yet I find that far, far more disturbing than the Lawrence passages. Or take Fanny Hill. I have always disliked that novel intensely. Essentially it is the story of a very young girl (14 or 15) whose parents die and who is tricked into prostitution. She doesn't choose the life from a position of strength and independence. People take advantage of her vulnerable position and the author simply accepts this as perfectly normal. Again, there is very little 'dirty' or crude language in the novel but, if I got my kicks from abusing vulnerable girls, I'd take this novel as a green light.

[Dono]

Unlike real life, literature must make sense and words must drive the story. Profanity in most cases is a useless filler, and generally shows the writer to be an amateur who can't shut off his or her own inner voice long enough to hear the voice of the character. Cursing has a place in writing, but is best used sparingly. The argument that one must make the dialogue sound "realistic" is a lazy argument.

[Frostball]

As for unnecessary profanity being tasteless, that seems like a tautology to me. Unnecessary words of any kind in a text indicate a lack of taste, not just profanity.

This is what came to my mind right when reading the OP. In my opinion, there is literally no distinction between obscenity and regular language. Every word is just a word that has definitions, connotations, and expresses some kind of communication. The dichotomy between "nice" words and "bad" words strikes me as entirely artificial and cultural. All while I was growing up I wondered why certain sounds uttered by me could get me in trouble, when it clearly does absolutely nothing to anybody.

Lykren has it right, it isn't overusing profanity that is a problem, it's overusing any word that makes an author comes off as amateurish, lazy, and uncreative. So to the question of whether or not authors should use profanity my answer is a definite "why not?"

[Jes Grew]

We should remember that what we speak of as "profanity" is not something new to literature. Greek, Roman, Medieval (Chaucer?) and later (Lawrence Sterne, Jonathan Swift, John Wilmot...)

Don't forget Voltaire. I instantly thought of John Wilmot, Earl of Rochester. Though he wasn't accepted as literature until hundreds of years later. Sometimes profanity is perfect (like Burroughs) but it definitely depends on context. Think of "Tropic of Cancer." Any omittance of profanity would ruin the effect. But, I agree, anyone who is using profanity in the third person either lacks vocabulary, content, or is downright lazy. There's too many words to choose from.

If it's in speech I have no complaints, because most people today (and I'm assuming in the past) have spoken with profanity in everyday speech at some point.

[Lykren]

But, I agree, anyone who is using profanity in the third person either lacks vocabulary, content, or is downright lazy. There's too many words to choose from.

And how did you come to make this assumption? I don't see how a trivial technical distinction like writing in the third person as opposed to the first would suddenly render the same diction ineffective.

[kelby_lake]

Four-letter words, or 'Ango-Saxon words' if we are to quote the Chatterley trial, are a part of everyday language. Four-letter words are aggressive; picking a substitute word would dilute it. There's no need for censorship now; we're not writing purely for a middle-class churchgoing audience any more. Literature doesn't need to be polite.

[ennison]

It's not just Mr Trainspotting's characters who speak like that; he does himself. Low lives do. I agree with the first voice on this thread. Most modern Scottish so-called lit is nasty brutish deliberately grim and devoid of either humour or uplift.
As a digression: a local radio station here run by volunteers was having a staff meeting one day recently. The manager said it was time that "there was less profanity in the office" Looking puzzled one of the young broadcasters said "What the F &@&'s profanity". Ah the addicayted young Scot ... and him a Unionist and all!

[Lykren]

It's not just Mr Trainspotting's characters who speak like that; he does himself. Low lives do.

Low lives? Really? I deem such classist terminology to be far more offensive than any f***ing or s***ting going on.

[ennison]

Feel free to be

[AuntShecky]

Low lives do.

You don't think the one percenters swear? Don't know about you, but I'm glad I'm not in one of their richly-appointed suites when they turn the air blue in their reaction to a raise in the tax on capital gains.

[kelby_lake]

Oh, everybody swears. To varying exents maybe but everybody does it.

[OscarWildebeest]

In 1967 William Eastlake's "Castle Keep" was published. Basically it's about a detachment of soldiers. What profanities said novel contains, wonderfully so! Eastlake, after the fact saying that each of those characters really existed, and in his novel they are speaking exactly like they did in real life. Highly acclaimed this novel was and is, the first one passing the censors containing such an abundance of profanities!

Upon reading said novel it is clear that without the profanities this book would have been an abject failure as it would have greatly detracted from its ambience, intent, flow, and message.

Refusing to allow contexted profanity is to force your specific values onto others. But then, if this is the manner of this website's owner he is entitled to, for to say otherwise is to not adhere to Chomsky's perception that one must judge others according to the same values you apply when judging your own. None of us were forced to join, however, if it was clearly stated that not even contexted swearing or profanities were allowed I doubt if I for one would have joined.

[Whosis]

The f-word is a bit of a turning point in the novel The Catcher in the Rye by J. D. Salinger. It has a shocking factor and perspective by the protagonist, who feels ashamed. It's fairly anti-climactic in recent mainstream novel, which rely on its effect to entice readers. John Steinbeck's editor had him omit much profanity in his novel The Grapes of Wrath, even though he found it prevalent in the world he observed. That is a truth to be ashamed of, that many people would want to read a novel (say by Stephen King) because it is full of profanity, which they relate to. I think that recent literature can still maintain class while avoiding profanity, but less authors may be choosing to do so.

[Matthew Brown]

I'm almost never bothered by profanity in literature or film. In all fairness, I was raised in Kansas in the company of hardcore oil fielders. I'm just hard to offend. Then again, It's hard to offend me with much of anything. I can lose interest in anything that's written poorly, but I can't remember ever thinking that it would have been okay if only the language had been nicer.

As a writer, I use profanity fairly frequently, but only for some characters. Some curse regularly, some rarely, and some never. As far as I'm concerned, it's as much a part of a character's particular dialogue as their accent is. I'll never think about whether or not it's necessary, or whether or not I'm using it properly.

On the other hand, it's been mentioned that profanity can be used simply for shock effect. That's something I'll never do. When I see the use of any shocking material used simply for the shock, I am offended. Not because I can't handle it, or even that it just bothers me. I'm offended in a case like that because it's condescending to the audience.

[Hwo Thumb]

I hate profanity in literature when it strikes me as unnecessary. Like, just dropping an F bomb because you can is usually the mark of someone who can't find a more creative way to express things.

I'm writing a pretty gritty post-apoc piece for something, and I'm still shying away from worse swear words. D*** and Sh** are okay when used sparingly, but I don't like when authors throw profanities into their character's mouths just for the f***ing hell of it. It makes me feel like the characters are crude and obnoxious, like a couple of high-schoolers who think swearing makes them manlier.

Although it's not really a literary example, Memento is a good example. Holy f***ing jesus christ, how many f***ing times can you throw a f***ing f-bomb into a f***ing casual conversation before your f***ing movie dialogue is just swears? I love that movie, but the swearing bugged me.

[noseyparkerunit]

I hate profanity in literature when it strikes me as unnecessary. Like, just dropping an F bomb because you can is usually the mark of someone who can't find a more creative way to express things.

I'm writing a pretty gritty post-apoc piece for something, and I'm still shying away from worse swear words. D*** and Sh** are okay when used sparingly, but I don't like when authors throw profanities into their character's mouths just for the f***ing hell of it. It makes me feel like the characters are crude and obnoxious, like a couple of high-schoolers who think swearing makes them manlier.

Although it's not really a literary example, Memento is a good example. Holy f***ing jesus christ, how many f***ing times can you throw a f***ing f-bomb into a f***ing casual conversation before your f***ing movie dialogue is just swears? I love that movie, but the swearing bugged me.

And WHO is to judge when it is unnecessary? Who is to be the ultimate arbiter? Henry Millers works were banned as obscene in the United States until 1959. Reading them now is just such a benign experience. One realizes they have nothing at all to do with sex, in fact, sex is not even close to the subject at hand, although Miller does discuss sex. One must read Orwell's essay "Inside the Whale" to truly get an appreciation of the changing nature of what words are appropriate. Even Orwell feels compelled to express his disgust at the few "dirty" words in the book, yet in the end, he declares " Here in my opinion is the only imaginative prose-writer of the slightest value who has appeared among the English-speaking races for some years past. Even if that is objected to as an overstatement, it will probably be admitted that Miller is a writer out of the ordinary, worth more than a single glance; and after all, he is a completely negative, unconstructive, amoral writer, a mere Jonah, a passive acceptor of evil, a sort of Whitman among the corpses. Symptomatically, that is more significant than the mere fact that five thousand novels are published in England every year and four thousand nine hundred of them are tripe. It is a demonstration of the impossibility of any major literature until the world has shaken itself into its new shape."

Please go thee to a Chaucer! Shakespeare demands it!

[chevalierdelame]

Context is everything. Personally I don't have a problem with it. If an author (or musician or artist) is simply trying to shock, well, then it can be irritating and even a little pathetic (like an adolescent showing off to his friends). Here in the UK there are loads of hip young artists centred on London who are always in the news because they have produced some (yawn) 'outrageous' work of art that they seem to think 'is gonna shock the squares'. In fact, this particular square is always just bored. But I have read books that disturbed me and that I felt were an evil influence, books that I wish weren't out there in the world- but never because they used 4 letter words. What is the worst that can happen? Someone starts swearing a bit more?! It is when a work of art glorifies and encourages violence, cruelty, rape etc that I feel uneasy. Take a novel like Lady Chatterley's Lover. There were attempts to have this banned because Lawrence used sexually explicit language. The male lover talks about the woman '****ting' and uses the words '****' and '****'. But this is within a loving, tender, mutually respectful relationship. I doubt anyone has ever been influenced to behave worse after reading the novel. Whereas there is a Bukowski novel in which he boasts about rape. He doesn't use any explicit language, yet I find that far, far more disturbing than the Lawrence passages. Or take Fanny Hill. I have always disliked that novel intensely. Essentially it is the story of a very young girl (14 or 15) whose parents die and who is tricked into prostitution. She doesn't choose the life from a position of strength and independence. People take advantage of her vulnerable position and the author simply accepts this as perfectly normal. Again, there is very little 'dirty' or crude language in the novel but, if I got my kicks from abusing vulnerable girls, I'd take this novel as a green light.

I think WICKES got it right. It isn't exactly the number of swear words that matter. Profanity in literature (or in any other form of art) is harmful when it accepts what is wrong as right or normal. Take De Sade's "Juliette, or Vice Amply Rewarded" and "Justine; or Good Conduct Well-Chastised". Perhaps it is considered as great literature. But I find its acceptance of vice and violence more disgusting than its crude and explicit scenes.

[MANICHAEAN]

Even if "low lives" had the inclination to use on Lit Net Forums, "Anglo Saxon" four letter words that invariably began with the earlier letters of the English language, the computer would arrest their inclusion.

Try writing, "Being a nice day he decided to take his black ***** for a walk," or " He rode into Jeresulem on his ***."

[Vladimir777]

It amazes me that so many people on this board have a problem with swearing. Does nobody else swear constantly, or at least hear it constantly, in their everyday life? Who cares?! This seems like a very uptight group on here.

I can't imagine even thinking about reading "****" or "****" or whatever else when reading a book. That's just how people talk. Not using those words does NOT make you a superior person to those who do, no matter how much you'd like to think so. In fact, I tend not to trust people who don't swear. I know lots of other people like me. There's something...weird about a young person who doesn't even cuss.

[Vladimir777]

Low lives? Really? I deem such classist terminology to be far more offensive than any f***ing or s***ting going on.

For sure. Again, as I said in my previous post, anyone who is that intimidated by four-letter words or their equivalents comes across as very judgmental and close-minded, which to me is the complete opposite of great literature/art

[Vladimir777]

Even if "low lives" had the inclination to use on Lit Net Forums, "Anglo Saxon" four letter words that invariably began with the earlier letters of the English language, the computer would arrest their inclusion.

Try writing, "Being a nice day he decided to take his black ***** for a walk," or " He rode into Jeresulem on his ***."

Yeah, what a pain in the ***. I hate message boards that censor words. Rotten Tomatoes is the same way for me, and I frequently visit there. Some people go through the extra pain of slightly mistyping or formatting the swear words so that they do show up, but that seems like a lot of effort just to make a word show up.

I still can't get over those who say that people are "lowlifes" if they say certain words. What ****ing century do we live in?! I really can't believe some of the stuff that bothers LitNetters. Would Shakespeare or Dante not be great authors if they were throwing F-bombs around in their works? Of course they would be! People from less money as ourselves or *GASP!* drug addicts aren't inferior to others...shocking, I know.

[Iain Sparrow]

It amazes me that so many people on this board have a problem with swearing. Does nobody else swear constantly, or at least hear it constantly, in their everyday life? Who cares?! This seems like a very uptight group on here.

I can't imagine even thinking about reading "****" or "****" or whatever else when reading a book. That's just how people talk. Not using those words does NOT make you a superior person to those who do, no matter how much you'd like to think so. In fact, I tend not to trust people who don't swear. I know lots of other people like me. There's something...weird about a young person who doesn't even cuss.


I agree completely... or I ****ing completely agree with you.

It certainly doesn't bother me in literature, nor in real life.
Sure, there's more appropriate times and less appropriate times for it, but either way I don't make too many character assessments based on someone cursing.

[JanVanHogspeuw]

And WHO is to judge when it is unnecessary? Who is to be the ultimate arbiter?

Who needs an ultimate arbiter? We can all make our own judgements. I swear a lot in my life, but I agree with who you were replying to that in literature a lot of the time it seems unnecessary, though I might rather say that it seems forced. Sure, people can swear a lot and not give it a second thought, but we're talking about literature here, where writers tend to give their work a lot more than a second thought as they write it, and so when I'm reading a piece of considered prose it becomes a lot easier to see the odd bit of profanity as just being there for effect.

[Vladimir777]

I agree completely... or I ****ing completely agree with you.

It certainly doesn't bother me in literature, nor in real life.
Sure, there's more appropriate times and less appropriate times for it, but either way I don't make too many character assessments based on someone cursing.

:cheers2:

Glad to hear that someone else agrees. I think cursing may be more of a...faux pas for older people? I'm not sure. As someone on the first page (the OP?) mentioned, they remember when "Working-Class Hero" by John Lennon came out, implying they are at least in their 40s. Great song by the way (great album, in fact). So perhaps the younger you are, the less you mind it? Certainly, we are more and more surrounded by obscenity when it comes to mainstream media than ever before.

In my opinion, within a generation or two, censorship over language will be completely eliminated from things like TV or the radio. It's getting close to it right now. I always felt like the US was behind other countries in terms of its fear of bad language and sex (oooooo, such bad things!!!), perhaps because of our Puritan roots, but I'm not actually sure if this is the case with bad language the same way it is with sex portrayals (in which we are notably very prude).

[Hwo Thumb]

It's kind of odd how Vlad seems genuinely upset at the idea of someone being annoyed by excessive swearing. Close minded and judgmental? Is it a problem that I feel uncomfortable about saying "****?" The way I see it, swears are in literature for a reason; Expression. If you overuse them, then they lose their power, and then they just fall flat. I'm okay with tossing in profanity when the situation desires, but why should it come up in casual conversation? Like JanVanHogspeuw said, writing is considered, pre-planned. Swearing is not spontaneous in literature, so if it isn't serving a purpose, it shouldn't be there.

Someone posed the argument that "real people swear," but that just depends on the people you surround yourself with.

[Vladimir777]

It's kind of odd how Vlad seems genuinely upset at the idea of someone being annoyed by excessive swearing. Close minded and judgmental? Is it a problem that I feel uncomfortable about saying "****?" The way I see it, swears are in literature for a reason; Expression. If you overuse them, then they lose their power, and then they just fall flat. I'm okay with tossing in profanity when the situation desires, but why should it come up in casual conversation? Like JanVanHogspeuw said, writing is considered, pre-planned. Swearing is not spontaneous in literature, so if it isn't serving a purpose, it shouldn't be there.

Someone posed the argument that "real people swear," but that just depends on the people you surround yourself with.

You're probably right that I was being a big judgmental and close-minded with my initial flurry of posts.

I do agree that swearing in novels that are in the actual descriptions, as opposed to just coming from, say, a character's speech or the narrator's "voice," seems weird, since you're right that swearing is usually an off-the-cuff, emotionally-invested expression of some sort, whereas writing is "considered, pre-planned," as you put it.

[Hwo Thumb]

You're probably right that I was being a big judgmental and close-minded with my initial flurry of posts.

I do agree that swearing in novels that are in the actual descriptions, as opposed to just coming from, say, a character's speech or the narrator's "voice," seems weird, since you're right that swearing is usually an off-the-cuff, emotionally-invested expression of some sort, whereas writing is "considered, pre-planned," as you put it.

See, I don't think it's just about descriptions, though. Like I said, it kind of bugs me when characters will be talking casually and just randomly swear. I mean, maybe an author is just trying to create a more "real" character, but in my experience, the people who will use "****" as a flavor word to toss in for lack of a better way to describe their feelings also tend to be the type of people I don't like to be around.

[Vladimir777]

See, I don't think it's just about descriptions, though. Like I said, it kind of bugs me when characters will be talking casually and just randomly swear. I mean, maybe an author is just trying to create a more "real" character, but in my experience, the people who will use "****" as a flavor word to toss in for lack of a better way to describe their feelings also tend to be the type of people I don't like to be around.

To be fair, I bet you read a lot of books that involve people you wouldn't like to be around.

To each his own, though.